Lazy vs Crazy
Member
http://www.twitch.tv/8wayrun
Break is Marvel this week. Chris G v Quotes up now.
Marlin and CJ in the building as well.
Break is Marvel this week. Chris G v Quotes up now.
Marlin and CJ in the building as well.
Marvel vs Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds |OT3| Self-Control Support Group
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
- Start date
Chris G at the Break? Awesome.
I think I might have played this guy once when I first became a Fourth Lord. I remember playing a really high ranked guy with that team, and I remember getting absolutely styled on by an Akuma with the ground-bounce palm as a starter, and then getting airlooped mid-screen. Was pretty crazy.Tobe1 said:
Next time we play, I'll try to bring out my Dante/Viper style combo just for you.SolarPowered said:
Face it Tiger..
Banned
double dose of mahvel tonight, the break and this other stream.
I run the other stream in the bg, just for support and I think they usually stream mahvel for quite a long time..
I run the other stream in the bg, just for support and I think they usually stream mahvel for quite a long time..
To add to the stream overload: Frame Trap is live.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
SolarPowered said:
I agree with this. Everybody should read up more on the frame data (including me, haha).
A lot of stuff gets wrongly pushed blocked, or not punished correctly on block. I know I am leaving damage on the table when blocking stuff because I am too lazy to read or research this stuff. I currently just go off ranked match experience on what is safe, which is probably bad.
I think that will all come in time for everybody though as the game gets older, or after UMVC3:AE, heh.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
I feel like MarlinPie and Chris G are actually just playing until someone tells them to stop.
SolarPowered
Member
Yeah, but it only happens when I get styled on and this doesn't happen too often with Gaffers.Tobe1 said:im pretty sure you do
You can try.Frantic said:Next time we play, I'll try to bring out my Dante/Viper style combo just for you.
Top 5 Most Underrated/Slept on characters for UMVC3 (cause I like lists and discussion on them):
Not in any order and will probably change once the Capcom changelog is released.
1) Captain America: The sleeper character of MVC3 that is about to finally awake. Ok so I throw out tons of tier lists and stuff without much explanation on particular characters (even for me that's a lot to get off my chest). I think I listed Captain America as Low Mid or Mid tier. Fact of the matter is that Captain America is a much more match up dependent character that others. Certain characters he blows up for free, others blow him up. Again zoning specialists it's easy mode for Captain America and he's a legitimate tank as not only does he have good health he does above average damage (combos are a bit execution heavy), has some great normals, one excellent but underrated assist and plus he is able to convert combos from a distance many characters can't. You haven't experienced MVC3 until you have been TOD'd by a Captain America player from a stray Shield Slash that you never thought would convert into a kill.
His weaknesses were still many in MVC3. No comboability off of air throws solo meaning his general throw game was ass. No reliable/easy way of finishing an air combo with a hyper without using extended and difficult shield slash combos. Recovery on shield slash meaning he had to space himself properly or he gets blown up. No air mobility made his approaches predictable. Cartwheel was ass outside of close range cross ups using assists (although effective and his only real way to mix up opponents).
90%+ of those problems are essentially fixed. Captain America now has easy mode combos if he wants to fall back on that gives him options in the corner (Captain was ass in the corner) thanks to his new OTG. It allows him to finish combos after a standard air combo and MOST PROBABLY allows him to do substantial damage off of an air throw (even if it's just OTG Shield Slash into HCS that's still around 350K damage that he didn't have before). Better recovery on Shield slash means his slash spamming is safer and he has an easier time hit confirming into a combo for longer spacing. Double jump means he has better combos, better mobility and better mix ups (double overhead fuzzy guard with air d+H should be possible for Captain America). Soft knockdown on his Charging Star is HUGE as it amplifies his zoning shutdown even more AND this means his Charging Star assist is hella buff too as it's basically an old Akuma Tatsu now (blows through projectiles with priority and causes soft knockdown for easy hit confirms). Invincible cartwheel is NO SHIT SHERLOCK good... that's an S tier tool. Captain America is basically the ultimate fuck you to zoning characters now and if zoning is going to be more viable expect to see more Captain America's around. I personally can't wait to try Captain America in UMVC3, I already have stuff planned for him on the side.
In a game where DHC glitch is removed, HSD upped for many characters reducing overall damage output, lowered meter gain and X Factor is nerfed... you are going to feel good with a tanky character like Captain America on your team. I say the same for She Hulk.
2) Haggar: People are too quick to write off Haggar now based on a couple nerfs to his BROKEN ASS assist. Granted he is still largely not that great as a point character but he is going to get some buffs (not substantial but some) and his OTG could give him options after throws or stray Lariats. But let's get back to his assist... yes it's vulnerable for a whole 2 frames now as he's coming in and yes it doesn't cause a hard knockdown now... doesn't mean that the assist is ASS nor does it mean that Haggar himself is ass.
2 frames of vulnerability means it's not a brainless GTFO assist anymore. It will still beat out 90% of the stuff that people throw at it but it's not going to just go through a beam hyper or EXTREMELY TIGHT rushdown. You gotta think before you press that button. No hard knockdown basically means you don't have a day to hit confirm into a combo. This is pretty much a nerf to other characters rather than Haggar IMO. Characters like Doom, Wesker and Dante went on auto pilot mode with this shit where as others had to catch the character before they hit the floor. Now it's equalized but since it's soft knockdown meaning you still have enough time to pick up characters after a Haggar hit. Haggar is still going to be excellent for corner resets and still extremely useful for shutting down teleports which you guys are going to see a lot of.
Once people realize that zoning isn't easy mode in UMVC3 and they get pummeled down by endless teleport rushdown.. they are going to want a GTFO assist and right now Haggar is still looking like an S tier assist to have on your team. At the very least I know as a teleport character player, I am going to have to think when I go for resets against a team of character which has Haggar on their team. You CANNOT sleep on the nerfed Lariat. It merely went from BROKEN BEST ASSIST IN GAME to STILL ONE OF THE BEST ASSISTS in the game.
3) Akuma & Wolverine: OK I sort of cheated with this but I feel that both have the same problems facing them as far as people just simply writing them off. Nerfs are relative and a nerf on a S tier character that maybe brutal for a mid tier character wouldn't be that big of a deal for a top tier. People get too over dramatic over nerfs these days and forget what the character was still good at and just concentrate on the nerfs. Wolverine is still fucking good, as in you cannot sleep on this character at all. He still has brain dead easy combos that do tons of damage, he is still extremely fast with the capability to get even faster, has invisible mix ups against in coming characters, great priority on normals, still has a dive kick and still has an excellent air throw game. OMG he can't easy mode go through beams by doing a reverse fireball motion so he is going to be free to zoning... no he's not. Wolverine has options to close in the distance and in a game where so many system changes only tweaked XF really changes Wolverine (because he can't 2 for 1 characters anymore).. the rest actually benefits Wolverine in the meta. He is pretty much unaffected by HSD changes because his combos are simple, DHC glitch never really mattered to Wolverine even though he abused it and execution/health/damage attributes are still in his favor. Derperine is here to stay.
And so is his best friend. Losing soft knockdown on Tatsu assist is pretty big and affects characters ability to get a hit confirm off of a stray Tatsu. Doesn't change the fact the assist still comes out fairly fast, with great priority and nullifies projectile or sets up excellent mix ups to open up characters (or as I like to call it the "blender). On point Akuma actually is IMPROVED IMO... with better aerial options and mix ups (overhead dive kick anyone?). I will gladly take 50K health reduction for more tools at my disposal. Still a great comeback character with tons of damage on BnB combos, still has fast start up beam hyper and high priority Tatsu and still has a great assist for numerous teams to use. Akuma and his great assist aren't going anywhere and in fact.. Wolverine + Akuma will still be a go to team pairing that many people will continue to use because it's still highly effective.
4) Viewtiful Joe: I probably touched upon this before but apparently the word didn't spread on this guy. Joe was... one of the underrated characters in vanilla. He had a lot of good tools at his disposal but a weird play style, execution level, no OTG/air throw game and low damage output held him back a lot (does this sound familiar? It should). Some of this is changed and until the final changelog is reveal on Joe it's hard to comment on him because a lot of stuff on him is merely suspected not confirmed.
What I know for a fact is that having a move that gives Joe i-frames that can be cancelled into a special which starts combos for him... is HUGE. It's one of those S tier tools that I am talking about. You can't mindlessly rushdown Joe in fact you can't even do it with a high priority assist because it can get you blown up HARD (like happy birthday'd even though you performed your tight rushdown properly). If he misses it he can just do Voomerang which may have gotten a damage buff as well. This pretty much makes a hard to hit character even harder to touch.
There is also murmurs of damage buff on Joe overall which I personally some what believe (it appears to me that his specials are buffed in damage and most of his combos use a lot of special attacks). Fact of the matter is that he should end characters in 2 combos with his BnB and having the ability to set up a guaranteed mix up on a character is also very significant (and if he fails the mix up the character is still slowed down). There is also rumors of his Bomb now exploding on contact giving him a possible reliable OTG now... if Joe does in fact get some way to reliably OTG that will up his overall tremendously (throw game buffed, combos buffed, options buffed).
Yeah he still has stubby normals but he can go toe to toe with the best of them thanks to his Slow Dodge into Groovy Uppercut tech. I know people are going to sleep on Joe anyway because he's Joe... but I pray people would not.
5) Dante: Currently known as the "second son of Sparda" thanks to his elder brother stealing the spotlight as the hot new cool kid at school. Overall nerfs to Dante aren't helping things either and by the time the changelog is revealed I expect more nerfs discovered on Dante. Most of the system changes also affect Dante greatly including DHC glitch removal, lowered meter gain, XF tweaking and HSD changes. Basically everything that could be abused in vanilla MVC3... Dante pretty much abused it.
And guess what... not even Capcom knows how to nerf this character as hard as they try. This isn't because they love the fuck out of the character and the series (they do but that's aside the point) it's that they fucked themselves up when they gave Dante a metric ton of tools at his disposal. Widely known at "Ace Hardware Dante" or "Swiss Army Knife" or "He only does everything"... that part of Dante is still unchanged. He still has absurd frame traps at mid range, he still has great ranged normals (nerfed a bit in the anti-air department), great combos/damage, a tracking teleport that sets up dirty mix ups with a blender assist, excellent space control, excellent chip damage game, still has one of the few invincible specials in the game (Vortex), full screen AG immune beam, a mode that heals him and give XF likes boost, full vertical reach specials, multiple OTG moves, dirty cross ups (the "Ryan Hunter" ain't going nowhere ladies and gentlemen), projectiles for zoning and a near full screen poke... plus about a dozen other things that I didn't mention in this paragraph.
Fact of the matter is that other characters still cry for half as many tools as Dante. He is still unexplored and more WILL be discovered on him that Capcom hasn't found yet. Let's not forget his couple buffs like easier to execute moves and better mobility in DT mode. The barrier of entry has been lowered on him which means more people playing him and potentially more technology on him is found. At the end of the day when things have settled... people will realize why Dante is the main lead of Devil May Cry and not Vergil. The "new" king of Marvel sway is FOR FUCKING SURE ain't going NO WHERE.
Not in any order and will probably change once the Capcom changelog is released.
1) Captain America: The sleeper character of MVC3 that is about to finally awake. Ok so I throw out tons of tier lists and stuff without much explanation on particular characters (even for me that's a lot to get off my chest). I think I listed Captain America as Low Mid or Mid tier. Fact of the matter is that Captain America is a much more match up dependent character that others. Certain characters he blows up for free, others blow him up. Again zoning specialists it's easy mode for Captain America and he's a legitimate tank as not only does he have good health he does above average damage (combos are a bit execution heavy), has some great normals, one excellent but underrated assist and plus he is able to convert combos from a distance many characters can't. You haven't experienced MVC3 until you have been TOD'd by a Captain America player from a stray Shield Slash that you never thought would convert into a kill.
His weaknesses were still many in MVC3. No comboability off of air throws solo meaning his general throw game was ass. No reliable/easy way of finishing an air combo with a hyper without using extended and difficult shield slash combos. Recovery on shield slash meaning he had to space himself properly or he gets blown up. No air mobility made his approaches predictable. Cartwheel was ass outside of close range cross ups using assists (although effective and his only real way to mix up opponents).
90%+ of those problems are essentially fixed. Captain America now has easy mode combos if he wants to fall back on that gives him options in the corner (Captain was ass in the corner) thanks to his new OTG. It allows him to finish combos after a standard air combo and MOST PROBABLY allows him to do substantial damage off of an air throw (even if it's just OTG Shield Slash into HCS that's still around 350K damage that he didn't have before). Better recovery on Shield slash means his slash spamming is safer and he has an easier time hit confirming into a combo for longer spacing. Double jump means he has better combos, better mobility and better mix ups (double overhead fuzzy guard with air d+H should be possible for Captain America). Soft knockdown on his Charging Star is HUGE as it amplifies his zoning shutdown even more AND this means his Charging Star assist is hella buff too as it's basically an old Akuma Tatsu now (blows through projectiles with priority and causes soft knockdown for easy hit confirms). Invincible cartwheel is NO SHIT SHERLOCK good... that's an S tier tool. Captain America is basically the ultimate fuck you to zoning characters now and if zoning is going to be more viable expect to see more Captain America's around. I personally can't wait to try Captain America in UMVC3, I already have stuff planned for him on the side.
In a game where DHC glitch is removed, HSD upped for many characters reducing overall damage output, lowered meter gain and X Factor is nerfed... you are going to feel good with a tanky character like Captain America on your team. I say the same for She Hulk.
2) Haggar: People are too quick to write off Haggar now based on a couple nerfs to his BROKEN ASS assist. Granted he is still largely not that great as a point character but he is going to get some buffs (not substantial but some) and his OTG could give him options after throws or stray Lariats. But let's get back to his assist... yes it's vulnerable for a whole 2 frames now as he's coming in and yes it doesn't cause a hard knockdown now... doesn't mean that the assist is ASS nor does it mean that Haggar himself is ass.
2 frames of vulnerability means it's not a brainless GTFO assist anymore. It will still beat out 90% of the stuff that people throw at it but it's not going to just go through a beam hyper or EXTREMELY TIGHT rushdown. You gotta think before you press that button. No hard knockdown basically means you don't have a day to hit confirm into a combo. This is pretty much a nerf to other characters rather than Haggar IMO. Characters like Doom, Wesker and Dante went on auto pilot mode with this shit where as others had to catch the character before they hit the floor. Now it's equalized but since it's soft knockdown meaning you still have enough time to pick up characters after a Haggar hit. Haggar is still going to be excellent for corner resets and still extremely useful for shutting down teleports which you guys are going to see a lot of.
Once people realize that zoning isn't easy mode in UMVC3 and they get pummeled down by endless teleport rushdown.. they are going to want a GTFO assist and right now Haggar is still looking like an S tier assist to have on your team. At the very least I know as a teleport character player, I am going to have to think when I go for resets against a team of character which has Haggar on their team. You CANNOT sleep on the nerfed Lariat. It merely went from BROKEN BEST ASSIST IN GAME to STILL ONE OF THE BEST ASSISTS in the game.
3) Akuma & Wolverine: OK I sort of cheated with this but I feel that both have the same problems facing them as far as people just simply writing them off. Nerfs are relative and a nerf on a S tier character that maybe brutal for a mid tier character wouldn't be that big of a deal for a top tier. People get too over dramatic over nerfs these days and forget what the character was still good at and just concentrate on the nerfs. Wolverine is still fucking good, as in you cannot sleep on this character at all. He still has brain dead easy combos that do tons of damage, he is still extremely fast with the capability to get even faster, has invisible mix ups against in coming characters, great priority on normals, still has a dive kick and still has an excellent air throw game. OMG he can't easy mode go through beams by doing a reverse fireball motion so he is going to be free to zoning... no he's not. Wolverine has options to close in the distance and in a game where so many system changes only tweaked XF really changes Wolverine (because he can't 2 for 1 characters anymore).. the rest actually benefits Wolverine in the meta. He is pretty much unaffected by HSD changes because his combos are simple, DHC glitch never really mattered to Wolverine even though he abused it and execution/health/damage attributes are still in his favor. Derperine is here to stay.
And so is his best friend. Losing soft knockdown on Tatsu assist is pretty big and affects characters ability to get a hit confirm off of a stray Tatsu. Doesn't change the fact the assist still comes out fairly fast, with great priority and nullifies projectile or sets up excellent mix ups to open up characters (or as I like to call it the "blender). On point Akuma actually is IMPROVED IMO... with better aerial options and mix ups (overhead dive kick anyone?). I will gladly take 50K health reduction for more tools at my disposal. Still a great comeback character with tons of damage on BnB combos, still has fast start up beam hyper and high priority Tatsu and still has a great assist for numerous teams to use. Akuma and his great assist aren't going anywhere and in fact.. Wolverine + Akuma will still be a go to team pairing that many people will continue to use because it's still highly effective.
4) Viewtiful Joe: I probably touched upon this before but apparently the word didn't spread on this guy. Joe was... one of the underrated characters in vanilla. He had a lot of good tools at his disposal but a weird play style, execution level, no OTG/air throw game and low damage output held him back a lot (does this sound familiar? It should). Some of this is changed and until the final changelog is reveal on Joe it's hard to comment on him because a lot of stuff on him is merely suspected not confirmed.
What I know for a fact is that having a move that gives Joe i-frames that can be cancelled into a special which starts combos for him... is HUGE. It's one of those S tier tools that I am talking about. You can't mindlessly rushdown Joe in fact you can't even do it with a high priority assist because it can get you blown up HARD (like happy birthday'd even though you performed your tight rushdown properly). If he misses it he can just do Voomerang which may have gotten a damage buff as well. This pretty much makes a hard to hit character even harder to touch.
There is also murmurs of damage buff on Joe overall which I personally some what believe (it appears to me that his specials are buffed in damage and most of his combos use a lot of special attacks). Fact of the matter is that he should end characters in 2 combos with his BnB and having the ability to set up a guaranteed mix up on a character is also very significant (and if he fails the mix up the character is still slowed down). There is also rumors of his Bomb now exploding on contact giving him a possible reliable OTG now... if Joe does in fact get some way to reliably OTG that will up his overall tremendously (throw game buffed, combos buffed, options buffed).
Yeah he still has stubby normals but he can go toe to toe with the best of them thanks to his Slow Dodge into Groovy Uppercut tech. I know people are going to sleep on Joe anyway because he's Joe... but I pray people would not.
5) Dante: Currently known as the "second son of Sparda" thanks to his elder brother stealing the spotlight as the hot new cool kid at school. Overall nerfs to Dante aren't helping things either and by the time the changelog is revealed I expect more nerfs discovered on Dante. Most of the system changes also affect Dante greatly including DHC glitch removal, lowered meter gain, XF tweaking and HSD changes. Basically everything that could be abused in vanilla MVC3... Dante pretty much abused it.
And guess what... not even Capcom knows how to nerf this character as hard as they try. This isn't because they love the fuck out of the character and the series (they do but that's aside the point) it's that they fucked themselves up when they gave Dante a metric ton of tools at his disposal. Widely known at "Ace Hardware Dante" or "Swiss Army Knife" or "He only does everything"... that part of Dante is still unchanged. He still has absurd frame traps at mid range, he still has great ranged normals (nerfed a bit in the anti-air department), great combos/damage, a tracking teleport that sets up dirty mix ups with a blender assist, excellent space control, excellent chip damage game, still has one of the few invincible specials in the game (Vortex), full screen AG immune beam, a mode that heals him and give XF likes boost, full vertical reach specials, multiple OTG moves, dirty cross ups (the "Ryan Hunter" ain't going nowhere ladies and gentlemen), projectiles for zoning and a near full screen poke... plus about a dozen other things that I didn't mention in this paragraph.
Fact of the matter is that other characters still cry for half as many tools as Dante. He is still unexplored and more WILL be discovered on him that Capcom hasn't found yet. Let's not forget his couple buffs like easier to execute moves and better mobility in DT mode. The barrier of entry has been lowered on him which means more people playing him and potentially more technology on him is found. At the end of the day when things have settled... people will realize why Dante is the main lead of Devil May Cry and not Vergil. The "new" king of Marvel sway is FOR FUCKING SURE ain't going NO WHERE.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Captain America is so free to hyper grav it's not even funny.
I don't think anyone's sleeping on Akuma and Dante...
I don't think anyone's sleeping on Akuma and Dante...
People ARE sleeping on Dante and Akuma, like you don't see mention of Dante and Akuma in any list for UMVC3 of characters to watch out. Just very off radar right now especially BFFs. I still see Dante as top tier in UMVC3 yet people still talk about Doom, Viper, Zero plus the newer cast.
Also Phoenix (Jean) but I think after the tournament people realized that she isn't nerfed to shit or something and have reawakened on her.
Captain America is going to own Magneto for FFFFFFFFRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE--- dom.
Also Phoenix (Jean) but I think after the tournament people realized that she isn't nerfed to shit or something and have reawakened on her.
Captain America is going to own Magneto for FFFFFFFFRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE--- dom.
SolarPowered
Member
Yeah, Cap is not going to be OP like some people have been saying, but he is definitely jumping up at least one tier and he has way more team flexibility than before. He is basically as good as a basic character can get right now imo.Dahbomb said:
Yep, people complain because they've actually got to put some thought into assist mash, but this is how he should have been from the start. I'm still annoyed that his entire game revolves around assists though. There is no excuse for that when there are so many strong point characters with great assists.Dahbomb said:
Akuma and Wolvie were definitely not nerfed that hard and people had better stay alert lest they get blown the hell up by the gruesome twosome.Dahbomb said:
lolDahbomb said:
Joe has nowhere to go, but up and that dodge is definitely a HIGH level tool that could change the flow of a game in an instant.Dahbomb said:
Other characters cry for 1/5th of the tools he has haha. If he is dropping from S tier it will only be a stone's throw away from the top and that doesn't even look likely.Dahbomb said:
I think Chun Li is going to be much better... but that's a straight up gut hunch than anything solid to go off of.
Chris I am 50/50 on. Like he's obviously buffed and IMO he was always like Ryu tier solid but he basically had 2 major weaknesses that aren't really changed in UMVC3 (free to anything coming above his head or behind and few ways to create space). Also Captain America > Chris.
50/50 on Skrull as well, he got buffed but some of his weaknesses remain although air Meteor Smash and air X factor are big for him. He can escape so much stuff with that he couldn't before.
Chris I am 50/50 on. Like he's obviously buffed and IMO he was always like Ryu tier solid but he basically had 2 major weaknesses that aren't really changed in UMVC3 (free to anything coming above his head or behind and few ways to create space). Also Captain America > Chris.
50/50 on Skrull as well, he got buffed but some of his weaknesses remain although air Meteor Smash and air X factor are big for him. He can escape so much stuff with that he couldn't before.
"God's Beard!"
Member
No, it's just that nobody is saying that Dante or Akuma are ass now. They are what they are, they aren't saying you'll need to watch out for them in Ultimate because everybody is ALREADY watching out for them. It just goes without saying. People talk about the others because they were buffed in interesting ways, whereas Dante and Akuma were slightly nerfed.Dahbomb said:
There is no way in hell the Captain is suddenly going to destroy Magneto. In zoning and rushdown, it's a bad match.
Magneto can't rushdown against Captain America. I mean he can but it's not favorable for him. Every time Magneto is going to dash in he is running the risk of eating a Charging Star (because he can't block during air dash and if he puts out a normal it will get beat out anyway) which is going to cause a soft knockdown and will allow Captain America to apply pressure. There are only so many Charging Stars Magneto can take due to him being lower health. There is also the threat of cartwheel through the rushdown plus assist call for a defensive cross up.
Zoning is a much more viable option for Magneto, in fact it is his preferred style against Captain America. Magneto's new Gravitation moves + assist is going to make it hard for Captain America... until he finds the proper cooldown time and comes charging in with Charging Star which isn't greatly affected by Gravitation moves. As seen in the UMVC3 tournament Magneto used the move, Captain America CS'd with little effect in distance traveled and got the hit on Magneto, ending him with HCS and a DHC.
Gravitation moves as of right now are more annoying than game changers (for characters like Haggar it is though). Magneto can't Disruptor spam Captain America anymore because invincible cartwheel plus better Charging Star plus slower Disruptor equals Magneto players less likely to spam the shit out of that move against good Captain America players. The next best option for Magneto is to jump up do Magnetic Blasts which while good puts Magneto in a vulnerable position to get air grabbed which now could leave to substantial damage from Captain America with his OTG Shield Slash.
I am not saying Captain America owns the match up "free"... that was just a pun. It's in fact still in Magneto's favor but it's way closer than it was before. The Magneto player has to play well and keep his zoning tight because any looseness in moves could be fatal. Captain America basically only has to make a couple reads on Magneto.
Zoning is a much more viable option for Magneto, in fact it is his preferred style against Captain America. Magneto's new Gravitation moves + assist is going to make it hard for Captain America... until he finds the proper cooldown time and comes charging in with Charging Star which isn't greatly affected by Gravitation moves. As seen in the UMVC3 tournament Magneto used the move, Captain America CS'd with little effect in distance traveled and got the hit on Magneto, ending him with HCS and a DHC.
Gravitation moves as of right now are more annoying than game changers (for characters like Haggar it is though). Magneto can't Disruptor spam Captain America anymore because invincible cartwheel plus better Charging Star plus slower Disruptor equals Magneto players less likely to spam the shit out of that move against good Captain America players. The next best option for Magneto is to jump up do Magnetic Blasts which while good puts Magneto in a vulnerable position to get air grabbed which now could leave to substantial damage from Captain America with his OTG Shield Slash.
I am not saying Captain America owns the match up "free"... that was just a pun. It's in fact still in Magneto's favor but it's way closer than it was before. The Magneto player has to play well and keep his zoning tight because any looseness in moves could be fatal. Captain America basically only has to make a couple reads on Magneto.
Prototype-03
Member
SmokeMaxX said:
Nah, he should be at LEAST upper tier. I THINK he can cancel a whiffed shield slash into hyper charging star, so even if Mag tries to zone, Cap should be able to hang with shield slashes and hyper cancels.
The main thing is that he's not as assist dependent anymore because of the OTG shield slash and actually becomes a viable assist with it. Also, invul frames in that dodge gives him headache inducing left/right mixups. I mean, X-23 is already a beast with it and it doesn't even have invul frames (although it is MUCH faster).
edit: people are sleeping on Arthur. With the air dashes nerfed, his zone is gonna be annoying as hell. Coupled with a full screen/vertical assist (ie: task, hawkeye, shuma), it'll be almost impossible to get in.
SolarPowered
Member
I could totally see him in low high tier with his buffs now.SmokeMaxX said:
Capcom nerfed air dashes for Arthur.Prototype-03 said:
/mind blown
Prototype-03
Member
SolarPowered said:
Hah. I already know how annoying it is even with air dashes. Just play Q... he'll make you rage.
Captain America isn't and won't be as good as people think come UMvC3. I'm willing to avatar bet anybody that most tier lists won't put him higher than upper mid tier (with a vast majority putting him at solid mid and a few maybe putting him at lower high).
His BEST offensive tool is air shield slash. Well guess what? It really hasn't been improved that much. Slightly better recovery? Okay, it had ass recovery to begin with. If someone isn't where they're "supposed to be" Captain America just lost half his life. I saw that zoners weren't going to run rampant because teleporters are in the game. What happens when you teleport with any character while Captain America is throwing a shield slash? He just got blown up. Whenever Captain America throws a shield slash, he's vulnerable. He can't hyper cancel into anything else to make himself safe (or even to DHC into someone safe!). Who else has this weakness? He has very little air control and his air throw game is weak. He relies on people being stupid. He's anti-zoning, but people don't have to try to zone him. His mixups are slow. How do you expect to ever land a hit on a good player that's used to blocking wolverine berzerker slashes and mags tri jumps? I'll give him the fact that he has high health and does great damage, but that's true in MvC3 too. He has above average health and does above average damage. He's still generally an unsafe character that doesn't have the mixups necessary to balance that out.
His BEST offensive tool is air shield slash. Well guess what? It really hasn't been improved that much. Slightly better recovery? Okay, it had ass recovery to begin with. If someone isn't where they're "supposed to be" Captain America just lost half his life. I saw that zoners weren't going to run rampant because teleporters are in the game. What happens when you teleport with any character while Captain America is throwing a shield slash? He just got blown up. Whenever Captain America throws a shield slash, he's vulnerable. He can't hyper cancel into anything else to make himself safe (or even to DHC into someone safe!). Who else has this weakness? He has very little air control and his air throw game is weak. He relies on people being stupid. He's anti-zoning, but people don't have to try to zone him. His mixups are slow. How do you expect to ever land a hit on a good player that's used to blocking wolverine berzerker slashes and mags tri jumps? I'll give him the fact that he has high health and does great damage, but that's true in MvC3 too. He has above average health and does above average damage. He's still generally an unsafe character that doesn't have the mixups necessary to balance that out.
I ran into an Arthur + Haggar duo yesterday, and I was playing characters with no airdashes or teleports... now THAT was just absolutely annoying. Getting up close without getting randomly hit by projectiles was a challenge in and of itself, but once I was up close I would get hit with the damn lariat and by then he would be half way across the screen to start anew. I can definitely see him being a good zoner in Ultimate when paired with the right assists.Prototype-03 said:
I also love how Gold Armor has 20 frames of Invulnerability. There are very few things that have enough active frames to go through that.
I am putting him in upper mid now and nothing higher than lower high either (way too safe of a bet for anyone to take up on it). But in UMVC3 being upper mid is going to mean a lot because that places you in like half of the roster which is VERY GOOD. Upper Mid means top 25 and if I list the characters who I think are top 25 you will know that Captain America is looking pretty.
All those faults of Captain America are pretty much true but at point he is going to have assists to deal with his bad match ups. His cartwheel and double jumps are going to be the source of his basic but still effective mix ups and air control.
As far as your point about Captain America throwing out a Shield Slash where it doesn't belong or being vulnerable during it... that applies to every character with a fireball or a beam. This is fighting game 101, you have to think about throwing your fireball before you do it. It's what zoning is about and Captain America is very decent at controlling the mid space already.
He is similar to Taskmaster and Ryu. He isn't the fastest, doesn't have the craziest mix ups, highest damage but he is still reliable at least now he is. The real decider for his tier listing is going to be his options after an air throw. It's enough to shift him 5 characters slots up or down.
You know he has an OTG move and an invincible cross up move to deal with that right?
Teleporters?
SolarPowered
Member
The tiers go more or less like this right now...
S-Top-pringles-stupid tier
A--fantastic-great-pretty well made-high tier
B-solid-fun-usable-mid tier
C-Lacking-useful under certain conditions-bottom mid tier
D-Garbage-unpopular-SFIV is that way-bottom tier
S tier used to have five characters, but it is already being expanded to eight around here. A tier will most definitely expand beyond ten or so characters as well. I wouldn't be surprised if S and A tier alone had 22-25 characters when it is all said and done. I think Cap could easily make the top twenty if people find new tech and setups with him.
S-Top-pringles-stupid tier
A--fantastic-great-pretty well made-high tier
B-solid-fun-usable-mid tier
C-Lacking-useful under certain conditions-bottom mid tier
D-Garbage-unpopular-SFIV is that way-bottom tier
S tier used to have five characters, but it is already being expanded to eight around here. A tier will most definitely expand beyond ten or so characters as well. I wouldn't be surprised if S and A tier alone had 22-25 characters when it is all said and done. I think Cap could easily make the top twenty if people find new tech and setups with him.
SureUltimoo said:
God I promised myself I will not make another list until the Capcom changelog is released...
Also MVC3 vanilla had more characters gravitated towards SAB than BCD. Tournament statistics sort of proved this as well. I expect the same and more gravitation towards SAB in UMVC3.
The S tier might narrow down if MVC3 was given a year. Oh and more S tiers mean more good than bad because 8 S tiers is better than 4 like MVC2.
Also MVC3 vanilla had more characters gravitated towards SAB than BCD. Tournament statistics sort of proved this as well. I expect the same and more gravitation towards SAB in UMVC3.
Trust me, I have had LONG debates over this so many times over if there even should be 8 characters in S /Top tier. But when you REALLY get down to the nitty gritty, among these 8 characters (talking strictly about vanilla here) there isn't huge gaps of differences in match winning potential. The only gap is between Phoenix and the next character... but Phoenix is ineffective without another S tier character with her.
The S tier might narrow down if MVC3 was given a year. Oh and more S tiers mean more good than bad because 8 S tiers is better than 4 like MVC2.
Agreed with Chun, Don't agree at all with Cap being better than Chris. And Chris' weakness is more his mobility, much like Arthur.Dahbomb said:
Of course I know, that's still spacing dependant. Do you really have time to Magic series, dash back and OTG Shield Slash. And 2, will the second hit even connect after the whole sequence? I really need time to experiment with it.Dahbomb said:
Dreams-Visions
Member
Hey guys, where can I find video of the Umvc3 event?
. Well, that and spurring arguments.It's very simple... it's because SF is a 1v1 game and MVC3 isn't. Certain match ups can be made better in certain character's favor. Like Wesker vs Zero plain match up... Zero has advantage. Wesker plus Tron... Wesker has advantage. Zero + Haggar... Zero has advantage. Wolverine by himself is great but with Akuma he is godlike. When you start bringing in pairs or even triplets it's impossible to put up a match up chart for that. Hell even tiering characters individually in MVC3 is tough and leads to month long debates.
Also XF and high overall game damage makes match ups hard to predict. Ryu technically is beat by Wesker but I have seen Ryu body Wesker a lot in tournament matches (especially if that Ryu is controlled by Chris G). She Hulk is beat by Zero but one air grab and Zero dies so more often then not you see She Hulk winning over Zero.
The game is also very unexplored and character picks/wins are based around low level execution at this point. Executions shouldn't matter in tiers but in the current Marvel meta game it does. For the longest of time Viper was like upper mid and only slowly made her way up when execution started to get better in the game.
Finally, tier lists are obscured as fuck in MVC3 when assists come into play. Haggar is not that great on point, hardly mid tier but his assist is best in the game and his worth on a team is as much as a high tier character. So where do you place him then? Very tricky. What about Akuma who is both good as point AND as an assist? Is he top tier? How do X Factor bonuses come into play?
I meant head to head. Cap has favorable match ups against purely zoning type characters. Of course that doesn't discount the fact that Chris might still end up being placed higher in tiers like it is in MVC3. Technically speaking Captain America SHOULD beat out Dormammu as Charging Star goes through everything of Dorm yet there is at least 2 tier differential between the two characters. Meta game plays a huge part as Captain America would only rank high in a zoning dominated meta game.
Also Chris may have a better ground dash in UMVC3 but don't quote me on that yet. It's still rumor mill.
Prototype-03
Member
Dahbomb said:
Give the game about 10 years, and the tier will be on teams, rather than individual characters.
Ahh that makes more sense in this case. I didn't read between the lines obviously about matchup specifics. I would still hold that Chris would beat out Cap in the matchup given they both had no assists. Although that might change in UMvC3.Dahbomb said:
Any Chris buffs would get me hype, the changelog had some pleasing info. Hopefully it's substantial. Max needs to show it off!
Dreams-Visions
Member
anyone?Dreams-Visions said:
Yeah Chris's ability to cancel normal gun shots into specials is legit. Gives him some really nice stuff like throw, d+H xx QCF+H wall bounce into combo. Also super jump up d+Hxx QCF+H.
Maybe but not even MVC2 had legit tiers based on teams. It was still top 4, the next 6 characters and the top assists. Basically if you made a combination of those 3 (preferrably 2 from top from assists) you would have a "competitive" team if the synergy was there. Of course match ups are much easier to rate when you have only a handful of teams to compare. Something like Wesker/Haggar/Phoenix obviously gets beat by Zero/Tron/Phoenix on a pure match up level.
What UMVC3 event? Need to be more specific.
Face it Tiger..
Banned
smurfx said:
What isn't welcome is mashing my controller for each and everyone of those hits.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Which Season's Beatings match had RayRay styling on Marlinpie with that extended Sent combo? They mentioned it in the most recent Why We Hate You and I was like "oh yeah that was awesome, I want to see that again."