Support NeoGAF

[foxtrot3d]

There are 400 some odd scripted shows to watch, I really don't care about the MCU to the point where I'd be compelled to what something I otherwise found mediocre, and there wasn't enough there to actually warrant me to watch it again unless I hear that somewhere down the line it gets FANTASTIC, which doesn't seem the case from reading this thread. I've also developed a pretty good sense of what I like and what I don't after wasting so much time watching so many hours of television that I can usually get a tonal gist from the pilot if there's a kernel of something interesting there.

I have a finite amount of hours until I die.

First, don't end so melodramatic. Second, you're right.

 

[Wag]

This is better than Daredevil but it's still not 100% what you'd expect, I think mostly because Daredevil was shot better despite the obvious grain.

I'll probably pass on the 4k then. I wish when they shoot this stuff for Netflix they take into account that people are actually watching it in 4k, especially if they're investing so much money into each episode.

 

[ivysaur12]

First, don't end so melodramatic. Second, you're right.

But it's true! If you watched a season of every single scripted series every day of 2015, you'd have like 75 shows left. There is no time. You gotta make cuts.

Nah, many of the greatest shows ever have extremely slow starts and awful pilots.

If anything, being involved in the industry should reinforce the knowledge that dropping a show most people like after one episode is silly at best. Particularly when the best element of the series is in the episode for about 10 seconds total.

It's like being a novelist and judging every book by it's actual cover.



That's fair enough. Certainly no compulsion to watch anything.

I just don't think anyone who only watches the pilot, of any show ever, has an actual read on it.

You can develop a pretty good tell on if there is a kernel of anything interesting within the pilot. Even some of the worst pilots for good shows that exist (like 30 Rock) have that. Also -- if the critical consensus turns and it turns out to be AMAZING!, then you circle back and see if there's something you missed, like a Happy Endings.

But more often then not (from my experience), it's generally sitcoms that have Bad Pilots -> Great Series versus most dramas.

 

[Jarmel]

Kilgrave is the star of the show and he's barely in the pilot. The show is a slow burn where as it goes along and shows how off the rails Kilgrave is and the consequences that stem from him, the better the show gets.

It's sort of like Hannibal in that the star is the villain.

 

[Cloyster]

Industry professionals are LESS likely to give shows they don't love right away a chance.

 

[ivysaur12]

Kilgrave is the star of the show and he's barely in the pilot. The show is a slow burn where as it goes along and shows how off the rails Kilgrave is and the consequences that stem from him, the better the show gets.

What if I really don't like David Tennant?

Also, wait, that was supposed to be anal in the pilot? Where was the lube?!

 

[Tragicomedy]

Going to avoid spoilers in here and just say WTF at the ending of the pilot. Started off a bit slow but hooked the hell out of me with that ending.

And Ivy, nothing but love when I say I've read your posts on TV GAF...you watch waaaaaay worse shows than this.

 

[ivysaur12]

And Ivy, nothing but love when I say I've read your posts on TV GAF...you watch waaaaaay worse shows than this.

NAME NAMES

Also, re: my frustrations: I really, really think Ritter is a good actress. I think Bitch in Apt 23 was such a perfect vehicle for her, that I'm sort of protective of her getting something I think is worthy of her talents.

 

[TDLink]

@Ivysaur, I definitely recommend at least giving it to episode 3 before you make a final decision (which I tend to do with any show I have remote interest in). No one has time to watch all the television out there, but this is at the very least in the upper echelon of stuff this year. And a "Noir" show is pretty rare to begin with.

 

[Sheroking]

I mean, if you don't like David Tennant, there's no talking to you.

@Ivysaur, I definitely recommend at least giving it to episode 3 before you make a final decision (which I tend to do with any show I have remote interest in). No one has time to watch all the television out there, but this is at the very least in the upper echelon of stuff this year.

Yeah, would definitely have a hard time picking 5 clearly better 2015 premieres out.

 

[Jarmel]

What if I really don't like David Tennant?

Also, wait, that was supposed to be anal in the pilot? Where was the lube?!

I don't watch Dr.Who but I think he's done a particularly good job especially near the point where I'm at (episode 7). He's super charismatic but unhinged at the same time and Tennant switches between those sides so fluidly.

 

[TDLink]

Yeah, would definitely have a hard time picking 5 clearly better shows out.

Well I mean if we're not limiting it to new shows there's like...Justified, The Americans, Better Call Saul, and Fargo. I also thought Mr. Robot was pretty good.

I've only seen 4 episodes of Jessica Jones so far though so I hesitate to rank it anywhere yet...but I could see it breaking into my personal top 5 for the year. I thought Daredevil's front end was much better than its back half, so there's always the chance this could drop off as well. But I feel like it's starting at a higher place.

 

[victreeb3l]

Man, Jameson Locke sure getting ass left and right on episode 1. That Spartan swag.

 

[ivysaur12]

Fine! I'll watch two more.

You're all obligated to watch any show, shitty or otherwise, I work on. Ha!

 

[Tragicomedy]

NAME NAMES

Also, re: my frustrations: I really, really think Ritter is a good actress. I think Bitch in Apt 23 was such a perfect vehicle for her, that I'm sort of protective of her getting something I think is worthy of her talents.

Well, you worked on one for starters...

Opinions and all that, but I'm loving the Netflix/Marvel collabs. And I am the guy who doesn't have time to watch a lot of TV, so I usually only keep up with two or three shows. I might be missing some brilliant stuff, but ain't nobody got time for that.

 

[ivysaur12]

Well, you worked on one for starters...

Just because you work at McDonalds doesn't mean you have to eat the food.

 

[Jarmel]

Just because you work at McDonalds doesn't mean you have to eat the food.

Employee discount?

 

[foxtrot3d]

Kilgrave is the star of the show and he's barely in the pilot. The show is a slow burn where as it goes along and shows how off the rails Kilgrave is and the consequences that stem from him, the better the show gets.

It's sort of like Hannibal in that the star is the villain.

Please do not compare this show to Hannibal or David Tennant to Mads Mikkelsen.

But it's true! If you watched a season of every single scripted series every day of 2015, you'd have like 75 shows left. There is no time. You gotta make cuts.

You can develop a pretty good tell on if there is a kernel of anything interesting within the pilot. Even some of the worst pilots for good shows that exist (like 30 Rock) have that. Also -- if the critical consensus turns and it turns out to be AMAZING!, then you circle back and see if there's something you missed, like a Happy Endings.

But more often then not (from my experience), it's generally sitcoms that have Bad Pilots -> Great Series versus most dramas.

Well, I actually find that I don't have enough shows to watch. IMO, I should have one good show to watch for every day of the week, alas I do not. But I do agree with most everything else you said. I'm not a guy to judge a show entirely on its pilot but even a bad pilot can tell me if the show will get better, there is always something in a "bad" pilot that makes me want to keep pushing through, a nugget of goodness. I don't think JJ ever really had that for me but I pushed myself to finish the show before judging it.

I'm a guy who quit watching Arrow the first time around after like two episodes but reluctantly went back in because of GAF and ended up loving it. Due to this fact I try to give most shows a good enough try before bailing if there is a good following. JJ never got good for me.

 

[golem]

I'll probably pass on the 4k then. I wish when they shoot this stuff for Netflix they take into account that people are actually watching it in 4k, especially if they're investing so much money into each episode.

Even at a high bitrate 4k isnt a huge leap over 1080p for most dramatic content. Netflix's compression doesnt do it any favors, but it looks decent nonetheless

 

[Sheroking]

Well I mean if we're not limiting it to new shows there's like...Justified, The Americans, Better Call Saul, and Fargo. I also thought Mr. Robot was pretty good.

I've only seen 4 episodes of Jessica Jones so far though so I hesitate to rank it anywhere yet...but I could see it breaking into my personal top 5 for the year. I thought Daredevil's front end was much better than its back half, so there's always the chance this could drop off as well. But I feel like it's starting at a higher place.

Well, yeah, clearly I could name 5 better shows in general which is why I edited the post to 2015 premieres.

 

[Cloyster]

Just because you work at McDonalds doesn't mean you have to eat the food.

But do you get to criticize someone's shit when you poop everyday? ;p

 

[Jarmel]

Please do not compare this show to Hannibal or David Tennant to Mads Mikkelsen.

They're clearly going for the same thing even though it's not as well executed here.

 

[TDLink]

Well, yeah, clearly I could name 5 better shows in general which is why I edited the post to 2015 premieres.

Yeah based on what I've seen I certainly think it's one of the better new dramas of the year. But I'd probably put Daredevil on that list too and I don't think it's especially strong. It's been a pretty weak year for new series.

Haven't seen Man In The High Castle yet though, and I'm curious about that one.

 

[foxtrot3d]

They're clearly going for the same thing even though it's not as well executed here.

I don't give out extra credit for effort.

 

[Froli]

I get what the show is going for, and there's a lot of concepts that are really cool, but it's a pretty piss-poor execution that exists in a world with a lot of better shows circling similar themes.

that.

I'm about 45 mins into episode 10 or 11, nearly through S1 at any rate. Honest opinion: this show is fucking dumb. It was fun at first, but things get worse with each new episode. It's barely watchable at this point.

Would not recommend. Would not watch again. Might not even finish.

First 5 - 6 episodes are pretty good stuff. Like 8/10 territory even. Then it just gets way too corny.

Yep, I think the right word is execution of the story arc, it was repetitious/chaotic and as it progressed beyond episode 6, it got old. The budget for some special effects and action scenes is questionable too. I was even surprised some of you say that it's better than Daredevil lol.

I also felt the focus on just one villain made the series stale.
IMO Daredevil is 9/10 while Jessica Jones is 6/10 (meh rating).

 

[ivysaur12]

But do you get to criticize someone's shit when you poop everyday? ;p

To be honest, and I don't think you mean it this way, ever person who works on something less-than-good and most of the time it's not their fault if thats good or not. One of my favorite writes in the world has been shuffled around on crap due to a host of factors.

There are even some good writers who have created some shitty shows. We all love Urman, but what if she hadn't created Jane the Virgin and we just knew her as The Woman Who Created Emily Owens MD?

And being involved in something creative doesn't absolve you from criticizing. I want to like everything! All of the things!!

 

[Jarmel]

I don't give out extra credit for effort.

Well they certainly didn't do a bad job.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I pretty much exclusively watch scifi fantasy stuff.

I can't in good conscience try to tell ivy what to watch.

The most realistic shows I watch are a toss up between Person of Interest and The Listener.

I watch Jane the Virgin as well, but that show is pretty much a fantasy show given how detached everything in it is from reality. Part of the reason I love it.

I forgot where I was going with this, but I'm really enjoying Jessica Jones so far.

 

[Maximus.]

Watched the first two episodes and love it so far. First time watching something based off a comic and not knowing the source material and enjoying the ride.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Fine! I'll watch two more.

You're all obligated to watch any show, shitty or otherwise, I work on. Ha!

If it makes you feel better, I thought the pilot was pretty bad. And the second was a bit better, but not much. I haven't decided yet whether the writing is bad, Ritter as Jones is bad, or both. I'm waiting for the moment I become emotionally attached to her because after 2 episodes I don't care about anyone. However, I'm stubborn as shit and will watch all the way through. I have plenty of practice of piling through garbage after Death Note and (coincidentally enough) Doctor Who.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

I blame the writing more than Ritter. Ritter has consistently proven to me she can handle comedy and drama well and should be able to play a character like this well, and most of the time she does, but there are moments where the dialogue is stilted.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Well they certainly didn't do a bad job.

They do in certain areas the rest is bare bones passable TV. The majority of shows on TV aren't bad, they are watchable but I ain't interested.

 

[a secret-boss]

the more I watch.

Kilgrave is like a creeper who got shot down by a girl he got a crash on

 

[OdysseusVA]

I feel they built up Kilgrave only to let him slump after first 2-3 episodes. Doesn't seem as sinister.

 

[Jarmel]

They do in certain areas the rest is bare bones passable TV. The majority of shows on TV aren't bad, they are watchable but I ain't interested.

With Tennant? I'm referring to how his character has been portrayed and his relationship with Jessica. Up to the point I'm at, this aspect of the show has been excellent.

I feel they built up Kilgrave only to let him slump after first 2-3 episodes. Doesn't seem as sinister.

What episode are you on? I don't see how someone can say that after the episode 5 ending.

 

[TDLink]

If it makes you feel better, I thought the pilot was pretty bad. And the second was a bit better, but not much. I haven't decided yet whether the writing is bad, Ritter as Jones is bad, or both. I'm waiting for the moment I become emotionally attached to her because after 2 episodes I don't care about anyone.

For me, I actually do think I like the supporting cast more than Ritter but at the same time I feel she is a really good actress and strong in the role. It's just that the character isn't really someone that is inherently likable, in fact I'm not even sure if the show is interested in you liking her. And that is a bit of a put off. But she does an amazing job. Up to the point I have seen David Tennant has hardly appeared, but he makes the most of his thus far limited screen time. He's an absolute creep in all the best ways. And outside of a few questionable shots I do think the direction overall is pretty good. And the sound mixing appropriately Noirish. I find a lot of simple scenes making me tense, which I am pretty sure is the intention.

I do think the dialogue writing could be a bit stronger, but the narrative is engaging and the acting sells it for me.

 

[foxtrot3d]

With Tennant? I'm referring to how his character has been portrayed and his relationship with Jessica. Up to the point I'm at, this aspect of the show has been excellent.



What episode are you on? I don't see how someone can say that after the episode 5 ending.

Honestly, I find Tennant's acting to be mediocre. There isn't much subtly to what he is doing and you've seen the range of his character after about Ep. 4 or 6. I also find his relationship with Jessica and the use of his powers in general to be unimaginative.

 

[Blader]

What if I really don't like David Tennant?

Also, wait, that was supposed to be anal in the pilot? Where was the lube?!

No one needs lube on TV!

 

[PsychBat!]

Daredevil was better. On the phone and about to drive soon so I can't give a well structured opinion.

This show is good, but like I said before, it wanes and is directionless in the second half of episode 10.

 

[OdysseusVA]

What episode are you on? I don't see how someone can say that after the episode 5 ending.

Half way through 6. Both foxtrot3d and a secret-boss pretty much summed up how I feel.

 

[Quick]

Midway through episode 5.

Character spoiler:

Spoiler

Anybody catch the Captain America cameo at the park?

 

[WrenchNinja]

who sleeps in a tanktop and underwear but also wears socks. that's just dumb.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

just finished episode 2

Spoiler

kilgrave's entrance with the "i hate children" was a bit cringe. dude, we know you are the bad guy. no needs for that please-hate-me-im-so-horrible intro :x

 

[GAMEPROFF]

You mean other than Scarlet Witch and the Loki staff stuff?

Because the range of the person who were part of the events are really limited? And we dont know what happens after an Avengers mission, I dont see them all sitting down in a pressconference and tell the people details like individual power sets and stuff like this.

 

[WickedLaharl]

Seems like a decent show but it can't even touch daredevil's greatness.

 

[foxtrot3d]

I posted out some long winded thoughts in the spoiler thread but figured I'd post it here too, don't read until you finish the series.

*sigh*

I don't know where to being, I'll just start by saying I didn't like the show. Right now I'm a bit tired since it's late but I can't really sleep so I feel like rattling off my thoughts on the show. I'm going to try to keep them as organized and literate as possible but I'm really just going to be free flowing from here on out, writing random thoughts that pop in to my mind when I think about the whole show. Let's go:

If I can describe the show in a single word it would be boring. Now, some comic fanboy asshole will swoop down and say something incredibly dumb like "you just don't like the show because it's slower paced." To which I will reply, "who let you use your parents Netflix account? And, how can you fly?" But seriously, I love slower paced shows especially filled in a TV world, especially comic TV world, of faster paced narrative where character aren't really allowed to breathe. Jessica Jones is not slow paced, it is boring. Breaking Bad is slow paced, Fargo is slow paced and both are excellent at displaying this, JJ wants you to think it's complex and daring but it's shallow and unimaginative. Fargo is a good example because it can create mind numbing tension just from two regular people talking, you just have this eerie sense that anything can happen at a moment's notice and you become especially scared when a character is outside by themselves in the stark, open wilderness.

I don't think JJ knows what it wants to be. Now, I want to preface this all by saying I've never read any JJ comic and I don't plan to ever read one so if this show plays out exactly like the comic I don't care, that just tells me the comic is also bad. I'm not a comic reader but I've seen just about everything in the MCU, but even that doesn't matter because a good show is a good show regardless of the source material. I never gave two fuck alls about Daredevil and always found him to be a "boring" hero, a dude who is slightly not blind. Buzz off. However, the Daredevil TV show is pretty darn good with some excellent cinematography, action, acting, and plot. Now, I'm not some crazy individual who thinks it is the second coming or the best TV show of 2015, I would rank it near Arrow S1 or S2, but it was a decent show that kept me engaged. JJ, on the other hand, never kept me engaged.

Spoiler

For starters, despite being a private eye JJ isn't really about "detective" work or any sort of mystery. By the very first episode we know who Kilgrave is and what he is capable of and by the second episode we are formerly introduced to him. The rest of the series is a drawn out back and forth game between Kilgrave and Jessica with zero mystery or build up. He gets to her, she gets to him, he runs away, he gets back at her, she gets close to him again, etc, etc. Boring. Hey, how about instead of shoving Kilgrave into our face we have him toying with Jessica for the majority of the show, Hannibal style? You know leave a string of murders and cases at her feet that she has to piece together to find him? How about he uses his power to get to those closest to her so that she can no longer trust anyone but herself? Perhaps we can mirror Kilgrave's overt use of control with Jessica's own use of subtle manipulation to get what she wants? How about some actual psychological thrill?

Instead, JJ is content with using Kilgrave in the most uninspiring way possible as this mustache twirling villain, obsessed with Jessica who only seems to know how to use his power to kill people and occasionally spy on Jessica. There is absolutely no subtly or originality to his power usage, we're talking about a guy with the ability to control people's minds and the most original thing he can think of is "I'll let all these people kill themselves if you don't do as I say." A threat he uses pretty much every time he is on screen so that it immediately becomes boring. Oh and that threat that anyone can be a Kilgrave sleeper agent is quickly turned into a joke, relax guys he's not going to play some long con with Jessica if someone is mind controlled by him they will immediately try to kill her or someone close to her. Phew, thanks for removing all that tension.

The cast of supporting characters are even worse, not just with their inability to act, but also the uselessness of their characters with side plots that often go nowhere or are dropped for long stretches. Luke Cage shows up early on as this kind of love interest as Jessica really loves dudes with blank, expressionless faces, but he's dropped quickly and isn't seen again for a long stretch of episodes until the plot suddenly needs him again to play the "damsel." Hogarth is probably the worst character on the show, a powerful woman who just so happens to be a lesbian (surprise, a ruthless woman at the top of her game has to be a homosexual) whose wasted in a terrible sub-plot involving her ex-wife. There really isn't a single point to this sub-plot and Hogarth is presented as a person with zero redeeming qualities, hell the show does a good job of stepping on her good qualities as a lawyer. Screw you Hogarth, stop trying to help your clients and help Jessica, NOW! You see there could have been this interesting theme being conveyed through her character about the nature of power in a relationship and the need for total control, again an attempt to mirror Kilgrave but this never surfaces.

Every other side character is also equally wasted especially that Simpson dude who shows up strong for the first few episodes and then falls by the wayside because the plot no longer demands him only for him to surface again near the end for reasons. I assume he's some dude big in the comics as his reappearance just felt like a painful chore to setup stuff for the future since it was in no way relevant or necessary.

"Ugh, Jessica Kilgrave needs to die!"
"I know, we are in total agreement."
"I'm sorry, I have to kill you because you won't kill him."
"I just said I would."
"No, no, you can't fool me the only way to kill him is to kill you."
"Simpson if you really care then why don't you just leave me alone and go kill him?
"Arrggh, stop making sense and die."

Yes, he's influenced by drugs or whatever it doesn't make that whole scenario not incredibly stupid.

Again, I just have to circle back to the fact that the show is just boring. There is no mystery to solve, no clues to track, no hidden villain, no moral choices, no build up to a tense face-off. Instead, everything is just kinda there at the start and then it just sort of ends. The final show down was really pathetic because they tried to build up the fact that Kilgrave was getting stronger, that his mind control could reach new levels and range. However, none of that happens in the final show down. Killgrave basically tells Jessica where he is and then uses the same basic version of his powers he's used throughout the show. He stands next to a crowed of people and tells them to do stuff. He doesn't control someone through a telephone or shot on a megaphone for all of NY to kill themselves, he just does the same thing he's always done and then Jessica snaps his neck. Game over. Boy, oh boy, what a tense showdown that was built up throughout the entire series. Oh wait...

I just didn't get what the series was trying to convey, what was the theme and who is Jessica Jones? I believe this is supposed to be an origin story for her character so what exactly is Jessica Jones? Is she a private detective solving cases? She didn't actually solve the Kilgrave case, she didn't use much detective skills to catch him she just eventually got tired and snapped his neck. Why do people suddenly think she's a hero now for what she did at the docks and want to hire her? Again, what is her character, what does she do? I have no idea.

Further stray thoughts:
-Why is Kilgrave's sexual abuse basically glanced over? You can show him have a man put his head through a wall or force people to stab themselves to death but you can only have his sexual abuse "shown" through the hushed whispers of victims and then never really talked about again.
-Why is JJ's power so inconsistent? She can help out with ease during a bar brawl with a group of men but a later group of dudes easily beat the shit out of her with tasers? Why can she knock some people out with one punch flinging them across the room but other times regular dudes take 20 hits to do gown?
-What's the point of Reuben?
-Why is the cinematography so inconsistent to being outright bad at times?
-Why does the musical score suck beside the intro?
-I found the dialogue often really clunky and not very good.
-Must she always wear the same jacket and scarf thing?

 

[Frozen Canadian]

You mean other than Scarlet Witch and the Loki staff stuff?

To be fair, who else in the world knows Mind Control is a real thing other than the Avengers, SHIELD and Hydra? Just a few people including Jessica I guess. Until people see it they won't believe it, no matter how crazy the world it. Trisha does bring that up when she says how can you not believe this even though the city was attacked by ALIENS, so they acknowledge the hypocrisy at least.

And with Scarlet, who knows how many people know she fucks with minds? Avengers and Hydra? For all we know as far as the public can see from the news or whatever she just shoots red stuff from her hands

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

just finished episode 2

Spoiler

kilgrave's entrance with the "i hate children" was a bit cringe. dude, we know you are the bad guy. no needs for that please-hate-me-im-so-horrible intro :x

I thought it was fine.

 

[Cartman86]

Seems like a decent show but it can't even touch daredevil's greatness.

If you haven't watched it this is the same sort of comment you see in the Daredevil threads at the time of release. Those people have just stopped talking about the show. Give it a chance.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

I thought it was fine.

i guess i and you shares different opinions?????

omg~