Support NeoGAF

[Manmademan]

You just said that OMD didn't change anything other than his marriage and I just explained how it did far more (it altered his entire timeline) this can be verified. So the burden is on you to prove that i'm wrong.

The only thing that "never happened" was peter's marriage and child. That was mephisto magically editing it out.

Aunt may was dying, but her life was saved. This wasn't a change to pre-existing history.

Peter's organic webbing was also not edited out. that entire storyline still happened, they just didn't reveal why he lost those until much later. (it was stated that he ended up rejecting "the other" and that's why he no longer has his stingers or organic webs. Kaine didn't, and still has those abilities.)

peter revealing his identity? still happened. Because everyone is magically prevented from remembering doesn't mean that he never revealed it, and when he chooses to reveal himself (as he did with the fantastic four) ALL of their memories came back. they remember everything about their history, because it all still happened.

EVERY event that took place during the 560-odd issues of spiderman (and associated series) STILL occurred, with one small change- peter's marriage just didn't happen. Nothing else about marvel history was altered, which is WHY it's not a reboot.

This is completely different from something like DC's crisis on infinite earths or New 52, which wiped all pre-existing history from the record and said "this is a new character." Peter Parker post brand new day is NOT a new character. it's the same guy, with the same history, and marvel did not invalidate 45 years of his history with that story.

 

[Mudcrab]

I'm pretty sure we'll get "this doesn't stand for France" Captain America in the new world.

I'd be the saltiest dude in salt town.

 

[Gambit 1138]

The only thing that "never happened" was peter's marriage and child. That was mephisto magically editing it out.

Aunt may was dying, but her life was saved. This wasn't a change to pre-existing history.

Peter's organic webbing was also not edited out. that entire storyline still happened, they just didn't reveal why he lost those until much later. (it was stated that he ended up rejecting "the other" and that's why he no longer has his stingers or organic webs. Kaine didn't, and still has those abilities.)

peter revealing his identity? still happened. Because everyone is magically prevented from remembering doesn't mean that he never revealed it, and when he chooses to reveal himself (as he did with the fantastic four) ALL of their memories came back. they remember everything about their history, because it all still happened.

EVERY event that took place during the 560-odd issues of spiderman (and associated series) STILL occurred, with one small change- peter's marriage just didn't happen. Nothing else about marvel history was altered, which is WHY it's not a reboot.

but what abut Harry? I guess your making the case that OND was used as a retcon rather than a change to Peter's timeline?
http://www.chasingamazingblog.com/2014/02/19/brand-new-day-and-the-retcon-of-harry-osborn/

I guess this gold is all still canon for the time being:

 

[Parallax]

what about night makes this thread go off?

 

[Slayven]

The only thing that "never happened" was peter's marriage and child. That was mephisto magically editing it out.

Aunt may was dying, but her life was saved. This wasn't a change to pre-existing history.

Peter's organic webbing was also not edited out. that entire storyline still happened, they just didn't reveal why he lost those until much later. (it was stated that he ended up rejecting "the other" and that's why he no longer has his stingers or organic webs. Kaine didn't, and still has those abilities.)

peter revealing his identity? still happened. Because everyone is magically prevented from remembering doesn't mean that he never revealed it, and when he chooses to reveal himself (as he did with the fantastic four) ALL of their memories came back. they remember everything about their history, because it all still happened.

EVERY event that took place during the 560-odd issues of spiderman (and associated series) STILL occurred, with one small change- peter's marriage just didn't happen. Nothing else about marvel history was altered, which is WHY it's not a reboot.

Powers get tweaked everyday. Who remembers Gambit's charm power or his psychic resistance? Carol and Rogue's 7th Sense? Prof X's power armor that allowed him to walk? Cyclops ability to absorb energy? Dr. Strange's Gaian field?

 

[Manmademan]

but what abut Harry? I guess your making the case that OND was used as a retcon rather than a change to Peter's timeline?]

yep, because harry was STILL killed the same way he was originally, with the explanation that "oh, I was laying low and hiding in europe after that. it didn't kill me permanently."

This isn't even the first time that happened. Aunt may was killed off (and rather convincingly) in ASM 300 (or was it 400?) only for marvel to backtrack and say "that was an actress."

Was that a reboot? fuck no, just your run of the mill retcon.

 

[Gambit 1138]

An article about Harry's resurrection in 1999, when BND happened in 2008? What am I missing?

Am I missing something? He died in Spectacular Spider-Man #200 and didn't return until Brand New Day am I incorrect?

yep, because harry was STILL killed the same way he was originally, with the explanation that "oh, I was laying low and hiding in europe after that. it didn't kill me permanently."

This isn't even the first time that happened. Aunt may was killed off (and rather convincingly) in ASM 300 (or was it 400?) only for marvel to backtrack and say "that was an actress."

Was that a reboot? fuck no, just your run of the mill retcon.

Your playing word games though. While it technically wasn't a reboot it dramatically altered the spider-man status quo to be more like he was originally.

 

[Manmademan]

what about night makes this thread go off?

I come back from work lol

 

[CrichtonKicks]

I guess this gold is all still canon for the time being:

Um, yes? Why wouldn't it be? But it isn't exactly being referenced anymore either. Just like almost no one references Professor X secretly being in love with Jean Grey.

 

[Manmademan]

Um, yes? Why wouldn't it be? But it isn't exactly being referenced anymore either. Just like almost no one references Professor X secretly being in love with Jean Grey.

they referenced that one way back during Onslaught, but I don't recall seeing it since.

 

[Slayven]

what about night makes this thread go off?

Nerds get off of work

Am I missing something? He died in Spectacular Spider-Man #200 and didn't return until Brand New Day am I incorrect?

In 1993

and was brought back in Amazing Spider-Man #581 in 1999

 

[guek]

Your playing word games though. While it technically wasn't a reboot it dramatically altered the spider-man status quo to be more like he was originally.

Retcon =/= Reboot

This isn't a matter of semantics.

 

[Coriolanus]

While it technically wasn't a reboot it dramatically altered the spider-man status quo to be more like he was originally.

If that's the criteria you wanna use, nearly every marvel comic suffers a reboot when writers change.

 

[Manmademan]

Your playing word games though. While it technically wasn't a reboot it dramatically altered the spider-man status quo to be more like he was originally. Then you can argue Post-Crisis DC Universe wasn't a full reboot either

What the hell? We've officially boarded the train to crazytown

Retcon =/= Reboot

This isn't a matter of semantics.

Exactly. and i mentioned Punisher and Tony early on to make a point. Those characters had their origins in the korean war and vietnam, but have since been retconned into being involved in the middle east, because of marvel time.

That aspect of their history has changed (this is a retcon) but the events of their books are all still canon, and it's still the same punisher, and the same iron man. DC DEFINITIVELY established the Pre-Crisis and Post Crisis and New 52 Superman as completely different people.

 

[Sandfox]

The issue with this OMD discussion is that a lot of the stuff was explained/retconned in OMIT.

 

[Gambit 1138]

They "return" in Secret Wars because they're mixing multiple Earths together. So, 616 Wolverine is still dead, but they now will have Wolverine from the 90s X-Men cartoon running around for a while alongside some other variations. One of those alternate Wolverines could end up sticking around in the end.

I don't think so sir

"Driving home the point that anything will be possible, Alonso also teased the possibility of bring back old characters during Secret Wars. "If we wanted to resurrect Gwen Stacy," he said with a smile, "this would be the place to do it.""

He clearly says resurrect, we already have Ultimate Gwen and Spider-Gwen so his language is definitely odd if he's referring to them.

What the hell? We've officially boarded the train to crazytown

It wasn't a full reboot as parts of the old history remained in place.

 

[Gambit 1138]

Nerds get off of work


In 1993

and was brought back in Amazing Spider-Man #581 in 1999

Amazing Spider-Man #581 didn't come out until 2009 dude....thats post-BND.

EDIT: Lmao your going by a typo on Marvel.com do you actually read comics or just google them?

 

[CrichtonKicks]

I don't think so sir

"Driving home the point that anything will be possible, Alonso also teased the possibility of bring back old characters during Secret Wars. "If we wanted to resurrect Gwen Stacy," he said with a smile, "this would be the place to do it.""

He clearly says resurrect, we already have Ultimate Gwen and Spider-Gwen so his language is definitely odd if he's referring to them.

I think he means that Gwen can be brought into the post Secret Wars MU (will no longer be the 616) using an alt-universe Gwen. Likely will be Spider-Gwen.

Amazing Spider-Man #581 didn't come out until 2009 dude....thats post-BND.

EDIT: Lmao your going by a typo on Marvel.com do you actually read comics or just google them?

It was during OMD actually, Amazing 545.

 

[Sandfox]

Amazing Spider-Man #581 didn't come out until 2009 dude....thats post-BND.

EDIT: Lmao your going by a typo on Marvel.com do you actually read comics or just google them?

That's not a typo, 1999 is when that volume of ASM started. For example, the next issue of ASM to come out would be ASM 2014 since that's when the new volume started.

 

[Manmademan]

I think he means that Gwen can be brought into the post Secret Wars MU (will no longer be the 616) using an alt-universe Gwen. Likely will be Spider-Gwen.

or something close to it. we may see a "merging" of histories (they've implied this with Miles already) blending the two together after Secret Wars is over.

I don't think they'll just throw spider gwen into 616 with her alt-history completely intact. doing this for everyone (and there will definitely be more than one example of this) would be more of a mess than they started with.

 

[guek]

What the hell? We've officially boarded the train to crazytown



Exactly. and i mentioned Punisher and Tony early on to make a point. Those characters had their origins in the korean war and vietnam, but have since been retconned into being involved in the middle east, because of marvel time.

That aspect of their history has changed (this is a retcon) but the events of their books are all still canon, and it's still the same punisher, and the same iron man. DC DEFINITIVELY established the Pre-Crisis and Post Crisis and New 52 Superman as completely different people.

I think Gambit 1138 probably actually reads comics but that doesn't seem to be the issue at hand here...

There are some many virtually no problems that can be solved with an internet argument

 

[Manmademan]

I think Gambit 1138 probably actually reads comics but that doesn't seem to be the issue at hand here...

The are some many virtually no problems that can be solved with an internet argument

YES THERE ARE NOOB STFU

Spoiler

lol

 

[Gambit 1138]

That's not a typo, 1999 is when that volume of ASM started. For example, the next issue of ASM to come out would be ASM 2014 since that's when the new volume started.

ok but Slayven kept saying the issue itself came out in 1999 and insisted that was also the issue that he came back in. Neither is factually correct.

 

[guek]

or something close to it. we may see a "merging" of histories (they've implied this with Miles already) blending the two together after Secret Wars is over.

I don't think they'll just throw spider gwen into 616 with her alt-history completely intact. doing this for everyone (and there will definitely be more than one example of this) would be more of a mess than they started with.

I really wish marvel would do more long running stand alone alternate universe lines like they used to. Spider-Gwen could be the new Spider-Girl or Spider-man Loves Mary Jane (yeah I read em, it was adorable, come at me bro)

 

[Manmademan]

I really wish marvel would do more long running stand alone alternate universe lines like they used to. Spider-Gwen could be the new Spider-Girl or Spider-man Loves Mary Jane (yeah I read em, it was adorable, come at me bro)

Hey, they brought 2099 back, anything is possible.

It appears though that editorial seems to think the "infinite multiverse" angle has run it's course, and alternate hulks and alternate thors being used as literal deus-ex-machinas in Avengers seems to almost be an in joke hinting at this.

like "see how cheap this is? wouldn't you like us to get rid of this as a storytelling crutch?"

ok but Slayven kept saying the issue itself came out in 1999 and insisted that was also the issue that he came back in. Neither is factually correct.

I'm sure he's wallowing in shame as we speak, having fucked up a date. it happens, but has nothing to do with the larger issue of not knowing the distinction between a singular retcon of an event, and rebooting a character. Marvel does the one all the time, and BND is not the most egregious example by a long shot. Go and look at O.G. Nick Fury's entire history.

The other is a complete invalidating of everything that came before in favor of a fresh take not tied down to pre-existing continuity, and marvel did not do this with BND, and hasn't done it ever.

 

[guek]

Hey, they brought 2099 back, anything is possible.

It appears though that editorial seems to think the "infinite multiverse" angle has run it's course, and alternate hulks and alternate thors being used as literal deus-ex-machinas in Avengers seems to almost be an in joke hinting at this.

like "see how cheap this is? wouldn't you like us to get rid of this as a storytelling crutch?"

I'd personally rather they bring Dan Slott out back and "took care of him"

Throw Geoff Loeb out on the curb while they're at it!

 

[Slayven]

ok but Slayven kept saying the issue itself came out in 1999 and insisted that was also the issue that he came back in. Neither is factually correct.

I got the numbers wrong, but him coming back had fuck all to do with Brand New Day.

 

[Manmademan]

I'd personally rather they bring Dan Slott out back and "took care of him"

not until they're done with spider verse, I'm actually enjoying this.

That last panel of ASM 13 though! All is forgiven

 

[Father_Brain]

or something close to it. we may see a "merging" of histories (they've implied this with Miles already) blending the two together after Secret Wars is over.

I don't think they'll just throw spider gwen into 616 with her alt-history completely intact. doing this for everyone (and there will definitely be more than one example of this) would be more of a mess than they started with.

Honestly, this is about what I expect to happen. Not necessarily for Spider-Gwen, but for Miles Morales and whoever else gets stuck on The Earth Formerly Known As 616.

Whether they can make it work... well, we'll see. (BTW, where have they implied that Miles will be retconned into 616?)

 

[Gambit 1138]

I got the numbers wrong, but him coming back had fuck all to do with Brand New Day.

You got the numbers wrong? You said Harry came back in 1999 you even claimed you looked at the link I sent and then doubled owned saying it was about Harry's resurection back in 1999 despite the headline of the article being "brand new day and the recon of Harry Osborn".

 

[Manmademan]

Honestly, this is about what I expect to happen. Not necessarily for Spider-Gwen, but for Miles Morales and whoever else gets stuck on The Earth Formerly Known As 616.

Whether they can make it work... well, we'll see. (BTW, where have they implied that Miles will be retconned into 616?)

it's been implied there's a 616 Miles Morales already with some kind of shocking secret. They'll likely just merge the two.

 

[Slayven]

It absolutely does

Norman faked his death and returned. You know how many Spidey villians have faked their death and returned?

 

[Fintan]

Wait, wasn't Harry being brought back one of the changes to Peter's timeline as a result of the whole OMD/Mephisto thing? He shows back up in the first BND issue. Had Harry being potentially alive been mentioned before then?

 

[Manmademan]

Wait, wasn't Harry being brought back one of the changes to Peter's timeline as a result of the whole OMD/Mephisto thing? He shows back up in the first BND issue. Had Harry being potentially alive been mentioned before then?

its explained away as not something mephisto did, but simply Harry surviving after being killed and hiding out in europe. He was alive, but pre-BND peter just wasn't aware of it.

This isn't really a reboot and is barely a retcon, and isn't really all that dissimilar from Marvel killing off aunt may and saying "that was an actress, the real one was on vacation."

 

[Father_Brain]

it's been implied there's a 616 Miles Morales already with some kind of shocking secret. They'll likely just merge the two.

Oh, right, the loose end from Spider-Men they never addressed. Hmm, maybe.

I'd be more inclined to bet on 616 Miles just dying if he's actually in SW.

 

[Manmademan]

Oh, right, the loose end from Spider-Men they never addressed. Hmm, maybe.

I'd be more inclined to bet on 616 Miles just dying if he's actually in SW.

could be, but there's a lot of weirdness around currently that's probably going to be resolved with character merging.

Cap is still going to be 90 years old and Thor is still unworthy (what WAS that about, btw?)

 

[maxcriden]

its explained away as not something mephisto did, but simply Harry surviving after being killed and hiding out in europe. He was alive, but pre-BND peter just wasn't aware of it.

This isn't really a reboot and is barely a retcon, and isn't really all that dissimilar from Marvel killing off aunt may and saying "that was an actress, the real one was on vacation."

Oh, that one was the most disappointing reboot ever. ASM #400 is amazing.

 

[Father_Brain]

could be, but there's a lot of weirdness around currently that's probably going to be resolved with character merging.

Cap is still going to be 90 years old and Thor is still unworthy (what WAS that about, btw?)

I honestly think that when this ends, we'll still have female Thor and Sam Wilson as Cap. Maybe not Superior Iron Man, though.

 

[Slayven]

Has female Thor done anything?

 

[crimsonspider89]

could be, but there's a lot of weirdness around currently that's probably going to be resolved with character merging.

Cap is still going to be 90 years old and Thor is still unworthy (what WAS that about, btw?)

Well, don't clikce if you haven't read recent Hickmanvengers

Spoiler

Thor has the hammer of Thorr so he has his powers back.

And yeah.

 

[Manmademan]

Oh, that one was the most disappointing reboot ever. ASM #400 is amazing.

I was legitimately pissed about that one. ASM 400 really felt like a turning point for the character, but like the kids and the marriage it was never going to stick, because it "ages the character" and fussing over aunt may is a staple.

of course, Aunt May isn't ALL bad

 

[Manmademan]

Well, don't clikce if you haven't read recent Hickmanvengers

Spoiler

Thor has the hammer of Thorr so he has his powers back.

And yeah.

Oh, I know all about that- in fact i referenced it a bit earlier as "alternate Thors being used as literal deus-ex-machinas to solve plot problems."

Spoiler

Thor is still unworthy, he just has a silly hammer from an alternate universe Thor that no one bothered to mention until just now.

I still don't know if they've actually come out and said what magically made him unworthy after nick fury whispered sweet nothings in his ear.

I honestly think that when this ends, we'll still have female Thor and Sam Wilson as Cap. Maybe not Superior Iron Man, though.

They've mentioned "inverted sabretooth" as something unnatural that WILL wear off eventually, so I'm in agreement with you that Superior Iron Man isn't sticking around. It would be funny if "Tony Stark 2099, Sorcerer supreme" remained canon though.

edit: eh, I guess I should spoiler that..its kinda sorta recent.

Has female Thor done anything?

The book is supposedly legitimately good, but honestly there are only so many hours in the day

 

[crimsonspider89]

Oh, I know all about that- in fact i referenced it a bit earlier as "alternate Thors being used as literal deus-ex-machinas to solve plot problems."

Spoiler

Thor is still unworthy, he just has a silly hammer from an alternate universe Thor that no one bothered to mention until just now.

I still don't know if they've actually come out and said what magically made him unworthy after nick fury whispered sweet nothings in his ear.



They've mentioned "inverted sabretooth" as something unnatural that WILL wear off eventually, so I'm in agreement with you that Superior Iron Man isn't sticking around. It would be funny if "Tony Stark 2099, Sorcerer supreme" remained canon though.

edit: eh, I guess I should spoiler that..its kinda sorta recent.



The book is supposedly legitimately good, but honestly there are only so many hours in the day

How they had a remote controlled Hulk that people forgot about? LOL

 

[Slayven]

Oh, I know all about that- in fact i referenced it a bit earlier as "alternate Thors being used as literal deus-ex-machinas to solve plot problems."

Spoiler

Thor is still unworthy, he just has a silly hammer from an alternate universe Thor that no one bothered to mention until just now.

I still don't know if they've actually come out and said what magically made him unworthy after nick fury whispered sweet nothings in his ear.



They've mentioned "inverted sabretooth" as something unnatural that WILL wear off eventually, so I'm in agreement with you that Superior Iron Man isn't sticking around. It would be funny if "Tony Stark 2099, Sorcerer supreme" remained canon though.

edit: eh, I guess I should spoiler that..its kinda sorta recent.



The book is supposedly legitimately good, but honestly there are only so many hours in the day

Si she is a backup in her own book?

 

[Parallax]

I honestly think that when this ends, we'll still have female Thor and Sam Wilson as Cap. Maybe not Superior Iron Man, though.

I kinda hope so with captain falcon. Taking on hydra has been the best thing hes done in years. Hell hydras been ruining shit as of late.

 

[Manmademan]

How they had a remote controlled Hulk that people forgot about? LOL

That one was even worse, imho

 

[The Silver]

Do we still not know who female Thor is?

 

[Manmademan]

Do we still not know who female Thor is?

does it really matter when we know who young jean grey is?

I'll be in my bunk

 

[crimsonspider89]

That one was even worse, imho

Nah it was a nice throwback as both of them were. Hickman planted the seeds. Illuminati got lucky Steve decided to pull back. Next team was the Unity team.

 

[Parallax]

Oh, I know all about that- in fact i referenced it a bit earlier as "alternate Thors being used as literal deus-ex-machinas to solve plot problems."

Spoiler

Thor is still unworthy, he just has a silly hammer from an alternate universe Thor that no one bothered to mention until just now.

I still don't know if they've actually come out and said what magically made him unworthy after nick fury whispered sweet nothings in his ear.

whatever it was, it happened at the end of original sin, but i have no idea what could have caused that.