Masahiro Sakurai: The Act of Balancing Smash
- Thread starter Masked Man
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DrROBschiz
Member
Green Mamba
Member
I personally think the added single-player run throughs and two extra characters in an already bloated All-Star Mode are worse than any perceived positives the two new clones bring. Lucina maybe can stay, as she offers lazy people a way to play as Marth, but Dark Pit offers nothing that couldn't have been accomplished as a skin and customs. I think the negatives of his appearance outweigh any real positives. He's the one character in Smash history that I think the game would have been better off without.
DrROBschiz
Member
I would expect him to be cut in the next game lol
Brainfreeze
Member
Man, some of you guys get pretty aggressive with this stuff.
balladofwindfishes
Member
He's popular in Japan (and was requested), he won't be cut.
At the end of the day, the only clone in the series to have never returned in any capacity will be Pichu (assuming Roy is DLC).
So consider that when talking about if Dark Pit will be cut.
At the end of the day, the only clone in the series to have never returned in any capacity will be Pichu (assuming Roy is DLC).
So consider that when talking about if Dark Pit will be cut.
JediLink
Member
Lucina's not even really different. She plays identically to Marth but gets less reward for doing so. Being a skin would have done nothing but help her.
EDIT: Yes, she is slightly stronger than Marth you're right up pretty much touching bodies with your opponent but realistically, how often are you going to be? It's really not enough to be worth it.
Smash is srs bsns bro
She actually needs to play slightly different because all her moves are slightly more unsafe and she gets different strings and combos due to the different knockbacks. (They are worse)
But what I mean is, you can play without the need of going "stupid no tipper moves, Marth is too weak if you're not lucky enough to get tippers" as a more casual player.
And Lucina's fsmash is probably one of the best in the game, that shit hits hard and is a 10 frame move, being the fastest fsmash along with Pit and Samus.
You know, what i really hate? When people say, you don't need to balance the game for casual gamers. Just develop it for competitive play and the rest will just work out fine. We have it this mindset to thank, that so many mobile games and other forms of casual games are so terrible. It shows a lot of disrespect, since those people think casual gamers are just in general stupid. This is why Nintendo still exist and Sakurai is a great developer. They don't try to exclude causal gamers and build their games with those in mind. And this means making thinks simpler, easier and lighter.
The idea that certain clones "steal" a spot for one of your personal favourite characters should die already. I have no interest at all in Sakurai's other franchises like Kirby or KI but I don't mind Dark Pit at all. I wouldn't have gained anything if he wasn't there but as it is there is a number of people who prefer Dark Pit over regular Pit, so why not let them have fun with him?
Smash had several issues over it's history. But the selection of characters was never an issue at all.
I totally agree, that comment is really bad. The "problem" he describes is not just one which can occur on a high tourney level, but it can already happen with experienced intermediate players who never went to a tournament in their life.
So if you don't like the way it is played, guess what, design it differently! There must have been a crazy amount of playtesting before release. It's not as if this wasn't noticed by the team. There must be some great players among the developers, they surely experienced firsthand what could possibly happen at a level slightly above random party matches.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like Smash 4 very very much after despising everything about Brawl. I've been having a blast since it released. But it's not without issues which already occur on intermediate matches in random For Glory matches and which could have been easily avoided without scaring away players who are not into competitive play. Something which Sakurai seems to be afraid of for no actual reason. Smash is a perfect casual game in any shape or form. As long as you keep the general way it plays it will always be the perfect game for a fun night casually playing games with friends.
By changing some of the animation speeds, lags, shield and roll times... No one would have been hurt who doesn't care about this stuff anyway.
I feel like he makes a connection in his head between balanced competitive play and a ruined experience for anyone else which just isn't there. As a fan of the series in any form, casual or somehow competitive, this saddens me to hear form the producer himself. Even though I still like Smash 4 for a lot of reasons.
Smash had several issues over it's history. But the selection of characters was never an issue at all.
I totally agree, that comment is really bad. The "problem" he describes is not just one which can occur on a high tourney level, but it can already happen with experienced intermediate players who never went to a tournament in their life.
So if you don't like the way it is played, guess what, design it differently! There must have been a crazy amount of playtesting before release. It's not as if this wasn't noticed by the team. There must be some great players among the developers, they surely experienced firsthand what could possibly happen at a level slightly above random party matches.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like Smash 4 very very much after despising everything about Brawl. I've been having a blast since it released. But it's not without issues which already occur on intermediate matches in random For Glory matches and which could have been easily avoided without scaring away players who are not into competitive play. Something which Sakurai seems to be afraid of for no actual reason. Smash is a perfect casual game in any shape or form. As long as you keep the general way it plays it will always be the perfect game for a fun night casually playing games with friends.
By changing some of the animation speeds, lags, shield and roll times... No one would have been hurt who doesn't care about this stuff anyway.
I feel like he makes a connection in his head between balanced competitive play and a ruined experience for anyone else which just isn't there. As a fan of the series in any form, casual or somehow competitive, this saddens me to hear form the producer himself. Even though I still like Smash 4 for a lot of reasons.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Oh I'm indifferent, I just figured why people are angry on consistency. Like if Alph was playable people wouldn't get angry.
pretty much a shining example of the homogenous community
I love Smash 4 and play it competitively, but he's not wrong that it's too defensive and slow. The game very much favors defensive play over offense, which is unfortunate. There is a lot of depth to it and it's definitely the most balanced game in the series overall, but imo there's still a lot of room for improvement and it still isn't as exhilarating to watch and play as Melee is.
There's a happy medium to be reached for sure, taking out wavedashing and L-canceling isn't some catastrophic betrayal of competitive play, but we're still not quite there yet - Smash 4 isn't as ludicrously far in the other direction as Brawl is (ugh) but it could be better.
There's a happy medium to be reached for sure, taking out wavedashing and L-canceling isn't some catastrophic betrayal of competitive play, but we're still not quite there yet - Smash 4 isn't as ludicrously far in the other direction as Brawl is (ugh) but it could be better.
I don't understand where the vitriol towards this dude comes from.
You can disagree with what he says, but a lot of the tone here suggests that he's actively trying to ruin people's enjoyment of the game.
Take a step back and realize how ridiculous that sounds. And some of you calling for his removal is ridiculous.
Smash 4 is still slanted towards the defensive side, yes, but this is the closest we've gotten to a truly balanced defensive/offensive split IMO. Melee was too much on the offensive side, Brawl was WAY too much on the defensive side.
You can disagree with what he says, but a lot of the tone here suggests that he's actively trying to ruin people's enjoyment of the game.
Take a step back and realize how ridiculous that sounds. And some of you calling for his removal is ridiculous.
Smash 4 is still slanted towards the defensive side, yes, but this is the closest we've gotten to a truly balanced defensive/offensive split IMO. Melee was too much on the offensive side, Brawl was WAY too much on the defensive side.
Have to agree. I understand the enthusiasm for competitive fighting, but it's ultimately a party game. Everyone has fun and a chance, regardless of their experience and skill with the game.
Jesus Christ, this is a terrible comment.
I basically stop rolling when I play with Samus. I was more joking because of how slow her roll (And Game & Watch's) already are.
DrROBschiz
Member
I disagree
Based on what I have seen you have to switch between the two on the fly and many of the Top players are incredibly aggressive
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Which is one part of the many reasons why he released a sequel that is inferior (in gameplay, not content) to Melee. Plus, his statements as to his design thoughts behind his decisions made me realize that he doesn't know how to make a game accessible/enjoyable for all parties and not just a few.
You can be yeah but it doesn't change the fact that players simply have more defensive options than offense - I play Sonic, so I get what you mean, but I think overall there is still room for change.
If I were to change three things with how the game works now (I'm not even a Melee player yet but I would consider myself fairly knowledgeable of that game's mechanics and meta just because I did a lot of research since I've gotten into the series over the past 2-3 weeks) I'd bring back Melee's airdodge system, tone down floatiness/DI back closer to Melee levels so that it doesn't take as long to lose a stock, and bring back edge-hogging.
Again that's just my opinion though. I like Smash 4 but there are a lot of things I like better about Melee just as an observer.
Brawl really does feel like a slap to the face to Melee fans. :/
balladofwindfishes
Member
I've been switching between Melee and Smash 4 the last few weeks, and one of the major things that I never really noticed about Melee that I'm not a fan of, is the fall speed.
Characters just fall way too fast, to the point where it's difficult to recover and even harder to do anything at all of stage. Roy falls so fast it's hard to judge jumps or do aerials. Like it's almost obnoxious how fast some characters fall.
I don't like the free fall from air dodges either. I think just allowing just one air dodge, but having movement afterwards would be a good compromise.
People forget, but Brawl has some of the best competitive stages in the series. Yoshi's Island and Smashville are no compromises, well made competitive stages.
The strictest stage lists on the planet allow Smashville.
Brawl also added the most characters to the game and cleaned up a lot of glaring holes in the roster (like Dedede and Olimar). I don't think there were any duds on the Brawl roster. Even early anger towards Wolf and Toon Link quickly went away once people actually played the game.
Characters just fall way too fast, to the point where it's difficult to recover and even harder to do anything at all of stage. Roy falls so fast it's hard to judge jumps or do aerials. Like it's almost obnoxious how fast some characters fall.
I don't like the free fall from air dodges either. I think just allowing just one air dodge, but having movement afterwards would be a good compromise.
People forget, but Brawl has some of the best competitive stages in the series. Yoshi's Island and Smashville are no compromises, well made competitive stages.
The strictest stage lists on the planet allow Smashville.
Brawl also added the most characters to the game and cleaned up a lot of glaring holes in the roster (like Dedede and Olimar). I don't think there were any duds on the Brawl roster. Even early anger towards Wolf and Toon Link quickly went away once people actually played the game.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Well, then it's a good thing that no one in this thread (I think), and hardly anyone in the real world actually advocate this strawman argument.
I'd say neutral air dodge w/ free movement alongside directional air dodge free fall would be a good compromise.
Even so, in the end the game is just really boring to watch and play on any real competitive level. Stuff that Melee already addressed well like jab locking and edge invincibility were made borderline game breaking and I can't fathom why.
balladofwindfishes
Member
That sounds too complicated and too easy to accidentally pick the wrong input with a fairly large punishment for doing so.
Gonzo The Great
Banned
Voicing criticisms = ANGER ISSUES
I forgot which site I'm on.
Do you know what "vitriol" is? I don't see any personal attacks here. People can be critical of Sakurai's work without questioning his character as a human being.
Well the only thing one can hope for when asking some one else to take over smash is a fresh perspective. I think smash 4 is in need of this, not because its a bad game but its grown a bit stale. Sakurai's formula of shoe horning in half baked game modes such as target blast, smash run, smash tour etc seems like a waste. I think future installments would benefit greatly from less and more polished game modes that I think isn't in Sakurai judging by previous games.
no they can't
sakurai is perfect and everything he makes is perfect
if you don't think smash 4 is perfect then you're a poopy head
Well saying that he should leave Smash like I see in this thread and have seen many times elsewhere isn't exactly voicing any criticisms either. It's just anger.
He's wasted on this series, to be honest.
Such a genius director, but he's stuck doing nothing but going back and forth with patches and DLC, with people throwing complaints one way or the other. If cutting it off at the tail is what's needed to give him time to work on somethinf fresh, then let someone else please handle the post release.
KIU is ten times the game smash will ever be, and I'm sure any future project of his will be likewise.
Such a genius director, but he's stuck doing nothing but going back and forth with patches and DLC, with people throwing complaints one way or the other. If cutting it off at the tail is what's needed to give him time to work on somethinf fresh, then let someone else please handle the post release.
KIU is ten times the game smash will ever be, and I'm sure any future project of his will be likewise.
Well if you feel his vision is not conducive to a great game, then there is nothing vitriolic about putting forth the notion that someone else may be better for the job.
I don't really get what's complicated about it tbh. Plus it encourages practice and skill, which is a good thing.
There should be a large punishment for relying on air dodge too much.
I think any developer that picks it up will just continue on with Sakurai's groundwork. It won't be Melee, but the next step after Smash 4 or 5.
Gonzo The Great
Banned
I kinda agree. Sakurai is at his best when he's not listening to other people, but the nature of Smash (character requests, input from the competitive scene, etc.) seems to conflict with his ideals.
I think what he meant to say was it would be easy for casuals to accidentally do a mis-input and leave them frustrated. I think its a cool idea, but isn't very casual friendly.
It seriously is bad. I no longer like to play Smash all that much (sticking with the same set of "everything off" rules, only one stage and only a set of characters took its toll) but this is a terrible, terrible thing to say, especially to your fans who like to play it that way. I won't be surprised if this forces either him or Nintendo to do some form of damage control. We're sure it's not a mistranslation, right?
He took requests on Melee and things like characters, and those that didn't make it in made it into Brawl. It's really not unheard of for Sakurai to listen to outside voices in the Smash series.
Ya but of course that's possible, but I don't think that means there isn't a chance for something different. Sakurai is a pretty unique developer and without him I think its very likely smash 5 or whatever will be very different, unless the goal of the developer is to ape Sakurai's design.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
How? That would just create different imbalances. Characters with fast aerials and run speed would still dominate, characters with bad air control and weak defense in the air (like, you know, Falco, who is already low tier) get screwed. Air dodge isn't something you "rely on," it's something you have to do to not, like, lose? I mean, what exactly are the alternatives? Diddy before nerfs already basically single-handedly won tournaments due to how easy it was to punish airdodges with him, so even if you increase the time between air dodges, so what? How does that do anything but make the characters who are already dominant do so even more?
DrROBschiz
Member
If you read the entire interview in context its really not THAT bad
Sure hes not crazy about competitive smash but he isnt getting in the way either ans he details the process for balancing and it seems well reasoned and thought out.
Its clear from how Smash 4 turned out that the duality of it is valued and supported for both casual and competitive.
Its good in both areas that I have a hard time getting mad at him just because he personally doesn't like one style of play over the other.
With Brawl he let that attitude drive the design whilr Smash 4 finds a sweet spot. Its brilliant for that and Im glad he allowed himself to pull back a bit from hating on competitive players.
Eh...We don't need every aspect of the game mechanics to be casual friendly. If we're using Melee as a base, I think the only real changes that would need to be made to make it more casual friendly would be the removal of L-Cancelling and lowering fall speed just a touch across the board.
The way Melee does it is fine. The issue with neutering air dodges with Smash 4's mechanics is just that characters spend way too much time in the air on account of the game's floatiness. Making characters fall faster and only have on air dodge they have to use intelligently would make the game more exciting and fun imo.
We really won't know though. I can see Sakurai moving on at some point and handing it over to another developer that he might find to be competent enough to fill his shoes. He did leave HAL because he didn't want to keep making Kirby games his whole life.
I think the difference between l-canceling, wave-dashing etc. and this is that l-canceling or wave dashing won't be used in casual play and if it is you usually won't end up killing your self by doing a mis-input, but if you try to air dodge while approaching the stage and accidentally do a directional airdodge and kill yourself, casual players that nintendo places a lot of importance on would be mad.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
Melee has no lag on landing with an air dodge, and doing so intentionally is an inextricable part of the competitive metagame. This game has enormous lag on landing. That would not be "fun and exciting." It would simply mean numerous characters would have easy ways to force you into an easy and unavoidable punish unless they also removed the landing lag on air dodge. It would be "dodge aerial, get hit by smash attack," or "get hit by aerial so you don't get hit by smash attack." It would be stupid and broken.
When I suggested making it more like Melee that included getting rid of the ending lag as well.