1944: Americans dying for freedom, human rights, democracy, world peace.From that same tweet:
2020: Americans dying because of a dysfunctional government led by an imbecile.
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Mask Efficacy |OT| Wuhan!! Got You All In Check
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2020: Americans dying because of a dysfunctional government led by an imbecile.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
diffusionx
Gold Member
This was all a giant hoax, just accept it. Question is why.
I would say flu season is generally October/November through February/March.
I would say flu season is generally October/November through February/March.
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Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
I lost my ability to go to cons this year...
To see what our world leaders are will to get away with?
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Birgitte2004-2
Banned
You can see a chart here which shows the last several years of mortality for Flu and Pneumonia:
It's basically a wave where it peaks right around February and troughs in August.
bigsnack
Member
I'm not sure if any group is organized enough to carry this whole event as a full on "hoax". That being said, there was a lot of panic and fear at the beginning, and now nobody seems to be willing to walk back any of the earlier assumptions that were made back in March. Really, the government should be admitting the truth about the impact that this has on the general population. They should let people carry on with their lives, with a stern warning that the elderly, and especially the compromised elderly, need to be protected and watched out for.
Birgitte2004-2
Banned
I am not sure you can go so far as to say a death with COVID + Pneumonia doesn't count as a COVID death at all. As that Flu+Pneumonia mortality page shows, we are way above the "normal" flu+Pneumonia deaths, even in really bad years.
diffusionx
Gold Member
When I say it's a hoax, I am not saying that there is some cabal of people who planed every step of this. And I agree with you that in the beginning there was a lot of fear and "fog" about what it was. But I do think at some point, shortly thereafter, evil people in the government thought "how can we use this to consolidate power and implement the things we want to implement" as well as other entities like the media thinking "how can we use this to advance our own goals/defeat blumpf in november." And as time has gone on, despite all evidence going the way of "it's not nearly as bad as we thought it was, thank God", they have continued to double down.
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cryptoadam
Banned
Hasn't this been kinda known for a while?
I remember Italy was like 98% with underlying conditions. NYC had 90% for people under 55 had underlying conditions. Its just any time you say it someone will come up with the ancedote of that one healthy (350 lbs) person who got it and died.
Immunity last about 6 months ans you can probably burn this thing out at about 15-25% herd. Just get younger people infected and protect the elderly.
I remember Italy was like 98% with underlying conditions. NYC had 90% for people under 55 had underlying conditions. Its just any time you say it someone will come up with the ancedote of that one healthy (350 lbs) person who got it and died.
Immunity last about 6 months ans you can probably burn this thing out at about 15-25% herd. Just get younger people infected and protect the elderly.
bigsnack
Member
I agree that sites like CNN have quietly moved C19 news to the backburner, as opposed to front paging that things are improving greatly in many parts of the country. They should know that the results of the election (in my mind) are already set right this second, regardless of the outcome we get in November. I think what should be more important is getting kids back in school, and avoiding people getting slaughtered economically for 6 more months out of being afraid of "jumping" first.
bigsnack
Member
I actually never thought about that. They probably should have hard quarantined the elderly, and told younger folks to actively go out and get the virus. Jesus that would have driven most liberal folks absolutely nutso!
cryptoadam
Banned
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
6% of people dying with no other contributing medical factors does not mean only 6% of people died from COVID. What a terrible twisting of the data.
Contributing medical factors is not the same thing as as co-mordibities either. Not many people are walking around with cardiac arrest or respiratory arrest, for example, which was listed on the death certificates of about 50% of the cases. Death certificates can list multiple causes of death, with each cause being preceded by an antecedent until you arrive at what the physician feels is the ultimate cause of death. Some physicians are more detailed than others, and will include things like cardiac arrest or respiratory arrest. For example, they may list that a patient died from "Respiratory Arrest" secondary to "Acute Respiratory Distress syndrome" secondary to COVID19. In this case, COVID19 is the ultimate cause of death. Others don't bother and only list the ultimate cause, since there is really no value to including a term like "cardiac arrest" - every death involves cardiac arrest.
Physicians also have the ability to note other medical conditions contributing to but not ultimately causing death. This is often where things like chronic medical illnesses come in to play.
The data is available here if you're interested and not willing to take information at face value from a dubious twitter feed:
www.cdc.gov
Also, we know that viral shedding is not the same as contagiousness. It's why many jurisdictions allow people to return to work if symptoms are improving after 10 days from onset of symptoms without a repeat PCR test.
Contributing medical factors is not the same thing as as co-mordibities either. Not many people are walking around with cardiac arrest or respiratory arrest, for example, which was listed on the death certificates of about 50% of the cases. Death certificates can list multiple causes of death, with each cause being preceded by an antecedent until you arrive at what the physician feels is the ultimate cause of death. Some physicians are more detailed than others, and will include things like cardiac arrest or respiratory arrest. For example, they may list that a patient died from "Respiratory Arrest" secondary to "Acute Respiratory Distress syndrome" secondary to COVID19. In this case, COVID19 is the ultimate cause of death. Others don't bother and only list the ultimate cause, since there is really no value to including a term like "cardiac arrest" - every death involves cardiac arrest.
Physicians also have the ability to note other medical conditions contributing to but not ultimately causing death. This is often where things like chronic medical illnesses come in to play.
The data is available here if you're interested and not willing to take information at face value from a dubious twitter feed:
COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics
Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities. Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.
www.cdc.gov
Also, we know that viral shedding is not the same as contagiousness. It's why many jurisdictions allow people to return to work if symptoms are improving after 10 days from onset of symptoms without a repeat PCR test.
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prag16
Banned
Some of the replies are brutal. "Lol so what if thousands and thousands of people are forced to isolate unnecessarily... better safe than sorry."
The current state of this thread reflects why it’s such a shit show in the USA! Seems people can’t follow and obey the simple rules and are only in it for them selfs !
Good luck with all the conspiracies and how governments and illuminati are trying to oppress the people of the world
All for one and one for all!
Good luck with all the conspiracies and how governments and illuminati are trying to oppress the people of the world
All for one and one for all!They are confirmed cases not potential cases.
As to how serious it is. Right now not especially but it is worth keeping an eye on how things progress.
Naru
Member
This is what epidemiologists are starting to say in Germany too. That concentrating too much on the PCR was a mistake because even if the test is positive in most cases the person is no longer contagious. A huge part of the problem is that the RKI is too slow to adjust to new information/studies.
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MisterFalcon
Member
Using that logic, only 0.002% of Americans (2811 out of 138 million) died in battle on D-Day or the month after.
Totally acceptable
and more acceptable if your family didn’t have a loss. Just make some new people , there is a very easy and relaxing process for that /sarcasm
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Yup , but he is actually wrong as the Netherlands alone has documented 3 cases ...
PCR actually is a very save method, and the PCR used is tailored for COVID19. That’s why the Netherlands tests when you have Covid symptoms.
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hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
You don’t make general policy on 3 cases. If the vast majority of people don’t get infected again, and infection only has a tiny chance of killing you, then reinfection is a non-issue.
Who is talking about making policies from these findings ? He is stating there are 2 found cases WW, which is factually wrong as there are more ...
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hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
Still a tiny tiny number that is ultimately insignificant. The point is that these are not numbers to give a shit about. Sure it's not much fun for the few individuals affected but it doesn't imply a wider problem yet - it might be that a small number of people find their immune systems don't do a good enough job of maintaining those T-cells, who knows. However, for most purposes, for most analyses, the virus doesn't reinfect you. The danger we have, with a media that is presentist and emotionalises every story to highlight what are in reality small and trivial things if they fit a narrative, is that the media will pick up on this and use it to drive home that fear porn - we'll never escape the rona and we'll have to lock down forever.
Compsiox
Banned
With everything going on in the world right now, it's impossibly difficult to not look at the world negatively. The world sucked before and it feels like things are only getting worse with no sign of slowing down.
I can't think of much to be grateful for during this time in my life.
I can't think of much to be grateful for during this time in my life.
DeepBreath87
Banned
3!!!! 3 people???? 3 whole people? If it gets to 4, you guys should probably lock down again.
Either that or you’re splitting hairs. I don’t care if it’s 20 people. I don’t care if it’s 100. I skimmed an article that said one of your 3 people was an elderly person with compromised immunity. So there goes 33% of your reinfections.
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Corona viruses reinfect you all the time
they are widespread and even cause common cold that is around for ages , it’s even a trade for this type of viruses, but those don’t leave implications like this one , why do you think the world is in a locked down state? Much is unknown about this virus it’s nothing to be as scared as you guys are for following some simple rules or overreacting like all your freedom is taken away but it’s a point of concern for the scientific community.And Tcell memory is only effective if you let it infect the world population gradually for years so you don’t have shit shows like Italy , ny, France and Spain .
That’s why scientists think a vaccine is only 40% effective , and hope for a vaccine in the next year, so people will still die even with a vaccine from this and on top of that you will probably need multiple vaccinations like the flu.
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timeflais
Banned
H
hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
Corona viruses reinfect you all the time
First up, don't make assumptions about me. I was wearing masks before it was fashionable, making my own because you couldn't buy the fuckers for love nor money - I even had to learn to fucking sew. I do however see a value in freedom - remember that a man who trades liberty for safety deserves neither. However, regarding the virus, we have basically two scenarios.
1. It can keep reinfecting us forever. That being the case, vaccines are a waste of time and herd immunity won't happen. We're all going to get it eventually so at that point we have to adjust to it being there and simply live our lives. That means protecting the vulnerable as best we can while acknowledging that for most people it's just flu. We don't lock down the whole economy, we get people back into their offices and we don't further cripple future generations with government debt that will take decades to repay*.
2. The reinfection rate is low. So far all evidence points to this, that T-cell immunity provides decent protection - I'm not stating that as a permanent fixed position but that's where we are right now. Assuming that to be the case, and assuming some cross-immunity from other coronaviruses, we can get to a point of herd immunity at quite a low level of infection. That closed healthy populations have seen infection rates peak around 25% suggests that's roughly the mark - not a dead stop but a significant slowing. It means we're not engaging in magical thinking and waiting for a vaccine which will either be early and inadequately tested for safety and potentially present us with bigger problems in the future or will be delayed and leave us waiting for years while our economies wither and die **. It does mean that a vaccine will work, but a quicker way to get there is to let the body make its own vaccine.
* Consider that government debt for a moment. It's going to take decades to pay off which means that for decades governments aren't going to be able to support services to help the poor as effectively as they had in the past, they can't fund the NHS, they can't fund welfare, they can't fund education properly, they can't fund social services to look after the vulnerable, they can't fund police to maintain order, they can't fund the armed forces to protect themselves from invasion or to protect their interests abroad. Then consider this: If we have another big event, another pandemic or another big war, how the fucking hell are our governments going to ever fund it? The funny money that kept things afloat after 2008 debases our currencies and funnels money to the super-rich and that trend would only get worse. For the next pandemic we simply won't be able to lock down because we locked down for too long for this one - we panicked and locked down not for science but because everyone else was doing it and our governments were afraid of being called butchers and murderers by people who hate them anyway.
** The standard leftist argument, one I've heard from the #boristhebutcher brigade, is that by wanting to unlock to save the economy you're sacrificing people's lives to save the rich. Lockdown has benefitted the likes of Amazon at the expense of small businesses and seen a huge shift of wealth from the poor to the super-mega-rich. Lockdown takes away people's jobs and their ability to feed and house their families. If the economy is fucked a FUCKTONNE of people will die and the west will be full of failed states - if you've ever seen a state where the economy has collapsed you'll know that life isn't great for the living, in some ways the dead are lucky.
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Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Not sure why, but the CCP cyberteam almost certainly was behind an effort that pushed the efficacy of lockdowns on Western social media back in March. The liability and safety obsessed cultures endemic in the bureaucratic elite did the rest.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Interesting review of new COVID book by some Economist editors in The Times - paywalled but here's part of it -
We all have our hypotheses and theories, but the vast majority of people are just projecting their ideological and political priors onto this and calling it a day. Nobody knows the answers now and we may never know.
We all have our hypotheses and theories, but the vast majority of people are just projecting their ideological and political priors onto this and calling it a day. Nobody knows the answers now and we may never know.
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It's not that simple.
The problem was NEVER died with coronavirus or died by coronavirus. The real problem is covid have an high percentage with cases with critical condition. Italy have "only" 5k unit with critical care and they were all full for two months. This means there were probably lot of people died at home without a monitoring from hospitals, so people not counted as coronavirus related. Hospital had to choose if you are too old for healthcare. Very funny.
There were lot of cases not reported. According to ISTAT (the department for statistics) they were +49% of dead people in march and +36% in april compared to the previous 5 years. According to ISTAT, the anomaly of dead people compared to the previous 5 years is very high, can be more than the official 34k people, I read somewhere more than 40k.
DeepBreath87
Banned
This is why when people talk about listening to the "experts" like they're the clergy, I reflexively push back. The experts are people slightly more informed than the rest of us. But no one knows anything really. They can't even explain the "why" for things that have ALREADY happened, and they're telling us they can predict what WILL happen in the future. I just don't buy it.
cryptoadam
Banned
And i am sure that all those people had underlying conditions.
Now having hypertension or kidney disease doesnt mean you will die in a year and the CV hurried it up.. you can still live for decades.
Just means that healthy and young people arent dying from this. If your 20 to 60 and in shape its going tl be pretty rare to die or even get really sick from the virus.
DeepBreath87
Banned
This is what has always pissed me off about Dr. Fauci, who has disappeared from the news by the way. He would always give the vague statements about how "young people are not immune", as though anyone really thinks young people cant get the virus at all. He seems to think that the only way to convince people to take the virus seriously is the scare the shit out of them that THEY might die. When we should've been doing is enouraging people to protect the vulnerable: the elderly and chronicly sick. Instead, he and the media have been using scare tactics to create panic. I guess the strategy is that if everyone is scared they might die, they'll be more careful. The problem is people will see through that and lose trust in what they are being told.
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cryptoadam
Banned
I am pretty sure Fauci was sidelined. All though i heard he got some sort of throat surgery.
Either way the guy has been wrong all along. In Jan and Feb he said the threat of the virus was minuscule. He was against masks. He told people to go on cruises. I am sure he was against the travel ban the way he took digs at being afraid od china. He gave credability to the 2 million scare number.
Until you are the one that gets it and has pains months after ... it’s all random , well not really people with defects , illnesses but also defects in DNA. And you be one that needs welfare and other people need to work for that . That’s also why the world is on lock down .. To not have to many people sick all at ones and in the hospital.
I just spoke to our mutual friend and she is still recovering, she got it in March and can only work 2 hours a day, 34 years old no prior conditions...
Yes I know that’s only one example , look at the data, but that data hardly takes these into account , she didn’t die .. she survived . But her life has changed completely. She wasn’t even in the hospital . I am glad that governments make these decisions, because if you look at how people post online we would be in a different spot right now.
Take care all and follow the simple rules.
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BadBurger
Banned
Let's take our "science" from a Qanon source citing Facebook.
Between this, which has transformed into something even dumber than a /r/conspiracy thread, and the Kenosha murderer glorification thread that looks more like a sanitized version of a /pol/thread and less like a GAF thread, I just don't know about this place anymore.
Between this, which has transformed into something even dumber than a /r/conspiracy thread, and the Kenosha murderer glorification thread that looks more like a sanitized version of a /pol/thread and less like a GAF thread, I just don't know about this place anymore.
DeepBreath87
Banned
First the world is not on lockdown. At all. So let's just get that straight.
Your friend's case, while very unfornate is not remotely common. There are not wide scale reports of dehibilitating complications after recovery. That does not mean they don't exist. However, we cannot make policy based on what happened to your friend. The disease is rough and we should all take it seriously. But 99.9% of people in your friend's circumstance (relatively young and healthy) will survive. Something like 97-98% of them will never need a hospital and have no lasting consequences from the virus. I'm sorry your friend fell into that very small %.
DeepBreath87
Banned
"Someone said something I don't agree with
."Who gives a shit? Someone thinks some nonsense? Oh well. Let them think it. It shouldn't hurt your feelings. Either refute what they're saying or just move on if you don't feel like its worth your time. But stop whining. It makes you look pathetic.
diffusionx
Gold Member
In reality we did the opposite. Locked younger people indoors and intentionally exposed vulnerable elderly to a virus that is, for them, quite deadly. These are the people who now claim they have the right to micromanage our lives, tell us what we can and can’t do, what we wear, how businesses can and cannot function, and even if they are and aren’t allowed to survive.
diffusionx
Gold Member
All the lockdown nuts seem to have that one friend who never recovered from it and use that as evidence we should lockdown forever.
meanwhile we can look at the actual antibody data, 25%+ of New York has antibodies, including 70% in some neighborhoods. So that is ~3 million people. If COVID really had these widespread, long-term, crippling effects then it would be front page news every day as hospitals and doctors are swarmed with millions of these chronic cases, and businesses would collapse even more than they have because nobody would be able to work.
There may or may not be some people who get particularly hard hit (happens with the flu too, just sayin’) but the current evidence points to people getting it and recovering just fine.
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cryptoadam
Banned
Again you are proving my point. I didn't say it never happens, but its rare. I know people who got the flu and were fucked up for months. My cousin got pneumonia and said it was the worst thing ever was in the hospital and took weeks to get better. He said it was like he was going to die and he never wanted to get it again.
Millions of people have gotten the virus, we have plenty of data, the numbers don't lie. I am not saying I would want to get the virus. Thats why I mask up, avoid large gatherings and people in general, wash my hands, social distance etc...
But with all the data we can see that the people who are dying from this are old and sick. A small % will be long tails but a lot of diseases have long tails.
I have my own acnedotal evidence, my 90 year old grandmother who has demenita got was as asymptomatic and recovered like nothing. She lives in an old age home where 86% of our deaths are. I guess I should use that one ancedotal case to contradict all the data showing old sick people are the ones mainly dying.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
This is the default frame through which some people view the world - everything is explainable and fixable by the right experts and technocrats who believe the right things. I ask some of my friends in this camp what would have actually been different if Hillary were president.
The only real difference I can see would have been more effective political messaging that experts and technocrats were doing the "right" things (and of course there would have been a much less adversarial press corps where the messaging would be aimed). But what would be different in terms of actual results and why?
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Birgitte2004-2
Banned
I think things in general would have gone smoother under Hillary, but not just because of the press corps. I don't think under a Democrat president you'd have governors actively killing their own people and destroying economies just to "get Hillary". I also don't think the Lancet would be publishing fake stories about medications treating COVID just because Hillary mentioned them in a presser.
Joe T.
Member
The current state of this thread reflects why it’s such a shit show in the USA! Seems people can’t follow and obey the simple rules and are only in it for them selfs !
Good luck with all the conspiracies and how governments and illuminati are trying to oppress the people of the world
Here's a "far right" conspiracy source for you to both consider (sarcasm, obviously):
Coronavirus: Is it time to move on and get back to normal life?
Deaths and hospital admissions are falling while cases are rising – so should we move on from Covid?
www.bbc.com
You can't peddle this kind of irrational fear every single day without eventually waking everyone up. It's happening much, much slower than I would have liked, but it is happening.
Airbus Jr
Banned
No longer contagious but any moment his immune system drop the virus reactivate again and can spread again
We have to make sure that the virus is really gone from someones body
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DeepBreath87
Banned
Um... what? No.
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