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Mask Efficacy |OT| Wuhan!! Got You All In Check

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Those aren't survival rates. I am not sure where he pulled those numbers from. You can look at the study yourself, it's from September 10th and deals with projections regarding theoretical transmission rates. We still don't have a solid idea of the epidemiology of this thing, as noted within that study, so even these can be wrong (which again, I am not seeing any of these numbers - hell we know over 200k died in the US alone from it so it's obviously highly transmissible). And then he talks about extrapolating data in an inference.

He's an economics editor for Sky News, not a doctor or scientist. Is Sky News some kind of tabloid? This just seems like more wrong-minded right winger dreck. Like grandma's feed from Facebook stuff.

It's CDC numbers, not sure where this level of gaslighting would get a pass but not here, these are consistently updated by the CDC, most recently in September...


Way more in-depth here...

 
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sinnergy

Member
Mortality is not the biggest problem , but overloading hospitals are the problem if those are full mortality follows , that is what this virus causes , Wuhan , Italy, Spain, NY to name a few ... and that’s why you need to keep it in check.
 
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CrapSandwich

former Navy SEAL
However, the false positivity rate can't explain the growth in cases, unless testing is increasing by the same proportion. So if cases are doubling every X number of days and testing capacity isn't doubling over the same time period, you know there is a problem.

Of course you typically find positives following number of tests, but the group of people being tested is also important. Initially, only people could get tested by doctor's order and it was very limited to mostly sick people. But now, where testing is much more widely available, it's a much healthier cohort that's going to be misdiagnosed. At any rate, the testing data is absolute garbage not just because of false positives, but also because we know that cases are vastly more widespread than testing indicates, as shown by every serological survey done thus far, plus the fact that the antibodies don't seem to last too terribly long, leading to even further cases that aren't accounted for, additionally the possibility of widespread or even just significant t-cell reactivity in some populations make the numbers even fuzzier. Additionally, cases are double or triple counted if the tests occur at least 24 hours apart. Now if you were to catch a cold, you wouldn't consider yourself as having a new cold every morning you woke up with it, right? Quite frankly, using this data to determine policy is insane.
 

sinnergy

Member
Hospitalizations are down, fearmonger elsewhere.
Here they are rising , after infections rose and now the dead’s are rising . It s a simple pattern , we have all seen it since March. No fear mongering here, it’s even happening in my own hill billy town 🤣

It’s such a simple pattern, to bad it seems stil to complicated for some 🤡
 
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BadBurger

Banned
It's CDC numbers, not sure where this level of gaslighting would get a pass but not here, these are consistently updated by the CDC, most recently in September...

They're always careful with this information because we won't truly understand this devil for a while. Perhaps not for years, like with the first big SARS (which seems quaint now). From that info: "However, as we explain here, the total number of cases of COVID-19 is not known. That’s partly because not everyone with COVID-19 is tested."

What we do know, however, is that at least 200k died in a single country. Sure we had minimal measures against it compared to others, but that has been in less than a year. That's frightening, and given these CDC reports, suggests the number is even higher. So someone suggesting only 1% of whoever infected died, especially someone who isn't even an expert in any related field and is only performing middle school math on some projections, should not be taken seriously.
 
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Here they are rising , after infections rose and now the dead’s are rising . It s a simple pattern , we have all seen it since March. No fear mongering here, it’s even happening in my own hill billy town 🤣

It’s such a simple pattern, to bad it seems stil to complicated for some 🤡

So simple you can't even link us your evidence.

They're always careful with this information because we won't truly understand this devil for a while. Perhaps not for years, like with the first big SARS (which seems quaint now). From that info: "However, as we explain here, the total number of cases of COVID-19 is not known. That’s partly because not everyone with COVID-19 is tested."

What we do know, however, is that at least 200k died in a single country. Sure we had minimal measures against it compared to others, but that has been in less than a year. That's frightening, and given these CDC reports, suggests the number is even higher. So someone suggesting only 1% of whoever infected died, especially someone who isn't even an expert in any related field and is only performing middle school math on some projections, should not be taken seriously.

I linked you two things, one of them would take you longer than this to fully digest but the evidence is pretty clear.
 

Raven117

Member
The wife from My girlfriends boss who was a denialer got it , not super serious, she is recovered but is tired as fuck 🤣 she can’t function normally yet. Her boss now has changed his mind . Not ending up in hospital can still fuck you up.


Yeah if you are tired for weeks or months and can’t run in nature ...

Better thought of that when you disregarded the rules ...

Now they are stricter ..

#justflubro

🤡
Ha! well....the cases can be pretty mild....the taste/smell thing is weird.
 

Siri

Banned
Alright, my top's about to blow. Justin Trudeau just gave a national address where he invoked the World Economic Forum's "build back better"/"Great Reset," same as Joe Biden, and said we're in the middle of a second wave that could be worse than the first. 'Even if you're in an area with very few cases, download the covid app, your privacy is protected.' Thanksgiving gatherings are already out of the question, but "we might be able to gather for Christmas."

So, based just on a few days of rising cases the entire fall season is now basically under the Canadian government's tyrannical rule regardless of how we handle the virus moving forward.

"Follow the rules and you'll go back to normal" they said. I've only got two words left for the people still buying that load of crap.

This all looks so scripted, pumping up the numbers right before this damned speech with the help of media networks keeping cameras on testing lines all day long.

Do you even look at the news???

Ontario is about to go nuclear - and you’re ranting about conspiracy theories? Are you seriously a Canadian?
 

Joe T.

Member
Do you even look at the news???

Ontario is about to go nuclear - and you’re ranting about conspiracy theories? Are you seriously a Canadian?

"Conspiracy theories"? What are you referring to?

The news and the facts aren't the same. The news intentionally downplays and ignores facts in its stories, you aren't getting the full picture unless you're independently seeking it - there's a good collection of counterbalancing narratives and information here that can help you do that. You're playing the same sensationalist game the news does, "about to go nuclear."

I live in the country's hot spot, you're not going to succeed if you're coming at me with that alarmist attitude.
 

Siri

Banned
I think we should kill the kids to save grandma. Its the only way to be sure. Grandma must live AT ALL COSTS!!!

One of the most sickening and least informed posts I’ve seen in this thread.

The evidence is clear: if you allow the virus to get away the hospitals will be swamped, not just with the elderly, but with people of all ages.

At the height of the first wave in London, people were calling for ambulances, which sometimes took upwards of six hours to arrive. When the paramedics did arrive they would only take people who were virtually unable to breath - if you were borderline then you had to tough it out and hope you didn’t die. This is why London was under lockdown. To allow the hospitals time to recover.

The virus hasn’t altered any. The same thing can and will happen again.
 
H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
The virus hasn’t altered any. The same thing can and will happen again.

You’re right that the virus hasn’t changed, but our understanding of it has. Sadly the politicians have not updated their plans accordingly.

We now know who is vulnerable yet we make EVERYONE lock down, leaving the economy shattered and our governments bankrupt and our children’s and grandchildren doomed.

We now know not to use ventilators. We know not to send the infected into cats homes. We know that cheap steroids can help in treatment and massively reduce the impact. We (the UK) have massively ramped up treatment capacity by building temporary hospitals. It won’t happen again.

Btw re London - I used to work on 999 and can tell you that London ambulances are useless at the best of times, often not picking up the phone for 10 minutes or more. Ambulances would then be very slow to arrive even in emergencies. I wouldn’t recommend living in London to anyone.
 
H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member

Doomed. No jobs, government unable to fund healthcare, education and all the other stuff because they’re utterly skint, etc. Do you not consider that a shit legacy to leave to our children?
 
One of the most sickening and least informed posts I’ve seen in this thread.

The evidence is clear: if you allow the virus to get away the hospitals will be swamped, not just with the elderly, but with people of all ages.

At the height of the first wave in London, people were calling for ambulances, which sometimes took upwards of six hours to arrive. When the paramedics did arrive they would only take people who were virtually unable to breath - if you were borderline then you had to tough it out and hope you didn’t die. This is why London was under lockdown. To allow the hospitals time to recover.

The virus hasn’t altered any. The same thing can and will happen again.
It was sarcasm smart guy.

For somebody so informed, you would think you’d have a better understanding of this. No one think people of “all ages” will be swamping hospitals.

Florida barley closed anything this whole time and has now reopened almost everything. With a state filled with old people. Somehow they’re managing. It’s tough but life is like that.
 

Joe T.

Member
Not shared yet?

I don't know how it all works there, but WTF...



Digital ID alongside vaccinations, spoken out loud by lawmakers and yet somehow still perceived as conspiracy theory.

They scared us silly and continue attempting to scare us silly even after so much has changed for the better so they can implement that plan without mass resistance. Selling us back the idea of safety we gave up earlier this year.
 

Nymphae

Banned

Vox covers an article in Slate about Amazon's Utopia show, here's a bit from the Slate piece on the show:

A group of comic book fans discover an unpublished manuscript for a graphic novel that they believe holds clues about the future, shadowy forces are also looking for the same manuscript, and eventually the comic book fans uncover a global conspiracy. So far, so run-of-the-mill.

But the nature of that conspiracy plays very differently in 2020 than it did in 2013, and the results are catastrophic.As the characters discover, the reason the comic book contains clues to things that haven’t yet happened is that it was drawn by one of the architects of a plan designed to stave off planetary collapse as the population rises and fossil fuels run out. Here’s the plan:
  1. Convince the general public that there is an outbreak of a deadly new virus. To sell the story, poison or otherwise kill people, then attribute their deaths to the phony virus.
  2. Once the fake pandemic is up and running and the public is terrified, announce that there is a vaccine that can defeat the virus.
  3. With the help of global elites, NGOs, and world governments, inject everyone on the planet with this “vaccine” as quickly as possible.
  4. Surprise! The vaccine is designed to permanently sterilize all or all but a certain percentage of the people who take it. Sit back and relax as the global population drops from 7.8 billion to about 500 million in a single generation, ushering in a new era of plenty.
 
Surprise!

This bit is quite scary, it's undeniable. Unless you can see the future, you don't know. "Trust Science" isn't a good enough reason.

Isaac Newton: "I've got a theory, and to test it I'd like you to jump off this tall building. Don't worry, trust me, if I'm right, it'll be good for everyone!"

You think it's a nightmare now? What happens if the surprise is real...?
 

diffusionx

Gold Member


CNN being highly disingenuous. NYC is talking about restrictions in the 9 or so (out of 100+) zip codes that see a large amount of case increase. These happen to be all places where there are lots of Orthodox Jews, the virus spread during their holiday. Something else the media is very very very hesitant to bring up.

The point is they want to paint this second wave narrative and they are lying to do it. None of this is necessary.
 
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Mobile Suit Gooch

Grundle: The Awakening
1601429938763.jpg

Roll Tide.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
They're always careful with this information because we won't truly understand this devil for a while. Perhaps not for years, like with the first big SARS (which seems quaint now). From that info: "However, as we explain here, the total number of cases of COVID-19 is not known. That’s partly because not everyone with COVID-19 is tested."

What we do know, however, is that at least 200k died in a single country. Sure we had minimal measures against it compared to others, but that has been in less than a year. That's frightening, and given these CDC reports, suggests the number is even higher. So someone suggesting only 1% of whoever infected died, especially someone who isn't even an expert in any related field and is only performing middle school math on some projections, should not be taken seriously.

The CDC numbers are, I am assuming, based on documented evidence (i.e. the number of confirmed positive tests and the number of people with COVID-19 listed as the cause or one of the causes of death on their death certificate). I say this because it is presented under a section that says "current best estimate." Here is the criteria they are using for the IFR estimate:

CDC said:
Parameter values for disease severity, viral transmissibility, and pre-symptomatic and asymptomatic disease transmission that represent the best estimate, based on the latest surveillance data and scientific knowledge. Parameter values are based on data received by CDC through August 8, 2020.


Here are the numbers they provide for the infection fatality rates, with the survival rate in parentheses (which is simply 100% - the IFR %):

0-19 years: .003% (99.997% survival rate, meaning that roughly 3 out of every 100,000 who contract the virus will die)
20-49 years: .02% (99.98% survival rate - 2 of every 10,000 will die)
50-69 years: .5% (99.5% survival rate - 1 out of every 200 will die)
70+ years: 5.4% (94.6% survival rate - ~5 out of every 100 will die)

Keep in mind that these fatality rates are not for the cohorts in general, but strictly for those who have been confirmed as COVID positive. So this isn't killing, say, 5% of all people over 70 years of age in this country - it's only killing 5% of those confirmed as having COVID. This is very important to keep in mind, because as incredibly low as these IFR's are for most of the cohorts, even it paints a more dire picture than the reality of the situation if you fail to account for it.

In addition to the raw data compiled and analyzed by the CDC, keep in mind the following facts:

- Not every person who contracted COVID got tested (asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic people may have foregone testing). If the true number of infected people were known, the denominator in the equation would be larger (deaths by COVID / total number of confirmed cases), leading to a smaller IFR.

- It has been documented that medical examiners and physicians have been playing fast and loose with the COD during this pandemic in order to secure gov't funding. That is to say that in at least a certain percentage of cases, COVID was being listed as the primary or secondary COD (and thus counted as part of the IFR) when in fact some other comorbidity was the culprit. Regardless of how prevalent one believes this practice was/is, the result is the same: any number of deaths inaccurately attributed to COVID increases the numerator of the equation. Thus, subtracting them out - again, whatever number of such cases there may be - would decrease the numerator, again leading to a smaller IFR.

- The virus has likely culled much of the "low hanging fruit" in the population - that is, those most susceptible to severe illness and death. Folks in the older cohorts who had numerous comorbidities who contracted the virus likely died, driving up the total death rate. It may very well be that the virus has burned through this vulnerable segment, leaving those better equipped to fight the virus (i.e., with fewer underlying conditions and a relatively healthy immune system) alive to fight another day.

- Treatment modalities continue to improve, and doctors, hospitals and health agencies are (very) slowly coalescing on a standard model of care for COVID patients. This will lower the mortality rate as we move forward, which means that the IFR's noted above likely skew high if we are to apply them prospectively.

So when you look at the data and see that this virus kills only ~1 out of every 10,000 people under age 50 who contract it, and bearing in mind that the numbers likely actually overestimate the real IFR for the reasons cited above, ask yourself: is it worth instituting draconian measures hitherto unseen in history, tanking our economy (possibly for a generation), causing tremendous social unrest, and greatly increasing mental health and addition issues for something that kills ~1 of every 10,000 working age people who catch it? In my calculus, the answer is "probably not." Government policy and countermeasures should be much more targeted, realistic, and tailored to protect the most vulnerable segments of the population.
 
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Joe T.

Member




Is it not time to stop these reflexive responses to our collective stupidity and intolerance of ambiguity and uncertainty and reembrace old-fashioned, basic science–based medicine? Perhaps we might try to study the enemy in depth to discern its weaknesses, signaling and otherwise, before resorting to a series of rigid guidelines based, at this point, on the opinions of self-designated experts in the absence of any solid scientific foundation. Now is the time to devote ourselves to studying the science of this new disease and not just use PCR and antibody-based diagnostics to try and run away from it.

In 1910, Abraham Flexner decried the sorrowful state of medical education and academic medical practice in the United States and its divorce from fundamental scientific principles. This ultimately led to a complete revision of medical education and training based on the direct application of scientific research. More than 100 years later, the COVID-19 epidemic has only deepened his clarion call for reform.

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FireFly

Member
A lot of growing cases is based on backlogs of tests that haven't gone through, this has been linked already in the thread.
Well, the backlog is limited by the number of tests you are able to process at once, so I think it comes back to the same issue. But a good way of cutting through this is to look at the positivity rate. If the increasing cases are due to more tests coming through, then we would expect the positivity rate to be flat, since we are theorizing that it is driven by the inherent "false positivity" rate of the tests themselves.

There is a nice map here:


If you hover over a country like the Netherlands for example, you can see a continuous and smooth increase in the positivity rate, while the actual figures show a huge jump in cases. So this wouldn't support the hypothesis that new cases are coming from increased testing.

Of course you typically find positives following number of tests, but the group of people being tested is also important. Initially, only people could get tested by doctor's order and it was very limited to mostly sick people. But now, where testing is much more widely available, it's a much healthier cohort that's going to be misdiagnosed. At any rate, the testing data is absolute garbage not just because of false positives, but also because we know that cases are vastly more widespread than testing indicates, as shown by every serological survey done thus far, plus the fact that the antibodies don't seem to last too terribly long, leading to even further cases that aren't accounted for, additionally the possibility of widespread or even just significant t-cell reactivity in some populations make the numbers even fuzzier. Additionally, cases are double or triple counted if the tests occur at least 24 hours apart. Now if you were to catch a cold, you wouldn't consider yourself as having a new cold every morning you woke up with it, right? Quite frankly, using this data to determine policy is insane.
I look at it this way: if the patterns of testing are changing; e.g we are testing more people or in a different way, we could expect the figures to change for this reason. But if we are testing in a similar way and we see a big increase in cases, then it indicates a problem. Cases may be vastly more widespread than the amount of testing we are doing, but if we are sampling X proportion of the population every Y time period, we should be seeing broadly similar numbers. That is what happened over summer.
 
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CrapSandwich

former Navy SEAL
I look at it this way: if the patterns of testing are changing; e.g we are testing more people or in a different way, we could expect the figures to change for this reason. But if we are testing in a similar way and we see a big increase in cases, then it indicates a problem. Cases may be vastly more widespread than the amount of testing we are doing, but if we are sampling X proportion of the population every Y time period, we should be seeing broadly similar numbers. That is what happened over summer.

That's not at all what happened. There are 50 different states running their testing regimens in 50 different ways, along with some larger municipalities doing their own thing as well. Many places are now testing for free and available to anyone who wants one. Generally, you are seeing cases track alongside numbers of tests, which makes a kind of obvious sense. So we are not testing x proportion of the population. Factually untrue. Those numbers vary wildly and case numbers always follow. To throw an even bigger wrench into the scenario, the test does not distinguish between live and dead virus, with dead virus lingering in people for weeks or months. That means that as the virus has spread and taken its course in an ever increasing number of people, you're going to see the percentage of false positives increase over time as a greater percentage of people are carrying dead virus. When you take both the increased testing numbers and the increasing percent of false positives into account, it's a wonder that anyone would take case counts seriously at all. It doesn't make any sense. Hospitilizations and deaths are vastly stronger data sets and those have both flattened and remained flat from around end of May/June in most places.
 
At the moment testing with an overloaded testing network and thousands of cases per day is quite useless. I think this would be more useful:
-Test for covid in all hospital admissions
-Everyone is instructed to stay home with symptoms for covid
-Twice a week a random sample is made of 2500 people. 2000 of these will be invited to a test location or testers will come to them. If they agree they will get 50 Euros/Dollars. If they refuse someone from the 500 remaining in the same age group will be asked instead. Use all means to promote participation as a patriotic duty.
-All 2000 are tested with both a PCR test and antibody test

Strong PCR = infected and contagious
Weak PCR and no antibodies: pre- or asymptomatic
Weak PCR and antibodies: has had the disease recently
No PCR or antibodies: not infected or infected a long time ago. If possible do a T-cell immunity test for covid to distinguish between the two

This will give useful data to steer policy rather then testing for its own sake.

If the number of cases drops below a certain level you can go back to testing on demand and on contacts of known cases.
 

FireFly

Member
That's not at all what happened. There are 50 different states running their testing regimens in 50 different ways, along with some larger municipalities doing their own thing as well. Many places are now testing for free and available to anyone who wants one. Generally, you are seeing cases track alongside numbers of tests, which makes a kind of obvious sense. So we are not testing x proportion of the population. Factually untrue. Those numbers vary wildly and case numbers always follow. To throw an even bigger wrench into the scenario, the test does not distinguish between live and dead virus, with dead virus lingering in people for weeks or months.
I wasn't talking specifically about the United States, but in general. We saw case counts stabilise in a number of countries over the summer period and now they are increasing. If the positivity rate is flat, then we can potentially attribute this increase solely to increased testing, but where the rate is increasing (eg. as in a number of European countries), it indicates that increased infection rates are at least partially driving the increase in cases.

That means that as the virus has spread and taken its course in an ever increasing number of people, you're going to see the percentage of false positives increase over time as a greater percentage of people are carrying dead virus. When you take both the increased testing numbers and the increasing percent of false positives into account, it's a wonder that anyone would take case counts seriously at all. It doesn't make any sense. Hospitilizations and deaths are vastly stronger data sets and those have both flattened and remained flat from around end of May/June in most places.
A false positive is when someone who never had the virus registers postive. If you had the virus in the past then that's not a false positive because the test is counting a genuine case. Essentially in this situation you are counting the (currently) Infected and Recovered groups as one. That brings us back to the central question: how quickly is the total number of people who have been infected with the virus (I + R) increasing? Well, if the growth rate of the virus is constant (given constant testing), then then we should be seeing a linear increase in the total number of infected (X new cases per day). We should not be seeing an exponential increase in the number of new cases (number of new cases per day doubles every X time period). So again I think it is fine to use the total number of people who have ever been infected, as long as we are clear we are measuring the growth.

So I actually agree, that we should not be focusing on the absolute numbers, but rather the growth rate, in conjunction with the growth in testing, and the postivity rate.
 

CrapSandwich

former Navy SEAL
I wasn't talking specifically about the United States, but in general. We saw case counts stabilise in a number of countries over the summer period and now they are increasing. If the positivity rate is flat, then we can potentially attribute this increase solely to increased testing, but where the rate is increasing (eg. as in a number of European countries), it indicates that increased infection rates are at least partially driving the increase in cases.


A false positive is when someone who never had the virus registers postive. If you had the virus in the past then that's not a false positive because the test is counting a genuine case. Essentially in this situation you are counting the (currently) Infected and Recovered groups as one. That brings us back to the central question: how quickly is the total number of people who have been infected with the virus (I + R) increasing? Well, if the growth rate of the virus is constant (given constant testing), then then we should be seeing a linear increase in the total number of infected (X new cases per day). We should not be seeing an exponential increase in the number of new cases (number of new cases per day doubles every X time period). So again I think it is fine to use the total number of people who have ever been infected, as long as we are clear we are measuring the growth.

So I actually agree, that we should not be focusing on the absolute numbers, but rather the growth rate, in conjunction with the growth in testing, and the postivity rate.

You're not getting growth from those numbers, is the point. You might be, but you also might not be. New cases could be growing while infections could be dropping. It's bad data and it doesn't necessarily tell you anything.
 

sinnergy

Member
I wasn't talking specifically about the United States, but in general. We saw case counts stabilise in a number of countries over the summer period and now they are increasing. If the positivity rate is flat, then we can potentially attribute this increase solely to increased testing, but where the rate is increasing (eg. as in a number of European countries), it indicates that increased infection rates are at least partially driving the increase in cases.


A false positive is when someone who never had the virus registers postive. If you had the virus in the past then that's not a false positive because the test is counting a genuine case. Essentially in this situation you are counting the (currently) Infected and Recovered groups as one. That brings us back to the central question: how quickly is the total number of people who have been infected with the virus (I + R) increasing? Well, if the growth rate of the virus is constant (given constant testing), then then we should be seeing a linear increase in the total number of infected (X new cases per day). We should not be seeing an exponential increase in the number of new cases (number of new cases per day doubles every X time period). So again I think it is fine to use the total number of people who have ever been infected, as long as we are clear we are measuring the growth.

So I actually agree, that we should not be focusing on the absolute numbers, but rather the growth rate, in conjunction with the growth in testing, and the postivity rate.
Great posts , and sadly that’s what’s happening here in The Netherlands, even now in my small town , we are in the top of the country, sadly . New measures are now active and more will follow to reduce infections.

Fall is going to be interesting to say the least.
 

sinnergy

Member
You're not getting growth from those numbers, is the point. You might be, but you also might not be. New cases could be growing while infections could be dropping. It's bad data and it doesn't necessarily tell you anything.
Better save than sorrow, because we saw the new case numbers rise first not exponentially at first but after 2 weeks they rise exponentially and now hospitalizations are rising quickly , so quickly that we get another conference and they are spreading patients over other hospitals in the country , even stopping regular care for patients and sadly dead numbers are also rising.
 
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FireFly

Member
You're not getting growth from those numbers, is the point. You might be, but you also might not be. New cases could be growing while infections could be dropping. It's bad data and it doesn't necessarily tell you anything.
If the infection rate is dropping then the positivity rate should be falling, and increases in cases should become increasingly proportional to increases in test capacity. But if you see test capacity increasing by 50% say, but the number of cases has quadrupled and the positivity rate is also going up, it indicates that new cases are being driven by an increasing infection rate.

The fact that data requires analysis doesn't make it "bad" or "useless".
 

CrapSandwich

former Navy SEAL
If the infection rate is dropping then the positivity rate should be falling, and increases in cases should become increasingly proportional to increases in test capacity. But if you see test capacity increasing by 50% say, but the number of cases has quadrupled and the positivity rate is also going up, it indicates that new cases are being driven by an increasing infection rate.

The fact that data requires analysis doesn't make it "bad" or "useless".

Not if the percent of false positives is also rising due to dead virus from an old infection being counted as a new infection. This isn't terribly complicated.
 

FireFly

Member
Not if the percent of false positives is also rising due to dead virus from an old infection being counted as a new infection. This isn't terribly complicated.
Suppose no new infections are being created. Then whenever you test you will only see the remnants of old cases. That means the number of positive cases in each test will be fixed, based on the number of historical infections.

You can keep testing as much as you want, but a similar proportion of your tests will come up positive, since the total number of cases in the population isn't changing – where total cases = new infections + old infections.

Hopefully this illustrates that the only way total cases can rise is if we get new infections.

So if you think about it, getting more of these "false positives" (old cases that are no longer active) reflects greater incidence of the virus in the population. And, the rate at which that incidence is changing is the growth rate. So we can still measure the growth rate of the virus, even using a test that detects old infections.
 

CrapSandwich

former Navy SEAL
Suppose no new infections are being created. Then whenever you test you will only see the remnants of old cases. That means the number of positive cases in each test will be fixed, based on the number of historical infections.

You can keep testing as much as you want, but a similar proportion of your tests will come up positive, since the total number of cases in the population isn't changing – where total cases = new infections + old infections.

Hopefully this illustrates that the only way total cases can rise is if we get new infections.

So if you think about it, getting more of these "false positives" (old cases that are no longer active) reflects greater incidence of the virus in the population. And, the rate at which that incidence is changing is the growth rate. So we can still measure the growth rate of the virus, even using a test that detects old infections.

I think the thing you're missing here is that testing numbers vary wildly and you're suggesting you can draw current conclusions from old data. Plus, the theoretical you're putting forth doesn't apply, because it's the opposite of what's actually happening and what's actuallly happening cannot be omitted from the conversation, unless you hope to draw a conclusion that's only relevant to your theoretical, non-existent scenario. This isn't hard to get--the virus spreads wider and wider, infecting more people as it goes. The infection runs its course in each person, meaning an increasingly greater percent of people are carrying dead virus. A few of those people get tested, and the virus is no longer a new case, but it's presented as such. The case data gets more and more skewed the further we go down this road because some varying percent of those "increasing" case numbers are going to be anywhere from days to weeks to months old and not indicative of the current reality. So if you see a bump in rising cases, it could mean cases rose 3 months ago, or they could be currently rising, or maybe somewhere in between. A portion or entirety of case increases will be explained by expanded testing as well, unless it's not, because it could also be correlated to increased infections. I don't think you're seeing the complexity of the number of possible scenarios and why having faulty data means you can't be so sure that these simplified data actually paint an accurate picture. And if they're not accurate, they shouldn't be taken as especially meaningful. I don't know if I can explain this any simpler, but I'm afraid you're going to have to work this one out on your own, if you're not getting it at this point.

This isn't even getting into the folly of trying to obliterate what is most likely an extremely contagious virus that's already spread throughout the world. The Economist just put together an article collecting all the serological studies and currently available data and this combined data puts the virus' overall infection fatality rate at about .15 percent. All of efforts to stamp it out are causing catastrophic health, mental health, and economic consequences that aren't being given much measure in comparison. Clearly, mitigation strategies are important for vulnerable people, but for everyone else, the cure has become vastly worse than the disease. So in a sense, most of our efforts have gone towards strategies that have prolonged the virus cycle, maximized pain along the way, failed to protect the vulnerable in the process, and probably been as big of a shit show as it could have been. But even if we were to see rising cases and know for a fact that that is what was happening, it doesn't necessarily present a problem. The virus working its way through the healthy and burning itself out would be vastly beneficial to almost everyone involved, especially in comparison to the largely irrational and ineffective course things have taken over the past 9 months.
 

Arimer

Member
Well it finally got me. I’m positive wirh covid today after starting to feel like I had a flu last night. Currently in the bath tub trying to warm up cause so far the worst part is freezing. Stay safe everyone.
 
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