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[Lime]

A bit melodramatic But a really good post nonetheless.

One thing stands out to me about ME3.

The ending invalidates everything you accomplished in both ME1 and ME2 and the first 40hours-ish of ME3. It really does, it simply makes everything you did irrelevant in 5 minutes.

It really is quite an accomplishment. It's probably one thing that Bioware or at least Mac Walters will forever be known for. It's almost like they had to do it intentionally in order for 5 minutes to dismantle everything that has been done 90 hours+ before that.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Someone made a really good post over at BSN...

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul.

Are you kidding me.... really?
As Jeremy said in his video " I would be fine if that was one of the endings.... one of the bad endings"

It elevates NOTHING

 

[Zomba13]

Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

Pretty much how I feel about the ending. I understand a sad ending but one where nothing we did every really mattered when we were promised it would really is a kick to the balls.

 

[DTKT]

To be fair, Shepard did help to slap Sovereign around, and it was pointed out that the Reapers took great interest in that fact and that's why they put Shep in their sights.

Yeah, I mean if you want to get all in-universe about it, without Shepard, the Reapers would have won right at the end of ME1. He is the only reason why the universe is still there. Makes sense that the Reapers would be interested in something the defies them.

 

[ProtoCents]

I'm sure they do, I can't imagine anyone there wants to make anything bad and I would say they were very successful with ME3. It's just that some members of the team with more power thought they were being clever without thinking things through, and it's coming back to haunt them. Will be interesting to see how they deal with the backlash, I hope they have learnt from how they handled the fallout from Dragon Age 2 with Bioware being condescending.

While I'm sure you're right this game was too apparent with the fact that AAA developers don't always go the extra mile to make their product great. I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware looked at something they wanted to do, things that might have made the game great or much more alive, and just cut them in early stages.

Have your personnel war assets chill on your ship with dialogue options? Nah, we're just going to put them in a menu with a quick bio. Have the war assets support you during the final battle? While there are great cutscenes... no one is anywhere to be found in the actual fight. And would doing this sell extra copies of the game? Not at all, so why do it? How does a developer get the incentive to go all out and make a game that delivers in the franchise's biggest moment instead of falling flat?

 

[sflufan]

A bit melodramatic But a really good post nonetheless.

One thing stands out to me about ME3.

The ending invalidates everything you accomplished in both ME1 and ME2 and the first 40hours-ish of ME3. It really does, it simply makes everything you did irrelevant in 5 minutes.

Which is why people are having such difficulty accepting that all of their time (and apparently emotional) investment in the game was ultimately for naught.

Hell, I'm pretty sure I've seen all the stages of grief represented.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

Someone made a really good post over at BSN...

As someone whose greatest weakness in writing is being too verbose, even I would be wary about posting something that long. It's clearly an essay and not a post, and would be better served as a thread started link or first post. I agree with the general sentiment, but he (or she) starts to get a little too full of themselves.

 

[rififi]

yeah, I think Bioware chooses to make the conversation as easy as possible. There're never any meaningful repercussions for your choice, and if you wanted to be paragon, you pretty much click upper right or anything blue.

Deus Ex HR, Alpha Protocol, and even Dragon Age 1 (I haven't played Witcher 2 yet...I need to) have conversation systems that go beyond Boy Scout or Dirty Harry, Good or Evil, etc.

Wasn't the original ME1 conversation system from the e3 2006 demo supposed to have options like threat, bribe, persuade, subtle facial movements, etc?

I don't remember the final convo system in ME1, but here was the original demo (too much nostalgia for me): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Li2MIGxOww
conversation demo starts at 1:20

 

[Enduin]

Are you kidding me.... really?
As Jeremy said in his video " I would be fine if that was one of the endings.... one of the bad endings"

I've had better storytelling from books without false endings

I believe that statement is predicated on the idea that Shepard would break the holds of indoctrination, waking up in London and then future DLC would continue the story from there and deliver a proper ending. Not simply end the series with Shepard as a reaper husk or indoctrinated puppet.

 

[firehawk12]

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

Oh fuck off. I DON'T WANT YOUR FANFICTION.

 

[Zomba13]

Also makes a point I agree with on the indoctrination theory. That's partly why I want it to be true or Bioware to run with it even if it wasn't intended (but they tell us that it was). It would have been such a ballsy move and so genius.

Sadly it won't ever happen and Bioware instead decided to piss on the efforts of fans in three different colours.

 

[kai3345]

how do you increase galactic readiness without playing multiplayer?

 

[Derrick01]

Someone made a really good post over at BSN...

Great post and I hope they listen to it.

Also one thing I should add that really there's no true happy ending. Even if Shepard and his entire crew lived and the relays didn't blow up, you have pretty much every species' homeworld and countless other planets completely devastated. Probably billions dead, economies and fleets shattered. You have the likely possibility that everyone in the Citadel is dead from it being moved to Earth and the air systems stopped.

So really you can make everyone in the crew live and still show that your victory wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. You just need to have writers that know how to show that.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Also makes a point I agree with on the indoctrination theory. That's partly why I want it to be true or Bioware to run with it even if it wasn't intended (but they tell us that it was). It would have been such a ballsy move and so genius.

Sadly it won't ever happen and Bioware instead decided to piss on the efforts of fans in three different colours.

Even if it does happened... scars never heal

 

[firehawk12]

Also makes a point I agree with on the indoctrination theory. That's partly why I want it to be true or Bioware to run with it even if it wasn't intended (but they tell us that it was). It would have been such a ballsy move and so genius.

Sadly it won't ever happen and Bioware instead decided to piss on the efforts of fans in three different colours.

It's not ballsy at all. It's lazy science fiction writing.

Then again, maybe that's par for the course at BioWare and on the internet.

how do you increase galactic readiness without playing multiplayer?

You buy the iOS game.

 

[DTKT]

Thing is, a well realized and thoughtful "bleak" ending would have been fine. Of course, you don't want to make everything that the player did irrelevant but you could have shown the cost!

But a good bleak ending is hard to realize and doesn't fit with the tone of the series. ME has always been "light-hearted" sci-fi. The first more-so but it never made the switch into "oh god we don't know shit about space oh god reapers everyone is dead".

Shepard always won. :|

I wanted him to win. I didn't want him to just make everything worthless. Because that's all that's left of the ME universe.

how do you increase galactic readiness without playing multiplayer?

2 other options. Buy the Infiltrator App(TPS with poor aiming mechanics and a "heh" story). Or download the Datapad app for IOS.

The Datapad is free but the increase in GR are minimal. It's a simple system where you send fleets to systems in the Galaxy. Each system corresponds to an area on that map. Each system has 3 tiered missions. There is no gameplay, you simply tap on that mission and a fleet is sent. Takes about 6 hours per system but the increase is a little over 3%. Takes a long time to grind. There is an upgrade system but it's severely limited and kind of pain in the ass. Also, it runs like shit on my iTouch 3gen.

Or, on PC, you can mod the .ini in order to fake the GR. Not sure how though.

 

[mercenar1e]

the only thing that ending elevates is my sack on Biowares face!

 

[firehawk12]

But a good bleak ending is hard to realize and doesn't fit with the tone of the series. ME has always been "light-hearted" sci-fi. The first more-so but it never made the switch into "oh god we don't know shit about space oh god reapers everyone is dead".

I dunno. Without the context of Star Trek 3, do you consider Star Trek 2 a bleak ending?

 

[kai3345]

You buy the iOS game.

lulwut

 

[firehawk12]

lulwut

What did you expect? A Facebook game?!

 

[Karak]

Great post and I hope they listen to it.

Also one thing I should add that really there's no true happy ending. Even if Shepard and his entire crew lived and the relays didn't blow up, you have pretty much every species' homeworld and countless other planets completely devastated. Probably billions dead, economies and fleets shattered. You have the likely possibility that everyone in the Citadel is dead from it being moved to Earth and the air systems stopped.

So really you can make everyone in the crew live and still show that your victory wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. You just need to have writers that know how to show that.

Agreed. Still can't wrap my head around their idiotic idea that Shepard living is BAD and that is because it would be a GOOD ending.

But as someone on BW forums stated. "There is every indication they don't know how to write that or are not skilled enough to handle the intricacies of it." So ditch what is hard and randomly put some shit on the screen with fancy colors.

 

[EatChildren]

That BSN post leads me to believe that even if BioWare hear and respond to the criticism it's the specifics that I don't necessarily agree with that they'll be responding to. Or, to put it simply, though I can appreciate that fan's concerns his/her's are not my own and I think they're missing the point.

Misery/bleakness/death etc etc isn't, in my opinion, the core of this problem. The problem is the contrived, pointless and tacky execution of a transparent ending. It's not that Shepard died, or that the relays were destroyed. It's that these events are poorly excused by a badly written narrative. It's not that our war assets amounted to 'nothing' in the sense that we were supposed to carve our way through the Reapers, it's that they weren't represented in any way at all. The lingering consequences of your decisions throughout the series being overridden by a miserable state of the galaxy are less of a problem than the fact that the game basically forgets about your decisions all together.

At least, that's what my problem is. I can deal with the relays being destroyed and I can deal with establishing a new direction for the franchise (even if it isn't ideal). But I don't like the culmination of a trilogy worth of choices coming down to Red, Green or Blue, while deus ex machina space Casper barks nonsensical metaphysical dribble.

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

Yup, the DLC was rage inducing though. I recommend everyone just to play the core game(the dlc that's meant for the core game is fine as well). Ignore DAII. DA:O has a nice complete self contained story.

Witch Hunt was ok from a story POV and provided closure if your Warden romanced Morrigan though, in that at least your Warden could basically walk off into the sunset with her. Thats about the only reason to get that DLC though.

The most unintentionally funny thing in the game for me was when Shepard yells out "STEEEEVE!" in probably the most dramatic tone he's ever sounded.

Haha- yes, that was so out of place.

I also liked how during Shepard's last big rallying speech to the squadmates in London, there was some completely random, generic NPC soldier standing with everyone. Just some complete nobody amidst everyone else. WTF

 

[DTKT]

I dunno. Without the context of Star Trek 3, do you consider Star Trek 2 a bleak ending?

I don't know. I never watched the movies.

 

[kai3345]

What did you expect? A Facebook game?!

No. I expected to be able to achieve the best ending possible when I'm not online.

 

[firehawk12]

That BSN post leads me to believe that even if BioWare hear and respond to the criticism it's the specifics that I don't necessarily agree with that they'll be responding to. Or, to put it simply, though I can appreciate that fan's concerns his/her's are not my own and I think they're missing the point.

Misery/bleakness/death etc etc isn't, in my opinion, the core of this problem. The problem is the contrived, pointless and tacky execution of a transparent ending. It's not that Shepard died, or that the relays were destroyed. It's that these events are poorly excused by a badly written narrative. It's not that our war assets amounted to 'nothing' in the sense that we were supposed to carve our way through the Reapers, it's that they weren't represented in any way at all. The lingering consequences of your decisions throughout the series being overridden by a miserable state of the galaxy are less of a problem than the fact that the game basically forgets about your decisions all together.

At least, that's what my problem is. I can deal with the relays being destroyed and I can deal with establishing a new direction for the franchise (even if it isn't ideal). But I don't like the culmination of a trilogy worth of choices coming down to Red, Green or Blue, while deus ex machina space Casper barks nonsensical metaphysical dribble.

I think the bigger problem is that it adds on to a hokey bad ending with an even hokier ending.

At this point, you could say that when the Citadel explodes, Shepard is actually transported back in time. The video at the end with her breathing is when she wakes up on Earth in 2012 and she has another 200 years to help prepare for the fight against the Reapers.

Of course, this is why I have started to hate modern science fiction. We've moved away from being about ideas and exclusively toward gimmicks.

 

[Lime]

I don't understand why they would want to "reboot" or alter the universe this drastically, when Casey himself says that they won't make a game post-ME3. If you aren't going to make a game beyond ME3, why change it so drastically? It doesn't make any sense and it seems like everyone is on drugs at Bioware.

 

[Rebel Leader]

For those who believe in the indoctrination theory

If they release the DLC FOR free or pay, will you ever buy a bioware game so soon?

 

[firehawk12]

I don't know. I never watched the movies.

Damn. lol

No. I expected to be able to achieve the best ending possible when I'm not online.

That's a good one!

 

[SerArthurDayne]

That BSN post leads me to believe that even if BioWare hear and respond to the criticism it's the specifics that I don't necessarily agree with that they'll be responding to. Or, to put it simply, though I can appreciate that fan's concerns his/her's are not my own and I think they're missing the point.

Misery/bleakness/death etc etc isn't, in my opinion, the core of this problem. The problem is the contrived, pointless and tacky execution of a transparent ending. It's not that Shepard died, or that the relays were destroyed. It's that these events are poorly excused by a badly written narrative. It's not that our war assets amounted to 'nothing' in the sense that we were supposed to carve our way through the Reapers, it's that they weren't represented in any way at all. The lingering consequences of your decisions throughout the series being overridden by a miserable state of the galaxy are less of a problem than the fact that the game basically forgets about your decisions all together.

At least, that's what my problem is. I can deal with the relays being destroyed and I can deal with establishing a new direction for the franchise (even if it isn't ideal). But I don't like the culmination of a trilogy worth of choices coming down to Red, Green or Blue, while deus ex machina space Casper barks nonsensical metaphysical dribble.

I mostly agree with you, but I also think the bleakness of the ending is a problem, mainly because it trashes the universe.

Also, I want a superhero Shepard ending, because to me that is what the tone of the series has always been. Superhero that will get it done in amazing fashion, with some loss along the way.

 

[Karak]

I don't understand why they would want to "reboot" or alter the universe this drastically, when Casey himself says that they won't make a game post-ME3. If you aren't going to make a game beyond ME3, why change it so drastically? It doesn't make any sense and it seems like everyone is on drugs at Bioware.

And with that...I am out

Because ya. Exactly ya.

It was stupid and I think they will grasp for straws for a long time.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Someone made a really good post over at BSN...

Have a link to the thread?

 

[kai3345]

That's a good one!

So you're seriously not joking? In order to achieve the game's best ending I literally have to be connected to the internet.

 

[Karak]

Also, I want a superhero Shepard ending, because to me that is what the tone of the series has always been. Superhero that will get it done in amazing fashion, with some loss along the way.

Ya ludicrous to think that it wouldn't work or fit. Its been rewritten already by fans tons of times with very fitting, succinct and useful results. It is not rocket science. But I do somewhat agree that, they seem to not even understand. There is the very real possibility that they are so wrapped up in their past successes(sales, journalists love, and so forth) that they think everyone else is wrong.

 

[firehawk12]

So you're seriously not joking? In order to achieve the game's best ending I literally have to be connected to the internet.

Well, if you've been reading the thread, it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[SerArthurDayne]

I have heard you get more points for war assets in a new game plus and on harder difficulties.

Enough to get 4000 without multiplayer? I don't know.

 

[BuckRobotron]

You buy the iOS game.

The Mass Effect 3 Datapad that boosts readiness (slowly) is free. The other app that details the development is what apparently costs $2.99.

 

[Lime]

I mostly agree with you, but I also think the bleakness of the ending is a problem, mainly because it trashes the universe.

And it doesn't make any sense to trash the universe, when they aren't even going to make future games in it, according to Hudson.

 

[sflufan]

Have a link to the thread?

Honestly, it's a far too self-pitying.

 

[firehawk12]

I have heard you get more points for new game plus and on harder difficulties.

Enough to get 4000 without multiplayer? I don't know.

I played on Insanity, did 99% of the fetch quests, and only got 3500 when I was at 50%.

 

[DTKT]

So you're seriously not joking? In order to achieve the game's best ending I literally have to be connected to the internet.

Best ending is a misleading appellation. Currently, the "best" endings is the Destroy option. That's when you see Shepard at the end.

But really, you should go for it anyway. They are all disappointing in their own ways. There is no "best" ending. Just slight variations on a single one.

 

[Rokam]

I have heard you get more points for war assets in a new game plus and on harder difficulties.

Enough to get 4000 without multiplayer? I don't know.

I didn't get any extra assets for NG+

 

[hateradio]

No. I expected to be able to achieve the best ending possible when I'm not online.

I wish they would patch it to make the default 70% or higher, plus some side quests that affect it, too.

I'm also assuming that they'd add some DLC that would increase it. >>

 

[Rebel Leader]

I played on Insanity, did 99% of the fetch quests, and only got 3500 when I was at 50%.

I've got about the same.
Normal difficulty (non NG+)

 

[EatChildren]

I think the bigger problem is that it adds on to a hokey bad ending with an even hokier ending.

At this point, you could say that when the Citadel explodes, Shepard is actually transported back in time. The video at the end with her breathing is when she wakes up on Earth in 2012 and she has another 200 years to help prepare for the fight against the Reapers.

Of course, this is why I have started to hate modern science fiction. We've moved away from being about ideas and exclusively toward gimmicks.

Basically yes. The complaint that ending is miserable is missing the point, the point being the ending itself is a pure rich, creamy shit smoothy of awful writing, thematic inconsistencies and embarrassingly out of place metaphysical mumbo jumbo, topped with zero closure of any kind on any subject (other than the specific Reaper threat) with a healthy dose of additional speculation and mystery for good measure.

It's just...shit. Utter shit. Everything from the floating platform point onwards needs to be completely scrapped for a new ending to be actually good.

I don't understand why they would want to "reboot" or alter the universe this drastically, when Casey himself says that they won't make a game post-ME3. If you aren't going to make a game beyond ME3, why change it so drastically? It doesn't make any sense and it seems like everyone is on drugs at Bioware.

Because the goal was, as apparent by Walters' notes, to harbour speculation and mystery. Like, that was it. Leave people thinking and wondering and pondering and knowing nothing. They probably wanted to tap into the creativity of the fans with their drawings, stories, and speculation, hoping that leaving the universe in this state would appease them.

Speaks volumes about their intentions. No closure at all, just speculation.

I mostly agree with you, but I also think the bleakness of the ending is a problem, mainly because it trashes the universe.

Also, I want a superhero Shepard ending, because to me that is what the tone of the series has always been. Superhero that will get it done in amazing fashion, with some loss along the way.

Ideally both endings, superhero and bleak, would be options. Like some of the fan cuts: an ending where you manage to defeat the Reapers, survive, and rejoice, and an ending where your colossal failure to build an army and bad diplomacy give the Reapers the winning advantage.

 

[Zeliard]

That BSN post leads me to believe that even if BioWare hear and respond to the criticism it's the specifics that I don't necessarily agree with that they'll be responding to. Or, to put it simply, though I can appreciate that fan's concerns his/her's are not my own and I think they're missing the point.

Misery/bleakness/death etc etc isn't, in my opinion, the core of this problem. The problem is the contrived, pointless and tacky execution of a transparent ending. It's not that Shepard died, or that the relays were destroyed. It's that these events are poorly excused by a badly written narrative. It's not that our war assets amounted to 'nothing' in the sense that we were supposed to carve our way through the Reapers, it's that they weren't represented in any way at all. The lingering consequences of your decisions throughout the series being overridden by a miserable state of the galaxy are less of a problem than the fact that the game basically forgets about your decisions all together.

At least, that's what my problem is. I can deal with the relays being destroyed and I can deal with establishing a new direction for the franchise (even if it isn't ideal). But I don't like the culmination of a trilogy worth of choices coming down to Red, Green or Blue, while deus ex machina space Casper barks nonsensical metaphysical dribble.

Haha yeah. I like the Mass Relays being destroyed as a concept because it puts every race basically back to square one. It's fucked up, of course, but the only reason they ever had the Mass Relays in the first place is because it was an insidious Reaper trick. So it's only fitting that they no longer have access to that stuff when the Reapers' plan is finished. They're no longer under the influence of the Reapers, and all that it comes with.

I agree that the execution could have been much better. The ending felt like it went by too quickly. If they were insistent on having the final A.I. represented by some all-powerful kid, and for the "final battle" to boil down to a decision, the conversation with him should have been longer and much more meaningful. Something approaching Fallout 1's final battle where you basically shame the last boss to death. You should have been able to talk some serious smack to the kid about how terribly wrong he is about everything.

 

[indigo-cyclops]

Wasn't the original ME1 conversation system from the e3 2006 demo supposed to have options like threat, bribe, persuade, subtle facial movements, etc?

I don't remember the final convo system in ME1, but here was the original demo (too much nostalgia for me): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Li2MIGxOww
conversation demo starts at 1:20

God damn that seems like a different game.

 

[DTKT]

Ya ludicrous to think that it wouldn't work or fit. Its been rewritten already by fans tons of times with very fitting, succinct and useful results. It is not rocket science. But I do somewhat agree that, they seem to not even understand. There is the very real possibility that they are so wrapped up in their past successes(sales, journalists love, and so forth) that they think everyone else is wrong.

I hope that's not true.

I don't want to believe that a large group of human beings capable of creating amazing moments (Liara "Time Box" moment, Mordin's death, any moments with Tali :3) are subject to such a disconnect.

 

[bigace33]

Someone made a really good post over at BSN...

This nearly brought a tear to my eye. Too bad EA and Bioware will just brush it to the side, or not even look at it. What a shame. I have yet to touch the game again since finishing it, and under normal circumstances, I would be knee deep in another play through from the beginning. I just can't shake this feeling like I've been gipped by Bioware.

 

[FullMetalx]

I don't understand why most reviewers said this was a "satisfying" ending. Almost no one is satisfied.