Empty Space
Member
Do those people not realize that's just a Matrix reference? The game is full of goofy references.
Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE
- Thread starter XANDER CAGE
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XANDER CAGE
Member
The fact that the character's name is "Joker" because he makes a lot of jokes is apparently lost on them.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Roll credits!
I just finished up an eight hour gaming session. Like I said in the other thread, this is one of a VERY select few that has made me do such a thing. I haven't put put more than a few hours into a game in a single sitting in years and years. Game was phenomenal. And honestly, I didn't mind the ending. I actually... please don't kill me... thought it was pretty damn decent.
That said... I think I fucked up. I got to talking with the boy/catalyst, and he said I could choose to only kill the synthetic life. But then I walked around, and couldn't do anything other than shoot the glass... which seemed to imply, in the cutscene following, that everyone - even my organic friends - were killed. Did I miss something? I know there are "choices", but how do you do them? I would have preferred the option that was described rather than everyone dying. Eh, I can re-visit that part tomorrow; and I know I'm gonna be playing the game again here real soon.
Anyway, I'm too tired to write up my thoughts right now. I'll do that later. But for now, I'll just say I'm extremely satisfied.
I just finished up an eight hour gaming session. Like I said in the other thread, this is one of a VERY select few that has made me do such a thing. I haven't put put more than a few hours into a game in a single sitting in years and years. Game was phenomenal. And honestly, I didn't mind the ending. I actually... please don't kill me... thought it was pretty damn decent.
That said... I think I fucked up. I got to talking with the boy/catalyst, and he said I could choose to only kill the synthetic life. But then I walked around, and couldn't do anything other than shoot the glass... which seemed to imply, in the cutscene following, that everyone - even my organic friends - were killed. Did I miss something? I know there are "choices", but how do you do them? I would have preferred the option that was described rather than everyone dying. Eh, I can re-visit that part tomorrow; and I know I'm gonna be playing the game again here real soon.
Anyway, I'm too tired to write up my thoughts right now. I'll do that later. But for now, I'll just say I'm extremely satisfied.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Bahahaha so did I, really bad.
I have been contemplating what ME3 has done to my love for the series. The first game had it all for me, and replaying it a bit last night just hits close to home. There were a lot of things I liked in all games, and I will replay 3 once more to try out different things. I refuse to fully contend that the endings we got are the right ones.
The most disappointing thing for me was the party members.
Never liked ash/kaiden, vega is just the stereotypical macho mexicano soldier, and EDI just feels wierd and out of place.
Javik is cool.
The returning characters are great. Loved Garrus/Tali/Liara. Nobody returned from 2, super disappointing considering I thought the party members were more intriguing. Legion and Mordin (still can't accept that he died) should have been in the party.
Also the order in which you acquire party members is way too linear. You don't even get tali until you're near done with the game.
I liked the arcs, specifically the quarian/geth conflict and resolution. I felt so bad for the geth after going through their consensus.
The endings were another disappointment. I would have liked the destroy reaper option if it didn't include the destroy geth part.
Completely agree with this.
The squad in ME3 should have been:
Javik (NOT as DLC but as a main character)
Liara
Tali
Garrus
Legion
Mordin
Samara
Miranda
Nice and even on the biotics/tech front with a good mix of characters.
They are controlled by a singular central intelligence (the catalyst) that was designed to preserve organic life, likely by an ancient organic civilisation or splinter group. This isn't stated, but I think it's a logical step to take based on what we're told. Reapers are a system with a specified purpose, nothing more.
The ending should've ended at where Shepard and Anderson were dying/sitting on the platform looking at Earth. They could've then faded into a CG or w/e where the crucible activates and kills all the Reapers. Honestly this is a much more satisfactory ending that the crap that popped out of nowhere.
The Xtortionist
Member
There's a ton of class overlap there with Tali/Mordin, Garrus/Legion and Liara/Samara. No pure soldier class either.
I think the denouement with the catalyst had potential that was ultimately squandered. It would have been a much more successful finale to the series if:
1) The silly synthesis ending didn't exist and the choice was clearly "do you think the reaper solution is valid or do you think it should end, with the consequences that brings?"
2) There was more of a precedent for the stated problem of synthetics wiping out organics in the series. Maybe the synthetics in the prothean cycle could have been explored a little more in the main story rather than just as a conversation with a DLC squadmate. Maybe EDI could have gone rampant. I agree that the synthetics v organics problem does seem to come out of nowhere, which is a shame, as it's an interesting idea at it's core. Maybe the ending could have been changed so that the reapers simply stop civilisation from advancing to the point where it can build apocalyptic weaponry capable of wiping out all of reality or something.
3) A little more information was given regarding the creation of the catalyst and the cycle that it was created in, basically, the context which led to the reaper "solution" being created.
I think if they'd rectified these points it would have been a fantastic ending.
Bioware didn't seem to mind about class overlap in ME2. There are only 6 after all. Besides it could easily be solved by giving some characters more utility-centric powers, for example:
Liara:
Singularity
Stasis
Warp Ammo
Warp
Samara:
Reave
Dominate
Shockwave
Throw
SoulUnison
Banned
This is exactly what I was expecting the entire game. One of the other definitions of a Crucible is a metallic container used to melt together different substances. The second I realized that I was waiting the entire game for a "Stop building this NOW!" option.
I thought the entire galaxy was being tricked into building some giant, perfected version of the Human-Liquifiers from the Collector Base in ME2.
I was expecting the twist to be that the Crucible *had* been finished before - maybe countless times - and it was the cycles that managed to finish it that were destroyed by being "assimilated" instead of just being outright vaporized.
Bruce Lee Kicks
Member
Hm. That would be something else...if only Bioware thought like this.
tearsofash
Member
I haven't beaten it yet, but I have to post somewhere about how cool that Rannoch mission was where Shepard gets hooked up to the geth network. Felt like Tron or something.
Bruce Lee Kicks
Member
I need to close this "Indoctrination/Hallucination Theory" tab, this stuff is making a little too much sense...
because even if synthetics did not advance under reaper watch, organic tech would. if organics can create weapons capable of destroying reapers, you only need one low tech synthetic breakout and suddenly the reapers lose all control.
Yep. The ending may be underdeveloped and seem out of place, but people trying to poke holes in the logic of the reaper "cycle" are fighting a losing battle. It's sound.
edit: on another note, I hope we can all agree that this game easily had the best score in the entire series. This track, god, this track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESALWTWHUeI
heliosRAzi
Banned
So the Catalyst says that synthetics will always rebel against their creators. We've all said how stupid and out of left field that was especially given the geth/quarians. But I overlooked something: the Reapers were making the geth smarter. For a force that is pretty hellbent on keep synthetics from arising in the first place (by stupidly destroying organics) they sure have a weird way of going about things.
I'm actually angered at how much better an ending based around that would have been. It even works with all the Prothean lore surrounding it - they didn't complete it, so they wouldn't have known, and they weren't turned into a Reaper either.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
You want it to make sense.....You need it to make sense
HarryHengst
Member
Well, it kinda makes sense to destroy all spacefaring races. Its a bit like removing weeds from a garden, so other plants can grow and bloom. Except humanity + the other species are considered weeds by the Reapers, which is something we dont really like.
Can you say you are being... indoctrinated by it? :lol
if the krogan or rachni conquered a cycle, they'd just be slaughtered and the reapers would wait for the next set of races to evolve. no organic race is going to genocide all other organic races, the top dog needs to eat after all.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It's not that the Reapers saw organics as weeds. They don't want organics developing synthetics. What people have said earlier is that the Reapers are synthetic and are destroying organic life and they are also aiding other synthetic life in destroying organic life.
No synthetic race is going to genocide all organic races either, Reapers and Geth being prime examples.
HarryHengst
Member
But thats why they cull spacefaring races: because those have the capability of creating synthetic life that could destroy all life. During the destruction of the Protheans the Asari, Salarians and humans were spared, because they werent evolved enough. The Reapers destroy the most advanced races so the upcoming species have a chance to develop without being wiped out by synthetics.
I've been reading it and while most it makes sense, the one thing i fail to understand is, if its hallucinated, how Shepards decision can have an effect in the real world.
heliosRAzi
Banned
They have a chance to develop into an advanced race that will be mercilessly slaughtered by a race of machines. Their reason is circular since they are synthetic themselves. And they only believe synthetics will destroy all life despite the geth being reasonable and EDI.
The reapers aren't just some synthetic race though are they, they're a system designed with the explicit purpose of preserving organic life by exercising restraint. The geth are far more primitive than the hypothetical "all-dominating" synthetics that the reaper cycle was created to prevent.
the difference between peaceful coexistence and joining up with genocidal machine gods was 0.00001
you just need one synthetic species getting it in their head to destroy all life and it will happen. synthetics do not depend on life and they have all the time in the world to purge planets down to the last microbe. a 'krogan like' synthetic race would be the death of everything.
the reapers are not the death of everything.
HarryHengst
Member
The Geth being reasonable now isnt really proof, not on the timescale the Reapers work. There is peace between the Geth and Quarians for what, a few weeks perhaps? EDI was the Lunar AI in ME1 who went rogue and killed a lot of things, so thats also not really a strong case.
Come on guys, apply some critical thinking skills. Yes the ending is a convoluted mess, but that doesn't mean that the entire thing is stupid and illogical. The purpose of the reapers, despite coming out of nowhere from a narrative perspective, does make sense. I've yet to see a single argument that convinces me otherwise.
Bruce Lee Kicks
Member
HarryHengst said:
Lol...I just might be.
According to that thread, it's symbolic of Shepard either breaking free from indoctrination (Destroy), becoming fully indoctrinated (Control), or aiding in indoctrinating the galaxy (Synthesis).
I really do. I'm not bothered by the fact the ending is "bad," I'm bothered by it not making any sense at all.
How is Shepard still alive?
How did Anderson even get atop the Citadel?
Why'd my squad leave me?
How is the entire galaxy not destroyed, when it's proven (by the events of the Arrival) that if a Mass Relay blows up, the system it's in is wiped out?
(sigh) I'm going to bed.
The Xtortionist
Member
Right, 10,000 years down the line there could easily be a synthetic race far more powerful and hostile than the Geth.
the reapers dont want to save all organics, they want to save organics.
they did not kill protheans to save protheans, they killed protheans to save the asari, humans, turians, salarians, etc.
the reapers will kill asari, humans, turians, salarians, etc. to save species like the Yahg.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Peace is peace, man. The fact that the geth didn't even start the war should be proof enough. They didn't even wipe out the quarians even though they could. And EDI is an unshackled AI built from the homicidal Lunar AI. She has had numerous opportunities to kill the crew but didn't and hasn't.
It doesn't change the fact that the Reapers were making the geth even more deadly by upgrading them. And what do they do with synthetic life anyway? The Reapers only seemed to be concerned with organics. Why kill organics when they can just destroy synthetic life? As machine gods they should've been able to keep the galaxy in a dark age. Why create the relays and let organics travel thereby exchanging knowledge that could create AI? There were ways of during this that didn't involving genocide.
These questions have been answered a couple of times already in the last couple of pages of this thread.
1) Synthetic life from previous cycles no longer exists so it's reasonable to assume that the reapers also destroy synthetics. Since this isn't evident in ME1-ME3 maybe the reapers turn on synthetic life once they've wiped out advanced organic civilisations. This would make sense, as advancing organic civilisations are the ticking time bomb the reapers were designed to stop and thus the priority. Using synthetics to speed up this process where possible makes complete sense. Less work for the reapers to do (synthetics already created aren't going to get more advanced whereas advancing organic civilisations would be able to create more advanced synthetics if the reapers focused on the synthetics first). Assuming that the geth are far too primitive to be of concern (as stated in ME1), making them more powerful to hasten the extinction of the quarians is just part of the plan.
2) If the reapers just killed synthetic life, organic civilisation would be allowed to develop unabated, becoming more and more advanced. Even if their synthetic creations were periodically wiped out by the reapers, a time would eventually come where, because organic civilisation had become more advanced than it was when the reapers were created, its synthetics would be more powerful than the reapers, and the reapers would be unable to destroy them and thus prevent them from eradicating all organic life.
3) Multiple races developed artificial intelligence independently (quarians, humans etc) so being able to travel doesn't necessarily hasten the development of synthetics. Additionally, the mass relays causes civilisations to develop along predictable lines. That way, the reapers can predict how often galactic civilisation needs to be culled to prevent a synthetic singularity (in this case, 50,000 years)
from their perspective, thats what they're doing.
HarryHengst
Member
Why the relays and the Citadel are created was explained by Sovereign in ME1: it was to make sure they developed along the path the Reapers wanted. By making sure the intergalactic society was build around the need for the relays and centralize the government in the Citadel it was easier to shut it all down.
The game goes into great exposition to show that Geth are only reacting to survive, are open to peace with the Quarians and, as has already been said, didn't exterminate them when given the chance. EDI shows as and example that even a homicidal AI can redeem itself.
Those are the more important examples you have on the series about this AI/organic conflict until the last 15 minutes. Both show that while synthetics can be dangerous, the issue is not that simple. Then comes hologram-kid and the theme changes. From out of nowhere he says his solution doesn't work anymore (why the hell not? Shepard is almost dead, just hit him and reapers will do their thing) so it gives you three space magic options: either control the reapers, and who heck knows what will happen, force every being in the galaxy to change into something else or kill the reapers but.. ops, those two examples of redemption in AI? Yeah, they're gone to. And in all choices, the mass relays are gone any may or may note have taken several system with them.
And all of this because of some magic device, the Crucible, that several cycles designed even without knowing what it does, and it interfaces with something that no one knew it was there. Nevermind the fact the at least the last cycle were taken by surprise by the reapers and we were lucky to have a little warning on this one. Finally, as other have said, if the hologram-kid was in the citadel all along, why didn't he open the relay at the end of first game again?
At least for me, even if individually some of these themes and events could make sense, when you put all together it becomes a mess (way to many plot holes), and that is my biggest problem with endings.
EDIT: Forgot about the relays exploding.
Those are the more important examples you have on the series about this AI/organic conflict until the last 15 minutes. Both show that while synthetics can be dangerous, the issue is not that simple. Then comes hologram-kid and the theme changes. From out of nowhere he says his solution doesn't work anymore (why the hell not? Shepard is almost dead, just hit him and reapers will do their thing) so it gives you three space magic options: either control the reapers, and who heck knows what will happen, force every being in the galaxy to change into something else or kill the reapers but.. ops, those two examples of redemption in AI? Yeah, they're gone to. And in all choices, the mass relays are gone any may or may note have taken several system with them.
And all of this because of some magic device, the Crucible, that several cycles designed even without knowing what it does, and it interfaces with something that no one knew it was there. Nevermind the fact the at least the last cycle were taken by surprise by the reapers and we were lucky to have a little warning on this one. Finally, as other have said, if the hologram-kid was in the citadel all along, why didn't he open the relay at the end of first game again?
At least for me, even if individually some of these themes and events could make sense, when you put all together it becomes a mess (way to many plot holes), and that is my biggest problem with endings.
EDIT: Forgot about the relays exploding.
HarryHengst
Member
I find the whole story Legion shows you pretty suspect. It shows only one side of the conflict, which is the side Legion/Geth want you to see.
The Librarian
Banned
Yup. To add to this, how did the races across the cycles manage to keep the Crucible secret? How is that only organics found it and not the Reapers?
The Catalyst's reasoning for the Reapers' existence doesn't make any sense. It comes out of nowhere.
Edit: Even if it does make sense, it conflicts with the themes of the prior games, ESPECIALLY the first one. There is no foreshadowing that there's a galactic problem between synthetics and organics at all. Not to mention the Catalyst could just kill Shepard at any moment. It still works.
We have now way of knowing that peace with the geth and EDI would be sustainable. Additionally, the synthetics that are of concern to the reapers are probably far more advanced than the geth. These are potential explanations of that problem.
However, one thing that occured to me recently is that, the idea that synthetics will always turn on their organic masters doesn't even have to be necessarily true for the purpose of the reapers to make sense, all that matters is that the person or organisation that created the reapers believed that this was true, and the cycle makes sense if that's the problem it was designed to prevent. Who knows, maybe in the civilisation where the reapers were created, they were created by some kind of fascist terrorist group or mad scientist that despised synthetic life and felt that organic life was under threat (irrespective of whether it actually was or not). We have no way of knowing.
Come to think of it, especially considering the backlash directed towards the ending, I can see future mass effect games being set during this time, during the genesis of the reapers. That could be quite interesting.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I think I should the question of why would synthetics destroy organic life? The times we encounter AI they are acting in self-defense. As for the AI in Jarvik's cycle, given their imperialistic tendencies, the Protheans most likely started that war. One of the many problems with the ending is that we don't get to converse with the Catalyst and know more about its reasons for its solution. It doesn't counter the peace between the geth and the quarians. It doesn't say anything about EDI. It just tells us that synthetics will destroy all life and that's it.
I think that's a cop out. There's a lot we don't know the future can hold. The peace between the quarians and the geth could end up like the Culture for all we know. Good job, Reapers, we could have been living in a utopia by now if it weren't for you guys.
An interesting theory, but that's even more of a reason to be able to bring up the geth and EDI. Show the reapers that peace can be attained between synthetics and organics.
I think this discussion proves one thing: that the ending is completely disconected from the whole narrative and we have to assume a lot of things that may or may not be there for it to make any sense at all. It might have fit into some other universe, but in Mass Effect it just feels out of place.
dragonelite
Member
We already knew that the Quarians started the war was explained in ME 1 i believe or the journal. Something about one of the Geth asking "Why do i exist?" and the Quarians reacted in panic they aren't suppose to ask those questions time to kill them off.
I completely agree with you there. I'm not defending the ending, I thought it was pretty messy and could have been handled a lot better. But at the same time I can see a good idea at the heart of what bioware was trying to do with it, that didn't necessarily come to fruition, which is a shame. It's just irritating though when people write off every part of the ending as being stupid and not making any sense just because as a whole it was jumbled and unfocused, when that's not necessarily the case.
FieryBalrog
Member
So the hypothetical destruction of organic life by synthetics must be prevented by actually destroying most organic life... by synthetics.
C'mon guys, apply some critical thinking skills!
Yes, we don't know if peace and co-existence with Geth and EDI is sustainable. We also don't know if it won't. It will not be simple in either case, but then again, so will be the peace between Turian, Krogan and Salarian, so that is not exclusive to synthetics.
However, at the end of the three games, if you did "everything right", you have a future that while not certain, points to a way where we have the Geth not rampaging anymore and EDI having a kind of admiration for organics. If your ending goes against all of this, I think it should at least be addressed, specially since this is an interactive experience.
Even on the interesting theory that the Catalyst is just plain wrong, following an agenda or just simply lying to you, since it can go against our recent experiences, it should have addressed in the final choices.
One other thing I forgot to mention. I think if Bioware was going to make such an event that completely changes the galaxy like the relays blowing up, it probably would be better to make the beginning of the next game, and not the conclusion of trilogy... at least then we would see what they were thinking instead of just "trust us and our plans".
However, at the end of the three games, if you did "everything right", you have a future that while not certain, points to a way where we have the Geth not rampaging anymore and EDI having a kind of admiration for organics. If your ending goes against all of this, I think it should at least be addressed, specially since this is an interactive experience.
Even on the interesting theory that the Catalyst is just plain wrong, following an agenda or just simply lying to you, since it can go against our recent experiences, it should have addressed in the final choices.
One other thing I forgot to mention. I think if Bioware was going to make such an event that completely changes the galaxy like the relays blowing up, it probably would be better to make the beginning of the next game, and not the conclusion of trilogy... at least then we would see what they were thinking instead of just "trust us and our plans".
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