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[ShockingAlberto]

The game doesn't make it clear that what happens to them with the Citadel is the same thing as the Arrival. I would assume it's not.

I think it's far more likely they just didn't remember that quirk they wrote or it was not communicated up the chain.

 

[LiK]

The darkspawn and corruption are secretly caused by ancient Reaper tech that was buried deep underground in whatever planet DA takes place on.

Quarians evolved into Dark Elves...fuck

 

[Carbonox]

Oh, and Bioware has confirmed that all the endings do lead to a Galactic Dark Age, so that's not just fans speculating.

They did? Or am I missing a joke here.

 

[erpg]

That's different, Ridley Scott didn't get to decide the first time.

Changing it to align with artistic intent is not 'fixing' it based on the will of the audience.

So how about Kingdom of Heaven, where Ridley Scott simply didn't have the running time to make a sensible movie. Who's to say Bioware wasn't rushed by the leak or EA or Walters?

 

[DTKT]

I keep hearing that Bioware or someone somehow has officially disproven the indoctrination theory.

Where? When?

Bullshit. This is still the absolute best and most believable explanation still going, and I would bet $1000 right now that is what is actually going to be proven as to what happened.

*blows cigarette smoke and walks away from the holo terminal*

Have you read the "Final Hours" app? There is nothing there about indoctrination and we have the design plan for the ending.

It was drawn on a napkin.

The final line was : "LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE"

That's all the indoctrination theory. It was born out of a terrible ending and created piece by piece from fans who just didn't believe that Bioware could mess that an ending that badly.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Arrival happens regardless of whether you played it or not. It's why you're on lockdown at the beginning of the game.

So I killed 400,000 people..... Without actually killing 400,000 people?

 

[Complistic]

I keep hearing that Bioware or someone somehow has officially disproven the indoctrination theory.

Where? When?

Bullshit. This is still the absolute best and most believable explanation still going, and I would bet $1000 right now that is what is actually going to be proven as to what happened. You disappoint me, Shepard.

*blows cigarette smoke and walks away from the holo terminal*

They're referring to a third party app documentary where I think Mac said they cut out a section of gameplay where shepard looses complete control of his body due to indoctrination.

As if that quote somehow disproves the entire theory.

 

[Zeal]

The ipad app making of me3 thing.

Sorry, but is there a Youtube link, article or something floating around then? I just want to hear them say that "he wasn't indoctrinated. we put the starchild fucker in there just for the lulz."

They're referring to a third party app documentary where I think Mac said they cut out a section of gameplay where shepard looses complete control of his body due to indoctrination.

As if that quote somehow disproves the entire theory.

Oh thank you, now I know what they are talking about. That disproves jack shit. I listened closely to that and they said they removed a GAMEPLAY sequence of it because it was too difficult for the player and didn't really work.

If anything, that should reaffirm that indoctrination was the original intention anyway, and that instead they simple used a cinematic to allude to and show it.

Which they did.

 

[Eusis]

The Citadel explodes, though. So the people living on there, who probably number in the millions, are pretty much fucked.

They were probably fucked beforehand, otherwise why not fight to reclaim it and open the arms themselves? Assuming there wasn't collectively stupidity to not attempt communication at all (or there was an evacuation before the Citadel was claimed, whichever.)

 

[Blue Ninja]

They were dead when the reapers took over anyways. Probably.

You see the lights of traffic during the final Citadel segments, though. Some people are still trying to get out of there.

Lolol, they got nuked.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

See how far this attitude gets you, please.



The mass relays are destroyed in every ending, so you can't choose an ending that does not wipe out all life.

Not true, it only destroys at most, the solar system it resides in

 

[StuBurns]

So how about Kingdom of Heaven, where Ridley Scott simply didn't have the running time to make a sensible movie. Who's to say Bioware wasn't rushed by the leak or EA or Walters?

Then sure, but it still won't be to appease the people complaining. If it happens to be what they want, fine.

However, that wouldn't happen. There's a history of 'director's cuts', there's money in the process, directors are held in high regard, their artistic vision is cared for. That isn't true of ME3, if it was rushed or not.

It's hard to say, I can't imagine no one on the staff cared about revealing Tali's face in a meaningful way, I'm sure many of them are as disgusted with the laziness of photoshopping some google image result as any of us are. It smacks of serious time or monetary limitation, I don't believe they simply don't care.

 

[UnluckyKate]

The mass relay in the Sol System is behind Pluto right ? In Arrival, the destruction of the mass relay wipes half of the system. So Earth and the armada would be safe. Still, stuck in Sol.

 

[Lime]

That's different, Ridley Scott didn't get to decide the first time.

Changing it to align with artistic intent is not 'fixing' it based on the will of the audience.

So your argument is that only the artistic intent allows for going back and altering the original product? May I ask for an explanation or an argument for why only artistic intent is able to motivate such an alteration in contrast to an audience-motivated one?

Entertainment products like Mass Effect aren't sacred, nor is there any singular artistic vision behind it, as evidenced by the many empirical data we've got from interviews, developer blog posts, the recent Final Hours, etc.

 

[Complistic]

Sorry, but is there a Youtube link, article or something floating around then? I just want to hear them say that "he wasn't indoctrinated. we put the starchild fucker in there just for the lulz."




Oh thank you, now I know what they are talking about. That disproves jack shit. I listened closely to that and they said they removed a GAMEPLAY sequence of it because it was too difficult for the player and didn't really work.

If anything, that should reaffirm that indoctrination was the original intention anyway, and that instead they simple used a cinematic to allude to and show it.

Which they did.

On Deciding the End of the Game
The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'

In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending.

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices).

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9999272

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Bullshit. This is still the absolute best and most believable explanation still going, and I would bet $1000 right now that is what is actually going to be proven as to what happened. You disappoint me, Shepard.

*blows cigarette smoke and walks away from the holo terminal*

You can't really make a bet that it something for the ending can still be proven. Bioware can add anything they want at this point and it does not necessarily have to jive with what the game has already established. I could put forth the theory that Magical Space Child was the young form of Kaiden (or tomboy Ashley) and it was Shepard's PTSD causing him to hallucinate all of it. If Bioware decides to make that the real ending, am I right despite totally making it up whole cloth?

The design document for the ending was in the Final Hours app. It does not mention or even hint at indoctrination. The ending is, on it's face, exactly what you have seen on the screen, no more, no less. Whether Bioware goes back and says "Haha, despite all that, it was totally indoctrination!" is not really the debate as it does not seem they had intended for it to be so from the getgo, regardless of what they say now.

If they do go back and make indoctrination the ending, then I am not sure that Bioware co-opting fan theories for writing their games is necessarily something to be smug about.

 

[Eusis]

You see the lights of traffic during the final Citadel segments, though. Some people are still trying to get out of there.

Huh, didn't notice/forgot that. Still, it doesn't look the same as it did before, maybe the lights are something else altogether.

 

[Patryn]

They did? Or am I missing a joke here.

Not a joke. Confirmed on Twitter, and I believe it's mentioned on the infamous notes of Mac Walters that spawned SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE.

BTW, those notes also confirm they were never thinking Indoctrination Theory for the ending.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

Hahaha. Do explain.

No they don't. When you're talking to vent god, he acknowledges nothing. An effective transcription of his conversation could be:

"Hey dude, I know you spent three games building relationships and alliances to get here, but lol, fuck that. You made peace with the geth and EDI? Lol, fuck that, synthetics are bad. Here's three choices, which color do you like best? Pick one, and then I'll blow everything up. Because fuck everything. Oh hey, Joker's in a mass relay. Why? Fuck that. Here's the credits."

Obviously I didn't explain myself clearly. I meant story wise. The people that survived, the alliances you made, etc... still exist at the end. Just because they don't show it in an epilogue doesn't deny their existance.

All life is wiped out? Are you sure you played mass effect 3?

I think it's the worst ending. Both synthetics and organics are killed. Nobody survives in the Normandy.

(Top right)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPelM2hwhJA

See how far this attitude gets you, please.

The mass relays are destroyed in every ending, so you can't choose an ending that does not wipe out all life.

http://i.imgur.com/e1fZt.jpg

The Citadel IS a relay and it's destroyed when the crucible fires but (depending the ending) life on earth is not wiped out. If you actually watch the endings, it seems that the other mass relays overload when relaying the crucible energy and that's why they're broken. They don't explode like the alpha relay in Arrival.

 

[Sojgat]

I keep hearing that Bioware or someone somehow has officially disproven the indoctrination theory.

Where? When?

Bullshit. This is still the absolute best and most believable explanation still going, and I would bet $1000 right now that is what is actually going to be proven as to what happened. You disappoint me, Shepard.

*blows cigarette smoke and walks away from the holo terminal*

It is the most elegant theory, and while I really like it:

 

[Alucrid]

You see the lights of traffic during the final Citadel segments, though. Some people are still trying to get out of there.

Lolol, they got nuked.

I chalk that up to reusing assets, being lazy, not checking, not caring or a combo of the above.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

I chalk that up to reusing assets, being lazy, not checking, not caring or a combo of the above.

No somehow it must prove that Shepard was indoctrinated

 

[rififi]

The mass relay in the Sol System is behind Pluto right ? In Arrival, the destruction of the mass relay wipes half of the system. So Earth and the armada would be safe. Still, stuck in Sol.

While this seems like a possibility, this doesn't explain why Joker and the rest of the Normandy crew (who were on earth) are trying to escape the blast.

 

[Complistic]

You can't really make a bet that it something for the ending can still be proven. Bioware can add anything they want at this point and it does not necessarily have to jive with what the game has already established. I could put forth the theory that Magical Space Child was the young form of Kaiden (or tomboy Ashley) and it was Shepard's PTSD causing him to hallucinate all of it. If Bioware decides to make that the real ending, am I right despite totally making it up whole cloth?

The design document for the ending was in the Final Hours app. It does not mention or even hint at indoctrination. The ending is, on it's face, exactly what you have seen on the screen, no more, no less. Whether Bioware goes back and says "Haha, despite all that, it was totally indoctrination!" is not really the debate as it does not seem they had intended for it to be so from the getgo, regardless of what they say now.

If they do go back and make indoctrination the ending, then I am not sure that Bioware co-opting fan theories for writing their games is necessarily something to be smug about.

They wouldn't have to go back and make it the ending since it's entirely plausible it is already. Just because they don't come out and tell you doesn't mean it's not true.

I'm sure this has been posted before but it does a good job. Leaves out some bits like shepards eyes changing color (to match indoctrinated Saren and IM) if you go merge or control but oh well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbghjn7_Byc&feature=g-u-u&context=G296b84aFUAAAAAAABAA

 

[Derrick01]

I chalk that up to reusing assets, being lazy, not checking, not caring or a combo of the above.

Which seems most likely at this point. They were either extremely rushed at the end there or they just got really really lazy.

 

[Blue Ninja]

I chalk that up to reusing assets, being lazy, not checking, not caring or a combo of the above.

Regardless, either they're already dead, or they're going to die in the next ten minutes.

 

[Lime]

Interesting that the Indoctrination theory is being awoken again, despite the obvious falsification.

THE CYCLE CONTINUES.

 

[Sojgat]

Sorry, but is there a Youtube link, article or something floating around then? I just want to hear them say that "he wasn't indoctrinated. we put the starchild fucker in there just for the lulz."




Oh thank you, now I know what they are talking about. That disproves jack shit. I listened closely to that and they said they removed a GAMEPLAY sequence of it because it was too difficult for the player and didn't really work.

If anything, that should reaffirm that indoctrination was the original intention anyway, and that instead they simple used a cinematic to allude to and show it.

Which they did.

hey, I hope you are right. I would like that very much. Indoc 4 life.

 

[Alucrid]

Regardless, either they're already dead, or they're going to die in the next ten minutes.

I wonder if that girls parents ever arrived

 

[Sir Garbageman]

From the Bioware boards:

 

[heliosRAzi]

From the Bioware boards:

Change the letters to RGB

 

[LiK]

From the Bioware boards:

lol

 

[Patryn]

Obviously I didn't explain myself clearly. I meant story wise. The people that survived, the alliances you made, etc... still exist at the end. Just because they don't show it in an epilogue doesn't deny their existance.

The alliances don't matter because galactic unity has been destroyed. It'll take decades to get from one system to another, and the entire fleet you brought is now trapped on Earth, destined to die horrible deaths from starvation.

There are power vacuums everywhere, as all the leaders on the Citadel are either dead or on Earth, along with the Primarch and Wrex. Think about the chaos Tuchanka must be in.

The Quarians and Turians can't eat Earth food, so they're almost certainly destined to die. In addition, you've denied Rannoch the resources of the Quarian ships that went to Earth, so who knows how well that project will go.

Thessia and Palavan are in ruins, and may lack the materials to rebuild. All the major planets that are dependent on their colonies will probably be facing shortages in both food and materials. Billions will die.

Pretty much the only people in a decent position are probably the colonies, but they'll likely have to face increased piracy as people try to get what they need.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

I wonder if that girls parents ever arrived

She arrived to them

 

[StuBurns]

So your argument is that only the artistic intent allows for going back and altering the original product? May I ask for an explanation or an argument for why only artistic intent is able to motivate such an alteration in contrast to an audience-motivated one?

It's not an 'argument', I'm not saying they can't, I'm saying I would think less of them if they did.

 

[RyanardoDaVinci]

BJK;ADGUIPBASBIFGIAupgf aegbuio[agabyipabyhipfdgvbyipafvlaggvbujRIPGBFBRFVBYIAEVYHIP ABYIPHVAH;



Who's the stupid shit-sucking cunt fuck that designed this fucking anime ballerina asshole!? I'm gonna sodomize them with a splintery baseball bat wrapped in barbed-wire if I ever meet them.

I have never seen something so unfair/unbalanced in my life. A fucking enemy that cannot be stopped, constantly running AND SHOOTING at you ALL THE FUCKING TIME! Shields are down in 0.10sec and health in 0.01 after that. Stupid fucking design to have an enemy that never gets stunned no matter what you do to him.

And you have to fight his fucking butt-buddies when his bitch ass has to take a breather, and of course, they all focus on you because your 2 other teammates don't exist. Then in the 3rd round you have to fight his 2 cunts that move just like he does, constantly advancing on your position and never flinching when shot.

Real genius decision to put every fucking action on the X button, by the way!

Stand and fight? Die.
Take cover? Die.
Climb out of cover to avoid a grenade? Die.
Do anything? Die.
Bioware? DIE DIE DIE FUCKING CUNTS!

Spoiler

Yes. I mad. I very mad.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

that's a very rude post

 

[heliosRAzi]

BJK;ADGUIPBASBIFGIAupgf aegbuio[agabyipabyhipfdgvbyipafvlaggvbujRIPGBFBRFVBYIAEVYHIP ABYIPHVAH;



Who's the stupid shit-sucking cunt fuck that designed this fucking anime ballerina asshole!? I'm gonna sodomize them with a splintery baseball bat wrapped in barbed-wire if I ever meet them.

I have never seen something so unfair/unbalanced in my life. A fucking enemy that cannot be stopped, constantly running AND SHOOTING at you ALL THE FUCKING TIME! Shields are down in 0.10sec and health in 0.01 after that. Stupid fucking design to have an enemy that never gets stunned no matter what you do to him.

And you have to fight his fucking butt-buddies when his bitch ass has to take a breather, and of course, they all focus on you because your 2 other teammates don't exist. Then in the 3rd round you have to fight his 2 cunts that move just like he does, constantly advancing on your position and never flinching when shot.

Real genius decision to put every fucking action on the X button, by the way!

Stand and fight? Die.
Take cover? Die.
Climb out of cover to avoid a grenade? Die.
Do anything? Die.
Bioware? DIE DIE DIE FUCKING CUNTS!

Spoiler

Yes. I mad. I very mad.

Anger phase, clearly

 

[Last Hearth]

The darkspawn and corruption are secretly caused by ancient Reaper tech that was buried deep underground in whatever planet DA takes place on.

Golden City = Citadel

Old Gods = Reapers

Darkspawn=indoctrinated people.

 

[dragonelite]

The alliances don't matter because galactic unity has been destroyed. It'll take decades to get from one system to another, and the entire fleet you brought is now trapped on Earth, destined to die horrible deaths from starvation.

There are power vacuums everywhere, as all the leaders on the Citadel are either dead or on Earth, along with the Primarch and Wrex. Think about the chaos Tuchanka must be in.

The Quarians and Turians can't eat Earth food, so they're almost certainly destined to die. In addition, you've denied Rannoch the resources of the Quarian ships that went to Earth, so who knows how well that project will go.

Thessia and Palavan are in ruins, and may lack the materials to rebuild. All the major planets that are dependent on their colonies will probably be facing shortages in both food and materials. Billions will die.

Pretty much the only people in a decent position are probably the colonies, but they'll likely have to face increased piracy as people try to get what they need.

This..
It doesn't matter if the energy released kill the people directly or not.
The galactic infrastructure is destroyed. I would almost call it a scorched earth victory or how it is called.

 

[firehawk12]

DA2 has an even worse ending than ME3.

How is that even possible? Is Hawke INDOCTRINATED as well?

Also, the best thing to come out of this thread is EDI camel toe, surely. Stay classy, BioWare.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

This..
It doesn't matter if the energy released kill the people directly or not.
The galactic infrastructure is destroyed. I would almost call it a scorched earth victory or how it is called.

I don't think it makes sense for it to destroy the reapers but leave the relays alone. The galaxy will just have to man up and build their own relay network.

 

[dragonelite]

How is that even possible? Is Hawke INDOCTRINATED as well?

Also, the best thing to come out of this thread is EDI camel toe, surely. Stay classy, BioWare.

Is Space casper also in DA 2?

I don't think it makes sense for it to destroy the reapers but leave the relays alone. The galaxy will just have to man up and build their own relay network.

And how are we going to do that. Without Mass relays we need to use to redistribute resources and scientist around. The damage and a broken infrastructure i wouldn't be surprised if the races went back to nomadic lifestyle.

 

[Last Hearth]

It's not an 'argument', I'm not saying they can't, I'm saying I would think less of them if they did.

I'd think more of them if they did. It's called copping to a mistake and fixing it.

 

[Carbonox]

The alliances don't matter because galactic unity has been destroyed. It'll take decades to get from one system to another, and the entire fleet you brought is now trapped on Earth, destined to die horrible deaths from starvation.

There are power vacuums everywhere, as all the leaders on the Citadel are either dead or on Earth, along with the Primarch and Wrex. Think about the chaos Tuchanka must be in.

The Quarians and Turians can't eat Earth food, so they're almost certainly destined to die. In addition, you've denied Rannoch the resources of the Quarian ships that went to Earth, so who knows how well that project will go.

Thessia and Palavan are in ruins, and may lack the materials to rebuild. All the major planets that are dependent on their colonies will probably be facing shortages in both food and materials. Billions will die.

Pretty much the only people in a decent position are probably the colonies, but they'll likely have to face increased piracy as people try to get what they need.

I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of new war is instigated where the various races fight to find new territory if they can't return to their own planets in the near future.

Or Earth is used as the new Citadel, with the races who still remain near Earth getting their own chunk of land on the planet. Earth turns in to a beacon of galactic unity because of what happened, etc. Then everyone works together to slowly but surely 'recapture' or 'rediscover' new planets and places to settle in an outwards and gradual motion.

Bah, this is going in to shoddy wishful thinking/fan fic garbage now. :lol

I'd still much prefer to see a new galaxy. There's fuck all left to really do in the Milky Way as we've seen/done it all.

 

[Doublesith]

Other stuff from the app some might find interesting:

- The longer conversation with Anderson as he dies was cut at Hudson's insistence, as he felt the scene dragged. Walters wanted to keep it.

- ME1's original concept was that humans were the genetically engineered slave class of a vanished creator race called the Nazari.

- The original player character was Anderson, not Shepard. The PC was modeled as a space Jack Bauer

- Saren was the original antagonist, but he lead an army of batarians (a race of small, bat-like creatures) instead of Geth.

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qobhDJ_vEOc This video inspired the overarching storyline after Watamaniuk started playing it at team meetings:

At first its repetitious annunciations were absurd and funny, but eventually the team began to think about its implications. Was Raymond Kurzweil right? Within 30 years could we really reach the point of singularity where man and machine are indistinguishable?

If that crucible is forthcoming, the tension between organic and syntehtic life could be an appropriate theme to frame the SFX trilogy. "When you think about it, any civilization out there that's more advanced than ours is probably peaceful," says Hudson. "everyone has to go through the crucible of developing nuclear weapons and either destroying themselves or passing through that." At a high level, Mass Effect could be the story of the next crucible a civilization faces, when technology rivals organic life.

 

[Sojgat]

BJK;ADGUIPBASBIFGIAupgf aegbuio[agabyipabyhipfdgvbyipafvlaggvbujRIPGBFBRFVBYIAEVYHIP ABYIPHVAH;



Who's the stupid shit-sucking cunt fuck that designed this fucking anime ballerina asshole!? I'm gonna sodomize them with a splintery baseball bat wrapped in barbed-wire if I ever meet them.

I have never seen something so unfair/unbalanced in my life. A fucking enemy that cannot be stopped, constantly running AND SHOOTING at you ALL THE FUCKING TIME! Shields are down in 0.10sec and health in 0.01 after that. Stupid fucking design to have an enemy that never gets stunned no matter what you do to him.

And you have to fight his fucking butt-buddies when his bitch ass has to take a breather, and of course, they all focus on you because your 2 other teammates don't exist. Then in the 3rd round you have to fight his 2 cunts that move just like he does, constantly advancing on your position and never flinching when shot.

Real genius decision to put every fucking action on the X button, by the way!

Stand and fight? Die.
Take cover? Die.
Climb out of cover to avoid a grenade? Die.
Do anything? Die.
Bioware? DIE DIE DIE FUCKING CUNTS!

Spoiler

Yes. I mad. I very mad.

Both times I played this sequence I killed (well knocked down) kai leng and still had to keep fighting one of his ninja assistants for 10 seconds. It's a pretty poor boss fight, gutting him with my omniblade was worth it though.

 

[MechaX]

I don't think it makes sense for it to destroy the reapers but leave the relays alone. The galaxy will just have to man up and build their own relay network.

With... what resources exactly?

Hell, even the Asari with all of its prothean knowledge at the height of its civilization didn't think building their own relays was feasible.

 

[Derrick01]

- The original player character was Anderson, not Shepard. The PC was modeled as a space Jack Bauer

This should have happened.

"WHERE IS THE CONDUIT?" *stabs detainee in leg*

 

[UnluckyKate]

While this seems like a possibility, this doesn't explain why Joker and the rest of the Normandy crew (who were on earth) are trying to escape the blast.

Agreed. It's left with all the other unexplained things. But I was just pointing out that the mass relay explosion woudln't have kill the armada in the Sol. Although, it might have vaporized a couple of homeworld in other systems