Some of the stuff with the renegade shep stuff is uneasy as hell. The normally shitty dream sequences has Eve saying stuff about how courageous you are for her race and stuff, when you know what you did to her race.
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Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow
- Thread starter Patryn
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Some of the stuff with the renegade shep stuff is uneasy as hell. The normally shitty dream sequences has Eve saying stuff about how courageous you are for her race and stuff, when you know what you did to her race.
Psychoward
Banned
Yeah, and since I shot Ashley and let Kaidan die on Virmire it had both of their lines.
How did I not realize this was possible? One of these days I'm gonna do an everyone-dies run, should be cool.
edit - ah, nevermind, I misread the Ashley part
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Crucible is the giant machine the alliance is making based off every cycle's "progress into developing a machine that can beat the reapers"
The catalyst is the "missing ingredient that no one knows exactly what it is or what it does, but we know it's necessary to make the crucible work".
I don't really have "favorites" but meeting Thane would be up there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67efxBqiTq0
Psychoward
Banned
RedRedSuit
Member
I still remember that scene. Just bleeds atmosphere, like most stuff on Ilium.
It still bugs me that you can make anything and not know something on how it works. Especially a big thing that is just as big as a mass relay.
dilatedmuscle
Member
I think its obvious that the existing ending makes no sense on purpose. We are not supposed to be witnessing Shepard, we are supposed to play the role of Shepard. Essentially, we are Sheppard and it not making sense is because Shepard (you) are being indoctrinated. How could the final 10 minutes be so chock-full of plot-holes? Are the Bioware writers really that dumb after years of creating a rich, engrossing, story? I doubt it, i believe it was intentional to create that connection with the character and the player, Shepard was being fooled by the Reapers there for we were being fooled by the Reapers. Its not just an "AHA!" moment in the game. We are currently still fooled because of the lack of closure. It has had time to sink in and have more effect.
The rumors stating that there will be DLC that will have more closure and have a true ending also stipulate that the DLC will be free.
Its not as simple as "it was all a dream" its has been a process of nuances and clues over the 3 games that we didnt notice. So many hints and clues that were right under our noses. This has been careful planning not just a B.S. ending put together simply for them to say "haha it was all a dream" it was more than that. The developers played with the psychology of the gamer using the Paragon and Renegade themes that we easily associate with. The split personalities, the colors of the two indoctrination options (blue, paragon) and the destroy option (red, renegade). Many of us were essentially subconsciously manipulated by the Reapers to make the choices we made.
Im sure this video is a repost but pay attention to the visual clues. Some people disregarded the video because of the editing, supposedly its taken out of context and misleading but they simply added audio clues from the franchise to further prove their point of the hints of indoctrination throughout the franchise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck
and an article
http://uninhibitedandunrepentant.tumblr.com/post/19344938387/mind-holy-fuck
The Codex in Mass Effect 1 description about Indoctrination pretty much word for word described actions and symptoms Shepard ended up doing and experiencing. Do you think that is simply some BS "haha it was all a dream" B.S. or do you see how it has been part of the story since Mass Effect 1? A DAMN RANDOM CODEX! it has been right under our noses along with an array of cues and clues.
I'm probably going to get flamed here but seriously it makes so much sense this way. How much sense did Metal Gear Solid make? very little to none until the final pieces of the puzzle were put together and things were explained and the same thing happened here. The puzzle has been put together by people who put together the Indoctrination Theory and it blew my mind, now we just need the final piece of the puzzle which will come in DLC. If the DLC is free then, to me, the ends justified the means because i went from "meh" to "WOW" after going over the Indoc Theory. I have internet, i can download the DLC no problem, its irrelevant to me what others experience because my experience with the game to this point has been nothing short of amazing if the. If the DLC has a price then it will leave a bad taste in my mouth but i still give kudos to Bioware for crafting such an in depth story in which we were able to experience as Shepard as opposed to playing as some God being who is simply a puppet master (which is the role we assume in almost every game in history).
If you grasp and appreciate everything that has just been done then you would agree, like some people, that this is genius. I dont care about formalities or DLC debacles, i care about the rich, engrossing, original and somewhat transcending story that Bioware created. Once there is closure, a lot of people will still be upset and dissatisfied but some will appreciate the masterpiece. Im an artist, i understand that art is subjective, we all have our opinions, if Indoc Theory is true then IN MY OPINION, its pure genius.
Watching this clip of the Sovereign meeting in ME1 really pisses me off. "We are eternal, we are your destruction," to "We're doing this to save organics from other synthetics!"
Man they really had no idea what they were doing with that ending. It's got "Oh shit, this will do" written all over it.
Man they really had no idea what they were doing with that ending. It's got "Oh shit, this will do" written all over it.
And I don't understand how they managed to make it with all of the Reapers invasion. Did they find some quiet corner in the galaxy where the Reapers are not checking? Or did they move it around? If they did, with the size, it must be cumbersome especially if they get ambushed.
ElectricBlue187
Member
lol people are still talking about indoc theory despite the mountain of evidence against it. Keep fighting that good fight brothers.
"Bioware can't write that subtle" Such great evidence.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
The problem isn't that they didn't, it's that they did.
Oh God. Keighly's app disproves Indoc Theory as does, you know, logic.
Yeah, when considering that the Reapers had to have had indoctrinated moles in the species militias, or at least decent access to communication, I'm surprised they wouldn't have tried to just ambush the fuck out of it. I could have let it slide if all Reapers were characterized as being arrogant as Sovereign and Harbinger, but I have no idea what Bioware is even trying to convey in terms of "personality" for the Reapers. If they are the "COLD CALCULATING MACHINES" the Catalyst seems to think they are, then its just dumb.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Laziness is a better argument
Elaborate spock.
RedRedSuit
Member
Perhaps I'll get time to respond to this in detail some other time, but one thing I'll say now:
The only way through which the Indoctrination theory is a genius move by Bioware is if it is exposed and closed in the main game, Mass Effect 3. For example, if after the existing horrid endings, Shepard wakes from the indoctrination attempt and fucking destroys the Reapers. Then that might be something -- though way way way too Metal Gear Solid'y for the series (almost reminiscent of the 7 endings to MGS4). But as it is, that isn't in the game.
Anything involving DLC... even free DLC... is poor. It's a lie, a blatant broken promise, and unsatisfying for the 99% of players of the game who do not want to look for clues and convince themselves of something that isn't in the game.
Haunted
Member
It is, quite literally, a deus ex machina.
heliosRAzi
Banned
The notes on the ending that have been posted numerous times does not mention indoctrination. And it doesn't appear in the production notes either. In fact, a piece of evidence Indocs like to use are the black tendrils. In the production notes, TIM is using his "control mojo"
A sequence involving indoctrination was planned but they scrapped it due to time constraints and control issues.
That was for Zomba
Besides, and I know this will rub some people the wrong way, but the Indoc theory just screams of desperation. With the ending we have, at least the main goal is resolved. With Indoc theory, we got a huge cliffhanger at the end of a trilogy. This theory only provides hope for those wanting DLC.
This is a game that Bioware shoved a Jersey Shore reject into and the hot chick from IGN in to appeal to the masses. Ever since the very first game they've been trying to make it more and more mainstream and more and more accessible. Knowing that, do you really believe they would put in such a confusing ending that makes no sense? An ending that might be explained maybe a few months after the release of the game in DLC form?
I wouldn't agree with that. The Catalyst had been built up all game long as the final piece of the puzzle.
RedRedSuit
Member
You'll have to run that by me again.
(Incidentally also the words I uttered to the Star Child after he gave his spiel. He refused to comply.)
But the Catalyst is a God in a machine like the Crucible.
In that case it was a macguffin which powered a Deus Ex Machina
A deus ex machina is something that comes out of nowhere to fix a problem. That doesn't describe the Catalyst at all. The fact that he's a godlike A.I. is irrelevant to that concept.
The Crucible isn't a deus ex machina either, heh. Again, these things were built up over the course of the game.
EmCeeGramr
Member
You're right.
It INTRODUCES a problem out of nowhere, and then solves it out of nowhere.
Sorry, yeah I totally failed at typing there. What I mean is that people are taking at face value Bioware stating in the final hours that they didn't put any indoctrination gameplay in because they couldn't make it work. Where as they have already proven to have lied about many things in (or not as the case often is) Mass Effect 3.
Sorry but the fact that it was not mentioned in the notes given to Keighly does not disprove it. The notes showed they wanted speculation from fans. If the meaning was given away by the creators there would be no need for the desired speculation or talk.
Them scrapping gameplay were your shepherd would lose full control does not mean the idea of indoctrination gone.
Problem = Reapers need to be stopped
Solution = Crucible + Catalyst
Result = Reapers are stopped
Known throughout the whole game. That it turned out idiotic doesn't fit the definition.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Indoctrination is false because literally everything that's come out from BioWare has indicated that what you saw there was what you got, and they deliberately made it vague. Even internal files detailing story beats cutscene directors to follow mention nothing about hinting at indoctrination.
Meanwhile, there is no evidence for it whatsoever that is not cherry picked, distorted, or just plain stretching.
Problem = Synthetic life will inevitably rise up to destroy its creator (introduced in last 10 minutes)
Solution = Three options, one of which introduces a new angle, one of which was already shot down, and a "true" solution that was never hinted at before (introduced in the last 10 minutes)
Meanwhile, there is no evidence for it whatsoever that is not cherry picked, distorted, or just plain stretching.
Problem = Synthetic life will inevitably rise up to destroy its creator (introduced in last 10 minutes)
Solution = Three options, one of which introduces a new angle, one of which was already shot down, and a "true" solution that was never hinted at before (introduced in the last 10 minutes)
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
The catalyst as a concept is not a deus ex machina.
The catalyst as an omniscient reaper-controlling AI is a deus ex machina, as he almost directly negates the crucible's concept.
The only thing the crucible is necessary for is sending out the signal. The catalyst does everything else. The crucible doesn't stop the reapers. The catalyst gives Shepard the power to do so, with "added options" through further crucible use.
Yeah, that's true, but why save the way to beat the reapers in a self-contained story in the 3rd act of a trilogy?
I H8 Memes
Member
Two things that have infested modern storytelling. Everyone wants to write an amazing twist ending, and starting about 15 years ago or so, almost all science-fiction has to have religious undertones to its conclusion.
Complistic
Member
Why couldn't we ever get a silenced pistol?
dlc
dilatedmuscle
Member
Sure Mass Effect has gotten more and more streamlined and less hardcore. It has been marketed more towards the casual gamers for sales. That being said, we should underestimate Biowares abilities to tell a story. The whole "Bioware isnt that subtle" is ridiculous, the story of the franchise has been so great thus far.
You have a point. We just have to wait and see. The only way i will be unsatisfied is if the Indoc Theory isnt true thus making the ending of the game really truly sucks lol.
You have a point. We just have to wait and see. The only way i will be unsatisfied is if the Indoc Theory isnt true thus making the ending of the game really truly sucks lol.
Not really, since without finishing the Crucible they never encounter the Catalyst and he doesn't do anything, like in all of the previous cycles. It ultimately necessitated both to start the process, as had been foreshadowed.
It's silly writing but it doesn't really fit the definition.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Oh, I see. You're still in the "negotiation" stage. Latching onto a completely implausible and still horrible idea, only because it's marginally better than the tripe you will not let yourself admit that you witnessed.
We're here for you, whenever you're ready.
Again another weak counter-argument. Bioware has made some interesting tweets about seem to hint there is more then meets the eye. Angryjoe put some in his video if you want to see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI
If your looking for the creators to confirm indoctrination you will not find it. Unless there will be DLC about it.
They also cut dark energy, does that mean it's still the reason the Reapers exist? To prevent it from destroying the universe?
dilatedmuscle
Member
" The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence "
BTW that was not introduced the last 10 minutes, try the last 60 plus hours? It was mentioned by Sovereign in ME1
The problem still involves the Reapers destroying civilizations, and the solution still involves making them not do that.
The Crucible/Catalyst combo was built up as something that would finally put an end to the Reaper threat. It does just that either way, no matter which of the final three options you pick.bigboss370
Member
except they did know. remember all the lines "we are your salvation through destruction" from ME2? and its about not saving organics from other synthetics per se, but just generally synthetics, as in technology.
basically saving younger species and the galaxy from the inevitable fall of advanced civilizations.
I love that moment so much. It's always an example I use of great exposition. I was completely enthralled, knowing I was being told what really had happened and about the Keepers and the citadel. Wonderful music, wonderfully written and Vigil just sounds so ethereal.
Complistic
Member
We must save you from technology. Now die by our superior technology!
That rule doesn't work in many contexts and is an outdated saying. There was a published paper posted in the Atheism vs Theism thread elaborating on it.
EmCeeGramr
Member
They were doing that because it's the job of PR to keep people talking. If you can convince them that you're a genius without actually saying it, then you're doing a good job.
But the absence of evidence for one option while another option has an abundance of evidence means that that other option is probably correct.
Also, yes it was introduced in the last 10 minutes. The original motivation for the Reapers, even during ME2, was not about saving organics from synthetics at all.
bigboss370
Member
yes, except by saving 'you' they mean saving organics, not necessarily humans. they mean other primitive or underdeveloped species.
and i was under the impression the reapers were hybrids of organics and synthetics, using the DNA of conquered species to help build themselves. so they're not truly organic nor truly synthetic, but a mix.