-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow
- Thread starter Patryn
- Start date
HDgaming42
Member
thx!
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/uan3a/i_am_sam_hulick_composer_on_the_mass_effect/
I told you guys that "I Was Lost With You" is the best track.
I told you guys that "I Was Lost With You" is the best track.
Games can be different - some focus on stories, some do not, some are in between, and so forth. Spacewar! is a minimalistic, almost abstract digital game with a very low degree of representational qualities, whereas something like Mass Effect aims to depict a coherent fictional world as best as possible. In that regard, narrative qualities matter much more in the latter, than the former.
Moreover, Mass Effect is an IP that has a very large focus on story and is heavily marketed as such. Reducing its development of its story to "surrounding a body is really just an excuse" is therefore contradictory and counter-intuitive to the reason Bioware make games and their customers play them.
Sephiroth503
Member
Watched Smudboy's latest video the other evening. Have to say the guy does a phenomenal job in spelling out the flaws in the final moments of the game.
To think he got a 90 minute video without getting into Indoctrination theory bits and pieces and examining the whole segment from a purely plot/story telling/character analysis standpoint is amazing.
He summed up the end quite well too IMO, stating that he has no intention of playing these games again, and I feel the same. I couldn't convince myself to bother to play through ME1 and ME2 nevermind ME3 again knowing that my decisions and actions ultimately mean nothing in the context of how the series resolves itself. Not accounting for how the end of ME3 ruins the reapers as antagonists.
To think he got a 90 minute video without getting into Indoctrination theory bits and pieces and examining the whole segment from a purely plot/story telling/character analysis standpoint is amazing.
He summed up the end quite well too IMO, stating that he has no intention of playing these games again, and I feel the same. I couldn't convince myself to bother to play through ME1 and ME2 nevermind ME3 again knowing that my decisions and actions ultimately mean nothing in the context of how the series resolves itself. Not accounting for how the end of ME3 ruins the reapers as antagonists.
Blue Ninja
Member
Sounds like he's a really classy guy.
Arjen
Member
I thought he was always overreacting in the way he hated on ME2 but on this one, i thought he was even to soft, sure he ripped the whole plot a new one, but i expected worse.
And i'm also on the same page. I used to adore the ME universe, bought every book and comic. I just don't give a fuck anymore now, i tried a 2nd playtrough, but i can't be bothered anymore.
I used to defend bioware, hell i even enjoyed Dragon Age 2 quitte a bit, but i'm very, very hesitant buying any of their products in the future.
Sephiroth503
Member
Yeah when I played ME2 I didn't really feel the same way about it (initially) as he did but I watched all his videos on it and he made some excellent points I felt. I did notice that some of the fanbase hated the guy for finding flaws in ME2's plot/story and I suppose at the time you could understand the reaction but now though it appears he has been vindicated in many respects. And of course he did go a bit OTT on the whole human-reaper thing.
Having said that, his ideas for what ME2 could (or one might say "should") have been like were pretty incredible, though perhaps not feasible in the context of modern game design and budgets.
His ME3 videos while still excellent in my view definitely come across as perhaps not as strongly as ME2 did. Kind of how you say he went soft on it. He clearly is a huge fan of the series given how much time he has put into creating excellent videos on the plot of the series and like the rest of us ME3 just crossed a line that said "You know what, I've had enough".
EDIT: Woohoo now a "Member"!!!
In game design there's a strong argument to be made to do the beginning last, because you have a clear idea of what you should build up towards mechanically. World 1-1 of Super Mario Bros 1 was the last level they made, because by then they knew exactly what a player needs to 'know' to finish the game, and how to teach them this.
But yeah, always start with the ending.
Missed this post.
Yes it has been used previously, I think mostly for pirating gamers, but the other guy asked why it was introduced in this discussion, which I think was due to the take back effort, be it a figure of speech or not.
Erm, what? My background is academia, I have no affiliation to any large entertainment game company. As a gamer I'm also of the passive consumerist sort, I don't think I (should) have an active part in the end product; if a game sucks it sucks and I move on to another one.
Clockblockers
Member
I didn't play ME3 right at launch, so I was trying to avoid major spoilers; I knew a media blackout would be impossible, but I figured I could avoid some of it, (it did work kind of; Mordins death was a shock when it happened) but I did start to hear rumblings about how bad the ending was and that fans of the series were pissed off.
By the time I decided to break down and look into the ending the press were using the entitled tag pretty extensively. Normally I assume the internet is over reacting on everything, so I didn't think too much about it. The problem was outside of a few exceptions, most of the criticism was legitimate and not that overboard. So I've been wondering for awhile now how entitlement even got introduced, and what the logic was behind it.
For the record, I enjoyed the vast majority of the game. It has flaws but it was an enjoyable experience. The ending was absolute shit though. There is a part of me that feels like the plan was to have the epilogue be paid DLC, kinda like Prince of Persia 2008. I know its not the case and Bioware screwed up the ending, but I am still hoping greed ruined the ending.....not bad storytelling
Jake Tower
Banned
infinityBCRT
Member
BioWare said they cut out the indoctrinated gameplay bit (where you didn't have control of yourself) because it was too hard to do. Not sure that means they cut out Shepard being indoctrinated during the game though.
riceandbeans
Member
Possibly, I won't count it out but there's too many points that counter the Indoctrination Theory. It's giving Bioware too much credit for an ending that was put together at the last minute. We don't even know how long that sequence was. Was the Illusive Man part playable at one point? It makes more sense that they cut it out and go with something else.
GodfatherX
Member
After looking at stuff about the IT for the past couple days im pretty sure thats what they ultimately wanted to do, just pulled it off extremely poorly. The addition of the grass and trees from the "dream" sequences after the explosion pretty much sold me. For something so barely noticeable (honestly I didn't see it on my play through) it had to have been put there with purpose.
Also did anyone have issues with the majority of the cutscenes throughout the entire game? I experienced a lot of weird frame drops and awkward camera/scene cuts.
GodfatherX
Member
meaning that they had to replace those assets on purpose is the point, not that I think they are some geniuses, I clearly stated that even if the IT turns true it wasnt done well
I doubt it's true. If they planned on it but couldn't put it in entirely for whatever reason, they wouldn't leave the whole ending part of the IT and have it be the ending. It makes no sense and even the writers aren't that stupid.
Game assets are constantly being reused. Those plants being there means nothing.
Game assets are constantly being reused. Those plants being there means nothing.
Well, received the game as a gift last Friday. After a little over 40 hours, just finished the game. 
Overall, after the outrage, etc. was expecting something horrible. The ending was a little disappointing, but not bad in general. But in my case was more around the overall outcome. Since I no longer had my ME2 save, some stuff was affected like Tali killing herself, Thane and Jack been dead before the game, Miranda dying too. Then that scene with Illusive Man with grayed out options, even when I had Paragon maxed out...apparently Paragon was 99.9% only, and to get 100% Paragon I had to import a save to unlock that last option(?). Even when I had over 4,500 points in the Galaxy at War map.
Then there was some randomness. Like how my final squad was Liara and Kaidan (my main squad through the entire game); yet they apparently died during that last scene with the laser/Reaper. Then at the end, after the Normandy crashes, the only ones that get out in the forest(?) are Joker, Steve Cortez (my love interest) and...Javik? Don't know what happened to Garrus, James or EDI; had to assume they died since they weren't in the Normandy per se but in London. Then again ,Javik was in London too and appeared at the end? And reading around it seems that the characters are random, since other people got other characters and also wonder why they got them.
In general, the ending in concept wasn't as bad as I was expecting, just that I ended wondering too many things about my characters. Hope the upcoming DLC delivers some answers at least when it comes to the outcome of the characters.
As a side-note, couldn't copy that save to the cloud (Xbox 360); but could "move it". Just in case so I don't end losing it like I did with the second game... on which I saved everyone.
Overall, after the outrage, etc. was expecting something horrible. The ending was a little disappointing, but not bad in general. But in my case was more around the overall outcome. Since I no longer had my ME2 save, some stuff was affected like Tali killing herself, Thane and Jack been dead before the game, Miranda dying too. Then that scene with Illusive Man with grayed out options, even when I had Paragon maxed out...apparently Paragon was 99.9% only, and to get 100% Paragon I had to import a save to unlock that last option(?). Even when I had over 4,500 points in the Galaxy at War map.
Then there was some randomness. Like how my final squad was Liara and Kaidan (my main squad through the entire game); yet they apparently died during that last scene with the laser/Reaper. Then at the end, after the Normandy crashes, the only ones that get out in the forest(?) are Joker, Steve Cortez (my love interest
) and...Javik? Don't know what happened to Garrus, James or EDI; had to assume they died since they weren't in the Normandy per se but in London. Then again ,Javik was in London too and appeared at the end? And reading around it seems that the characters are random, since other people got other characters and also wonder why they got them.In general, the ending in concept wasn't as bad as I was expecting, just that I ended wondering too many things about my characters. Hope the upcoming DLC delivers some answers at least when it comes to the outcome of the characters.
As a side-note, couldn't copy that save to the cloud (Xbox 360); but could "move it". Just in case so I don't end losing it like I did with the second game... on which I saved everyone.
It's really stupid, You had paragon maxed out but in order to get those options, you have to use a persuade(renegade or paragon) option each time you meet with the illusive man.
You meet him a total of 6 times. You probably missed one. I did too
Lalalalalalalalala SHEPHARD WAS INDOCTRINATED LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA
HDgaming42
Member
After watching a couple of very lengthy vids I think I'm an IT convert. The trees, the change in the eyes for two but not all 3 options, the fact only 1 option (destroy) ends up in Sheppard surviving.
At least IT makes sense--or I haven't seen convincing anti-IT arguments yet.
It seems the general atmosphere here is IT hostile. Why? (serious question).
I'm nowhere near "IT makes sense so all is forgiven". No no no. If IT is real it's a massive dick move on BioWare's part. And that has no bearing on the fact none of my choices leading up to the final battle seemed to make a lick of difference. Unless of course the DLC will be stacked with potential outcomes like this. I'm not that delusional.
IT doesn't let them off the hook, but it helps me be less angry. I'm afraid I'll explode if I read the 400,000 posts I missed out on during my self-imposed black-out, but hopefully someone is willing to (re?)engage these questions...
Is there a general consensus regarding IT, or is it split down the middle? Personally I have a tough time believing they'd leave it this long if it was intentional. They needed to strike when the iron was hot. It is no longer hot.
Or maybe this is the ultimate "screw you" to used game sales. Oh, you sold ME3 four months ago? A shame you'll NEVER SEE THE REAL ENDING. Take that all you "we don't care about 'online' gamers! Now we've found a way to screw with what YOU enjoy!!"
At least IT makes sense--or I haven't seen convincing anti-IT arguments yet.
It seems the general atmosphere here is IT hostile. Why? (serious question).
I'm nowhere near "IT makes sense so all is forgiven". No no no. If IT is real it's a massive dick move on BioWare's part. And that has no bearing on the fact none of my choices leading up to the final battle seemed to make a lick of difference. Unless of course the DLC will be stacked with potential outcomes like this. I'm not that delusional.
IT doesn't let them off the hook, but it helps me be less angry. I'm afraid I'll explode if I read the 400,000 posts I missed out on during my self-imposed black-out, but hopefully someone is willing to (re?)engage these questions...
Is there a general consensus regarding IT, or is it split down the middle? Personally I have a tough time believing they'd leave it this long if it was intentional. They needed to strike when the iron was hot. It is no longer hot.
Or maybe this is the ultimate "screw you" to used game sales. Oh, you sold ME3 four months ago? A shame you'll NEVER SEE THE REAL ENDING. Take that all you "we don't care about 'online' gamers! Now we've found a way to screw with what YOU enjoy!!"
heliosRAzi
Banned
The IT was born out of the frustration gamers had with the ending. People felt that Bioware just could not come up with an ending like that so they tried to find something that could make more sense.
The problem with the IT is that it does not solve the plot at all. According to the IT, Shepard is still lying in rubble while everyone dies. Nothing is accomplished. Even though the ending we got is pretty shitty, it does solve the main plot of stopping the reapers (although in an extremely unsatisfying way).
And the "it was all a dream" trope is a bad way to end something unless the media is built around questioning reality such as Inception or Total Recall. When it happened in Dallas, it came off as cheap and corny.
Although IT was planned to be in the game, in the Final Hours app in which we see Walters' scribbled notes on the ending, indoctrination is no where to be found. Just LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE. Additionally, in the production notes, the black tendrils that swirl around the screen when TIM is controlling you is not indoctrination, it is TIM's "control mojo." Seriously. Control mojo.
It's a shitty theory
riceandbeans
Member
If you can't find any IT arguments, then you haven't been looking hard enough. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't fit, and many elements are grossly exaggerated and taken out of context.
The ending alone completely nullifies the IT when the space brat explains you can't control the Reapers if you're indoctrinated because then you wouldn't really be controlling the Reapers because they control you.
None of the leaked scripts refer to Shepard being indoctrinated the whole time either. The scripts go way back to when Javik was part of the main campaign before Bioware decide to fuck their fans.
The ending alone completely nullifies the IT when the space brat explains you can't control the Reapers if you're indoctrinated because then you wouldn't really be controlling the Reapers because they control you.
None of the leaked scripts refer to Shepard being indoctrinated the whole time either. The scripts go way back to when Javik was part of the main campaign before Bioware decide to fuck their fans.
HDgaming42
Member
OK, fair enough--I'd avoided the leaked script(s). Though I'd personally still prefer to see Sheppard buried in rubble on Earth than believe in the technicolor nightmare they shat out at the last minute.
And I think the idea is that the kid telling you indoctrinated people can't control reapers could be total bullshit because, you know, it's all in your head. I wouldn't believe a thing that kid says.
Remember that he claims synthetics and organics can't live together. Even though I just spent 3 games working toward (and achieving) just that. I'd rather such a glaring error be the god-child lying, as opposed to incompetent writing.
And I think the idea is that the kid telling you indoctrinated people can't control reapers could be total bullshit because, you know, it's all in your head. I wouldn't believe a thing that kid says.
Remember that he claims synthetics and organics can't live together. Even though I just spent 3 games working toward (and achieving) just that. I'd rather such a glaring error be the god-child lying, as opposed to incompetent writing.
Typographenia
Member
This is my favorite writeup thingy on the ending I've seen thus far.
Doesn't really offer an explanation, but I prefer it to what we got.
HDgaming42
Member
The thing is that the lead writers decided that Technological Singularity was the problem the Catalyst was made to solve. Within the theory, technological entities (AIs, robots, etc) will eventually surpass biological ones and become the only beings in the universe: In the game it assumes that synthetic life will kill all organic life. So to stop that, the Catalyst devised a terrible plan.
Because the idea wasn't presented in the final script (though the term had been mentioned in a previous version) it comes out completely out of the blue, even more so than if it had been mentioned at all. Ultimately, it's obvious that the writing was terrible, because they couldn't even get the point they wanted across to the viewer -- especially if the viewer perceived the game to tell him or her that all kinds of life can triumph if Shepard accepts diversity, which leads to unity through that very diversity.
GillianSeed79
Member
So, I just finished this not 20 minutes ago. Did I miss a dialogue tree or something because after the child told me I had 3 choices I walked to the light and got the “green”, Edi and Joker are fuck buddies, it's cool to fuck robots now, ending.
Was the lack of choice at the end what all the fuss was about? I was expecting the shittiest of all shitty endings. What I saw was a videogame quality ending, nothing more nothing less. This is what caused a shitstorm?
Edit: Oh, right. Sorry, I avoided the spoiler thread until I finished the game. All the endings are the same?
Was the lack of choice at the end what all the fuss was about? I was expecting the shittiest of all shitty endings. What I saw was a videogame quality ending, nothing more nothing less. This is what caused a shitstorm?
Edit: Oh, right. Sorry, I avoided the spoiler thread until I finished the game. All the endings are the same?
Bornstellar
Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H_A7SeawU4
Then, the straw I'm holding on to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck
PinkCrayon
Member
This hurts me. Seeing all you fresh faced newbies venture into this thread. Some people understand fairly quickly, but it takes others some time to absorb and even collect all the data.
Don't worry you'll join the enlightened soon. Just try not to fall too far down the indoctrination hole, that is the lowest of the low.
Don't worry you'll join the enlightened soon. Just try not to fall too far down the indoctrination hole, that is the lowest of the low.
riceandbeans
Member
The ending is fine if you don't look into it, but once you start doing research, you'll start to notice the massive plot holes, laziness between the endings since all are almost the same, and Bioware being fucking assholes by determining your ending on multiplayer and social gaming in a single-player RPG.
It wasn't only the lack of choice.
It made no sense. It destroyed everything in terms of plot and characters.
Nothing is explained and it raises more questions than providing closure.
None of what you did in all the games has any effect on anything.
It's just poorly written, poorly executed and stupid
GillianSeed79
Member
Yeah, now that I slept on it and watched the top 10 vid - The ending makes no SENSE at all, especially the Joker and stranded galaxy fleet parts. I think I was in the denial phase last night.
Also, I don't buy the indoctrination theory. It's way too clever for BioWare's writers to have thought of.
I also don't see how DLC will rectify this ending since everyone is essentially fucked.
Look at the posts above yours. It's explained there
RedRedSuit
Member
Just imagine you've been watching Star Wars for 3 movies, and then at the very end of if it becomes 2001: A Space Odyssey. You've been fighting and kicking Sith ass for years, and when the stakes are highest, and the shit really hits the fan, and you finally get the Emperor and Darth Vader in the same room... you become the Star Child.
Also,
Also,
I think that covers the crux of it.
For more details, see http://www.cpugamer.com/editorial/bioware-made-a-big-mistake-but-they-are-doing-the-right-thing-now (spoilerama).
Jake Tower
Banned
HDgaming42
Member
Does this situation remind anyone else of The Matrix Reloaded? How the ending had
Many people were dissatisfied with the ending, but then an alternate theory arose--one that would have actually made that movie a hell of a lot smarter than it was. The theory went that
And that whole bit about people not accepting paradise?
That theory made a lot of sense, but wasn't terribly popular. People wanted a more traditional ending, and with the third movie they got it. And it sucked.
Here's where BioWare could make history and leverage the power of crowd-sourcing. Do I think they planned the IT? Nope. Do I think it makes for a better ending than the tacked on shit they're probably working on to show how many more stories space grandpa can tell before bedtime? Yup. I sure do.
It makes them look smart. And no one will be the wiser. They can claim it was their plan all along, or they could say--you know what fans--you were so close to what we'd envisioned, but as a thank-you to you all, we're going to use your input in the ending.
Give me the IT. Give me a 6 minute DLC that has me wake up baked on Earth.
YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE CRUCIBLE WITH THE IT!!!! Resume from where you wake up, crawl into the beam and take another crack at not writing a shit-bag ending.
Neo blasting machines not in the Matrix but in the real world? And Sanders spouting off about how Neo wasn't the first Neo, nor would he be the last?
Many people were dissatisfied with the ending, but then an alternate theory arose--one that would have actually made that movie a hell of a lot smarter than it was. The theory went that
Neo wasn't actually in "the real world" at all, but in yet another Matrix. A Matrix within a Matrix. The theory was explained far more eloquently than I'm recalling, but essentially Sanders figured out that a certain element of the population would always reject the Matrix and seek to break out of it. Instead of fighting that, they simply created a sub-Matrix to house all the Mal-contents. What better way to put down a revolt than to have the people believe they've broken free?
And that whole bit about people not accepting paradise?
OK sure, let them "break out" into the sub-matrix, but make their lives shit. They enjoy that. It feels real to them. And then when we start to run out of hard drive space we purge the fuckers.
That theory made a lot of sense, but wasn't terribly popular. People wanted a more traditional ending, and with the third movie they got it. And it sucked.
Here's where BioWare could make history and leverage the power of crowd-sourcing. Do I think they planned the IT? Nope. Do I think it makes for a better ending than the tacked on shit they're probably working on to show how many more stories space grandpa can tell before bedtime? Yup. I sure do.
It makes them look smart. And no one will be the wiser. They can claim it was their plan all along, or they could say--you know what fans--you were so close to what we'd envisioned, but as a thank-you to you all, we're going to use your input in the ending.
Give me the IT. Give me a 6 minute DLC that has me wake up baked on Earth.
YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE CRUCIBLE WITH THE IT!!!! Resume from where you wake up, crawl into the beam and take another crack at not writing a shit-bag ending.
-- Won't happen. They've double-downed on the "artistic integrity" excuse for their shitbag ending. So we'll get a longer cutscene and additional space magic.
-- It seems clear that the ridiculous Synthesis ending (Joker's robo-hat and all) was their "ideal" ending since it was the one you had to unlock - but I'll be damned if it wasn't the lamest of the three. Speaking of space magic, they really turned that crap up a notch in ME3, especially with Javik's psychic resonance powers. So much so that it had to have been a deliberate choice from the beginning of the entire project. RGB ending was just the cherry on top.
harriet the spy
Member
It's kind of entertaining seeing you rage and rage so much about IT and rant about how stupid it is. The IT is most certainly wrong, but your incessant whining about it is endearingly childish.
This is so awesome. All dwarfs will die just kills it.
Where exactly is the conversation with the Star child? To me it looks like it is outside in space on the side of the Citadel or something.
Indoctrination Theory seems to make the most sense to me.
And back in the day, my friends and I all walked out of Reloaded thinking it was a Matrix-inside-another-Matrix too.
Indoctrination Theory seems to make the most sense to me.
And back in the day, my friends and I all walked out of Reloaded thinking it was a Matrix-inside-another-Matrix too.
in a vaccum
Whenever I see that, I just have to reiterate that it's offensive. ME3 is nowhere near that film.
A vacuum wouldn't have air though. I think they're within a Mass field that can house air.
I recently watched Dr. Who, and was tickled when the
Daleks mentioned their ship's name . . . The Crucible.
Good for you.
It's kind of entertaining seeing you rage and rage so much about IT and rant about how stupid it is. The IT is most certainly wrong, but your incessant whining about it is endearingly childish.
This is so awesome. All dwarfs will die just kills it.
Haha, I'm dying here, these two are so awesome lol.
heliosRAzi
Banned
No Bioware wants LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE!