Support NeoGAF

[Daffy Duck]

Even with those figures that would still be speculation and many more factors that are most likely in play such as people visiting which would make the figures inaccurate. The police usually go by the policy of only announcing death figures if they have dead bodies.

I don't get the morbid fascination of having a count of the dead, we know it is bad and people are working their arses off to get information.

It's not that I want to know how many people lost their lives, its just based on a new story that popped up on my phone saying the Queen visited and missing could number 76, I just assumed they would be able to quickly gather numbers.

 

[sammex]

MET just announced there will be a criminal investigation.

Also - there is nothing to suggest the fire was started deliberately.

Edit

 

[Goodlife]

https://youtu.be/q6q7mS7MOw4

 

[Don Draper's Hat]

Officially up to 30 deaths now.

 

[Charles Brandon]

yeah let's not post shite from RT

 

[JoeNut]

30 confirmed dead now.

I just saw on the news too that they've recently closed 10 fire stations in and around london, what the hell

 

[Charles Brandon]

30 confirmed dead now.

I just saw on the news too that they've recently closed 10 fire stations in and around london, what the hell

Whilst I am no expert, fires are down a lot these days (according to a fireman I met the other day) because people don't smoke indoors as much and don't use chip-pans. So it's not crazy that fire provision has been reduced. And also, the Fire Brigade got there within six minutes anyway.

 

[Goodlife]

Whilst I am no expert, fires are down a lot these days (according to a fireman I met the other day) because people don't smoke indoors as much and don't use chip-pans. So it's not crazy that fire provision has been reduced. And also, the Fire Brigade got there within six minutes anyway.

A lot of the fire services job though is to prevent fires, not just fight them.
Be interesting to find out how the cuts affected their ability to do this

 

[Z3K]

There was a lawyer on Newsnight yesterday talking about having an inquest instead of a public inquiry. Anyone know what the difference is between those two?

She kept going on about how the government can interfere in a public inquiry outcome or something. Is this true?

 

[CrunchyB]

We see this after most tragic events, people use the victims as shields as a reason not to point fingers and let the bad guys off the hook. I think the victims would want justice.

See the typical NRA reaction after the umpteenth American mass shooting, "this is not the time, our prayers are with the victims, bla bla". Such bullshit, this is exactly the time to take action, this disaster will already be forgotten by the general public in 6 months time and your window to prevent this from happening again will be closed.

 

[frankie_baby]

Whilst I am no expert, fires are down a lot these days (according to a fireman I met the other day) because people don't smoke indoors as much and don't use chip-pans. So it's not crazy that fire provision has been reduced. And also, the Fire Brigade got there within six minutes anyway.

Getting the first fireman on site in 6 minutes doesnt mean a tonne of firemen wouldnt have been their quicker if the local fire stations hadnt been shut

 

[Charles Brandon]

A lot of the fire services job though is to prevent fires, not just fight them.
Be interesting to find out how the cuts affected their ability to do this

Fair point

 

[mingo]

30 confirmed dead now, there is no doubt some will be known to me either as a member of the gym opposite or customer at my work. R.I.P

 

[Lego Boss]

You see this all the time. It's part if the reason so many public services have turned gash. Whether it's a prison, validating disability or collecting rubbish, it's put out to tender, some enormo-corp puts in the lowest bid, wins the work and then has to cheap out on the service to make a profit.

That's what happens when you make saving cash your no 1 priority.

OK. Stop it. There's no space for sensible logic here.

If you make the bottom line the motivator then that is surely the right thing?

Competition is always good and moral? Am I right?

 

[Newline]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

 

[Burger]

Drawing my completely speculative conclusions, it appears that many many people died for £2 per square meter.

 

[King_Moc]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

I wonder if the daily mail will be posting details of the person that made that decision?

Depends on their skin colour, I guess.

 

[Dougald]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

Two. Fucking. Quid.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

They literally decided against the option that was labelled 'fire resistant'.

 

[Crispy75]

Two. Fucking. Quid.

per m² - so something like £15,000 for the whole building, based on some fag packet calcs.

 

[Morat]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

If there aren't prosecutions over this, and bloody fast, there are going to be riots.

 

[Lo-Volt]

per m² - so something like £15,000 for the whole building, based on some fag packet calcs.

Wasn't this a 10 million GBP refurbishment project?

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Drawing my completely speculative conclusions, it appears that many many people died for £2 per square meter.

Criminal actions.

Wasn't this a 10 million GBP refurbishment project?

The contractors ost to the council and value for money are two vastly separate things.

 

[jellies_two]

Drawing my completely speculative conclusions, it appears that many many people died for £2 per square meter.

Yes, and I might be wrong but the spec sheet for both types seem to list the same fire standard pass, so there may also be still an issue with fire standards as well.

https://www.arconic.com/aap/north_america/catalog/pdf/brochures/Reynobond_Brochure.pdf

 

[jellies_two]

Wasn't this a 10 million GBP refurbishment project?

Yes but the exterior cladding was a smaller part of the cost - 2 million I think? - and most would be labor etc not material costs. (Either way such extra cost should be invisible).

 

[Dougald]

per m² - so something like £15,000 for the whole building, based on some fag packet calcs.

Some people in Kensington probably have shoes that cost more than that

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Wasn't this a 10 million GBP refurbishment project?

Yes.

 

[red731]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

All. Of. My. Fucking. Rage.

 

[Nikodemos]

per m² - so something like £15,000 for the whole building, based on some fag packet calcs.

By Grabthar's Hammer, what a savings.

 

[autumnleaf]

120 flats, 2 bedroom at that in Kensington, being really conservative and say £1000 a month rent for everyone means it's bringing in 5 digits every month. £15k saving seems nothing.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Wasn't this a 10 million GBP refurbishment project?

Gotta assume half of that was skimmed.

But that's why we love private industry!

 

[Charles Brandon]

120 flats, 2 bedroom at that in Kensington, being really conservative and say £1000 a month rent for everyone means it's bringing in 5 digits every month. £15k saving seems nothing.

The privately held flats were being let at £1,800-£2,000.

 

[CarlisleDavid1979]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

Fucking corruption.

 

[Jezbollah]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

People need to go to jail for this.

 

[PJV3]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

I don't even understand how it's an option for inhabited buildings.

 

[Uzzy]

Fucking corruption.

Nah, it's not corruption. Just a conscious decision by people in power to undervalue the lives of the poor, the migrants, the benefit seeking, the council housing occupants.

Corruption would be less monstrous than that.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

per m² - so something like £15,000 for the whole building, based on some fag packet calcs.

If the rumoured death toll is around 150, that means the company believed it was worth the risk of a death trap building to save £100 per dead person.

That's how much we are worth to this government and the reality they have established.

 

[Newline]

People need to go to jail for this.

Absolutely, I can't wrap my head around how someone could consider this to be an appropriate choice for the project. Turning a safe concrete structure into what is essentially a giant fire starter. This is pure negligence.

 

[Lo-Volt]

In a report compiled before the Grenfell Tower disaster on Wednesday, the Building Research Establishment, which works for the Department of Communities and Local Government on fire investigations, said attempts to innovate with insulation were leading to an “increase in the volume of potentially combustible materials being applied” to buildings.

Construction and fire experts increasingly fear that the cladding system applied to Grenfell Tower may have been instrumental in spreading the fire. The system was installed to improve the thermal efficiency of the building and improve its appearance.

Full story. This report was compiled in 2016.

 

[doby]

I don't even understand how it's an option for inhabited buildings.

Neither do I.

Regulations for this type of thing must be woefully inadequate. It would have been tested for combustibility in it's intended purpose (large cladded areas). Crazy to think someone did those tests, saw the results and yet it still passed.

 

[zoukka]

Absolutely, I can't wrap my head around how someone could consider this to be an appropriate choice for the project. Turning a safe concrete structure into what is essentially a giant fire starter. This is pure negligence.

I don't think it's rare at all.

 

[Daffy Duck]

I don't even understand how it's an option for inhabited buildings.

Neither do I, but I saw a story (think it was the Daily Mail) that apparently one contracting firm who won the contract subsequently lost it as they said the project was going to cost more.

It's a sad sign of the times.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

There was a lawyer on Newsnight yesterday talking about having an inquest instead of a public inquiry. Anyone know what the difference is between those two?

She kept going on about how the government can interfere in a public inquiry outcome or something. Is this true?

Public inquiries are run by ministers, inquests are run by independent chairs

EDIT: turns out it's a bit more subtle than that, from what I gather ministers set the terms and scope of a public inquiry, they don't do so for inquests

 

[Charles Brandon]

Full story. This report was compiled in 2016.

We need to know exactly what this report said, who it was sent to, who else saw it and what action they took as a result. Could be nothing, could bring down the government.

 

[Nevasleep]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

It's a beancounters world. As far as I know, the UK hasn't banned its usage unlike other countries, and the regulations allowed for its use.

While the regulations might have ok'd it, could they still possibly be guilty of manslaugher?

 

[HarryHengst]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

Fuck yeah, capitalism. Thats 5000 pound more for owners and shareholders!

 

[doby]

Public inquiries are run by ministers, inquests are run by independent chairs

How can the voice of the people go about changing the proposed public inquiry to an inquest though?

Government petition is one way I guess, but it's biased from the outset and conveniently for the government there currently is no petition committee because of the election.

 

[Mr Git]

And there we go:
Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option, supplier confirms

Fucking cunts. I knew Rydon were shady but fuck me. Horrible fucking bastards.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

It would also help if we knew exactly what counts as a pass and what the metrics for testing are.

Example: The cheaper cladding may have merely 'passed' instead of been rated 'very good'; expected to be resilient against burning clotheslines or wayward cigarettes, not an entire apartment aflame.

 

[Newline]

It's a beancounters world. As far as I know, the UK hasn't banned its usage unlike other countries, and the regulations allowed for its use.

While the regulations might have ok'd it, could they still possibly be guilty of manslaugher?

Well that's the thing, it may have it's uses in certain situations. Like a small building with modern fire safety fixtures. The regulations don't account for every project and scenario.

The decision to use this cladding would have been made as part of a larger project. The particular project being a very tall building, with no plans to introduce modern fire alarms that had a gas pipe running down its singular stairwell. There's no way to spin than this is an ok decision, this scenario was either completely missed or ignored to save costs.