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Massive Fire in High Rise Apartment in London
- Thread starter superdeluxe
- Start date
JonnyDBrit
Member
To be honest, I'm increasingly of the suspicion that the cladding may have been a two birds, one stone kinda deal. Wealthier residents bugging the council about how the tower block looked - but even a Tory council can't just justify refurbishment for the sake of people who don't even live in the building. Then, someone notes, the building sucks up a lot of power with heating anyway, so they need a way of insulating that'll bring the long term expense down.
Oh, they could clad the outside of the building? Both problems solved! (and one massive one created)
As to the the effectiveness of sprinklers: True, they would have some difficulty in actually keeping the fire from engulfing the building, as the cladding outside would be beyond the range of any sprinklers, meaning the fire would continue to have a source until the sprinklers stopped working. I do think it would have helped to keep the corridor and the stairwell relatively viable as a means of escape for longer - if even only one life more would have made it out of there thanks to it, it'd be worth the expense. As it is, they went minimal protection, maximum risk.
Oh, they could clad the outside of the building? Both problems solved! (and one massive one created)
As to the the effectiveness of sprinklers: True, they would have some difficulty in actually keeping the fire from engulfing the building, as the cladding outside would be beyond the range of any sprinklers, meaning the fire would continue to have a source until the sprinklers stopped working. I do think it would have helped to keep the corridor and the stairwell relatively viable as a means of escape for longer - if even only one life more would have made it out of there thanks to it, it'd be worth the expense. As it is, they went minimal protection, maximum risk.
Charles Brandon
Member
One guy could have escaped but refused to leave his dogs. Which is touching in one way but frankly, a bit silly in another.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
Linkstrikesback
Member
Fucking cunts
Putting a question as a headline when you know the answer is "no" needs to be made illegal.
autumnleaf
Member
Miles Quaritch
Member
openrob
Member
The Labour MP narrowly won the seat last week
CadetMahoney
Member
We see this after most tragic events, people use the victims as shields as a reason not to point fingers and let the bad guys off the hook. I think the victims would want justice.
Is that it, really? I mean I don't want it to be, but can't imagine what else it is.
I can just imagine what the response would be if a terrorist incident killed this number of people.
Hmmm, yeah, take your point, but sadly it's pretty much a given at this stage
On the one hand I do hate that the natural reaction in this country is just to blame the UK government (whatever party, it was the same in the 00s) for everything bad that happens - especially when the failings are more at council level - but they have responded in a fucking hamfisted way to this.
This government was actually relatively competent until about three months ago, god knows what has happened, they've all lost their minds.
This government was actually relatively competent until about three months ago, god knows what has happened, they've all lost their minds.
Local council is a bit different to constituency.
Tories still control the local council
openrob
Member
Ahh sorry
AdventureRacing
Member
That's a fairly judgemental attitude to have and very unfair IMO. For a lot of people their pets are essentially their family. Who are you to say otherwise? I don't want to be too harsh but calling them silly seems very disrespectful to me.
Charles Brandon
Member
Your opinion is noted.
I'm not an expert but seriously I don't see how sprinklers couldn't have helped in this situation. The building's likely lost either way but it seems like there were people alive well into the fire, they weren't all dead by smoke or whatever, so anything to keep the temperature down any sounds like it'd be a game changer. Didn't someone say they couldn't leave because the floor was just too hot, how would a sprinkler system have not helped? Besides, if the warning was a big factor maybe you wouldn't hear a fire alarm in your sleep but getting doused with fucking water's going to wake your ass up and if it's pouring water in your room you're probably not going to chill in there thinking everything's good and wait it out.
Again, I don't know shit about this stuff I just fail to see how someone could claim it'd do nothing.
ferrasvansen
Member
Frankfurter
Member
"Just asking questions" I guess... fucking cunts. They know exactly that EU regulation have nothing to do with this. But apparently intentionally spreading misinformation is okay for journalists.
> EU sets up law about energy efficiency
> Developer/council follows that law in a dangerous way
> Fire happens because of complying with law in dangerous way
> Therefore, the problem is that the law exists! Not that the UK failed to make flammable cladding illegal
It's genuinely quite scary thinking about the wonderful deregulated & 0 red-tape world the Express want to push us towards. It will only make stuff like this fire more likely if anything - the fact that this cladding was installed just to save £5k kind of demonstrates that perfectly
They are not journalists, don't ever acknowledge them as journalists.
ferrasvansen
Member
Watching Andrea Leadsom on sky now, feckin clueless and unable to relate to ordinary people. Get a grips ffs, cut out the aloof, not answering question bullshit.
just saw this on twitter too https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/875442208664670208?s=08
And the Tories don't think we need another Leveson :/
A person willing to do that must have no moral compass whatsoever - the UK tabloids are a national embarrassment tbh
ferrasvansen
Member
Disgusting, time to get a grip on these shitrags.
JimiNutz
Banned
I work in fire protection for a social landlord in the UK and my heart sank when I saw this story. Such a terrible waste of life that seems like it could, and should, have been easily avoided.
The only positive outcome is that hopefully landlords will pay even more attention to their fire protection now and this has also made me look at my job with renewed enthusiasm. Really drives home the importance of what I do day to day.
The only positive outcome is that hopefully landlords will pay even more attention to their fire protection now and this has also made me look at my job with renewed enthusiasm. Really drives home the importance of what I do day to day.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Seems to be quite a lot of anger towards the media there too. Understandable, especially if they've been demanding action and trying to bring attention to safety concerns for years. The story about the people on the roof sounds horrifying, I wonder how many people were up there.
Not shocked this, but I am surprised it's come out so quickly. Fully expect it to get lost in the shuffle of news though.
cyberheater
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I can't help but feel the local authorities competitive tendering process is partly to blame. The rules state they have to give the job to the lowest bidder.
An extract of the rules.
So another supplier might have used higher quality safer materials but the local authority could not have chosen them.
An extract of the rules.
So another supplier might have used higher quality safer materials but the local authority could not have chosen them.
Damn. Politicizing tragedies isn't a new thing but that shit reads like a straight tabloid. Absolutely no respect.
Vivalaraza
Member
What's the other way?
cyberheater
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I've lost the page now but I know loads of folks who work for local authorities and it always comes down the cheapest.
Charles Brandon
Member
You see this all the time. It's part if the reason so many public services have turned gash. Whether it's a prison, validating disability or collecting rubbish, it's put out to tender, some enormo-corp puts in the lowest bid, wins the work and then has to cheap out on the service to make a profit.
That's what happens when you make saving cash your no 1 priority.
I know there are a number of other appeals going on but Localgiving just launched a Grenfell Tower appeal where we are doubling all donations from £2 to £5000 to help the victims of the fire until we run out of our own funds. If someone feels like helping out, you can even just share the link on social (my social presence is almost nil).
Localgiving is non-profit organisation (owned by a charity) that helps local and often very small charities and community groups around the UK with fundraising by providing access to a donation platform and training around use of online fundraising. We are often confused with JustGiving but we focus on the smallest local groups that work directly with the communities rather than big international charities. We run match funds where we have a certain amount pot of money that we fundraise ourselves for from which we will match or double the donations until he money runs out. We are planning to distribute the funds to the local charities in the area that will be involved in helping the community.
We are a pretty small and rather unknown organisation since we focus on the low end of the market so to speak, in the sector we are known for our match funding campaigns and the sustainability report that we publish yearly.
If you got any questions let me know.
Localgiving is non-profit organisation (owned by a charity) that helps local and often very small charities and community groups around the UK with fundraising by providing access to a donation platform and training around use of online fundraising. We are often confused with JustGiving but we focus on the smallest local groups that work directly with the communities rather than big international charities. We run match funds where we have a certain amount pot of money that we fundraise ourselves for from which we will match or double the donations until he money runs out. We are planning to distribute the funds to the local charities in the area that will be involved in helping the community.
We are a pretty small and rather unknown organisation since we focus on the low end of the market so to speak, in the sector we are known for our match funding campaigns and the sustainability report that we publish yearly.
If you got any questions let me know.
Charles Brandon
Member
You may want to explain who 'you' are...I'm sure you're on the level but there are already two huge just giving pages so some explanation of who you are would be great so people feel easier about trusting you. Sorry if I've missed something. The offer to double donations is very generous and deserves attention.
from BBC
Don Draper's Hat
Member
I've heard a number of Sky reporters now saying things like "we're on the verge of serious anger on the streets".
They want riots to break out don't they?
They want riots to break out don't they?
SlickShoes
Member
I know it's not the same but I work in a University and we have to always go with the cheapest supplier now too, other suppliers can get us goods quicker and easier, but even if it saves £2 we have to go with the cheapest even if it makes the process take literally months.
DodgyGeezerFella
Member
Sadly seems to be the norm. In my previous job the company was always fighting for contracts, contracts we used to do (and do well), but whenever they came up for renewal the cheapest bidder won ... and then a year later we get the contract back because they just could not deliver and we had to take over a mess. And this cycle continued.
And you wonder why peoples wages keep going to pot.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I currently work as a care consultant. The average tender is scored about 70% on cost, 30% on quality, I'd say. If you come in at £15 an hour and the other guy comes in at £16.50 an hour, you've near won even with some pretty severe structural problems. It's appalling, but councils can't really do anything else because they can't afford it. Austerity disproportionately fell on local government spending, rather than central spending - we've seen a lot of places lose a third of their budget in real terms over the last 7 years.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Maybe 60 identifiable. There were 600 in that building. After midnight. Less than sixty got out.
No. There are currently 17 dead and 65 missing.
To echo Jazzy - please elaborate if you can.
The 'how' and 'why' in the descriptions links are incredibly vague.
100% believe you are on the level, it will just encourage peace of mind for donators
Fair point! I've added some more information to the original post. Obviously, I'm sharing this as an individual but if you got any questions about the organisation I'll be more than happy to answer them.
Public bodies are somewhat obliged to go with the cheapest tender still, to not be accused of wasting tax payers money. There is a world of difference between going with the lowest bid and the one with the best value though. Current procurement methods still mean that contractors would low ball in the bid to get the job and then try to recoup and make profit by finding variations, saving on materials to every area they can get away with. The reports by Egan and others have talked about the problem of the UK construction industry back in the 90s but not a lot have changed.
I have no idea about the refurbishment project, but I might guess that it was a Design and Build job, where the architects is only responsible up to concept stage and then the contractor would probably try to do it as cheaply as possible, depending on the nature of the specification and the contract.
jellies_two
Member
Yes they do, they are all there and running out of images so a riot would really be perfect for them right now as it involves muslims, immigrants, rich, poor, the mayor and Theresa May
Charles Brandon
Member
Thanks
I did google localgiving btw and it came up as trustworthy from a cursory search (not that I was expecting skullduggery).
Given the offer of doubling donations seems like this is the page to donate to, if you haven't already or want to donate again,
Yes they do, they are all there and running out of images so a riot would really be perfect for them right now as it involves muslims, immigrants, rich, poor, the mayor and Theresa May
I really urge people to resist any attempts made by the media (or people on social media) to make this decisive. This is not about white, black or brown or about Muslims or even about rich or poor. The people on that tower came from all walks of life, from Syrian asylum seekers, to artists with African heritage, to white working class ethnically British people. And whilst many/most of the people who lived there would have been 'poor', especially by London standards, there were a number of refurbished privately owned and privately let properties which were occupied by wealthier people.
That is not to deny that the poverty of the residents in general may have been a factor in the lack of care taken by the TMO/Council, just that is a mixed area across all social strata and Grenfell tower itself was no different.
Charles Brandon
Member
ignore dp
Which is irrelevant. The materials used still have to meet British safety standards.
Daffy Duck
Member
I assume by now they must have a pretty concrete list of possible numbers of a)those in hospital b) those that lost their lives c) those alive and well d) those who are missing
GoldenCrow
Member
Even with those figures that would still be speculation and many more factors that are most likely in play such as people visiting which would make the figures inaccurate. The police usually go by the policy of only announcing death figures if they have dead bodies.
I don't get the morbid fascination of having a count of the dead, we know it is bad and people are working their arses off to get information.
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