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[joseph1594]

To people who say this is hateful, to me Muhammad has became a symbol of free speech. Showing Muhammad now to me isn't about offending Muslims, but exercising your right to free speech. I respect all religions (even though I'm agnostic), but the depiction of Muhammad in art/tv has became something else. Every other religious figure is able to be slandered (and rightfully so due to free speech), but for some reason Muhammad can't be drawn just because a group of extremists (who are dangerous but small minority).

By the way, I have already drawn Muhammad recently in MS Paint, in support of freedom of speech. So I already have my pic ready.

 

[jay]

I don't think that it's inherently incoherent, especially when you consider the context of the time, when people did worship all kinds of strange shit.

They had seen that, in parts of the Christian tradition people worshipped saints and images of other important figures instead of God himself. Why people did that was irrelevant to them, they just issued a ban against the practice.

I understand that historically a lot of people did worship random crap, it just seems like an antiquated rule. What's laughable is people getting extremely angry and even violent over something pretty clearly not much of a real threat. Or maybe the Muslim leaders don't think much of their flock and worry constantly they may ditch Allah and Mohamed for the newest cool looking rock and idolatry is an ever present threat.

 

[2San]

You know what's ironic? The vast majority of these people have not given a shit about freedom of speech until there was a chance to go for some religion-baiting. Lowest common denominator.

I kind of know what you mean. Freedom of religion is deeply rooted in Freedom of speech. People say what's so bad about these pictures, but go batshit crazy if a government official wears a head scarf. Funny how freedom of speech only works one way.

 

[ianp622]

Sagan was a scientific skeptic who was also deeply in love with humanity as a whole. The quote you posted which refers to "upsetting people" is talking about science in general taking over religion. This has absolutely nothing to do with that.

This sort of thing would have upset Carl Sagan, as it does exactly the opposite of what he wanted to happen: to bridge the gap between cultures, and to realize that, as cheesy as it sounds, we are all one and the same. These are views he espoused constantly.

I can't speak for Carl Sagan, nor can I say what would have upset him - I can only go by what he says. However, I think we lost any possibility of a bridge after the death threats. This seems like a rather small "attack" against Islam, and if they can't handle it, they need to grow up.

 

[Kad5]

But where did that come from? Are they just being over-sensitive? You have there is no right not to be offended. I'm offended by televangelists on my TV but I have to right to be free of that nor is violence against them justified.

Im just talking about muslims in general would get offended. The majority of muslims naturally aren't out to kill you or anyone who makes fun of their prophet. If that were true the world would be pretty fucked up seeing as how Islam has a massive amount of followers.

 

[Undeux]

How pathetic. One small group (what was it, twenty-something editors?) makes a threat and now we have license to offend an entire population in the interest of "free speech"? Grow the fuck up.

 

[Aeonin]

When a network station fails to show images of the prophet, they are bowing down to external pressure. However, this is not a direct infringement of anyone's free speech.

Hmm, maybe this is where people are having an issue with your argument. Killing people because of images = infringement of free speech. Make no mistake, people have died over this. The external pressure you speak of is the infringement of free speech. I hope you understand that.

 

[jay]

How pathetic. One small group (what was it, twenty-something editors?) makes a threat and now we have license to offend an entire population in the interest of "free speech"? Grow the fuck up.

This special thinking is the problem with the whole situation. When it comes to every other sacred cow people don't even think twice and there isn't a parade of tolerance meeting them with resistance. Because people are afraid of death threats and riots Islam has become a special case and I personally believe we need to get to a point where at least in Western culture it isn't special, it's just another religion anyone can mock or celebrate like all of the rest.

License to offend a population. Holy shit, do you read what you're saying? People constantly offend people yet we all manage to carry on. You're making a special case out of this one population. I made fun of Catholics and Protestants last page but I didn't see you rescuing the poor Christians hurt hearts.

 

[jakonovski]

I can't speak for Carl Sagan, nor can I say what would have upset him - I can only go by what he says. However, I think we lost any possibility of a bridge after the death threats. This seems like a rather small "attack" against Islam, and if they can't handle it, they need to grow up.

A billion Muslims made a death threat? Damn.

 

[ronito]

How pathetic. One small group (what was it, twenty-something editors?) makes a threat and now we have license to offend an entire population in the interest of "free speech"? Grow the fuck up.

to be fair, we've always had the license. Didn't need their permission. That's how free speech works.

 

[Magni]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEXmf1s9EwE

If we can make fun of Jesus, we should be able to make fun of Mohammed, no? All the Muslims I know don't give a shit anyways :lol

 

[gerg]

Whether anyone likes it or not, the image that some Muslims have garnered in the public consciousness is that of religious people who are from another age of human civilization and expect the entire world to turn and change its attitudes, mores, and opinions for their benefit.

Fixed.

 

[Blair]

How pathetic. One small group (what was it, twenty-something editors?) makes a threat and now we have license to offend an entire population in the interest of "free speech"? Grow the fuck up.

Tell me, why should drawing this man be off limits? Its offensive? Well maybe they should drop such a fucking stupid demand from their religion. What if christians all of a sudden said 'ok, from now on, no drawing Jesus' ? People would laugh and remind them what year we are living in.

 

[Undeux]

This special thinking is the problem with the whole situation. When it comes to every other sacred cow people don't even think twice and there isn't a parade of tolerance meeting them with resistance. Because people are afraid of death threats and riots Islam has become a special case and I personally believe we need to get to a point where at least in Western culture it isn't special, it's just another religion anyone can mock or celebrate like all of the rest.

I agree that Muslims in America should have the more Americanized, free speech-fueled reaction, but the fact is that doing this and saying that we shouldn't care about non-American's opinions because "what!? Fuckin free speech, bro!" is being totally ignorant. Different cultures, different values.

 

[GSG Flash]

I'm a Muslim, I don't like this, but I don't blame the people drawing the images, but rather I blame RevolutionMuslim.com.

However, I do feel that all Muslims are being attacked here for something that dumbass on RevolutionMuslim.com said, when RevolutionMuslim.com definitely does not represent me, or any other Muslim for that matter, at all, in fact, I'd get it shut down if I could.

A better idea would have been to draw images and then send them to/post them on RevolutionMuslim.com, because right now all you're going to do is make Muslims, who were indifferent to this whole South Park situation, feel like they're being attacked for no reason.

 

[lol51]

Intolerance? Give me a fucking break. This isn't a "Make Fun of Muslim People Day" or "Call For the Death of Muslims Day". The mere fact that drawing innocent pictures of Muhammed is considered "indecent" and "insulting" to Muslims--to the point where it assaults our freedom of speech--is the very reason this is being done. It's an understandable and expected reaction to such an absurd violation of one's right to unharmful expression in this country. Particularly when no one else is standing up to speak out against it--Muslims included.

I don't want to hear "Ohh, but you're insulting 1.5 billion muslims in reaction to what only a few of them are doing." The number is irrelevant when muslim leaders and the muslim community as a whole does nothing to speak out against this nonsense. One way or another, they are going to have to learn that they cannot impose their values and religious opinions on other cultures. Caving in to the pressure of some nutty muslims every time they make a threat (and it'll get to the point where censorship won't even require specific threats) only worsens the situation by empowering these whackjobs.

My example served to illustrate the lack of civility there is towards muslims. People understand that hanging a noose from your tree is insensitive. It could be your right to hang your rope from your tree. But performing such an act gains you the disapproval of society. People are not don't banding together to hang nooses in their communities as a form of protest since their freedom of speech is being assaulted. Well they might have decades ago...

Nobody is imposing muslim values on you. The media is choosing to be sensitive and respectful of people who are offended by such imagery. Not all muslims are offended. Not all offended muslims are protesters. Not all protesters make threats.

Also if you claim that 'no one else is standing up to speak out against it--Muslims included' how can you claim that 'impose their values and religious opinions on other cultures'.

 

[demon]

How pathetic. One small group (what was it, twenty-something editors?) makes a threat and now we have license to offend an entire population in the interest of "free speech"? Grow the fuck up.

When "one small group" makes threats under the banner of a religion of 1.5 billion people and virtually none of them- leaders included- speak out against it, that religion as a whole is responsible. It's not like this is a one-time recent incident that the muslim community hasn't had time to respond to, either.

 

[ianp622]

How pathetic. One small group (what was it, twenty-something editors?) makes a threat and now we have license to offend an entire population in the interest of "free speech"? Grow the fuck up.

Fuck yeah, we do. Free speech is one of our most valuable possessions, and if I have to offend every single person on the earth to protect it, I will. The Constitution is the envy of many other countries, because it protects our free speech from becoming compromised by religion. Getting offended is part of life, and people who can't deal with that are the ones that need to grow up.

I don't even use the word offended. I don't say I find certain things offensive. Some things may be insensitive, but that's something I can accept. You can say anything to me to my face about me, my family, my race, my decisions in life, my lack of religion, and I really don't care. If you do the same to someone I care about, I'll retaliate, because it shows I care about that person and I don't assume that everyone is as thick-skinned as I am.

We're just helping certain people grow up faster. Is that really so bad?

Besides, this is not "one small group".

 

[jay]

I agree that Muslims in America should have the more Americanized, free speech-fueled reaction, but the fact is that doing this and saying that we shouldn't care about non-American's opinions because "what!? Fuckin free speech, bro!" is being totally ignorant. Different cultures, different values.

So living in America I should follow other cultures' value systems? I don't understand.

This sounds like the traditional relativism position that ends up being everyone who isn't us has a right to their opinions and cultures.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

OK, not wacky relative to other religious but that doesn't say much.

It is wacky because do they really think anyone will start worshiping my crudely drawn image? I can see them not wanting statutes of Mohammad in Mosques or town squares where idolatry might actually occur. But cartoons? Are they really worried people will worship them? The whole concept of idolatry got lost.

i·dol·a·try (-dl-tr)
n. pl. i·dol·a·tries
1. Worship of idols.

Exactly. It's not an idol unless you make it one.

The really stupid thing about it is that they obviously idolize the guy that, to them, speaks absolutely truth. So what the hell are they bitching about? If you're a muslim than you are idolizing mohammad. It's the most popular name on the planet. Naming your son Mohammad isn't idolizing?

It's a little weird to be all modest about and offended over your god when it comes to visual idols, when they overdo just about any other form of idolization. You're calling man you worship, god. It doesn't get any more idol-licious than that.

The fear mongering and oversensitivity needs to stop. It's time to push back. Not in a violent way, but in a way that any human being with any sense of the planet in which they live on should be easily able to shrug off.

 

[ronito]

My example served to illustrate the lack of civility there is towards muslims. People understand that hanging a noose from your tree is insensitive. It could be your right to hang your rope from your tree. But performing such an act gains you the disapproval of society. People are not don't banding together to hang nooses in their communities as a form of protest since their freedom of speech is being assaulted. Well they might have decades ago...

Nobody is imposing muslim values on you. The media is choosing to be sensitive and respectful of people who are offended by such imagery. Not all muslims are offended. Not all offended muslims are protesters. Not all protesters make threats.

Riiiight, that's a false analogy. Because no one's used Mohammed to kill peop....oh.

Also I do find it interesting the whole DO NOT DRAW MOHAMMED DEATH TO FREE SPEECH!

But France tries to take away viels/burqa and they're like MY FREE SPEECH!!

 

[Keylime]

I'm a Muslim, I don't like this, but I don't blame the people drawing the images, but rather I blame RevolutionMuslim.com.

However, I do feel that all Muslims are being attacked here for something that dumbass on RevolutionMuslim.com said, when RevolutionMuslim.com definitely does not represent me, or any other Muslim for that matter, at all, in fact, I'd get it shut down if I could.

A better idea would have been to draw images and then send them to/post them on RevolutionMuslim.com, because right now all you're going to do is make Muslims, who were indifferent to this whole South Park situation, feel like they're being attacked for no reason.

I don't understand the Muslim faith, and I should probably do some reading, but aren't all these violent acts justified in the eyes of the religion? Some of it's followers may not go to such extremes, but aren't a lot of these people quoting some religious texts as justification for their actions?

 

[BattleMonkey]

And this is how WW3 starts. South Park Censorship.

 

[Mr. Sam]

I don't understand the Muslim faith, and I should probably do some reading, but aren't all these violent acts justified in the eyes of the religion? Some of it's followers may not go to such extremes, but aren't a lot of these people quoting some religious texts as justification for their actions?

Open to interpretation, wrongly translated, etc. etc.

 

[jay]

I don't understand the Muslim faith, and I should probably do some reading, but aren't all these violent acts justified in the eyes of the religion? Some of it's followers may not go to such extremes, but aren't a lot of these people quoting some religious texts as justification for their actions?

The problem is the Bible justifies awful shit Christians just ignore. For example you're not supposed to be friends with non-Christians.

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

So you can't fairly say that because some old book says it the people follow it.

 

[gerg]

Fuck yeah, we do. Free speech is one of our most valuable possessions, and if I have to offend every single person on the earth to protect it, I will. The Constitution is the envy of many other countries, because it protects our free speech from becoming compromised by religion. Getting offended is part of life, and people who can't deal with that are the ones that need to grow up.

There's a difference between people being offended and actively going out of your way to offend people: "free speech" should not be used as a tool to remove one's responsibility for their actions - the man who shouts "Fire!" in an open auditorium should not go unpunished.

I imagine that the reality is that there are lots of moderate Muslims who may very well be offended by seeing depictions of the prophet Mohammud (be they intentionally derogatry or otherwise). Stereotyping all those who hold such beliefs as backwards extremists because of it is ridiculous.

We're just helping certain people grow up faster. Is that really so bad?

Yes, because this is an incredibly arrogant view that pertains that only your beliefs are adequate.

 

[jakonovski]

I think I have managed to condense the point that so many are missing:

Freedom of speech does not equal acting like you have Tourette's.

 

[Dead Man]

I think I have managed to condense the point that so many are missing:

Freedom of speech does not equal acting like you have Tourette's.

Here, I'll try. Freedom of speech means you can act like you have Tourettes.

 

[2San]

Open to interpretation, wrongly translated, etc. etc.

Pretty much.

Before people come in then why did they write it in such a vague way. I can be creative with current Law books as well. Most extremist are illiterate people or people who don't even take the time to study their own religion. They follow one leader and choose to ignore all the others.

 

[jakonovski]

Here, I'll try. Freedom of speech means you can act like you have Tourettes.

Go knock yourself out, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously if you do.

 

[jay]

I think I have managed to condense the point that so many are missing:

Freedom of speech does not equal acting like you have Tourette's.

Luckily my culture doesn't agree with you as the Constitution places extremely few limitations on that freedom.

 

[miserabile visu]

why must we have this racialist hate. Why cant we just get along and respect and treat one and other well and nice?

I think we all should sit down and double think what we say. These muslimofobic tendencies must stop. Or else humanity can never move on.

 

[Dead Man]

Go knock yourself out, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously if you do.

Well, drawing a picture of a man is hardly acting like you have Tourettes, but if you feel the need to confuse the two, you just shine on.

 

[gerg]

Luckily my culture doesn't agree with you as the Constitution places extremely few limitations on that freedom.

Perhaps, but I imagine that the general point is that "free speech" is not a pass to do anything or to say anything you want. Free speech does not remove responsibility from the speaker.

 

[Dead Man]

Perhaps, but I imagine that the general point is that "free speech" is not a pass to do anything or to say anything you want. Free speech does not remove responsibility from the speaker.

Indeed. But an insult also does not remove responsibility from the attacker.

 

[jay]

why must we have this racialist hate. Why cant we just get along and respect and treat one and other well and nice?

I think we all should sit down and double think what we say. These muslimofobic tendencies must stop. Or else humanity can never move on.

Do you think http://www.landoverbaptist.org/ should be closed down or is this another double standard typical of these discussions?

Perhaps, but I imagine that the general point is that "free speech" is not a pass to do anything or to say anything you want. Free speech does not remove responsibility from the speaker.

Of course not, I never implied it did. You have every right to feel however you want at my speech.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

Yes, because this is an incredibly arrogant view that pertains that only your beliefs are adequate.

:lol Yes, it's not the muslims that are arrogant here. Nooo, it's us...for drawing things! How arrogant.

 

[jakonovski]

Well, drawing a picture of a man is hardly acting like you have Tourettes, but if you feel the need to confuse the two, you just shine on.

You're only doing it because you know it will offend some people, and one variant of Tourette's is randomly spewing obscenities. You could fool an honest man.

 

[Walshicus]

There's a difference between people being offended and actively going out of your way to offend people: "free speech" should not be used as a tool to remove one's responsibility for their actions - the man who shouts "Fire!" in an open auditorium should not go unpunished.

Every other stupid little group gets insulted and made fun of on this rock, Muslims should be no different.

 

[ronito]

You're only doing it because you know it will offend some people, and one variant of Tourette's is randomly spewing obscenities. You could fool an honest man.

Or perhaps you're just drawing it. And the person decides it's offensive.

 

[speculawyer]

I think I have managed to condense the point that so many are missing:

Freedom of speech does not equal acting like you have Tourette's.

But there is a point to being obnoxious. You can't let a group of people intimidate you out of being able to speak freely. I don't think government officials should be touring Islamic countries and spouting intentionally offensive crap.

But if a group of people of people are going to make threats of violence over particular speech, I think there is a legitimate point in having another group of people stand up and defy the violent threat.

 

[Dead Man]

You're only doing it because you know it will offend some people, and one variant of Tourette's is randomly spewing obscenities. You could fool an honest man.

I'm not doing it at all. But if I was, it would be because I don't believe any group has the right to tell me what to say, unless by doing so I cause danger or injury. I choose not to say some things, because I believe in courtesy, but if I did choose to say or draw certain things, that would be my right.

 

[Maleficence]

Every other stupid little group gets insulted and made fun of on this rock, Muslims should be no different.

Muslims get insulted and made fun of all the time. This is particularly stupid, not because of that, but because it's an organised childish response. A childish response from individuals is one thing, but organsing a whole day dedicated to a childish response is another.

 

[jakonovski]

Or perhaps you're just drawing it. And the person decides it's offensive.

I guess you think "nigger" is just another word too.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

You're only doing it because you know it will offend some people, and one variant of Tourette's is randomly spewing obscenities. You could fool an honest man.

Again, why haven't you debated this in threads about Family Guy, South Park, every movie, and every TV show that has something offensive just to be offensive it your years on GAF?

You probably enjoy a lot of things, and now you're a Knight.

 

[jakonovski]

I'm not doing it at all. But if I was, it would be because I don't believe any group has the right to tell me what to say, unless by doing so I cause danger or injury. I choose not to say some things, because I believe in courtesy, but if I did choose to say or draw certain things, that would be my right.

Hey, I have every right to tell you what to say, don't restrict my freedom of speech!

 

[Magni]

Plantu is great.

Spoiler

Je ne dois pas dessiner Mahomet = I must not draw Mohammed.

 

[jay]

I'm starting to come around but you guys don't go far enough. Religion shouldn't be the only thing off the table. Comedians and people at large should stop using words that are mainly used to offend people. Entire populations are offended when you use the word cunt, for example, and it's just got to stop. Since when has freedom of speech been about being able to say things that other people don't like?

I guess you think "nigger" is just another word too.

Perfect example. I heard comedians use that word and they should be arrested.

 

[Blair]

You're only doing it because you know it will offend some people, and one variant of Tourette's is randomly spewing obscenities. You could fool an honest man.

If people get upset, its their own fault for thinking the world is going to play along with their stupid demand.

 

[ronito]

I guess you think "nigger" is just another word too.

OMG JIHAD!!!!.....of mercy.