Support NeoGAF

[Jak140]

People who say this is being offensive for it's own sake are missing the point. The point is to not let threats of violence overthrow free speech, not to offend anyone.

And yes, some people may be offended, but why should anyone let what other people believe dictate how they live their lives? I'm not going to start believing in god because not believing offends some people and gay people shouldn't have to pretend to be straight not to offend religious homophobes.

Anywho, I'll just leave these here. These first two are taken:

The rest are up for grabs:

 

[Yousefb]

dibs

edit: oops i should learn how to read, took the jesus one instead

 

[Comic]

The point is to not let threats of violence overthrow free speech, not to offend anyone.

It won't really mean a darn thing in the end, except a bunch of people could be offended and nothing has been 'stopped'. That which has been censored will remain so. There's a pretty big difference between something airing on television and anything on the internet.

It has the positive effectiveness of an online petition, with a LOT more effort involved. :lol I personally suggest anyone who has strong enough feelings on the topic to find something that would really make a statement that might make some difference and do so, because this won't really be it. (Whether you're supporting the event or arguing against it on an internet forum)

 

[Parallax Scroll]

.

Roi, could you please update the OP with a link to the original article or at least name your source? Maybe it's been posted in the thread, but after reading the first 50 posts I haven't seen it yet.

 

[Mad Max]

Again, I fail to see how this is any different from calling someone an nigger. By drawing pictures of muhammad you insult something that billions of people keep dear and holy to themselfs. I don't either see how this work as a statement. Small group of muslims take the extreme road and to "stop" them you will offend the rest of the group.

Religion and race are two completely different things, black people didn't choose to be black or to be enslaved and to be shipped of to america, but muslims chose to become muslim which makes this a different issue. In a modern society religion simply shouldn't be exempt from criticism, just because it offends people.

 

[Snaku]

Religion and race are two completely different things, black people didn't choose to be black or to be enslaved and to be shipped of to america, but muslims chose to become muslim which makes this a different issue.

You're overlooking the childhood indoctrination aspect.

 

[jay]

It's horrible debating with dudes whose arguments rely on cultural references and who can't make arguments that stand on their own. Cultural knowledge is worth shit in comparison to "critical thinking" skills.

Also, some people don't like to read because they normally find what authors have to say fatuous and boring.

So just get over yourself and explain to him what Candide is and how it's relevant, or at the very least offer an example he is familiar with. Geez.

I already gave a description of what it was a few pages ago. When the discussion is over how cultural objects such as art and books should be treated I do not think understanding some history of culture is worth shit compared to critical thought.

Also, I was under the impression gerg was a philosophy major and I have already apologized to him. Glad you got that out of your system, though.

Your middle paragraph is stupid. Maybe I should quote your tag.

 

[Mad Max]

You're overlooking the childhood indoctrination aspect.

Maybe, but you'd think muslims who'd hear about this stuff would also be atleast somewhat familiar with ideas like athiesm, deism, freedom of speach, other religions etc. I also don't think ignorance should limit people's freedom of speech in the west.

 

[Blair]

You're overlooking the childhood indoctrination aspect.

In that case, criticism is a good thing. Many break free of the bullshit by reading their religion being held to scrutiny.

 

[Cdammen]

Less talking more drawing.

 

[demon]

I got into a long phone call right before I was about to finish this post so it is a bit of a delayed response, but anyway...

STFU. You're not black. And you're not muslim.

No, it's ridiculous for demon to say what is and what isn't offensive. Especially considering he has no personal knowledge of how the word nigger or a drawing of Mohammed could be offensive. Absurd. You can't tell people what they can and can't be offended by.

What does having personal knowledge have to do with anything? I was taught since grade school about the history of black oppression in this country. I think I have a pretty good idea of why the word "nigger" is offensive. Quite frankly I don't at all see how not being black (or let's take it a step further, not having been a black slave) has anything to do with one's ability to understand what black people went through in the past 300 years in this country and why a word like "nigger" will offend some. It's ignorant to say someone has to be black to understand that. I find it funny that I would have to respond to this kind of post shortly after being accused of not having empathy. :lol

And yes, I'll admit I have less knowledge of the muslim faith. I have serious doubts however that after a lot of digging I would find any reason that Muslims should be more offended by a non-Muslim depicting an image of Muhammad than someone from any other religion should be offended by criticism and satire against their religion and depictions of their prophets. In the end, it's a matter of choosing to practice a religion, a belief system, and being offended by the pot-shots people will take at it, be they intelligent and insightful or dim-witted and immature, and having to roll with them as one would have to in a free society. I never said these people don't have the right to be offended. But what I will do is make judgments about how silly some offenses are. This would be on the other end of the spectrum but there are people out there who are sincerely offended and hurt if you insult their favorite sports team. Being offended because someone drew a picture of your prophet is somewhere between that and being called a word that had been used to refer to your people during centuries of slavery and oppression. Again, if you can't see the difference, I can only assume you're just being intentionally obtuse.

As for the matter at hand, when some of you say "But this will offend 1.5 billion Muslims!", I say "tough shit". Whether it's the most effective form or not, this protest is a form of criticism, and there is really no such thing as criticism that doesn't offend someone. And I can't think of anything more deserving and in need of criticism than something as archaic and problematic and with such a sense of entitlement to being above criticism as a religion like Islam. (Or any religion for that matter.) If These 1.5 billion Muslims don't want to be associated with the number of Muslims who call for the death of those who insult Islam and successfully stifle free speech in other cultures through threats of violence, then it's time for them and their leaders to stand up and speak out against it. If Christians pulled stunts like this in the US they would be ostracized from the Christian community in a heartbeat.

I understand the motivation behind the "day", what I also understand is that the motivation by people who actually create images will not be as just.

I remember my dad telling me that back in the days of the counter-culture/anti-war protests, a large number of people protesting were just there to make noise and knock shit over and didn't really care about the cause. So I guess it goes with the territory.

 

[kinoki]

Shamelessly stolen.

 

[Shanadeus]

Fine, here's some pictures with class, I won't be lowering myself to the level of mongrels:

 

[Kad5]

One thing I have to add about Mohammed. You all have to at least agree that the man was nothing less than a genius. Think about it.

Right before he went to the cave to pray and before he met Gabriel for the first time he was pondering on how to solve the issue of poverty. That may be connected to the fact that muslims have to donate to the poor.

 

[FoneBone]

If These 1.5 billion Muslims don't want to be associated with the number of Muslims who call for the death of those who insult Islam and successfully stifle free speech in other cultures through threats of violence, then it's time for them and their leaders to stand up and speak out against it.

To reiterate -- treating 1.5 billion people from wildly disparate backgrounds as a monolithic group is really, really stupid. And I'm not saying that there are nearly enough moderate responses -- sadly, there has yet to exist a well-funded, organized liberal movement of the sorts that exist in Judaism and Christianity -- but you can't ask them all to behave as some sort of unity.

Furthermore, imams aren't formally ordained. There simply aren't organized regional/national religious hierarchies of the sort that exist in Christianity and Judaism.

(Great. I'm as liberal as they come, and I'm still going to be attacked for this.)

 

[Maleficence]

To reiterate -- treating 1.5 billion people from wildly disparate backgrounds as a monolithic group is really, really stupid. And I'm not saying that there are nearly enough moderate responses -- sadly, there has yet to exist a well-funded, organized liberal movement of the sorts that exist in Judaism and Christianity -- but you can't ask them all to behave as some sort of unity.

I think there are responses, I know for sure that my particular organisation gives condemnations to all acts of violence (not sure if this extends to threats, but they're certainly not acceptable), but I think the media just don't think it makes a good story. They thrive on controversy, and it's not controversial for a religious organisation to condemn terrorists. Or maybe it doesn't fit into their agenda if they have one.

 

[Maleficence]

One thing I have to add about Mohammed. You all have to at least agree that the man was nothing less than a genius. Think about it.

Right before he went to the cave to pray and before he met Gabriel for the first time he was pondering on how to solve the issue of poverty. That may be connected to the fact that muslims have to donate to the poor.

There was a list made, I remember I read at one point, about the most important figures in history, Jesus came in at 2nd with Mohammed in at 1st because of his ability as a leader in so many different fields. Historical Mohammed was a fascinating figure, but unfortunately he's not been explored that much in the mainstream.

 

[Trident]

I had to give up at page 2, but I hope somebody already explained that carving swastikas into Jewish kids desks isn't wrong because it's "offensive." The Jewish kid doesn't see that and go "garsh darn it, my beliefs have been insulted!" It's wrong because it carries the underlying message of a threat. A Jewish kid sees a swastika on his desk and thinks "somebody wants to fuck me up."

A Muslim who sees an insulting depiction of Mohammed (in the context of Draw Mohammed day) doesn't think "somebody wants to beat me up! I am in physical harm!" He just thinks "my beliefs have been insulted."

The two situations are not equivalent. The psychology it creates on the viewer are completely different. In America, we (at least, most of us) believe people have to deal with being offended, but not with reasonably believing they are being put under the threat of harm.

 

[Gouken]

you guys obviously have not respect or views of any religion, mod please lock this useless thread!

 

[kaizoku]

To reiterate -- treating 1.5 billion people from wildly disparate backgrounds as a monolithic group is really, really stupid. And I'm not saying that there are nearly enough moderate responses -- sadly, there has yet to exist a well-funded, organized liberal movement of the sorts that exist in Judaism and Christianity -- but you can't ask them all to behave as some sort of unity.

this man has a point, religion has gone from being a set of beliefs to being some kind of tribal shit where we wave flags and get offended at the stupidest shit. its a bunch of beliefs, you dont sign up to a secret organisation or pledge your allegiance to anything. its like, not all mcdonalds eaters can join together to show the world how they think mcdonalds is superior to burger king or kfc.

its like if we invented a time machine and sent the Spice Girls back in time to pre-religion eras and wowed them with concerts, we'd probably get a spice girls fanclub and each person would have a favourite spice girl. they'd think they were all ok but lean towards one in particular.

Then when the spice girls split up and go solo, people who used to support the same group suddenly turn tribal because baby spice fans said ginger spice was trashy and sporty spice was telling everyone baby spice wasn't a virgin anymore and posh spice fans went off and became some strange posh and becks cult. ffs.

its a fucking picture of a prophet and people have been killed cos the prophet said he doesnt want to be worshipped. come on people, this is just as absurd as my spice girls example. people are free to believe and worship whatever and whoever they like, just stay away from the rest of us!

p.s. I believe Lost is the best show ever but anyone who says Lost is shit is gonna get beat up for disrespecting my opinion and therefore disrespecting my entire tv watching history which goes back to what my mum and dad showed me as a kid and you're gonna fucking pay for insulting my family you fuckers!!

 

[Ducks]

I'm not going to draw him, because I don't know anything about the religion, and it doesn't affect me. Still, I believe in free speech and I support people who want to draw whatever they want.

I don't really want to go around offending random people for no reason, when I know nothing about them.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

you guys obviously have not respect or views of any religion, mod please lock this useless thread!

this.

gaf is pretty disgusting sometimes.

but who's really surprised.

 

[Atramental]

you guys obviously have not respect or views of any religion, mod please lock this useless thread!

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

 

[GillianSeed79]

Hindus believe cows are sacred. That doesn't stop a whole lot of people from eating steak because they are afraid they offended Hindus. They point is Hindus don't issue death threats for stupid shit like a cartoon. Imagine if Chick-Fil-A pulled their Eat More Chikin adds because it features talking cows and they received death threats. It's the same thing.

.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

you guys obviously have not respect or views of any religion, mod please lock this useless thread!

you obviously don't care about how satire has helped humanity in history.

 

[Thai]

yea this is pretty insensitive.

they should do a "burn the american flag day" in retribution.

 

[GillianSeed79]

yea this is pretty insensitive.

they should do a "burn the american flag day" in retribution.

I'm pretty sure that's called Tuesday.

 

[SapientWolf]

People who say this is being offensive for it's own sake are missing the point. The point is to not let threats of violence overthrow free speech, not to offend anyone.

The bigger issue for me is that, when a group kowtows to threats of violence, they also give the message that violence works to get your message across. So now other people have to send the message that it doesn't work to make up for Comedy Central's lack of fortitude.

 

[Dabookerman]

yea this is pretty insensitive.

they should do a "burn the american flag day" in retribution.

I think that's done before dinner in most parts :lol

 

[MrMysterio]

Fantastic thread! First few pages are gold.

Anyway, I'll bet there will be a couple of good drawings coming out of this (along with a lot of shit ones naturally).

Would have loved to see this A LOT MORE right after the Danish cartoonists received death threats, and not after South Park was censored... oh well, there's still hope 50 years from now we can simply claim it was a reaction to the cartoonists debacle.

 

[Esch]

This is a fucking stupid idea.

It's childish, needlessly offensive, and is less about trying to prove some pithy point and more about enraging a certain group of people just because they know they can. Facebook should honestly take this shit down before it gets worse than it is now.

 

[Nemo]

Oh god

 

[blame space]

This is a fucking stupid idea.

It's childish, needlessly offensive, and is less about trying to prove some pithy point and more about enraging a certain group of people just because they know they can. Facebook should honestly take this shit down before it gets worse than it is now.

 

[Jin34]

Which shouldn't happen. And they have every right to protest it if they wanted to. And to be honest, a "good" person would never go out of their way to insult a group of people just for their own amusement. Its just an asshole thing to do.

You heard Baki guys, we have to ban comedy.

 

[SapientWolf]

This is a fucking stupid idea.

It's childish, needlessly offensive, and is less about trying to prove some pithy point and more about enraging a certain group of people just because they know they can. Facebook should honestly take this shit down before it gets worse than it is now.

No, it's all about proving a pithy point. No idea, person, country or religion is free from criticism. Threats of violence should not and will not prevent people from doing so. It's sad that it had to come to this, but the point has to be made loud and clearly.

 

[Maleficence]

You heard Baki guys, we have to ban comedy.

I heard you say ban, I didn't hear him say it.

And I think comedians who do comedy at the expense of others are assholes. funny assholes, but assholes none the less.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

OK, I've read the entire thread now and there's not a single link to the original article, mention of its source, or link to the facebook group. That is unless Maleficence, womfalcs3, Bboy AJ, Jexhius, or jakonovski posted it. While I generally don't find drawings of religious or historical figures offensive, I do find it offensive to have to listen to stupid people, so they have been added to my ignore list.

I'll post the original article if I can find it.

 

[Cyan]

I'm drawing Mohammed.

 

[gcubed]

No, it's all about proving a pithy point. No idea, person, country or religion is free from criticism. Threats of violence should not and will not prevent people from doing so. It's sad that it had to come to this, but the point has to be made loud and clearly.

exactly this

 

[Maleficence]

OK, I've read the entire thread now and there's not a single link to the original article, mention of its source, or link to the facebook group. That is unless Maleficence, womfalcs3, Bboy AJ, Jexhius, or jakonovski posted it. While I generally don't find drawings of religious or historical figures offensive, I do find it offensive to have to listen to stupid people, so they have been added to my ignore list.

I'll post the original article if I can find it.

:lol :lol

So what exactly have any of us said that is stupid? Never mind, I'm ignored now huh? Guess ignorance really is bliss.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I don't think Facebook should shut them down or that comedy at the expense of a group should be banned or anything (that would be utterly idiotic and I can't believe I have to make that disclaimer).

But I reeeeally don't think it's a good idea to do it in a fashion like this, where the depictions are going to trend towards being as deliberately inflammatory as possible. It's ignoring a certain aspect of the situation: a lot of this Islamic extremism gets off the ground because radical clerics and leaders spread rhetoric and propaganda, convincing otherwise moderate Muslims that the West hates Muslim societies and wants to destroy their culture.

Snapping right back at groups like RevolutionMuslim with images like this seems like a great forceful way to assert freedom of speech (which is a good thing), but it doesn't take into account what's going to happen when those same groups present those images as "proof" to their audiences that Americans and Westerners "hate" Islam. It's just going to backfire.

 

[Maleficence]

I don't think Facebook should shut them down or that comedy at the expense of a group should be banned or anything (that would be utterly idiotic and I can't believe I have to make that disclaimer).

But I reeeeally don't think it's a good idea to do it in a fashion like this, where the depictions are going to trend towards being as deliberately inflammatory as possible. It's ignoring a certain aspect of the situation: a lot of this Islamic extremism gets off the ground because radical clerics and leaders spread rhetoric and propaganda, convincing otherwise moderate Muslims that the West hates Muslim societies and wants to destroy their culture.

Snapping right back at groups like RevolutionMuslim with images like this seems like a great forceful way to assert freedom of speech (which is a good thing), but it doesn't take into account what's going to happen when those same groups present those images as "proof" to their audiences that Americans and Westerners "hate" Islam. It's just going to backfire.

I made this point earlier, but apparently I'm stupid, so maybe they'll listen to you.

 

[Barbacoatl]

Proof? I'll give 'em proof

 

[Cyan]

I don't think Facebook should shut them down or that comedy at the expense of a group should be banned or anything (that would be utterly idiotic and I can't believe I have to make that disclaimer).

But I reeeeally don't think it's a good idea to do it in a fashion like this, where the depictions are going to trend towards being as deliberately inflammatory as possible. It's ignoring a certain aspect of the situation: a lot of this Islamic extremism gets off the ground because radical clerics and leaders spread rhetoric and propaganda, convincing otherwise moderate Muslims that the West hates Muslim societies and wants to destroy their culture.

Snapping right back at groups like RevolutionMuslim with images like this seems like a great forceful way to assert freedom of speech (which is a good thing), but it doesn't take into account what's going to happen when those same groups present those images as "proof" to their audiences that Americans and Westerners "hate" Islam. It's just going to backfire.

You have just described a chilling effect.

 

[RustyNails]

I have to disagree.
By that measuring stick, every sinful behavior in the public space is religious intolerance.
Should I not display pork to not offend Jews and Muslims?
Should I censor The Last Crusade to remove the Tetragrammaton from it?

This is a really dangerous path, and the main reason why people get so worked out about this episode.

Right...so to combat religious intolerance, we promote religious intolerance but this time, under the garb of freedom of expression.

 

[MultiCore]

I'm for this thread. No double standards. I'm sick and tired of the special interest groups hindering freedom in the name of 'being offended'.

Since when do people think they have the right to resort to violence and death to silence someone who's offending them?

 

[wenis]

I don't think Facebook should shut them down or that comedy at the expense of a group should be banned or anything (that would be utterly idiotic and I can't believe I have to make that disclaimer).

But I reeeeally don't think it's a good idea to do it in a fashion like this, where the depictions are going to trend towards being as deliberately inflammatory as possible. It's ignoring a certain aspect of the situation: a lot of this Islamic extremism gets off the ground because radical clerics and leaders spread rhetoric and propaganda, convincing otherwise moderate Muslims that the West hates Muslim societies and wants to destroy their culture.

Snapping right back at groups like RevolutionMuslim with images like this seems like a great forceful way to assert freedom of speech (which is a good thing), but it doesn't take into account what's going to happen when those same groups present those images as "proof" to their audiences that Americans and Westerners "hate" Islam. It's just going to backfire.

I'll just quote this again because it's the only sensical thing being stated in this thread.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

This.

Some of you really need to stop drawing these extremes. Drawing a hangman's noose with a black guy in it is far different than this.

Anyone with ingrained, extremist sacred beliefs is poison to a modern society.

 

[MultiCore]

I'll just quote this again because it's the only sensical thing being stated in this thread.

I disagree. I think the implied threat of "Oh, it's not going to end well if you keep doing this." is outrageous.

I wish people were as fanatical about protecting freedom as these guys are about threatening people they disagree with.

 

[Maleficence]

I'll just quote this again because it's the only sensical thing being stated in this thread.

You really haven't followed this thread than? Loads of people have said the same thing. For some reason it was taken completely differently.