May 20 - Draw Mohammed Day

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Those pictures from BBC. Surely that cannot be real. an army of ninjas, getting upset because someone posts pictures on a web site? Man, if those images upset them then they really should stay off the net. But I suppose it will mean that every single owner of a webpage will have recieved death threats within a couple of years and we can dress the entire web in protective clothing.
 
vordhosbn said:
Again with this? Realistically, I doubt it. This thread only proves that people can be persuaded very easily.

What choices are there for them?

Cause violence at every single instance from now until the end of time, or until either their own Muslim communities or Governments make them stop?

Or learn to deal with it.

Broken record, etc, but people's lives were threatened. Over a cartoon. If cartoons are everywhere, then either one will slip and they'll realize how stupid violence over it is, or they'll only cause violence when publicity can be gained.

And again with this? Yeah, a tenet of the free world, something to take oh, so lightly right? Totally not worth "fighting" (with harmless pictures, mind you) for. Totally.
 
I'm on the side of 'freedom', I don't care what someone on the other side of the planet or even street thinks about my poor drawings. If we give these religious nutjobs their will it won't be long before we can't talk, draw or debate about any religion.
 
Nah, I'm an athiest and I'm pro freedom of speech. But that doesn't mean I'm going to shit on a Bible to piss off a couple extremist Christians. Yeah the Muslim extremists are crazy, but ostracizing all of the moderate Muslims doesn't help the cause of getting rid of the extremism. The South Park cartoon was a perfect example. They already drew Mohammad before, and no one said anything. They took it a step further, and ONE blog - full of nobodies - made a threat, and the media blew it way out of proportion.

I don't think it's a good idea to promote free speech by disrespecting and insulting a whole population of people. That's the same technique the "God Hates Fags" church uses. It's beneath us, I would think.
 
If there was a family on your street with bizarre demands and if you failed to satisfying those demands you would be punished up to and including death, then other families, your fellow neighbours might band together at your side and make a stand.

That's all that's happening here. This isn't about respecting the wishes of others because respect goes out the window when one side consistantly invokes fear with acts with violence. Buildings have been burned down, people have been killed and there has been not much of a condemnation or apology for these actions. In fact the whole moderate Muslim response to this issue has been pretty toothless, meanwhile the non-Muslim response to the cartoon-spawned violence has been solid, steady, and unified the world over.

Maybe the Draw Mohammed day isn't a great idea but just doing nothing while cartoonists and filmakers the world over get terrorized and beheaded drip by drip doesn't sit well with me either.
 
Clipjoint said:
Nah, I'm an athiest and I'm pro freedom of speech. But that doesn't mean I'm going to shit on a Bible to piss off a couple extremist Christians. Yeah the Muslim extremists are crazy, but ostracizing all of the moderate Muslims doesn't help the cause of getting rid of the extremism. The South Park cartoon was a perfect example. They already drew Mohammad before, and no one said anything. They took it a step further, and ONE blog - full of nobodies - made a threat, and the media blew it way out of proportion.
I don't think it's a good idea to promote free speech by disrespecting and insulting a whole population of people. That's the same technique the "God Hates Fags" church uses. It's beneath us, I would think.

yeah but that's the thing, did you notice that almost the entire 201 episode was censored because of those threats? And now episodes 200, and 201 are banned completely. There may only be a few of these fringe extremest muslims in america, but they have the power of millions. How many protesters does it normally take for a show to get off the air? millions. These few muslims did it with just a few death threats. Thats way too much power for them. And they are sending the message that terrorism works.....and right now, yeah it does.
 
I can't believe people are pulling out the respect card... I am offended by the way Muslin dress so I am going to kill anyone I see wearing that type of clothing... Oh no... now they are going to have to stop wearing it because I dont like it... And if they do they are offending me and creating more problems. Its a retarded argument by moderate muslins who know nothing (or deny on purpose) about their own religion.

An oldie but goodie talk from the master about respect and being "offended"

http://www.youtube.com/user/RichardDawkinsVideos#p/f/2/PaJelU29jeI
 
Clipjoint said:
Nah, I'm an athiest and I'm pro freedom of speech. But that doesn't mean I'm going to shit on a Bible to piss off a couple extremist Christians. Yeah the Muslim extremists are crazy, but ostracizing all of the moderate Muslims doesn't help the cause of getting rid of the extremism. The South Park cartoon was a perfect example. They already drew Mohammad before, and no one said anything. They took it a step further, and ONE blog - full of nobodies - made a threat, and the media blew it way out of proportion.

I don't think it's a good idea to promote free speech by disrespecting and insulting a whole population of people. That's the same technique the "God Hates Fags" church uses. It's beneath us, I would think.

Pretty sure the "god hates fags" thing is literal. There's no humor to it. There's no irony or sarcasm or wit to it. They actually believe what they're writing.

This is the equivalent of somebody standing next to a church nut with a "god hates fags" sign and putting up their own saying "I love the penis. Man penis." Not only is it funny, but it ridicules people that deserve it in a non-threatening way. If you want to get offended by the "penis" sign, fine. You don't have a sense of humor and you're dumb to be offended by it. Call it immature, but that's the point. You're being satirized. That's the taste of your own medicine that is making you pucker.

Again immature for the sake of making a point and being humorous > being immature to the core. You're comparing Abbot and Costello to Kim Jong Ill because both technically act immature and silly. They can't be more different.
 
Clipjoint said:
The South Park cartoon was a perfect example. They already drew Mohammad before, and no one said anything. They took it a step further, and ONE blog - full of nobodies - made a threat, and the media blew it way out of proportion.
You're confused, my man. They took it a step less far. They didn't even show Muhammad in this one, just made a joke about how they were afraid of showing him.

It got blown out of proportion not because of the blog, but because of CC's reaction. They censored the South Park cartoon because they were afraid of their employees being harmed. The "blog full of nobodies" was successful with their threat. They got exactly what they wanted. And that's why it became big news.

I don't think it's a good idea to promote free speech by disrespecting and insulting a whole population of people. That's the same technique the "God Hates Fags" church uses. It's beneath us, I would think.
That doesn't make a lick of sense. The "God Hates Fags" people don't give a shit about freedom of speech, they just hate gay people. They intentionally offend (protesting at military funerals, etc) in order to gain publicity, to call attention to themselves and forward their agenda.

This movement, at least the intention behind it, is more of an "I am Spartacus" thing.
 
Clipjoint said:
Nah, I'm an athiest and I'm pro freedom of speech. But that doesn't mean I'm going to shit on a Bible to piss off a couple extremist Christians. Yeah the Muslim extremists are crazy, but ostracizing all of the moderate Muslims doesn't help the cause of getting rid of the extremism.
I agree that going out of your way to just to offend people with something that can reasonably considered to be offensive is wrong (although it still should be allowed). But just drawing a stick figure of of Muhammed is just not a reasonable cause for offense. And thus their whining and threats are really infringing on other people.

They want OTHER people to follow the tenets of THEIR religion. I think their religion is superstitious nonsense that is detrimental to the human species and I'm not going to be cowered into following its rules. The same applies to every other religion. And you are free to criticize atheism as well. (But it is not a religion!).
 
Mango Positive said:
People who harp on the glories of maturity are the most immature people I know. I'd also like to pretend that I'm above this silly debate, but the fact is the "freedom" side is right and the "frothing outrage" side is wrong.
"Faith is the acknowledgment that you have absolutely no justification for the silly shit you believe."

Wise beyond your years indeed.
 
speculawyer said:
But just drawing a stick figure of of Muhammed is just not a reasonable cause for offense.

It's pretty near impossible to say what will and wont offend people, so defining 'reasonable offence' is pointless. As this whole thing has shown, seemingly minor things can be offensive to certain people.

Quite a few posts in this thread have been of the "Oh gosh, how can anyone be offended by a picture of Muhammad", I'm sorry to say that other people think differently to you. and this really shouldn't come as a shock.
 
Jexhius said:
It's pretty near impossible to say what will and wont offend people, so defining 'reasonable offence' is pointless. As this whole thing has shown, seemingly minor things can be offensive to certain people.

Quite a few posts in this thread have been of the "Oh gosh, how can anyone be offended by a picture of Muhammad", I'm sorry to say that other people think differently to you. and this really shouldn't come as a shock.
So if I am amazingly offended by a white shirt then you are going to go out of your way to remove people wearing white shirts around me??

If they want to be part of this world, they must accept that society's morals are different around the world. We make out our morality with discussion, agreement and logic not with guns and death threats. Since they are not letting the discussion even begin, then ridicule of their behavior is the only way to show them that no you cant just demand death on people because their drawings offend you. And if moderate muslins want to pretend their religion is of peace and that this is wrong they are just rewarding the extremist for their action. "Continue to kill people and threaten them because we will come out of the woodworks to defend the religion and make excuses for what you have done".

Islam is not about peace, its about tribalism, fear and ignorance.
 
PistolGrip said:
So if I am amazingly offended by a white shirt then you are going to go out of your way to remove people wearing white shirts around me?/

I didn't say you had to react to their offence, I was just saying that people find different things offensive, which is apparently a tough concept for some people.
 
Jexhius said:
It's pretty near impossible to say what will and wont offend people, so defining 'reasonable offence' is pointless.

Quite a few posts in this thread have been of the "Oh gosh, how can anyone be offended by a picture of Muhammad", I'm sorry say that other people think differently to you. and this really shouldn't come as a shock.

The great thing about reason is that it transcends personal thought and opinion. So, no, it is quite easy to define reasonable offense, actually. You just have to think logically. Logic chooses no sides, has no favorites and will always be the same through out time. It's even easier to define reasonable offense to reasonable backlash. A 3 year old can decipher the lack of logic from drawing a picture of someone to the resulting deaththreats.

You can play stupid and ignoring reasoning, but it won't help your argument. You know how I know that? Reasoning and logic. It rang true 2000 years ago, it will ring true a million years from now.

Illogical cultures act illogically. Unreasonable cultures act unreasonably. Again, wow, what wisdom I have, right? No, I'm just spouting logic. 1+ 1 = 2. It's the simple stuff that children were born already knowing and yet were taught otherwise by their stupid cultures.
 
Mr. B Natural said:
The great thing about reason is that it transcends personal thought and opinion. So, no, it is quite easy to define reasonable offense, actually. You just have to think logically. Logic chooses no sides, has no favorites and will always be the same through out time. It's even easier to define reasonable offense to reasonable backlash. A 3 year old can decipher the lack of logic from drawing a picture of someone to the resulting deaththreats.

You can play stupid and ignoring reasoning, but it won't help your argument. You know how I know that? Reasoning and logic. It rang true 2000 years ago, it will ring true a million years from now.

Illogical cultures act illogically. Unreasonable cultures act unreasonably. Again, wow, what wisdom I have, right? No, I'm just spouting logic. 1+ 1 = 2. It's the simple stuff that children were born already knowing and yet were taught otherwise by their stupid cultures.

If only we were all as clever as you, no-one would disagree about anything.

Unfortunately for everyone else, arguments are not generally the same as maths and 'reasonable people' have disagreed about what is right and wrong, even when they all think 'logically'.
 
Jexhius said:
It's pretty near impossible to say what will and wont offend people, so defining 'reasonable offence' is pointless. As this whole thing has shown, seemingly minor things can be offensive to certain people.

Quite a few posts in this thread have been of the "Oh gosh, how can anyone be offended by a picture of Muhammad", I'm sorry to say that other people think differently to you. and this really shouldn't come as a shock.

This is not for some legal standard. Offending someone is and should remain legal.

My point is that *I* am not going to be cowered into not doing something that *I* feel is not a reasonable cause for offense. If we stop doing anything that ANYONE finds offensive, the world would suck.
 
Mr. B Natural said:
Illogical cultures act illogically. Unreasonable cultures act unreasonably. Again, wow, what wisdom I have, right? No, I'm just spouting logic. 1+ 1 = 2. It's the simple stuff that children were born already knowing and yet were taught otherwise by their stupid cultures.

How do you steady such a wide brush? The graining on your paint job is simply fabulous.
 
speculawyer said:
This is not for some legal standard. Offending someone is and should remain legal.

My point is that *I* am not going to be cowered into not doing something that *I* feel is not a reasonable cause for offense. If we stop doing anything that ANYONE finds offensive, the world would suck.

I don't disagree, I was just trying to point out that some people were saying "How can Muslims be offended by this?" and that such a statement makes little sense

I just used your post as a springboard.
 
Jexhius said:
It's pretty near impossible to say what will and wont offend people, so defining 'reasonable offence' is pointless. As this whole thing has shown, seemingly minor things can be offensive to certain people.

Quite a few posts in this thread have been of the "Oh gosh, how can anyone be offended by a picture of Muhammad", I'm sorry to say that other people think differently to you. and this really shouldn't come as a shock.


This post offends me. Delete it or face the consequences. This is not a threat but a warning.
 
Jexhius said:
If only we were all as clever as you, no-one would disagree about anything.

Unfortunately for everyone else, arguments are not generally the same as maths and 'reasonable people' have disagreed about what is right and wrong, even when they all think 'logically'.

Most reasoning and choices in life are chosen through values. If you value your appetite and the taste of food over how you look, then chances are you will be unfit and eat a lot. If you value your health over short term rewards, then chances are you're healthy and fit.

It's not about right and wrong. It's about being reasonable. The radical islamics' values are completely fucked up. Period. Their values are like a suicide bombers. I value my cause of killing over my life and the life of others around me. That is illogical, unreasonable and stupid. It doesn't take a phd in critical thinking to piece this together.

We're not discussing difficult moral and cultural issues here - like abortion or conservatives vs liberals. This is brain dead shit. You don't threaten someone's life and country over a drawing. PERIOD. Their values are unreasonable and destructive. PERIOD.
 
Mr. B Natural said:
Most reasoning and choices in life are chosen through values. If you value your appetite and the taste of food over how you look, then chances are you will be unfit and eat a lot. If you value your health over short term rewards, then chances are you're healthy and fit.

It's not about right and wrong. It's about being reasonable. The radical islamics' values are completely fucked up. Period. Their values are like a suicide bombers. I value my cause of killing over my life and the life of others around me. That is illogical, unreasonable and stupid. It doesn't take a phd in critical thinking to piece this together.

We're not discussing difficult moral and cultural issues here - like abortion or conservatives vs liberals. This is brain dead shit. You don't threaten someone's life and country over a drawing. PERIOD. Their values are unreasonable and destructive. PERIOD.

I was trying to find that post where I said it was alright for Muslim extremists to threaten peoples lives, but then I realised I never wrote it.

I guess you should try reading what I actually write in my posts.
 
perfectchaos007 said:
me too. that cartoon has a ciggarette in his mouth. Ciggarettes kill, and it's offensive. Please take it down Jexhius it's offensive to us.
it's offensive to me too

remove it, or else!
 
Jexhius said:
I don't disagree, I was just trying to point out that some people were saying "How can Muslims be offended by this?" and that such a statement makes little sense

I think it makes a lot of sense because whats happening is stupid, the action here (drawing some important figure) has no correlation with the level of the backslash (death threats).

If this was some obscure tribe maybe it would make sense, for instance in some isolated tribes smiling could get you in trouble because showing teeth is a sign of agression for some of them. We humans can have a lot of different cultures with the most weird taboos and social behaviours, but islamic countries and islamic followers are not some obscure tribe, and besides they live and want the advantages of the modern and civilized world, I find nothing shocking or non-sensical about common people being appalled by the way islam as a culture is reacting, both the extremist violent side and the moderate-but-silent side.
 
So is there going to be a new thread tomorrow to catalogue the drawings? I haven't done anything yet but am planning on throwing something together.

And there should definitely be an 'eyes closed' thread :lol
 
mantidor said:
I think it makes a lot of sense because whats happening is stupid, the action here (drawing some important figure) has no correlation with the level of the backslash (death threats).

Once again, I didn't say that death threats were a reasonable or expected response.

I just said that I wasn't surprised that certain people took offence from others drawing such images.
 
Jexhius said:
Once again, I didn't say that death threats were a reasonable or expected response.

I just said that I wasn't surprised that certain people took offence from others drawing such images.

No, what you actually said, and what was ridiculous, is that you can't draw a distinction between those things that are reasonable to be offended by and those that are not.
 
Dude Abides said:
No, what you actually said, and what was ridiculous, is that you can't draw a distinction between those things that are reasonable to be offended by and those that are not.

I think that such a list will be absurdly long, some of it will be reasonable and some of it will be based on cultural standards which are different in different places.

While there are some things so extreme they will offend nearly everyone there are plenty of things which are only offensive to certain groups.

So drawing up such a list would be a difficult process. It's not a simple issue.
 
Fuck those Pakistani protesters. Total irony. Publicly protesting against free speech? Seriously? Do they even think about what they do before they do it?

No wonder they're 3rd world.
 
perfectchaos007 said:
Well the "draw muhammad day" facebook page now has less members than the facebook page called "against draw muhammad day"

freedom loses again
Disagree. Some people draw Muhammad; some people complain about it. Where's the lack of freedom?
 
RiskyChris said:
Is this shit necessary?

Yes. Yes it is. It's this level of extremism, hatred, and anger over nothing that leaves them with the intellect that makes them 3rd world.

It's just pure stupidity. And it's this stupidity that leaves them unable to make wise decisions to better their country.
 
SlipperySlope said:
Fuck those Pakistani protesters. Total irony. Publicly protesting against free speech? Seriously? Do they even think about what they do before they do it?

No wonder they're 3rd world.
Where they publicly protesting, where?
 
RiskyChris said:
Wow so they're all intellectually dwarfed 3rd world monsters. Got it.

The ones protesting, and the government for giving in, yes. The country will never progress with either of these types of people controlling things.
 
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