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May Wrasslin' |OT| Dontaku about Legit Shook

XenoRaven

Member
Thanks Sun and Bootaaay, and to anyone else who read through my mad, incoherent ramblings.

We will now continue with part two of Super WrassleGAF Wrestling Write-up Number One Featuring XenoRaven". The first part can be found here.

There is about a half hour intermission at this point. There are promos for upcoming shows and then interviews with seemingly random people. They are probably not random, but I don't understand Japanese. I skipped all of that. If you watch these live, this is probably a good time to get a snack, or perhaps breakfast considering it's probably about 5 am on the east coast of America.

6th Match
Special Singles Match
Hirooki Goto
vs.
Katsuyori Shibata

There is a distinct difference in the feel of the show after the intermission. There's a lot of fun and craziness in the first part. Post-intermission is where shit starts to get serious. There's not a match on the card that could have drove that point home better than Goto vs. Shibata. My god.

Shibata kind of reminds me of Piston Honda. Is that racist? I hope not. Anyway, it's apparent right from the beginning that these two are competitive as hell. I have no idea why these two are wrestling, but there's a tension here that tells me before they even lock up that these two guys are equals in the ring and they both have something to prove to each other.

Cool little amateur wrestling exhibition to start off. Shibata appears to be something of a submission specialist. One of my favorite spots in the match is when Goto is sitting on the mat. Shibata kicks him hard in the back, Goto falls to protect his back, so Shibata stomps on his stomach. Then he immediately locks in a Figure Four. They start trading slaps while Goto is in the Figure Four. These guys are going at each other.

Good back and forth from both guys. Did Shibata just steal Okada's signature submission? Oh well. They start trading elbow smashes to the head. They continue trading elbow smashes to the head. Dear god I have never seen so many elbow smashes in a match. They eventually beat the hell out of each other so badly that they both go down and neither of them can continue. Ref counts to 10, match ends in a draw.

If this happened on a WWE PPV I feel like the crowd would boo and the IWC would be talking about how much of a cop out ending it was. I don't know the story behind these two and why they went at each other so hard, but I felt from the beginning that the match was going to end in a draw. When it did, it just worked. I don't know. I loved the match. No wacky spots. Nothing that will make a highlight reel. Just two guys with something to prove coming together as equals. Great stuff.

I should point out that the match proper was only about 15 minutes. They did a hell of a lot with that time. I thought it was at least 20-25.

7th Match
Special Singles Match
Hiroshi Tanahashi
vs.
Karl "Gotta Get My Nickname Over" Anderson

"Machine Gun" Karl Anderson. This is what I was talking about before with Alex Koslov. "Machine Gun" Karl Anderson's theme music starts with a machine gun. His intro video is him doing machine gun taunts over and over. Sometimes bullet holes appear on the screen. When he comes out, he does a machine gun taunt and a machine gun noise plays again. When they announce his name, the machine gun sound plays again. I feel like there are roughly 20 machine gun themed visual and audio cues before the match even starts. I had never heard of this guy before in my life, and with one intro "Machine Gun" is forever burned into my cerebral cortex.

Is Tanahashi the biggest face in the company? I think so. His taunt is an air guitar. I guess he is a rock star or something. I'd be interested to know if he actually plays. I'd also be interested to know what percentage of Japanese wrestlers have cauliflower ear. Initial estimates are somewhere around 100%.

This was a good match, although I don't remember much from it and don't feel like going back to watch it on Daily Motion. Which you can totally do right now by the way. All the matches appear to be up there already. Jahmale Hepburn works fast. Anyway, toward the end of the match Karl is adamant about hitting his finisher OUTTA NOWHERE. His finisher is the "Gun Stun" by the way, which is basically a stunner without the gut kick. He keeps going for it. He probably tries it 8 times in a row and Tanahashi reverses it every time. I kind of like that though. Everyone in NJPW has a very distinct wrestling style. Karl's a big guy, and he has this sort of all or nothing style. It feels like he thinks if he can just hit this one move it will be over. That's a theme I'm noticing in NJPW. Instead of people hitting their finishers like 5 times to put someone away, a finisher is a finisher. The guy that's about to be on the receiving end will do everything in his power to avoid being hit by it. At one point Karl actually locks it in and is able to drop, but Tanahashi uses his strength to stop Karl's momentum going down and nullify the impact. Pretty cool. Tanahashi wins with the High Fly Flow (Frog Splash).

Devitt comes out on his horse and attacks Tanahashi. Karl appears to not be cool with this, but also appears to not want to get involved. So he just stays on the sidelines saying "What did you do that for?" over and over. Then he gets involved...by attacking Tanahashi. An unholy alliance of gun taunts is formed. What havoc will these two imaginary gun wielding maniacs unleash on NJPW?

8th Match
IWGP Intercontinental Title Match
Shinsuke Nakamura (c)
vs.
Shelton Benjamin

So I guess NJPW's Intercontinental Title is actually worth a damn, because it's part of a "double main event". I dare say that the IC Champ is possibly considered the number 2 guy in the company. I don't know exactly. But at least the belt has some damn prestige in this promotion.

When the card was initially announced, someone in this thread said that they felt that in terms of the story Shelton either hadn't earned the match or didn't seem like he was good enough to beat Nakamura. Maybe that's true, but his in-ring abilities and his presence dispelled that idea in a hurry. Shelton looked great. Better than Nakamura in my opinion. Frankly I need to see more Nakamura matches because the ones I have seen involve him getting his ass beat until he can hit a Boma-Ye. One thing about Nakamura though, the dude can sell. I actually feel bad for the guy sometimes. He seems like he's in so much pain.

Really good match. I love Shelton's little quips at the crowd. At the start of the match the crowd chants for Shinsuke. Shelton turns to the crowd, shakes his head and says "Forget it. I'm gonna destroy Shinsuke." Made me laugh. Looks like Shelton's adopted the ankle lock and is able to apply it early. Nakamura sells it like his foot was getting eating by a shark. Shelton is still athletic as hell. WWE missed the boat on this guy. At one point, Nakamura is on the top rope. Shelton runs at him. I see flashbacks of Kurt Angle top rope belly-to-belly suplexes. Nope. Instead, Shelton just leaps up onto the top rope in one jump and does a superplex. Frankly I feel like the match should have been over here. Nakamura gets some momentum back after this and botches a top rope dive. Probably would have been ok if he did it from the turnbuckle, but he decided to stand on the ropes about 2 feet from the turnbuckle. Really I felt the whole ending was sloppy. Nakamura tries another move on Shelton and it just doesn't seem to work. I don't know if Shelton reversed it or what. Shelton sold it like he got hit with something though. Boma-Ye. Nakamura wins.

Final Match
IWGP Heavyweight Title Match
Kazuchika Okada (c)
vs.
Minoru Suzuki

I don't know what it is about Minoru Suzuki. I don't understand a word he's saying, I don't know anything about him, but I like him. Of all the wrestlers in NJPW, I think he's the last one I'd ever want to mess with. He looks tough as hell and he has this sort of cool arrogance about him. He knows he can beat your ass, but he's not a showboater. He backs it up with action. I like it. Plus, he sounds like an anime villain so that's a plus.

I kind of wonder how aware NJPW is of their foreign audience. So many of their guys do such a great job of conveying their characters through their actions and their body language. It makes it very easy and enjoyable for someone that doesn't know the language to watch. Maybe that ability is just natural to great wrestlers. Either way, I'm impressed by it.

Now is a good time to say that in NJPW there are a bunch of stage hands (ring hands?) outside the ring. They do a lot of stuff. They clear crap out of the ring, they clean up messes on the outside, they check on wrestlers after their matches and put ice packs on them, etc. One of their responsibilities is to sit on the ring ropes to allow more space for the wrestlers to get through during their entrance. Basically what a valet would normally do. Well, Suzuki comes out and is kind of eying the guy holding the ropes open for him. At that moment I began praying to the wrestling gods that Suzuki was going to do what I thought he was going to do. Prayers answered! Suzuki pretends he's about to step through the ropes and then just kicks the poor hapless stage hand in the head. Amazing. He might be my favorite.

As an aside, I have seen more of Taka Michinoku in this show than I had in my whole life before it.

Okada time. I didn't really get why he was called the Rainmaker until I watched the Tanahashi/Okada match from Invasion Attack. I always figured he was rich because he's always holding money. But I didn't realize that he actually made it rain on the audience. That's right, money falls from the ceiling when he comes out. I feel this is a dangerous thing to do. If you're trying to get someone over as a super rich guy by making money fall from the ceiling, it damn well better be real money. On top of that, I'm not going to be impressed if you just drop $1 bills everywhere. I'm thinking at least $10 bills. But then you run into the question of how much money you want to spend on this guy's entrance. On the bright side, a bunch of money falls on the ramp where the crowd can't go so at least you can recoup some of your losses there. There's a joke here about how much money gets set on fire during an Undertaker WrestleMania entrance, but I can't put the pieces together so you'll have to come up with it on your own.

Another thing to note is that while Rainmaker is Okada's nickname, it is also the name of his finisher. Maybe I'm reading into it a little too much, but I feel like in the context of a finishing move "Rainmaker" is a play on the term "haymaker". If I am indeed correct in this assumption, a Japanese person has a more creatively named finisher than the entire WWE locker room.

I feel a little bit bad that I talked more about the entrances than I will about the match. It seems I don't really remember particular spots in a match, but more how the match flowed and how it felt to watch. That said, I'll do my best. Suzuki works over Okada's right arm (his Rainmaker arm) for most of the first part of the match. This also happened during the Tanahashi/Okada match. Does it happen in every Okada match? It makes sense though. He needs it to do his finisher and Suzuki establishes himself very early on as a bit of a submission specialist.

Actually, I think Suzuki's style comes from the fact that he appears to be an accomplished MMA fighter. 30-20 record. I have no idea how many of those fights are against decent fighters. What I do know is that if 50 trained fighters try to kick the crap out of you and you beat up 30 of them, that's pretty damn good as far as I'm concerned.

Another thing about Suzuki's style. He knows he looks like a tough bastard, and so he wrestles like a tough bastard. Part of his strategy seems to be to goad Okada into trading strikes with him, because he can take more hits than Okada. Again, I like it. I don't think Suzuki has quite the in-ring skill that Okada does, but he definitely knows where his strengths lie.

Suzuki seems to beat the hell out of Okada for most of the match. There is a lot of angry screaming as Okada tries to psyche himself up enough to trade strikes with Suzuki. I wish there was more angry screaming in WWE. Suzuki's finisher is a cradle or "Gotch style" piledriver. He sets it up by putting his opponent in a sleeper hold to tire them out before he hits it. I bring that up now because there are a lot of sleeper holds in this match. A LOT. And it goes on for awhile. I'm not bored though. I don't know what they do to make it not seem like a lame ass rest hold, but it works on me. I wish the commentators would shut up though. Seriously. I'm trying to concentrate on the match and they're talking loud and fast about how the weather is outside or something. It's not like there's fast and furious excitement in the ring right now. I have no idea what they're saying, but it sure as hell reminds me of when Cole and King talk about some random bullshit while I'm trying to watch the match.

Suzuki goes for several Gotch Style piledrivers. Okada is determined to not get hit by one, presumably because he knows it's over if he does. Again, I like that about NJPW. Eventually, Okada gets some momentum back and hits a Tombstone (one of his signature moves). Suzuki is able to escape the Rainmaker. Eventually Okada gets Suzuki up for ANOTHER Tombstone. He cradles this one to make it "Gotch Style" as final insult to Suzuki. RAAAAIIINMAAAAAKAAAAAAAH!! 1-2-3. Okada retains.

I posted in here about how cool I thought it was when Okada won a certificate, 3 trophies, and the belt when he won his match against Tanahashi. Well apparently you win all that stuff if you defend your title too. There's still a ceremony with pictures and all that. I love Okada's insistence that anyone that takes a picture with him must do the Rainmaker pose.

Tougi Makabe comes out during Okada's friend's promo (who, by the way, appears to have recovered from his embarrassing loss to Mutant Red Power Ranger). Some words I don't understand are exchanged. I'm not sure how this process works. Is there some sort of ranking system in NJPW based on wins and losses that allow someone to face the champ? Or if you want a shot at the belt to you just come out during their championship celebration and cut a promo? Anyway, it appears the match for the next PPV is set. Okada vs. Makabe.

Overall, I really enjoyed the event and plan to order Wrestle Kingdom. I think the Best of Super Juniors tournament will be good. Tanahashi vs. Okada from Invasion Attack set my expectations REALLY high. Unrealistically high. That's why I don't feel comfortable giving this show a number grade. I will say that the further removed I get from the show, the more I think about it. It was really good. I think Goto vs. Shibata was my favorite match of the night. It's a tough call because Suzuki really won me over, but I think I enjoyed his character more than the actual match.

All in all, I think the best thing I can say is that I am on board with NJPW now. I think it will serve as a good source to get my wrestling fix. I appreciate all of you guys who put all the effort into bringing these great promotions to us. I would never have tried NJPW if it weren't for your tireless badgering.

I may do more of these in the future if at least a few people read through and enjoy them.
 
Bret said his match with Nash at Summerslam is one of his favorite matches. I highly doubt Bret said that solely because of himself.

Kane made Edge a mid-carder. Edge fucking Lita and getting all that controversy made him a multi-time WHC and HoFer. If Kane hadn't come along, Foley would have done the same thing.

will never forget the flaming table spear spot.
 

strobogo

Banned
Kane definitely didn't make Edge as a singles guy. Angle and Jericho did. What a weird suggestion that Kane was responsible for Edge in any way.
 

Razorskin

----- ------
No it's just another silly thing WWE.com does by making lists.

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That also had Miz vs. Morrison over Bret vs. Michaels.

The night Rey Mysterio was champ for an hour.
 
Watching the latest Wrestling is Fun show, awesome pele kick from Amasis;

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Mr. Touchdown is so ridiculously good, he's quickly becoming one of my favourite CHIKARA wrestlers;

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Saturyne & Princess Kimber Lee continued their rivalry - I'm really enjoying this series and it's cool to see the improvement both have show over the three matches so far. Kimber has a real mean streak and her offence looks great and while Saturyne could probably do with working on her striking, she gains good sympathy from the crowds with her selling.

Big wheelbarrow German suplex from Kimber;

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I don't know the story behind these two and why they went at each other so hard, but I felt from the beginning that the match was going to end in a draw. When it did, it just worked. I don't know. I loved the match. No wacky spots. Nothing that will make a highlight reel. Just two guys with something to prove coming together as equals. Great stuff.

Glad you liked Goto vs Shibata, that was my favourite match of the show as well - the story to it was basically that Shibata had returned to New Japan after a career in MMA, but didn't like the style of wrestling he found. He wanted to bring the fighting spirit out in Goto, his old friend and fellow New Japan dojo graduate, so he challenged him to this match to see if Goto still had the same fire he did as a youth.

I personally thought the double knockout ending was perfect and you're right, it was pretty telegraphed, but didn't detract from the match in any way and serves to set up a future rematch, which I'll definitely be excited for when it happens.

And yeah, Shibata kinda stole Okada's Red Ink submission, lol - except he eliminated the weird setup Okada goes for and didn't struggle to put on the chin lock, so I actually preferred Shibata's version.

XenoRaven said:
Is Tanahashi the biggest face in the company? I think so. His taunt is an air guitar. I guess he is a rock star or something.

Yeah, Tanahashi's pretty much the ace of New Japan and the biggest wrestling star in Japan today. It's easy to see why. He can wrestle, he's charismatic and his offence looks so very crisp.

XenoRaven said:
I dare say that the IC Champ is possibly considered the number 2 guy in the company. I don't know exactly. But at least the belt has some damn prestige in this promotion.

The IC title is a relatively new belt, but since Nakamura's been champion they've definitely elevated the status of it - Nakamura's goal has been to try and make the title the no.1 belt in New Japan.

XenoRaven said:
Suzuki works over Okada's right arm (his Rainmaker arm) for most of the first part of the match. This also happened during the Tanahashi/Okada match. Does it happen in every Okada match? It makes sense though. He needs it to do his finisher and Suzuki establishes himself very early on as a bit of a submission specialist.

The Tanahashi/Okada match from wrestle kingdom was the first time someone overtly worked over Okada's arm to hinder the Rainmaker, but as Suzuki is pretty much considered the submission wrestling/shoot style specialist of New Japan (maybe Nagata, their sort-of-feud is very long standing) so it's no surprise he'd follow a similar tactic. At first I was kinda disappointed that Okada was able to shrug off the damage done early on to his arm, but thinking about it, it kinda made sense as Suzuki abandoned working the arm in favour of the sleeper hold.

XenoRaven said:
Suzuki's finisher is a cradle or "Gotch style" piledriver. He sets it up by putting his opponent in a sleeper hold to tire them out before he hits it. I bring that up now because there are a lot of sleeper holds in this match. A LOT. And it goes on for awhile. I'm not bored though. I don't know what they do to make it not seem like a lame ass rest hold, but it works on me.

So many guys these days slap on a hold and there's just no tension to it, which really makes me sad, especially in WWE - but a guy like Suzuki knows all the little nuances and mannerisms to make a hold look that much more believable, while Okada sold it here just perfectly.

XenoRaven said:
I'm not sure how this process works. Is there some sort of ranking system in NJPW based on wins and losses that allow someone to face the champ? Or if you want a shot at the belt to you just come out during their championship celebration and cut a promo? Anyway, it appears the match for the next PPV is set. Okada vs. Makabe.

Nothing as complex as a ranking system - unless someone has a pending title shot won from a tournament, the next challenger is usually whoever comes out to challenge the champion at the end of the show. Sometimes it'll be someone who won a big match on the show, like Togi, or someone who holds a prior win over the champion, like Suzuki, who defeated Okada back in February.
 
You're going to have to refresh my memory Stro as to when Jericho did anything to help Edge, the only time I remember them feuding involved ending sentences with SPEAR, SPEAR, SPEAR, followed by a lacklustre WM match SPEAR SPEAR SPEAR.
And that was well after Edge was established...
SPEAR SPEAR SPEAR
 

strobogo

Banned
2002. After the feud with Angle that ended with Kurt getting his head shaved, he went into a similar feud with Jericho. Then the Smackdown 6 stuff started up. Well, well before any Kane feud, Edge was established as a star. I remember the Kane feud actually dragging him down and stalling out his momentum if anything.
 

Striker

Member
Schiavone enthusiasm was amazing. dearly miss him. still my favourite commentator.
I've been watching WCW PPV's some today, and while Heenan is a face, he isn't nearly as annoying as a face Lawler is. Heenan is so far and away better at Lawler in both aspects.

Toward both the end of Giant and Jericho's tenure in the company. Both losing to DDP and Konnan.
 
The night Rey Mysterio was champ for an hour.

But Cena deserved that rematch on the same night! Because JOHN CENA.

Seriously, instead of slow-burning Punk's return and having Mysterio/Cena be the Summerslam main event, they shoe horned it all into a two week span. Still further proof WWE doesn't even know how to handle good things they get them gift wrapped.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
Xenoraven, loved reading your writeup. I really do. :)
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
2002. After the feud with Angle that ended with Kurt getting his head shaved, he went into a similar feud with Jericho. Then the Smackdown 6 stuff started up. Well, well before any Kane feud, Edge was established as a star. I remember the Kane feud actually dragging him down and stalling out his momentum if anything.
I don't want to get into all of this, but you would be right, if it weren't for one thing, Edge getting injured. Edge was gone for a long time, and it killed the MASSIVE momentum he had as a face at the time. Then, Edge was drafted to RAW, and his face run there was terrible (funny enough, his first face feud on RAW was against Kane at Backlash 2004, which was a terrible feud).

Then, they tried him as a heel, and it worked. Now, while people may be give Lita the credit for "making" Edge, it was Kane whom he was feuding against. While personally I wouldn't say that Kane made Edge as a singles star, as I think it's always the guy who makes himself into a star, not anybody else, but it was that Kane feud that did more to help Edge than anything else, simply because they had like four absolutely brutal matches, the Lita angle made it feel real, and Edge won it. He hadn't really won any feud as a single heel up to that point. He also won it in a brutal fashion. To say that it dragged Edge down is just silly. I know you don't like Kane (maybe because you don't like my obnoxious way of pushing Kane), but to take that away from is unfair. Even Edge himself has called Kane his biggest rival (they had like 4-5 separate feuds throughout the years) in a radio interview not that long ago.

What dragged Edge down was the Matt Hardy feud right after the Kane feud. The problem with that feud is that Matt Hardy won it, but yet it did nothing for Matt Hardy. The fact that Hardy won that feud, then went back to being a jobber hurt Edge, but he was saved by the MITB. Funny enough, people seem to have forgotten that Hardy/Edge feud (outside of the real life aspect). The issue with that feud was that Matt Hardy is such cardboard wall when it comes to acting talent that he couldn't legitimately sell something that actually happened to him.

Like I said, I won't say that Kane made Edge into a singles star, as it was Edge who did it for himself, but that Kane/Edge feud allowed Edge to display his great heel acting ability. He was allowed to be brutal in the ring, and a dick outside of it. I mean, flushing Kane's wedding ring down the toilet, while Kane looked on with tears in his eyes? It bridged the gap between the prototypical cocky heel that Edge was at that point, into just an asshole. Add to that the real life Lita angle (which like I said, the wrestling Hardy/Edge feud only hurt), and you've got the Rated R Superstar. After that feud, Edge became the perfect heel to "dastardly" beat Cena with the MITB.
 

strobogo

Banned
That timeline seems weird. I think the 2004 feud is what I'm thinking of that stalled out Edge's momentum. I remember him coming back from the neck injury, then getting injured again, then coming back with a terrible feud with Kane where he just couldn't seem to gain any traction.

But Edge had already won the MITB by the time the Matt Hardy thing happened. And even before that, he was in the title picture and feuding with HBK. Kane just happened to be the guy he was feuding with when the Matt Hardy thing blew up. I don't remember that feud hurting Edge at all. Not only that, he totally won that feud. Matt won the cage match, but Edge won the blow off loser leaves Raw match, kept Lita, and cashed in at the start of the next year.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
That timeline seems weird. I think the 2004 feud is what I'm thinking of that stalled out Edge's momentum. I remember him coming back from the neck injury, then getting injured again, then coming back with a terrible feud with Kane where he just couldn't seem to gain any traction.

But Edge had already won the MITB by the time the Matt Hardy thing happened. And even before that, he was in the title picture and feuding with HBK. Kane just happened to be the guy he was feuding with when the Matt Hardy thing blew up. I don't remember that feud hurting Edge at all. Not only that, he totally won that feud. Matt won the cage match, but Edge won the blow off loser leaves Raw match, kept Lita, and cashed in at the start of the next year.
The Matt Hardy thing blew up when Lita was still with Kane. The feud with Edge hadn't started yet (and wouldn't for awhile). Kane was feuding with Snitsky when the Lita details blew up on the internet. It was that that eventually caused them to pair Lita up with Edge and have them feud with Kane (instead of Hardy, who was let go at that point).

Either way, the actual Matt Hardy/Edge wrestling feud was terrible and forgettable. Matt was so bad that he couldn't even sell something that had actually happened. It's telling that after all these years, people are still discussing the Kane/Edge feud from 2005, but not the actual in ring Matt/Edge feud.

BTW, you do have your timeline mixed up. The Kane/Edge feud you're thinking about was from Backlash 2004. It was after Edge returned from his neck surgery, then injured his hand and wrist, and had a feud with Kane as a face (Kane was the heel). It was terrible for both competitors and a total time filler, as they had nothing for either guy to really do. Like I said, these guys have had many separate feuds with each other.

EDIT: BTW, while he did feud with HBK before Kane. It was very short, honestly, and he was still just a typical heel then. He didn't become the absolute asshole of a heel that we normally think of when we think heel Edge until the Kane feud.
 

strobogo

Banned
Man, the Edge/Matt cage match is among the best cages matches WWE ever did. The loser leaves Raw match was weird from what I remember. Like a strange delayed finish or something. But that cage match was great and was worked like two guys who hated each other and were fighting opposed to most WWE cage matches that are guys having a normal match while tossing someone into the cage once in a while. It was stiff and brutal and exactly what it needed to be.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
Man, the Edge/Matt cage match is among the best cages matches WWE ever did. The loser leaves Raw match was weird from what I remember. Like a strange delayed finish or something. But that cage match was great and was worked like two guys who hated each other and were fighting opposed to most WWE cage matches that are guys having a normal match while tossing someone into the cage once in a while. It was stiff and brutal and exactly what it needed to be.
Maybe true, but it just built off the brutality that was displayed in the Kane feud. The cage match he had with Kane was one of the few times I've seen Kane totally bloody, not to mention the stretcher match. Like I said, though, I don't think Kane made Edge into a singles star. It was just that the Kane/Edge feud was the first time Edge was allowed to really display his heelish talent as a singles competitor. Unfortunately for Hardy, his feud with Edge just felt like more of the same after the Kane feud, especially since it was built on the exact same premise. Plus, it seemed wasted since Hardy essentially just went back to being a jobber, afterwards.

It wasn't Kane who made Edge into a singles star, it was the feud that gave Edge the opportunity to become a singles star.
 

strobogo

Banned
I guess. I don't remember any of those matches with Kane. I just remember Kane somehow being turned into the face after kidnapping and raping Lita, Matt Hardy being super over and killing the feud the first time he tried to cut a promo, having the great cage match, then going right back to where he was before he got fired. The whole thing was just a big elevation for Edge. Only in pro wrestling can a guy who can control fire kidnap, rape, and force a marriage on his victim become the face and the rape victim become the heel because she cheated on a dude.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
I guess. I don't remember any of those matches with Kane. I just remember Kane somehow being turned into the face after kidnapping and raping Lita, Matt Hardy being super over and killing the feud the first time he tried to cut a promo, having the great cage match, then going right back to where he was before he got fired. The whole thing was just a big elevation for Edge. Only in pro wrestling can a guy who can control fire kidnap, rape, and force a marriage on his victim become the face and the rape victim become the heel because she cheated on a dude.
Firstly, you get the feud mixed up with a completely different one, and now you say that you don't remember any of the matches from it, yet you're sitting here trying to have a debate with me about it? All those endless WCW reruns must have fucked up your memory.

You "guess", indeed. I expected better from you, Strobogo.
 

strobogo

Banned
I didn't get them mixed up. I said the 2004 feud was the one I was thinking of that stalled Edge's momentum. As in, the one with him as the face and Kane as the heel. I don't remember the matches of the 2005 feud. I don't remember the second Kane feud being a big cementing thing for him, because the Matt Hardy feud and Lita is what is remembered by most people that aren't Kane fanatics. I remember the feud, but not the matches. I remember both the feud and matches with Hardy.


All the WCW stuff made makes me feel like a dry drunk, I won't argue that.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
This reminds me of the time G-Fex criticized the inferno match between Taker and Kane, and called it overrated, asking why everyone praised it when he thought it sucked. Then, it turned out that he was talking about the inferno match between them that occurred on a random RAW in 1999. He thought that was the first ever inferno match. He had no idea that the actual first inferno match occurred at Unforgiven 1998, and that's the one everyone praises, lol.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
I didn't get them mixed up. I said the 2004 feud was the one I was thinking of that stalled Edge's momentum. As in, the one with him as the face and Kane as the heel. I don't remember the matches of the 2005 feud. I don't remember the second Kane feud being a big cementing thing for him, because the Matt Hardy feud and Lita is what is remembered by most people that aren't Kane fanatics. I remember the feud, but not the matches. I remember both the feud and matches with Hardy.


All the WCW stuff made makes me feel like a dry drunk, I won't argue that.
Please, you just essentially admitted a few posts above that you got the 2005 and 2004 feuds mixed up. Unless, you want us to actually believe that you thought Pristine_Condition was talking about the 2004 Kane/Edge feud when he said, "Kane/Edge feud made Edge into a star."

Come on, just admit that you forgot about the 2005 Kane/Edge feud, and thought he meant the 2004 one. No shame in that.
 

strobogo

Banned
On a scale of Edge vs Kane 2004 and Edge vs Kane 2010, where does Edge vs Kane 2005 rank in the annals of wrestling history? I didn't get them confused as to which one sucked and stalled out Edge's momentum. I think Edge was pretty well established even before their 2004 feud is what I was originally trying to say. Angle had already made Edge a star 2 years prior.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
On a scale of Edge vs Kane 2004 and Edge vs Kane 2010, where does Edge vs Kane 2005 rank in the annals of wrestling history? I didn't get them confused as to which one sucked and stalled out Edge's momentum. I think Edge was pretty well established even before their 2004 feud is what I was originally trying to say. Angle had already made Edge a star 2 years prior.
I would agree with you, but that's why I said his neck injury and being moved to RAW totally killed Edge's face momentum. That angle feud made Edge into a huge face on SD!, but that came to a grinding halt. Edge was a failure as a face on RAW. It was the Kane/Edge 2005 feud that allowed Edge to become a great heel.
 

strobogo

Banned
I would agree with you, but that's why I said his neck injury and being moved to RAW totally killed Edge's face momentum. That angle feud made Edge into a huge face on SD!, but that came to a grinding halt. Edge was a failure as a face on RAW. It was the Kane/Edge 2005 feud that allowed Edge to become a great heel.

And what I'm saying is that he was already in the title scene and had won MITB before the 2005 feud with Kane. I feel like he had gained that momentum back before he got involved with Kane, and the Matt Hardy thing is what actually pushed him over the edge (lol) to being the super cunt he was known for.

He wanted to say it to Rey's face.

This made me lol.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
And what I'm saying is that he was already in the title scene and had won MITB before the 2005 feud with Kane. I feel like he had gained that momentum back before he got involved with Kane, and the Matt Hardy thing is what actually pushed him over the edge (lol) to being the super cunt he was known for.
It gave him back his momentum, but like I've said already, he did it as a pretty typical heel. It was the Kane feud that allowed him to display his dickish attitude, way before the Hardy feud started on screen. You probably don't remember any moments from the Kane/Edge 2005 feud, so I don't really see how you can argue with me on this point.

I know you don't like giving Kane any credit, so I won't make you. Like I said, I don't think Kane made Edge into a star. Edge just needed a medium to express his true talent as a heel. The Kane/Edge feud allowed that to happen. The Hardy feud came later, and it was essentially just a repeat of the Kane feud. It probably could have been better than the Kane feud, if it had come first, but by this point, the audience didn't really want to see another Lits cheats on _______ with Edge feud. Thus, it ended quickly, and Edge moved onto the WWE title, while Hardy did nothing.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
Settle down Soulplaya! Not worth getting upset over!

GPcOdsD.jpg


I'm just messin. I wouldn't slap the champ.
 

strobogo

Banned
We aren't even arguing and it isn't a Kane thing at all. I gave Kane credit in this very thread on this very day (in this very ring) for being better than Nash when the two were brought up, and I've talked a lot recently how enjoyable he has been in the last month and a half.

I give Kane a lot of credit in making Batista look like he had a ton of potential to be more than another muscle freak. I think he was pretty important in establishing HHH after his heel turn in 1999, too.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
We aren't even arguing and it isn't a Kane thing at all. I gave Kane credit in this very thread on this very day (in this very ring) for being better than Nash when the two were brought up, and I've talked a lot recently how enjoyable he has been in the last month and a half.

I give Kane a lot of credit in making Batista look like he had a ton of potential to be more than another muscle freak. I think he was pretty important in establishing HHH after his heel turn in 1999, too.

Batista was super lucky the people he kicked it with put him over as much as they did when it mattered. They really did treat him right.

Also I remember that Inferno match argument Soul, shit was funny.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
Batista was super lucky the people he kicked it with put him over as much as they did when it mattered. They really did treat him right.

Also I remember that Inferno match argument Soul, shit was funny.
Hey, I'm not upset. Really, I'm not.


I'm not.


Seriously.


Not upset.


I hope.
 

strobogo

Banned
I still think the MVP/Kane inferno match was so weird and random. I did enjoy that feud mixing in with the Taker/Kennedy feud while still being their own things. MVP just seemed like a bizarre character to bring that match back for.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
We aren't even arguing and it isn't a Kane thing at all. I gave Kane credit in this very thread on this very day (in this very ring) for being better than Nash when the two were brought up, and I've talked a lot recently how enjoyable he has been in the last month and a half.

I give Kane a lot of credit in making Batista look like he had a ton of potential to be more than another muscle freak. I think he was pretty important in establishing HHH after his heel turn in 1999, too.
Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot about the tremendous praise you gave him with the "hey, he's better than Nash" argument. Truly, I apologize (I'm being sarcastic, by the way).

You could have just said, "I'm sorry, Soul. You're right, again. My stupid ass should have never fucked up and doubted you. The next time I speak, I'll make sure to have my Kane knowledge down pact. That is, if you ever give me permission to speak again. Damn my stupid ass."

I'm joking, by the way.


Maybe.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
I still think the MVP/Kane inferno match was so weird and random. I did enjoy that feud mixing in with the Taker/Kennedy feud while still being their own things. MVP just seemed like a bizarre character to bring that match back for.
MVP wore an outfit that allowed him to be set on fire. That's it. If they ever bring the match back, the one losing will be the one wearing the most clothes.
 
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