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May Wrasslin' |OT2| Where the Big Boys Play

  • Thread starter Deleted member 47027
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Why do 90% of Euro wrestlers have no gimmick, or their gimmick is OI IM A TOUGH GUY? It's like every single one of them said, 'I'm gonna be Dynamite Kid' then all their mates said, 'I'm gonna be Dynamite Kid!' and here we are. Chris Adams was a pretty good wrestler, but I didn't find him unique or standing out other than in the ring. Which leaves a short impression. Did nobody in Europe get Superstar Billy Graham tapes in the 80s so they didn't know? I mean, what was Bulldog's gimmick? Whenever I see those guys Boots posts for PROGRESS, they just look like dudes. It's fine if there's a couple hard ass dudes in the promotion, but not everybody should be the straight shoota. I get that Europe has the Japan mentality where they take it a little more seriously, but Japan still had gimmicks like Muta, Chono, Sasuke, Liger, etc. Not EVERYONE wore short trunks with the kickpads and the one elbow pad

There's too big of a gap between British wrestling and American wrestling to properly compare - you had guys like Big Daddie and Kendo Nagasaki who were more 'characters', but that was perceived as American influence on the British sport of catch-as-catch-can wrestling. For the most part, it was entirely presented as a sport - there was very little in the way of promos and any character displayed was almost entirely through their in-ring work. The crafty veteran who resorts to cheap tactics even when he doesn't need to, the plucky up and comer looking for that one big break, the honourable sportsman who's just out there in the spirit of competition, etc. Plus, often you'd find a wrestler's background providing a good deal of his character - the posh, private schooled southerner, versus the northerner who grew up to a poor coal mining family, for instance.

Also, you say not everyone can be a tough guy, but that was the ideal - wrestlers were MEANT to be tough guys. Characters were mostly reserved for comedy wrestling (Catweazle, for example). Perhaps that's part of why British wrestling struggled to make it out of the 80's, while WWF and WCW only grew in popularity over here.

Dragonzord said:
I'll even give Grado, Fergal, and Wade credit for trying to establish something. I love Finlay because he was a cranky old man, but if he wasn't old, he would have also been yet another Euro OI IM A TOUGH GUY gimmick. At least Vince's 'lets make Regal snooty' was something unqiue even if it is an incredibly shallow gimmick.

Finlay's gimmick was that of an Irish traveller (gypsy). There wasn't much to it; he was Irish. The English fans disliked the Irish and they especially disliked travellers, so it worked for some easy heat.

Dragonzord said:
What I'm saying is that I'm not surprised Bootaaay would support the man who won the PWG title. And I was more using that as an excuse to make fun of the new champ than Cole. But I don't think Cole's all that good either.

I'm not actually much of an O'Reilly fan - he's technically sound, but can't sell for shit. My issue was more with people who don't watch or no longer watch indie wrestling shitting on indie wrestling - it's a trend around here and it often seems like there's far more detractors than those who actually watch any of the numerous products available.
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
I think the problem is though that WCW, WWF, and territories had the 'tough guy' characters too. But they also had a gimmick to go with the tough guy character. Stan Hansen was a oafish, cowboy tough guy. Brody was a psychopath tough guy. Bad News Brown was a cynical tough guy. So on and so on. Vader was both a monster heel AND a tough guy.

Even back in the days of Japanese wrestling you did have guys like Kabuki.

I don't shit on all indie wrestling, or not for the reasons you might think. I catch Michinoku, try to catch DDT, Oz, Dragon Gate, etc if we're talking non-big budget shows and up and coming stars. My problem is mostly with the current state of western independent wrestling. And I think that problem is that currently? Western Indies act more Japanese than Japanese promotions. Even Japanese indies learned to stop making every fight pure shows of physical skill and completely erasing psychology because you're trying to show WWE you can do a lot of athletic things. It's the wrestling equivalent of staring at the camera during porn. Knock that shit off.

And then when you do have a guy who ISNT the usual indie guy, he's a joke character. That's what pisses me off the most. It's like indie promotions don't know how to book anyone who isn't 'puroresu and lucha libre inspired.' There's no Triple H or Shawn Michaels to counter the countless Benoits and Eddies.
 

Zach

Member
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Imagine Muta's mind when he realizes he missed the ropes and was going flying to the floor.

Blew my mind that he didn't die. Heck, it was basically the best, safest possible landing. Amazing.

Muta's top five, man. Top five!
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Is there a Muta DVD out there somewhere? I'd love to see/learn more about him.

There's hundreds.

In Japan. I'd post one of my favortie matches with Muta/Chono from 99, but it was taken down(which is a shame because it was WWE Network quality) and abload deletes gifs 5 seconds after they're uploaded now.
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Lemme ask you indie guys something.

Do Mike Bennett and Adam Cole know they're playing the same character?

It's similar, but it's not the same - Cole's current character would actually work a lot better if he wrestled more like Bennett. My biggest issue with Cole is that he needs to slow down, especially working as a heel champion.

Is there a Muta DVD out there somewhere? I'd love to see/learn more about him.

There's a couple of good sets out there, 'The Many Faces of Muto' has most of the essential stuff;

http://www.highspots.com/Compilations-DVD/18089.html

Then there's the Legacy of The Great Muta set, which is a bit more complete and has more of his stuff from 2000 onwards;

http://new.ivpvideos2.com/product_info.php?products_id=5529
 

Alucard

Banned
It's similar, but it's not the same - Cole's current character would actually work a lot better if he wrestled more like Bennett. My biggest issue with Cole is that he needs to slow down, especially working as a heel champion.



There's a couple of good sets out there, 'The Many Faces of Muto' has most of the essential stuff;

http://www.highspots.com/Compilations-DVD/18089.html

Then there's the Legacy of The Great Muta set, which is a bit more complete and has more of his stuff from 2000 onwards;

http://new.ivpvideos2.com/product_info.php?products_id=5529

Wicked. Thanks, bootaaay. I'll check out the links later. On my phone now and batt is dying.
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Muta's 'WILL HE JOIN THE NWO' thing was also done way better than Sting's. Because he joined then left then joined then left. Because he was a crazy demon man
 

strobogo

Banned
Chono, that's another guy I HATED before he got a gimmick. Stuffed down my throat. Whenever I'd rent a NJPW tape, THERE HE WAS. Then he became a Yakuza and Mutoh became a Muta. I think that's why I preferred NJPW to AJPW even though everyone was creaming themselves over Misawa and Kobashi and Kawada.

And Hashimoto didn't need a gimmick. Man had presence. Like he'd wrestle Vader and you were like, 'yeah I bet he could beat Vader.'

Steiners vs Hase/Chono from Clash 15 is one of the most enjoyable Chono matches I've seen. He was so far behind Muta and Hashimoto, yet seemed to pushed the hardest.
 
It's strange how that move has gotten so much less smooth as history has progressed.

Seriously. Even Nigel's looked like ass the majority of the time - I really don't like how the other guy has to sort of wait around for the move to hit.

Chono, that's another guy I HATED before he got a gimmick. Stuffed down my throat. Whenever I'd rent a NJPW tape, THERE HE WAS. Then he became a Yakuza and Mutoh became a Muta. I think that's why I preferred NJPW to AJPW even though everyone was creaming themselves over Misawa and Kobashi and Kawada.

And Hashimoto didn't need a gimmick. Man had presence.

Heh, I was just about the opposite - my favourite Chono is "quest to win the G1" Chono of the early 90's, with the white & green ring gear, well before he turned heel. The quality of his matches suffered (although not to the degree that Meltzer will have you believe) after he turned, but at least he was a break from the superman booking of Mutoh. I was definitely all about All Japan at the time, but find myself much more appreciative now of the work guys like Chono, Hase & Hash put in back then.
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Seriously. Even Nigel's looked like ass the majority of the time - I really don't like how the other guy has to sort of wait around for the move to hit.



Heh, I was just about the opposite - my favourite Chono is "quest to win the G1" Chono of the early 90's, with the white & green ring gear, well before he turned heel. The quality of his matches suffered (although not to the degree that Meltzer will have you believe) after he turned, but at least he was a break from the superman booking of Mutoh. I was definitely all about All Japan at the time, but find myself much more appreciative now of the work guys like Chono, Hase & Hash put in back then.

I don't know if you saw it, but you should watch the crowd from the Akiyama & Misawa vs Nagata & Hashimoto tag match when Akiyama tags in Misawa while he's got Hashimoto in the ring. That's your fucking Sting/Undertaker moment.
Steiners vs Hase/Chono from Clash 15 is one of the most enjoyable Chono matches I've seen. He was so far behind Muta and Hashimoto, yet seemed to pushed the hardest.

Going by his history in wrestling, I think Chono is the Triple H of Japanese wrestling. He's got a really good mind for it, and a lot of the office can appreciate that. Plus, I believe he was responsible for a lot of their gaijin contacts. I liked his heel turn a lot because I liked that character. I thought that character was unique and never done before and I'll take an interesting character over a slightly better wrestler any day of the week. Especially when it's in Japan and you have a dozen guys who were wrestling pretty much the same style as babyface Chono.
 
Hey Lambda, did you find the PWFG shows on youtube? I'm pretty sure I posted the link to the guy who uploaded them, but I might have forgot so here it is again;

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh68PcEF997mDoErZ7kUqFQ

I got that MLB game for PS4. I've never played a baseball game, or watched it, or even played the game IRL, but I do understanding the basics - however, I'm amazed how you guys have taken what's essentially a kids game over here (rounders) and made it SO COMPLICATED! Fucking stats!! So many stats and when the commentator's speak, it's just a garble of jargon that makes no sense at all to a noob. Didn't have half as much trouble getting to grips with American Football or basketball.

I don't know if you saw it, but you should watch the crowd from the Akiyama & Misawa vs Nagata & Hashimoto tag match when Akiyama tags in Misawa while he's got Hashimoto in the ring. That's your fucking Sting/Undertaker moment.

Yeah, that was a fantastic moment - Japanese crowds always react so well to stuff like that, especially for inter-promotional feuds and the like.

Here's the match - if anyone hasn't seen it, they probably should;

Shinya Hashimoto & Yuji Nagata vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama - (ZERO1 2001/03/02)
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Dude coming out to Gangnam Style in 2014 is a little lame, but I turned around on it because Ishimori fucking sells it
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Modern day ultimate warrior, brahs. With less gassing out after entrance.
 

Kornflayx

Member
Chono, that's another guy I HATED before he got a gimmick. Stuffed down my throat. Whenever I'd rent a NJPW tape, THERE HE WAS. Then he became a Yakuza and Mutoh became a Muta. I think that's why I preferred NJPW to AJPW even though everyone was creaming themselves over Misawa and Kobashi and Kawada.

And Hashimoto didn't need a gimmick. Man had presence. Like he'd wrestle Vader and you were like, 'yeah I bet he could beat Vader.'

Hashimoto also had one of the most awesome entrance themes of all time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OodeyE5Pf44
 
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