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[Pureauthor]

So a game about playing as a little weird-looking prince of the universe rolling a ball of junk to make it larger and larger to replace stars destroyed by his equally weird-looking and slightly homo-erotic father using a spartan art style and tank controls would be... easier or harder to market?

Well, last I heard the invisible martians were in talks about making it the official sport of the planet.

Yet, they haven't been crucified. That just shows the lack of appeal of this title to anyone who isn't some Adventure game "fan".

And you're fooling yourself if don't think that there are sufficient numbers of adventure game fans that could have boosted sales of this game had they known about it.

Screw this, Imma gonna play some DotA.

 

[ethelred]

Yet, they haven't been crucified. That just shows the lack of appeal of this title to anyone who isn't some Adventure game "fan".

That comment was about Wii system limitations (in particular, the lack of implementation for a solution to the storage problem rather than glibly patronizing BS), not Treasure Island Z. Try to keep up with the flow of polemics, please.

Time to buy a second ps3.

Ahaha. Wow.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Time to buy a second ps3.

You have 4 jobs?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

That comment was about Wii system limitations (in particular, the lack of implementation for a solution to the storage problem rather than glibly patronizing BS), not Treasure Island Z. Try to keep up with the flow of polemics, please.



Ahaha. Wow.

A fool and his money are somethingsomething

jubei, why not donate that four hundred bucks to charity? Or donate your old PS3 to a children's hospital?

 

[Defuser]

You have 4 jobs?

3 jobs thanks to the price cut.

 

[Neo C.]

I don't think Nintendo and Capcom went wrong with Z&W. Sure, you can always put more money (a few millions?) into the advertisement, but there's no guarantee to see this money back in the revenue.

Well, I imagine an advertising channel on the Wii could make a few things better: show trailers to the oncoming or recently released titles, teasers to future projects, short interviews with developers (with lots of ingame-scenes) etc. Just stream all these trailers, so there isn't a problem with the storage. Such an advertising channel is comparably cheap, at least for Nintendo (probably 3rd parties need to pay a fee).
Perhaps it could add a few units to the sales.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I don't think Nintendo and Capcom went wrong with Z&W. Sure, you can always put more money (a few millions?) into the advertisement, but there's no guarantee to see this money back in the revenue.

Then why even bother making the game if you're so fatalistic about its outcome? Did Capcom fund the whole thing as a tax write-off?

 

[Rancid Mildew]

I don't really care if Zack and Wiki isn't going to revive the genre but any Wii owner should care about third party bombs. Nintendo lost all of its relationships with third party publishers a long time ago. It's not going to earn it back without a fight. A good start would be to help market third party titles which would help meet and exceed sales projections. More important though, it would demonstrate that Nintendo is interested in the well being of its software partners. It's especially important for a game like Zack and Wiki because the success of that title would encourage creative ways to use the controller which is the only thing that sets the Wii apart aside from its lack of processing power. That would secure a lot more risky exclusives for the system which is particularly important for such an oddball system. The real tragedy here is that some of greatest non-Nintendo minds in the history gaming are out there fully endorsing the merits of the system, calling it the only real next-gen system, and yet market failures like Zack and Wiki can only serve to limit their willingness to go forward with ambitious Wii projects.

But as many people have said, Nintendo probably won't do anything. Their meteoric rise (most profitable year ever for any game company in history) has been accomplished without third parties and through those ahem... games. Honestly, the only creative salvation I see right now is ironically, WiiFit which I think/hope will be the Wii's Nintendogs moment. Who would have thought in 2005 that the DS would the best platform this generation and one of the best of all time? I wonder if the Wii can meet a similar fate.

 

[NeonZ]

That comment was about Wii system limitations (in particular, the lack of implementation for a solution to the storage problem rather than glibly patronizing BS), not Treasure Island Z. Try to keep up with the flow of polemics, please.

I was following it. That argument initially started because it was said that a demo could help this game, and then other people said that demos can't work in the Wii due to lack of storage, then you said that.

I meant to say that a lack of demos hadn't hurt Nintendo, so this game's failure can't be said to be due to that. It failed because it isn't appealing to anyone besides a niche group. A demo wouldn't change the results significantly.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

A fool and his money are somethingsomething

jubei, why not donate that four hundred bucks to charity? Or donate your old PS3 to a children's hospital?

I think he'd do Sony a much bigger favor if he spent $400 on games.

 

[Wonderdave]

I meant to say that a lack of demos hadn't hurt Nintendo, so this game's failure can't be said to be due to that. It failed because it isn't appealing to anyone besides a niche group. A demo wouldn't change the results significantly.

I would say that demos are the most effective marketing tool a console holder or developer has. I subscribed to OPM for years soley because of the demo disc. I would have passed on a lot of really good games like Parrappa the Rapper, Ico or MGS if not for demos.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I don't really care if Zack and Wiki isn't going to revive the genre but any Wii owner should care about third party bombs. Nintendo lost all of its relationships with third party publishers a long time ago. It's not going to earn it back without a fight. A good start would be to help market third party titles which would help meet and exceed sales projections. More important though, it would demonstrate that Nintendo is interested in the well being of its software partners. It's especially important for a game like Zack and Wiki because the success of that title would encourage creative ways to use the controller which is the only thing that sets the Wii apart aside from its lack of processing power. That would secure a lot more risky exclusives for the system which is particularly important for such an oddball system. The real tragedy here is that some of greatest non-Nintendo minds in the history gaming are out there fully endorsing the merits of the system, calling it the only real next-gen system, and yet market failures like Zack and Wiki can only serve to limit their willingness to go forward with ambitious Wii projects.

But as many people have said, Nintendo probably won't do anything. Their meteoric rise (most profitable year ever for any game company in history) has been accomplished without third parties and through those ahem... games. Honestly, the only creative salvation I see right now is ironically, WiiFit which I think/hope will be the Wii's Nintendogs moment. Who would have thought in 2005 that the DS would the best platform this generation and one of the best of all time? I wonder if the Wii can meet a similar fate.

I'm looking at the DS, and it has a ton of third party hits, some that Nintendo helped out (Professor Layton).

 

[Neo C.]

Then why even bother making the game if you're so fatalistic about its outcome? Did Capcom fund the whole thing as a tax write-off?

When you began a project several months ago, you didn't know how many units the retailers would order in the end, did you? It's not like every game can break even.

I'm not too nervous about Z&W. It's a cost-extensive product, so it could break even on a world-wide scale. Afaik Capcom was satisfied with the Z&W launch in the USA. Sure, it could be better, but there's chance for a reprint.

 

[brain_stew]

When you began a project several months ago, you didn't know how many units the retailers would order in the end, did you? It's not like every game can break even.

I'm not too nervous about Z&W. It's a cost-extensive product, so it could break even on a world-wide scale. Afaik Capcom was satisfied with the Z&W launch in the USA. Sure, it could be better, but there's chance for a reprint.

Upon hearing that Nintendo are pulishers in Europe I think it should do enough to break even. Nintendo advertise their games more than anyone else here in the UK, and the charts reflect that. Trauma Center wouldn't have done nearly as well here were it not for Nintendo of Europe's backing.

 

[charlequin]

Its only usefull to market a game when there is big hype for the game in the first place.

No. That is an extremely foolish thing to say. Marketing is what makes hype.

There are limits to what marketing can accomplish (you can't sell Swiss cheese to a stone) but in general it can make the difference between everyone in your target audience buying it and no one. Given the sales for Gyakuten Saiban these days I'm quite certain the potential target market for Z&W is well above the pitiful ~12k it's going to put up lifetime in Japan, and good marketing is what could have made the difference.

 

[charlequin]

I don't think Nintendo and Capcom went wrong with Z&W. Sure, you can always put more money (a few millions?) into the advertisement, but there's no guarantee to see this money back in the revenue.

The first sign that you shouldn't be talking about how marketing affects game sales is if you think that said marketing is limited to "throw a few millions into advertisements."

I'm looking at the DS, and it has a ton of third party hits, some that Nintendo helped out (Professor Layton).

Which... once again gets back to what I was saying. Nintendo has built a marketing staff that can push a game like Layton, because it requires a similar approach to what Nintendo are using to push their own (scare-quotes here, people, don't pick at my word choice) "non-games."

The DS also still has the advantage of carrying over all of the third-party success on the GBA, with series like Gyakuten Saiban, Rockman.exe, etc. Wii only has the advantage of carrying over all of the third-party success from the GameCube: i.e. not a single success ever.

 

[Oldschool]

So FF tactics PSP sold better than FFTA2?

Interesting.

 

[Pureauthor]

The DS also still has the advantage of carrying over all of the third-party success on the GBA, with series like Gyakuten Saiban, Rockman.exe, etc. Wii only has the advantage of carrying over all of the third-party success from the GameCube: i.e. not a single success ever.

I can list one game off the top of my head whose sales success on GCN translated over to the Wii. :lol

 

[Neo C.]

The first sign that you shouldn't be talking about how marketing affects game sales is if you think that said marketing is limited to "throw a few millions into advertisements."

Like I said, Nintendo need to find some cost-effective types of advertisement, like an advertisement channel on the Wii. Most forms of advertisement are quite expensive or not effective. And it's not like Z&W is game which you can easily advertise it, even by words of mouth. I will have a hard time to convince some friends to try this game.

Edit: when I said "a few millions" I meant it in a sarcastic way.

 

[Phife Dawg]

I've come to the conclusion that you have zero comprehension of anything sales or marketing related.

In this particular case? It's hard to get the situation to be exactly analogous. It's one of the -- if not the -- first quality third party titles on the system. It's gotten positive reviews, and most people that have played it have loved it. I'm not sure Sony was in a position where they really had only a single quality third party game to trumpet, but I think if they had been, that horn would've been blaring our ears off.

But really, it's the fact that this game is such a marked difference in quality from the bulk of the shovelware that has infested this system from the moment it launched (and the fact that it was coming from a very key third party partner, in one of the only companies to announce several high profile, high quality original products) that should've been Nintendo's indication that it was a game worth supporting in order to ensure their partner's sucess and help Wii publishing remain viable in the future.

So you get it out there, you get people playing it, you help build awareness of it, because you've got a really high quality title on your hands. Not only that, but it's the sort of thing that genuinely can't be done on another machine and really helps prove the viability of the control scheme. That's definitely worth promoting.

Excuses, excuses. You think Treasure Island Z is a shitty name? I think Wii is even worse -- but somehow Nintendo managed to market the crap out of that, didn't they? The genre was never established on consoles? I'm not sure I buy that (adventure games have been popular on many consoles, handhelds, and PCs), but even if it's true, that just gives another demographic for Nintendo to supposedly reach out to and get to embrace their new console vision. Considering that point & click adventures were at one time shockingly popular and are one of the genres most heralded as potentially perfect for the controller, it's certainly incumbent upon Nintendo to help the genre succeed on their machine when it debuts with such a high quality outing.

And Nintendo deserves to be crucified for that.

Of course it's not 100% comparable. But let's take UGG for instance, this is pretty much comparable. Same dev team iirc, same publisher, virtually no hype. Where was Sony? And why should they've been there in the first place (allthough PSP needs those kind of support more since we know that Nintendo can pretty much support a system on their own). I haven't seen a big push from Sony for any third party PSP title tbh.

As I said, they're apparently publishing the game in Europe and they published Trauma Center before.

I'm not making excuses since I never expected this to sell well in the first place. I expected this to bomb the first time we heard about it and saw screenshots. Well there was Manic Mansion on the NES I don't have any sales numbers but I'd think it did better on C64, after all Zak McKraken did not see a release on home consoles. And that's right, they were popular, immensely even. They are not right now, p&c doesn't even light the PC charts on fire. Apparently S&M did OK but that's an established franchise - and a highly touted at that.

Do we know ZnW's Europe sales numbers? (Is it even out there yet?)

Marketing absolutely does give games boosts. Now, I don't know what you mean exactly by 'save', but I guarantee you that had ZnW been marketed properly, it would have seen significantly higher sales than it is seeing now.

Good. Like I said, once we see ZnW doing well in Europe, we can rejoice. Meanwhile, NoJ has dropped the ball on this.

Like ethelred said - Sony was swimming is worthwhile 3rd party efforts in those two cases. If they'd tried to market each and every last good game that came out their marketing budget would have blown up in their faces.

Not out yet in Euroland. P&C is rather popular on PC around here (as opposed to the rest of the world, it's on the decline though - see above) but I don't think that fanbase has transitioned to Wii (if they will ever). I think it'll do OK though.

No. That is an extremely foolish thing to say. Marketing is what makes hype.

There are limits to what marketing can accomplish (you can't sell Swiss cheese to a stone) but in general it can make the difference between everyone in your target audience buying it and no one. Given the sales for Gyakuten Saiban these days I'm quite certain the potential target market for Z&W is well above the pitiful ~12k it's going to put up lifetime in Japan, and good marketing is what could have made the difference.

:lol say what?

 

[ksamedi]

So a game about playing as a little weird-looking prince of the universe rolling a ball of junk to make it larger and larger to replace stars destroyed by his equally weird-looking and slightly homo-erotic father using a spartan art style and tank controls would be... easier or harder to market?

Well, I guess you roll and so makes it a lot easier sinse its a game about rolling.

Edit: Also, all you so called marketers out here, I'm pretty sure that Capcom has a good marketing division as well, with plenty of smart people. If they didn't market the game enough, they have there reason for it. Its not a stupid decision like, uuuuhhh shall we market Zack and Wiki and raise its sales to succes??? nahh, let it die. The world is not simple like that.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Did Zack and Wiki even get to enough retailers to sell well? all reports i've read say retailers barely bothered to order it.

 

[tehbear]

I think he'd do Sony a much bigger favor if he spent $400 on games.

He's adding to Sony losses by buying a 2nd PS3. Clearly a Sony hater. Yes. That's it.

 

[charlequin]

:lol say what?

The game is probably going to top out around 12k lifetime sales. There are many more than 12k Wii owners who could probably have been convinced to buy this game if it was sold to them differently. Which part of that is confusing you?

 

[Phoenix Down]

I wonder if the PS3 can beat out the wii in november and december sales.. with the price cut and GT5P.. its possible.. there numbers are very close this week

I also took into account wii fit.. maybe im dumb but i dont see it having a big impact in japan.. theres alot of healthy people over there hardly any fat people... IMO wii fit would do wayyy better in USA.. mark those words

 

[Phife Dawg]

The game is probably going to top out around 12k lifetime sales. There are many more than 12k Wii owners who could probably have been convinced to buy this game if it was sold to them differently. Which part of that is confusing you?

You do know that 6.000 is first day sales?

I wonder if the PS3 can beat out the wii in november and december sales.. with the price cut and GT5P.. its possible.. there numbers are very close this week

I also took into account wii fit.. maybe im dumb but i dont see it having a big impact in japan.. theres alot of healthy people over there hardly any fat people... IMO wii fit would do wayyy better in USA.. mark those words

We had this before 30% of the male japanese population is overweight, 27% or so of the female population. Of course those that are overweight are not as obscenely fat like the typical USA fatty but still. Also my father is interested in WiiFit and he is very fit for his age, he sees it as a fun way to have a little excercise.

 

[schuelma]

I wonder if the PS3 can beat out the wii in november and december sales.. with the price cut and GT5P.. its possible.. there numbers are very close this week

I also took into account wii fit.. maybe im dumb but i dont see it having a big impact in japan.. theres alot of healthy people over there hardly any fat people... IMO wii fit would do wayyy better in USA.. mark those words

You are completely and utterly wrong

 

[Lightning]

I wonder if the PS3 can beat out the wii in november and december sales.. with the price cut and GT5P.. its possible.. there numbers are very close this week

I also took into account wii fit.. maybe im dumb but i dont see it having a big impact in japan.. theres alot of healthy people over there hardly any fat people... IMO wii fit would do wayyy better in USA.. mark those words

No it can't. Mario Galaxy puts a stop to that on the very first day in November and it will continue right through the holidays.

 

[Phoenix Down]

No it can't. Mario Galaxy puts a stop to that on the very first day in November and it will continue right through the holidays.

really i read recently Mario in japan isent very popular... there was more advertisement for FF CC... anyways mario hasent sold well in Japan for a VERY long time..

 

[slaughterking]

really i read recently Mario in japan isent very popular... there was more advertisement for FF CC...

And still, retailer preorders weeks ago were as big as FFVII CCs LTD sales.

anyways mario hasent sold well in Japan for a VERY long time.. see sunshine

And I guess NSMB doesn't count because it's a DS game and therefor it's no indication of the franchises popularity.

 

[Fady K]

Damn, slow week. And daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn @ Zak & Wiki sales. Boooo Capcom.

 

[ethelred]

really i read recently Mario in japan isent very popular... there was more advertisement for FF CC... anyways mario hasent sold well in Japan for a VERY long time..

Mario Party 8 sold more than Crisis Core.

As I said, they're apparently publishing the game in Europe and they published Trauma Center before.

Why do you people keep bringing up the backwater podunk dregs of gamingdom? No one cares about that wasteland of a continent.

 

[davepoobond]

Mario Party 8 sold more than Crisis Core.

and super mario sunshine

 

[Xeke]

The hyperbole in this thread is painful. Crucifixion over video games...?
:lol

The last word I thought I'd ever see in a video game sales topic.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I wonder if the PS3 can beat out the wii in november and december sales.. with the price cut and GT5P.. its possible.. there numbers are very close this week

Surely you can't be serious. Even with it being a slow period for Wii, it's never sold as few units as PS3 did with this week's price drop bump.

really i read recently Mario in japan isent very popular... there was more advertisement for FF CC... anyways mario hasent sold well in Japan for a VERY long time.. see sunshine

If we ignore New Super Mario Bros... yes, you can make the argument that Gran Turismo has been a more successful series in Japan than 3D Marios. However, even with the userbase difference, Super Mario Sunshine sold more than Gran Turismo 4 Prologue, which would be the closest direct comparisons to SMG and GT5P.

 

[Xeke]

really i read recently Mario in japan isent very popular... there was more advertisement for FF CC... anyways mario hasent sold well in Japan for a VERY long time..

Yeah. NSMB's sales are pretty terrible.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

I wonder if the PS3 can beat out the wii in november and december sales.. with the price cut and GT5P.. its possible.. there numbers are very close this week

With a game that sold 3.3 million copies in 11 days, the Xbox 360 just barely beat the Wii.

 

[charlequin]

You do know that 6.000 is first day sales?

....yes? And? From the reports we're receiving, those first-day sales seem to be making up the majority of the shipment, because no one even bothered to order the game.

Maybe 12k is a bit low; it could double its first day sales over the course of its first week and crawl up to 17-18k, I guess, if there are in fact more copies to purchase. It's deckchairs on the Titanic at this point, though.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

Good God! It's Old Reliable! But poor old Hiro's going to have quite a bit of a time selling it again! Maybe he should just coat it in Ceramic White paint... ;-/

HA HA, I can't believe it's back :lol Maybe he should mod it to make it sell?

Poor Zack & Wiki, at least I ordered my copy (US version, I AM PART OF THE SOLUTION!) damn international shipping!

 

[Phife Dawg]

Mario Party 8 sold more than Crisis Core.

Why do you people keep bringing up the backwater podunk dregs of gamingdom? No one cares about that wasteland of a continent.

I know it was tongue-in-cheek but living for almost a year in the US of A hasn't convinced me that NA is the promised land. I must admit that I stayed in Iowa most of that time though :lol .

....yes? And? From the reports we're receiving, those first-day sales seem to be making up the majority of the shipment, because no one even bothered to order the game.

Maybe 12k is a bit low; it could double its first day sales over the course of its first week and crawl up to 17-18k, I guess, if there are in fact more copies to purchase. It's deckchairs on the Titanic at this point, though.

So first week=LTD? It'll beat 12k LTD easily. Doesn't change the fact it's a bomb but still.

 

[charlequin]

So first week=LTD?

Again, based on the statement that the game wasn't even ordered by many retailers (and the fact that nobody wants it) I doubt first week will double first day -- look at ASH, which did 40k on day one and went on to sell only 10k for the rest of the first week. It also wasn't over-ordered, so it won't have a price collapse to drive post-day-one sales.

Like I said, 12k is on the conservative end, but it's not like the game is going to hit 30k.

 

[Oblivion]

So ksamedi, off-hand, how do you think Katamari Damacy on the PS2 achieved the wild success that it did?

Wild success? Didn't it only sell like 500k WW? (someone can correct me, as I don't know)

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Wild success? Didn't it only sell like 500k WW? (someone can correct me, as I don't know)

Checking Wikipedia...

...in Japan the game was only a moderate success, with 155,869 units sold in 2004 despite its low price tag of ¥4725, about two thirds the price of a regular PS2 game.

...its sales passing the 120,000 units mark in North America.

...did not get a release in PAL territories...

Still, seems Z&W has an uphill battle to reach 100K worldwide, let alone 300K.

 

[Oblivion]

Checking Wikipedia...

Still, seems Z&W has an uphill battle to reach 100K worldwide, let alone 300K.

Yeah, I saw that, but I don't trust Wiki a lot, so I was hoping someone would have more accurate numbers.

In any case, assuming that's correct, that's not that as impressive as it's being made out to be.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Checking Wikipedia...

Still, seems Z&W has an uphill battle to reach 100K worldwide, let alone 300K.

I think if it's lucky, it'll end at around 60,000 world wide sales.

Which wouldn't be bad considering no advertising, kiddy style, and every other thing working against the poor little game.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Yeah, I saw that, but I don't trust Wiki a lot, so I was hoping someone would have more accurate numbers.

The sources seem pretty solid, though it's missing any post-2004 sales.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

PhoenixDown, never change you crazy goofball

 

[Chumly]

I wonder if the PS3 can beat out the wii in november and december sales.. with the price cut and GT5P.. its possible.. there numbers are very close this week

I also took into account wii fit.. maybe im dumb but i dont see it having a big impact in japan.. theres alot of healthy people over there hardly any fat people... IMO wii fit would do wayyy better in USA.. mark those words

People keep acting like only fat people are going to buy Wii Fit. I dont know a single "fat" peoson currently that wants to buy Wii Fit. Its only healthy people that want to STAY healthly that are interested in it. I understand theres going to be fat people that will buy it to get healthy but people will be surprised how many fit people are gonna buy it.

 

[Lobster]

Again, based on the statement that the game wasn't even ordered by many retailers (and the fact that nobody wants it) I doubt first week will double first day -- look at ASH, which did 40k on day one and went on to sell only 10k for the rest of the first week. It also wasn't over-ordered, so it won't have a price collapse to drive post-day-one sales.

Like I said, 12k is on the conservative end, but it's not like the game is going to hit 30k.

We will see..Personally I think it will hit 20k first week and climb to 30k. The game will do best in PAL land possibly selling 100k (I fucking hope) and sell like 50k in Americas.

This is my assumption..I hope thats enough for profit.

 

[Eteric Rice]

really i read recently Mario in japan isent very popular... there was more advertisement for FF CC... anyways mario hasent sold well in Japan for a VERY long time..

:lol :lol :lol