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[Krowley]

That is the problem ... tacked on crap. Wii wasn't made to abandon traditional game types, it was made to expand the possibilities. The problem comes when developers think they can release the same old thing with waggle replacing a button press and graphics that show they didn't even try. That won't sell games to traditional gamers.

.

Actually, I think some of the best game so far for wii are basicly traditional games, using waggle to make up for the lack of face buttons, and heavy use of the aiming cursor.

It seems that the aiming cursor is really more revolutionary and useful for game design than the motion control, at least for traditional games, The best thing about waggle is that it allows them to free up buttons. which is great because there are so few buttons on the wii.

Examples include mario galaxy, zelda TP, Zack and wiki, metroid prime 3, and RE4 port.

It's the aiming cursor that's really adding to the experience, while the waggle is simply replacing buttons, or adding a bit of novelty. I expect other developers to pick up on this trend and start designing more games around it. Unlike the waggle, the cursor is immediate, and precise and very reliable at all times. It also allows you to greatly extend the kinds of games you can make for wii. It absolutley can't be mimicked on any of the other consoles.

The one other thing that's really precise is the the tilt functionality, although it's apparently somewhat hard to tune (since all games don't get it right). Games like Korinpa(SP?) demonstrate that it's totally precise when tuned correctly.

In most games I've played, the gesture recognition aspect has has always been a little bit questionable. The more complicated the gesture, the more questionable it is. A simple shake works well, but when the motions get complex, it stops being reliable. A few exceptions would be wii sports (bowling and tennis) and godfather, which can be a bit rough around the edges, but is funner because of the waggle.

Even in godfathers case, the waggle is replacing button presses and adding novelty to the experience, not really extending the gameplay.

edit// and another thing...

The other things that's working well for the wii is the reduction in the number of face buttons and the missing analog stick. It seems strange that the lack of something would add to a game, but it's causing some games to focus hard on making better camera's and trimming the fat from their design..

Examples include mario galaxy's camera (apparently the best in any 3d mario), which would not have been as big a focus if there was another analog stick, and the stacking beam weapons in prime 3, which streamlined the experience a little bit.

 

[Vinnk]

Wonderful charts and graphs

Thanks! It's been a long time. I missed these. Great to see them again.

 

[PantherLotus]

Thanks! It's been a long time. I missed these. Great to see them again.

You should quote them so this page can enjoy them too!

 

[gimz]

Did anyone post this?

Begins!

i just showed my girl friend the new wii fit video
and she usually hates games, but first thing she said when she watch the video was "I want this!"

and yes she is Japanese

 

[mepaco]

Actually, I think some of the best game so far for wii are basicly traditional games, using waggle to make up for the lack of face buttons, and heavy use of the aiming cursor.

It seems that the aiming cursor is really more revolutionary and useful for game design than the motion control, at least for traditional games, The best thing about waggle is that it allows them to free up buttons. which is great because there are so few buttons on the wii.

I've been arguing this for a while. The motion controls are interesting and have some fun uses but the integrated pointer is awesome and more beneficial to games overall. But even this needs to be used properly. Developers who just add it to access menu items aren't doing much with it. But from what I've seen games like PES do some pretty cool stuff with it and games like MOH:H2 really nails the FPS controls and allows heavy customization. Basically, tacked on anything won't sell games.

 

[PantherLotus]

Before we go any further with the "pointer is the best thing" about the wiimote, let's all agree that we should be able to turn the cursor off at any time for any reason. ALL IN FAVOR SAY FUCK YES

 

[charlequin]

The DS is a great system that many people enjoy not just for the new twists its innovations bring in games, but also because it has a strong, diverse library full of new types of games and traditional games alike. The Wii ought to be the same.

On the fucking nose.

 

[Magic Mile]

Before we go any further with the "pointer is the best thing" about the wiimote, let's all agree that we should be able to turn the cursor off at any time for any reason. ALL IN FAVOR SAY FUCK YES

Yes, but I think that Archery in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games has the best Wii Controls I have seen. Uses both the pointer and tilt, its awesome.

 

[PantherLotus]

On the fucking nose.

He said what I was trying to say but a bit more succinctly.

 

[justchris]

Look to the PS2. Would any person by that system for God of War alone? Perhaps. What about SotC, or Okami, Katamari, or numerous other surprisingly-low selling works of art? They aren't system movers by themselves. But collectively, they become an unstoppable force of awesomeness that not even the most cynical of graphic whores can dismiss.

That's true, too, to a certain extent. There are some games that are system sellers, which are called so because a person will buy the system just for that game. For me, personally, I could buy a Wii as a dedicated Smash Bros. Brawl player, and feel it was $480 well spent (4 controllers). But that thinking only applies to hardcore players, casuals are less inclined to spend upwards of $250 for one game.

Still, for the majority of the userbase, it's about a mass of quality titles rather than any one specific title. I know that's why I finally bought a PSP.

 

[kay]

The DS is a great system that many people enjoy not just for the new twists its innovations bring in games, but also because it has a strong, diverse library full of new types of games and traditional games alike. The Wii ought to be the same.

It's not the same business, it was an easy transition with gameboy to DS as the DS allows traditional games and there wasn't much competition as the PSP came in late with its pants down. With consoles, there are 3 other contenders which weren't present with handhelds. These contenders (PC, PS3, 360) are virtually equal as in they allow for porting the same games over. The software on these systems allow for generally the same sort of setup, demo to promote the game, videos to advertise, hard drive space to store whatever. Developers like this as they can maximize profits with horse armor with less redesigning of things, time and money. This is how you get the most profits on those systems. Why do you think developers are crying foul about the Cell processor? Does every developer care about better processing at its expense? It doesn't allow for easy straight ports (which is almost every non 1st party published game nowadays) but the Wii does not allow it all so you must rework the game (or not...we've seen the results of that). You could say "where are the Wii only games then if porting is not working/results in bad games?". Again, developers want to maximize profits and if they find something that works like "non-games", they will keep doing it. You can't expect them all to go all out with exclusives, especially this generation (any platform this could apply to). Traditional games have been released and have done mediocre so why change things? People say "blame the 3rd parties, not Nintendo" all the time about this, I said this before but Nintendo did a great job alienating itself for better or for worse. My personal opinion is they did the right thing for their company and fans but it just doesn't work for consoles this generation. That may change if the suddenly the other system breaks down but isn't very likely.
I'm not saying the system isn't going to get any of those types of games but it is not going to be a DS situation here. I think smaller studios will make the Wii have a much bigger and better library than the GC and it will get a lot more top tier titles. The 360 is owning everything in terms of attach rate and it is because of easy programming (more quality games) and the service the console provides. Take a lesson Sony and Nintendo. Well, not Nintendo as they make money anyways. Poor Sony..

I have a feeling Amir0x is going to unleash the banhammer.

 

[Fredescu]

Could specify what you mean by doom and gloom?

I don't actually think there is any major doom and gloom with regards to the Wii, PS2 had plenty of 20k weeks in its lifetime. I was just pointing out that the only "doom and gloom" that surrounds far and away the best selling console this gen is in comparison to handhelds. As JJSlone pointed out, the explosion of handheld sales aren't necessarily at the expense of consoles.

 

[PantherLotus]

I don't actually think there is any major doom and gloom with regards to the Wii, PS2 had plenty of 20k weeks in its lifetime. I was just pointing out that the only "doom and gloom" that surrounds far and away the best selling console this gen is in comparison to handhelds. As JJSlone pointed out, the explosion of handheld sales aren't necessarily at the expense of consoles.

Ah.

I'm just wondering what everybody is so worried about. From a cynical point of view, the company with the best business plan with the most appealing product has always won, and always will. The reason these threads are even relevant is because we are on a weekly quest not to find out which company is going to win tha console warz, but rather, which company has the best plan and product.

The one with both gets the most games, and the best games. It will remain so, even in this clusterfuck of a generation. If none of them do, something else will take it's place. Currently, it looks like handheld gaming is filling that need.

 

[Krowley]

I've been arguing this for a while. The motion controls are interesting and have some fun uses but the integrated pointer is awesome and more beneficial to games overall. But even this needs to be used properly. Developers who just add it to access menu items aren't doing much with it. But from what I've seen games like PES do some pretty cool stuff with it and games like MOH:H2 really nails the FPS controls and allows heavy customization. Basically, tacked on anything won't sell games.

I agree with that. I would also like to see more games designed specificly because of the cursor functionality.. Like Zack and wiki, or Kings story. These are games that probably wouldn't be made if the wii didn't have aiming.

The other catagory that's beginning to mature are 3rd person action/adventure games, with the specific mix of cursor aiming + analog stick to move. It's a very simple and obvious combination, but these games are very fun to play and have a unique feel on the wii. It's slowly morphing into a wii specific sub-genre.

Zelda was the first game with this style, mario is the latest, and in between we've seen RE4 and godfather and Scarface. All of them have their own take on it, but apparently they all work well. The next step in this genre is more games where the cursor isn't just used for aiming and shooting. The manipulation of objects and multitasking in mario galaxy is a good example. I have a feeling that FFCC might make good use of this functionality, although it's just a hunch.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

It's not the same business, it was an easy transition with gameboy to DS as the DS allows traditional games and there wasn't much competition as the PSP came in late with its pants down. With consoles, there are 3 other contenders which weren't present with handhelds. These contenders (PC, PS3, 360) are virtually equal as in they allow for porting the same games over. The software on these systems allow for generally the same sort of setup, demo to promote the game, videos to advertise, hard drive space to store whatever. Developers like this as they can maximize profits with horse armor with less redesigning of things, time and money. This is how you get the most profits on those systems. Why do you think developers are crying foul about the Cell processor? Does every developer care about better processing at its expense? It doesn't allow for easy straight ports (which is almost every non 1st party published game nowadays) but the Wii does not allow it all so you must rework the game (or not...we've seen the results of that). You could say "where are the Wii only games then if porting is not working/results in bad games?". Again, developers want to maximize profits and if they find something that works like "non-games", they will keep doing it. You can't expect them all to go all out with exclusives, especially this generation (any platform this could apply to). Traditional games have been released and have done mediocre so why change things? People say "blame the 3rd parties, not Nintendo" all the time about this, I said this before but Nintendo did a great job alienating itself for better or for worse. My personal opinion is they did the right thing for their company and fans but it just doesn't work for consoles this generation. That may change if the suddenly the other system breaks down but isn't very likely.
I'm not saying the system isn't going to get any of those types of games but it is not going to be a DS situation here. I think smaller studios will make the Wii have a much bigger and better library than the GC and it will get a lot more top tier titles. The 360 is owning everything in terms of attach rate and it is because of easy programming (more quality games) and the service the console provides. Take a lesson Sony and Nintendo. Well, not Nintendo as they make money anyways. Poor Sony..

I have a feeling Amir0x is going to unleash the banhammer.

The 360 is never going to be anything better than 2nd place. If Wii sales can continue to dominate the 360 in every region as they have this whole year, that gap is going to get wider and wider. That gap's importance is strengthened the larger it gets.

The 360 is also a pretty poor example to point to for a diverse lineup. While it's a lot more diverse than the original Xbox's software lineup, it's still rather hung up on particular themes.

Why would you think Ami's going to drop the hammer?

 

[Liabe Brave]

The DS is a great system that many people enjoy not just for the new twists its innovations bring in games, but also because it has a strong, diverse library full of new types of games and traditional games alike. The Wii ought to be the same.

When the DS was announced, its predecessor ruled handheld gaming with an iron fist, and the DS' new functions were basically additions to it: another screen, and touch sensitivity. Even against the coming PSP, it could be expected to sell well.

Wii's control system isn't quite as novel as often suggested, but it isn't that conservative either. Also, one of the loudest voices saying it would be a "revolution" was Nintendo themselves, and their focus on WiiSports proved their commitment to that ideal. And Wii was the followup to a poor performer.

I think developers saw an easier, smoother upgrade path from GBA to DS, and were willing to put traditional games on there immediately. It sold well even before Nintendogs and others made it a phenom. On the Wii, only larger corporations, able to take more risks and build larger teams, decided to drop AAA traditional games in this first year (out already, or soon): Nintendo themselves, EA, Capcom, Ubisoft, and Square Enix.

Creating traditional home console games takes a couple years nowadays, and I think smaller dev houses were biding their time to see what happened. Next year, I expect a flood of quality games of all kinds as we finally see the results of a strong transition from PS2 to Wii products.

 

[Jiggy]

Why Handhelds will destroy consoles in every market:
1. Hardware Cost (both to develop and to purchase)
2. Cost of Games (both to develop and to purchase)
3. Variety of games
4. Casual Market is interested. (aka 2D gaming)
5. Hardcore Market is interested. (aka old school gaming)
6. The current console race is an atrocity.

Pretty much. Both in terms of what I think will happen and what I hope will happen.

Also, great to see the return of Panther charts. I appreciate your work more than ever after the lengthy absence.

 

[Pachael]

Pretty much. Both in terms of what I think will happen and what I hope will happen.

Also, great to see the return of Panther charts. I appreciate your work more than ever after the lengthy absence.

And of course, the portables have, uh, portability that the consoles can never match!

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

As I said in the other MC thread, I think they already have replaced consoles: they're "sophisticated enough" to emulate console-style gameplay.

That's pretty much how I felt upon getting my DS. That 3D was no longer the realm only of the console, so what was exclusive to consoles suddenly became a lot smaller. However, the Wii controllers bring something exclusive back to consoles, when used well.

6. Thanks. I love the attention. Even if it's just people saying, "yeah I saw it and .... is interesting," it helps me realize that my time isn't wasted.
7. While I'm thinking about it, JJ, your work is fucking amazing. Please never stop.

Ahh, the good ol' mutual appreciation society!

As for me, I've no plans to stop anytime soon. This stuff is a pretty great confluence of personal interest, shared interest, enough ability, and enough left undone. Working on Anicro Desapro was enjoyable for similar reasons, but that was a fixed target rather than the constantly moving one that is sales information.


So I've got something new to show. Last week I was talking about how it was hard to say what the state of a system's software was at any particular point in time, but how it would be possible with enough data gathering to do something to enable it. Well, I began to do so for PS3 and Wii, using a combination of Famitsu weekly data, other Famitsu-based data from places like Geimin.net, and other of the same as compiled by people like Moor-Angol and donny2112.

I've now got enough to make some use of it. One can do something like check PS3 software through its third week or Wii software as of Dragon Quest Swords's launch. Just modify the two arguments in the URL to try other combinations; that's all there is right now. Quite basic, but now that that much is working there's all sorts of possibilities (as well as a wealth of other data that could be gathered). Though first I think I will be double-checking that I didn't miss any data or make big typos.

 

[Christine]

It's the aiming cursor that's really adding to the experience, while the waggle is simply replacing buttons, or adding a bit of novelty.

Don't forget that the waggle is part of what makes the aiming cursor work. The remote collates accelerometer data with the data from the IR camera to provide the pointing cursor. You can examine how this works for yourself by quickly aiming above or below the screen and rotating the remote 180 degrees (so that the d-pad is on the bottom) before pointing back at the screen again, and you can watch the cursor return to its correct position as the motion sensors catch up to the new orientation and calibrate the pointer.

 

[DrLazy]

I'd also like to say the "buy a 360 if you want old school games" bit to be 100% schmuckery. Why can't we have/expect hardcore games on the best selling system in the world? Why should 3rd parties be afraid to make them?

Why would you perpetuate this by saying something like that? It's like you DON'T want those games? I want all kinds. But you can't in one breath tell me to go somewhere else if I want your typical console staple and then in the next breath tell me that 3rd parties aren't failing in this regard on the Wii.

Saying the 360 is a better fit for old school games is not "scmuckery." A vast amount of genres just don't work on the Wii.

Take fighting games. SSBM may work just okay (I'll likely use a gamecube controller), but a more tradtional fighter, from Virtual Fighter to Soul Callibur, uses a whole lot of buttons, something the Wii doesn't have.

How about RPGs or Driving sims? The Wii can certainly handle these games, but many of the best, from Final Fantasy to Forza, have been graphical power houses. Again, those games don't seem suited for the Wii.

If you think 3rd parties should create original, fleshed-out games on the Wii, I don't disagree. But I don't blame 3rd parties for "taking Nintendo's lead" and trying to create something new, even if that ends up coming out as a mini-game collection.
Taking current genres and tacking on motion controls just hasn't seemed to work.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Saying the 360 is a better fit for old school games is not "scmuckery." A vast amount of genres just don't work on the Wii.

Take fighting games. SSBM may work just okay (I'll likely use a gamecube controller), but a more tradtional fighter, from Virtual Fighter to Soul Callibur, uses a whole lot of buttons, something the Wii doesn't have.

How about RPGs or Driving sims? The Wii can certainly handle these games, but many of the best, from Final Fantasy to Forza, have been graphical power houses. Again, those games don't seem suited for the Wii.

If you think 3rd parties should create original, fleshed-out games on the Wii, I don't disagree. But I don't blame 3rd parties for "taking Nintendo's lead" and trying to create something new, even if that ends up coming out as a mini-game collection.
Taking current genres and tacking on motion controls just hasn't seemed to work.

Eh, I wouldn't put it past SE to give the Wii a mainline FF, built from the ground up for the Wii in mind.

And if it's different from past FFs, then more power to them. Some new gameplay or game interaction would be appreciated big time.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Saying the 360 is a better fit for old school games is not "scmuckery." A vast amount of genres just don't work on the Wii.

Take fighting games. SSBM may work just okay (I'll likely use a gamecube controller), but a more tradtional fighter, from Virtual Fighter to Soul Callibur, uses a whole lot of buttons, something the Wii doesn't have.

Other than movement, doesn't Virtua Fighter use 3 buttons, and Soul Calibur 4 buttons? Anyway, sure there are games made for an old paradigm that won't translate perfectly to Wii, though there are plenty of workarounds that could work to various extents. What would be interesting to see are things of the same genres developed with a very different set of capabilities and limits in mind from the genesis.


Personally, I've made something of a habit of considering how old games could map to the wiimote. I really need to get a PC bluetooth adapter and attempt some with emulators or something.

 

[PantherLotus]

Saying the 360 is a better fit for old school games is not "scmuckery." A vast amount of genres just don't work on the Wii.

Take fighting games. SSBM may work just okay (I'll likely use a gamecube controller), but a more tradtional fighter, from Virtual Fighter to Soul Callibur, uses a whole lot of buttons, something the Wii doesn't have.

How about RPGs or Driving sims? The Wii can certainly handle these games, but many of the best, from Final Fantasy to Forza, have been graphical power houses. Again, those games don't seem suited for the Wii.

If you think 3rd parties should create original, fleshed-out games on the Wii, I don't disagree. But I don't blame 3rd parties for "taking Nintendo's lead" and trying to create something new, even if that ends up coming out as a mini-game collection.
Taking current genres and tacking on motion controls just hasn't seemed to work.

You're part of the problem.

1. Controls for fighting games simply aren't that hard to figure out. It's been gone over many, many times.

2. Graphical Powerhouses. Uh...the Wii is capable of what the PS2 was able to put out. Why shouldn't we expect 3rd parties to produce the same quality of software? You suggesting that certain genres aren't fit for the wii because of it's "graphical" history is beyond ridiculous. The Wii is capable of FFXII. The Wii is capable of GTIV. The Wii is capable of DQVIII. The Wii is capable of Command & Conquer. The Wii is capable of GTAVC. Why does its comparison to other current hardware limit what 3rd parties can do with it? If you give me the 'it's harder to port' bs then you're capacity for understanding business is colored by some weird bias I can't figure out. There is no reason -- at this point in the generation -- that 3rd parties don't have full fledged games in the works that don't include mini games, party games, or otherwise.

3. If 3rd parties continue thinking like you do, there will be fewer of them at the end of this generation. They simply cannot compete with Nintendo by playing the same game (pun intended). They MUST continue to put out real software, real stand alone products, real sequels to real games. They can't assume that the only audience on the Wii is the one that bought it for WiiSports.

4. All of the above will happen regardless of what any of us want. The market leaders always get the best and most games. Perhaps it will take longer this generation, or perhaps we're a bit antsy because we're watching it closer than the last set of generations, but it WILL happen. It's beyond our control, it's beyond even their control. When their board of directors says, "You know, the Wii has a 2.5 million unit lead on the nearest competitor, why are we only going after one audience on this thing? Maybe we can find somebody that will?" I think we'll start to see some stuffl

5. Money money money.

 

[Dahbomb]

The PS3 woes never cease.

 

[D.Lo]

Saying the 360 is a better fit for old school games is not "scmuckery." A vast amount of genres just don't work on the Wii.

I like how 'old school games' now refers to genres that were invented within the last five years (like Devil may Cry, RE4). Old school used to mean 2D shooters, 2D fighters etc, not 'FPS with auto-recharging health mechanic'.

I suggest the term 'middle school' for these genres.

 

[Pureauthor]

How about RPGs or Driving sims? The Wii can certainly handle these games, but many of the best, from Final Fantasy to Forza, have been graphical power houses. Again, those games don't seem suited for the Wii.

Wait, what? The vast majority of jRPGs are not graphical powerhouses, nor have they ever aspired to be such.

 

[Lobster]

Wait, what? The vast majority of jRPGs are not graphical powerhouses, nor have they ever aspired to be such.

People tend to not realise that what they actually mean is art..

 

[Jokeropia]

The games that have sold well, such as Carnival Games, Mario Party, Rayman Raving Rabbids and Wii Play are exactly the type of "cute tech demos" games you seem to distaste. The public disagrees. So do I.

Other games that have sold well include Zelda, Red Steel, Metroid Prime 3 and Resident Evil 4. How does that fit with your argument?

People were saying the same thing a year ago, and now the Wii is flooded with Mini Games and Shovelware.

Every successful system is flooded with shovelware. It doesn't prevent the great games from being released. (From a third party perspective 2008 is looking like the best year by far.)

It's not the same business, it was an easy transition with gameboy to DS as the DS allows traditional games and there wasn't much competition as the PSP came in late with its pants down. With consoles, there are 3 other contenders which weren't present with handhelds.

Actually, PSP provided much more competition to the DS (initially at least) than PS3 & 360 could dream to provide to Wii.

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

Did anyone post this?

Begins!

If Nintendo is starting to commercialise Wii Fit a month before it ships, and if they do a good Job, it could really become a big seller.

They should have done the same with Mario Galaxy...

The DS is a great system that many people enjoy not just for the new twists its innovations bring in games, but also because it has a strong, diverse library full of new types of games and traditional games alike. The Wii ought to be the same.

Agreed. There is time. remember that even DS had big difficulties the first year. We will see. I'm not neither pessimistic or optimistic.

I got hardware right in both heh...lets see next week...


Oh, I have some interesting info. Cue in DENGEKI NUMBERS...

Super Mario Galaxy- 257.000 (45% sell through - which translates into around 570.000 units shipped)
Ace Combat 6 - 73.000 (75% sell through - 97.000 shipped)


And now cue in FAMITSU FIRST DAY NUMBERS...

NDS Mario Party DS - 90.000 (<20% sell through, 500k shipment)
PSP Akumajou Dracula X Chronicles - 8.000 (20k shipment)
PS2 NBA Live 08 - 4.000
NDS Yosumin DS - 2.000 (10% sell through, 20k shipment)
PSP NBA Live 08 - <1.000
360 NBA Live 08 - even worse, can't be counted

Mario Party's success was almost sure, after Mario Party 8 performance. Mario Galaxy figures are still neither good or bad. Simply disappointing. Next week it will be critic, because it has to sell more then 100k. Otherwise it is a bomb.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

Actually, I think some of the best game so far for wii are basicly traditional games, using waggle to make up for the lack of face buttons, and heavy use of the aiming cursor.

It seems that the aiming cursor is really more revolutionary and useful for game design than the motion control, at least for traditional games, The best thing about waggle is that it allows them to free up buttons. which is great because there are so few buttons on the wii.

Examples include mario galaxy, zelda TP, Zack and wiki, metroid prime 3, and RE4 port.

It's the aiming cursor that's really adding to the experience, while the waggle is simply replacing buttons, or adding a bit of novelty. I expect other developers to pick up on this trend and start designing more games around it. Unlike the waggle, the cursor is immediate, and precise and very reliable at all times. It also allows you to greatly extend the kinds of games you can make for wii. It absolutley can't be mimicked on any of the other consoles.

The one other thing that's really precise is the the tilt functionality, although it's apparently somewhat hard to tune (since all games don't get it right). Games like Korinpa(SP?) demonstrate that it's totally precise when tuned correctly.

In most games I've played, the gesture recognition aspect has has always been a little bit questionable. The more complicated the gesture, the more questionable it is. A simple shake works well, but when the motions get complex, it stops being reliable. A few exceptions would be wii sports (bowling and tennis) and godfather, which can be a bit rough around the edges, but is funner because of the waggle.

Even in godfathers case, the waggle is replacing button presses and adding novelty to the experience, not really extending the gameplay.

edit// and another thing...

The other things that's working well for the wii is the reduction in the number of face buttons and the missing analog stick. It seems strange that the lack of something would add to a game, but it's causing some games to focus hard on making better camera's and trimming the fat from their design..

Examples include mario galaxy's camera (apparently the best in any 3d mario), which would not have been as big a focus if there was another analog stick, and the stacking beam weapons in prime 3, which streamlined the experience a little bit.

I`m sorry but I can`t agree with this. WWSM would`ve been nothing without it`s motion controls, indeed the pointer games weren`t nearly as fun as the motion controlled ones. Zack & Wiki uses both really well, the game would`ve been impossible without motion controls.

The problem is that good motion controls are much harder to pull off than pointer controls, that`s why gestures and shakes are usually used to replace button presses, it`s just much easier to do than proper motion controls.

 

[Jirotrom]

it fucking happened, the 360 actually passed the PS3, Japan not biased confirmed. They just want good games.

 

[Jirotrom]

&#31665;&#9675;&#22987;&#12414;&#12387;&#12383;&#12394;&#65281; :lol :lol

Now on to 2ch to see the GK meltdowns!

edit: From 2ch: :lol

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&#9474; &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288;&#65372;&#65372;&#12288;
&#9474; &#12288;&#12288;&#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288;&#65372;&#65372;&#12288;
&#9474;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#9484;&#9488;&#12288;.&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;
&#9474;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288;&#65288; &#65439;&#8704;&#65439;&#65289; &#65308;Ooh! Wii sales are falling&#65281;
&#9474;&#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#65372;&#65372;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;&#12288;I'm going to win if things go like this&#65281;
&#9474;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288; &#9484;&#9488;&#12288;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;
&#9474;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;(&#12539;&#969;&#12539&#12288;&#65372;&#65372;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;
&#9492;&#9472;&#9472;&#9472;&#9524;&#9524;&#9472;&#9472;&#9524;&#9524;&#9472;&#9472;&#9472;&#9524;&#9524;&#9472;&#9472;
&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;360&#12288;&#12288; PS3&#12288;&#12288;Wii

&#65372; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288;&#65372;&#65372;
&#65372; &#12288; &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;&#12288; &#12288; &#12288;&#65372;&#65372;
&#9474; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288;&#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#65372;&#65372;
&#9474; &#12288; &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288; &#12288; &#12288; &#12288;&#65372;&#65372;&#12288;
&#9474; &#12288;&#9484;&#9488;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#65372;&#65372;&#12288;
&#9474;&#12288;(&#12539;&#969;&#12539 &#9484;&#9488; &#12288;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;
&#9474;&#12288;&#65372;&#65372; &#12288;&#65288;&#1076;&#65439; &#65289;.&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;
&#9474;&#12288;&#65372;&#65372;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;&#12288;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;&#12288;
&#9474;&#12288;&#65372;&#65372;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;&#12288;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;
&#9474;&#12288;&#65372;&#65372;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;&#12288;&#12288; &#65372;&#65372;
&#9492;&#9472;&#9524;&#9524;&#9472;&#9472;&#9524;&#9524;&#9472;&#9472;&#9472;&#9524;&#9524;&#9472;&#9472;
&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;360&#12288;&#12288; PS3&#12288;&#12288;Wii

I'm gonna be honest, I dont get this shit.

 

[test_account]

I'm gonna be honest, I dont get this shit.

The hight of the columns represent the salenumbers. Wii sales was going a bit down and the PS3 is saying "Ooh! Wii sales are falling&#65281;I'm going to win if things go like this !". Then suddently 360 outsells it, Wii sales goes up and PS3 sales goes a bit down. The opposite of what the PS3 thought would happend hehe.

 

[Satter]

Am I the only one who thinks that for the sake of videogaming this one needs to bomb?

If you think this needs to bomb then all peripherals should, including the ones used in Guitar Hero.

 

[Jirotrom]

The hight of the columns represent the salenumbers. Wii sales was going a bit down and the PS3 is saying "Ooh! Wii sales are falling&#65281;I'm going to win if things go like this !". Then suddently 360 outsells it, Wii sales goes up and PS3 sales goes a bit down. The opposite of what the PS3 thought would happend hehe.

ahh... thank you for the explanation. I don't even know what all this 2-chan 4-chan talk is.

 

[test_account]

No problem I assume that 2chan and 4chan are some kinda forums. I havnt really checked into it myself.

 

[ethelred]

Am I the only one who thinks that for the sake of videogaming this one needs to bomb?

If you think this needs to bomb then all peripherals should, including the ones used in Guitar Hero.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

 

[Moor-Angol]

ahh... thank you for the explanation. I don't even know what all this 2-chan 4-chan talk is.

basically it's a place worst than sales-age here :lol

 

[Eteric Rice]

No problem I assume that 2chan and 4chan are some kinda forums. I havnt really checked into it myself.

And you don't want to.

 

[Satter]

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Everything has potential. And just seeing the WiiFit Board, or any peripheral for that matter, as only having one use, or only being able to appeal to one type of consumer, is poor judgement IMO.

 

[Magic Mile]

I like how 'old school games' now refers to genres that were invented within the last five years (like Devil may Cry, RE4). Old school used to mean 2D shooters, 2D fighters etc, not 'FPS with auto-recharging health mechanic'.

I suggest the term 'middle school' for these genres.

Agreed, just like I hate how people refer to "traditional games" as games with a deep story, cutscenes, lots of dialogue, cinematics, great graphics, etc.

Traditional games had none of that, and by traditional I mean Atari games, NES games, etc.

GAF's definition of traditional games fits the bill of PS2 generation games.

 

[Amir0x]

Why would you think Ami's going to drop the hammer?

That's what I want to know! I rarely patrol these sales threads, you're more likely to get it from Dragona or sp0rsk.

Although... I don't see what would be so wrong with that post as to warrant a ban. Except paragraph structure!

 

[Orlics]

2ch = Japanese text-only message board, incredibly popular over there.
2chan = Japanese image board, less popular.
4chan = American spin-off of 2chan.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

OK, an addition to what I did last night. Now it's possible to view an individual game's sales information. Still pretty basic, but from that data could be made various calculations or graph images or whatever eventually. Anyway, as an example of something interesting noticed, if we compare the Wii sales of DBZ BT2 and DBZ BT3, they're not as different as I thought; at least by Famitsu's reckoning. BT2 had some pretty huge legs, and we haven't yet had a far-out update of BT3 to see if it's passed where BT2 was at the same time. I believe the Media Create difference was bigger, but I haven't touched MC or Dengeki data for these purposes yet.

To view those individual game pages, though, you need to know the GameID, which is just an arbitrary key used to connect tables rather than repeating the full name everywhere. To get the ID check out this list, which orders the games currently up by platform and release date. The Game ID is on the left, and links to the individual pages. You might notice some goofiness with the data; missing launch prices, some ?s in the Japanese titles which seem to be the result of some conversion problem, maybe an English title that should be written a different way... but hey, it's all easily modifiable if/when the right stuff comes along.

 

[DrLazy]

You're part of the problem.

1. Controls for fighting games simply aren't that hard to figure out. It's been gone over many, many times.

2. Graphical Powerhouses. Uh...the Wii is capable of what the PS2 was able to put out. Why shouldn't we expect 3rd parties to produce the same quality of software? You suggesting that certain genres aren't fit for the wii because of it's "graphical" history is beyond ridiculous. The Wii is capable of FFXII. The Wii is capable of GTIV. The Wii is capable of DQVIII. The Wii is capable of Command & Conquer. The Wii is capable of GTAVC. Why does its comparison to other current hardware limit what 3rd parties can do with it? If you give me the 'it's harder to port' bs then you're capacity for understanding business is colored by some weird bias I can't figure out. There is no reason -- at this point in the generation -- that 3rd parties don't have full fledged games in the works that don't include mini games, party games, or otherwise.

3. If 3rd parties continue thinking like you do, there will be fewer of them at the end of this generation. They simply cannot compete with Nintendo by playing the same game (pun intended). They MUST continue to put out real software, real stand alone products, real sequels to real games. They can't assume that the only audience on the Wii is the one that bought it for WiiSports.

4. All of the above will happen regardless of what any of us want. The market leaders always get the best and most games. Perhaps it will take longer this generation, or perhaps we're a bit antsy because we're watching it closer than the last set of generations, but it WILL happen. It's beyond our control, it's beyond even their control. When their board of directors says, "You know, the Wii has a 2.5 million unit lead on the nearest competitor, why are we only going after one audience on this thing? Maybe we can find somebody that will?" I think we'll start to see some stuffl

5. Money money money.

I disagree.

1. I've played fighting games on the Wii. It isn't as easy to map out buttons as you think. Especially using the z trigger or the + and - buttons don't work as consistant buttons. That leaves you with three buttons - punch, kick and block. But what about grappling? What about sidestepping? What if there is a jump button? A button used to power up your weapon? A button used to change fighting styles?

A game like DBZ tries to do something new and bring motion controls in. You mentioned this as a bad example. I like the game, and I think its moving in a cool new direction.

2. So we should have more PS2-like games on Wii? If I'm a developer I could make a PS2 level game on Wii, or I could use the extra firepower available on the other consoles, which would I choose? Lets not forget that some companies are doing what you suggest, and bringing over everything from Bully to Ping Pong to Godfather to the Wii. That's not what I'm looking for in a Wii game -- something that can be done on the PS2.

I'd rather have 3rd parties "follow Nintendo's lead" and do something new.

345. I think you don't give 3rd parties enough credit judging the situation. Like has been mentioned in other threads, a 3rd party has the choice of making both an 360 and PS3 game or a Wii game. The combined userbase of those systems is still fairly substantial. It also has several advantages: Not competing with Nintendo's games, better online support (no small thing when talking about First Person Shooters), more buttons and better graphics. The Wii has the advantage of a higher userbase, lower development costs and the ability to use motion controls.

I'm sure Wii will get a lot of support this generation. But it won't be as clear cut as 80 percent of 3rd parties supporting the "market leader." 3rd parties still make a lot of money on the 360 with traditional games. You're wrong to think there wuill be "less of them" unles they immediatly drop their profitable support of the system to create Grand Theft Auto Vice City 2 on the Wii.

 

[Eteric Rice]

I disagree.

1. I've played fighting games on the Wii. It isn't as easy to map out buttons as you think. Especially using the z trigger or the + and - buttons don't work as consistant buttons. That leaves you with three buttons - punch, kick and block. But what about grappling? What about sidestepping? What if there is a jump button? A button used to power up your weapon? A button used to change fighting styles?

A game like DBZ tries to do something new and bring motion controls in. You mentioned this as a bad example. I like the game, and I think its moving in a cool new direction.

2. So we have should more PS2-like games on Wii? If I'm a developer I could make a PS2 level game on Wii, or I could use the extra firepower available on the other consoles, which would I choose? Lets not forget that some companies are doing what you suggest, and bringing over everything from Bully to Ping Pong to Godfather to the Wii. That's not what I'm looking for in a Wii game -- something that can be done on the PS2.

I'd rather have 3rd parties "follow Nintendo's lead" and do something new.

345. I think you don't give 3rd parties enough credit judging the situation. Like has been mentioned in other threads, a 3rd party has the choice of making both an 360 and PS3 game or a Wii game. The combined userbase of those systems is still fairly substantial. It also has several advantages: Not competing with Nintendo's games, better online support (no small thing when talking about First Person Shooters), more buttons and better graphics. The Wii has the advantage of a higher userbase, lower development costs and the ability to use motion controls.

I'm sure Wii will get a lot of support this generation. But it won't be as clear cut as 80 percent of 3rd parties supporting the "market leader." 3rd parties still make a lot of money on the 360 with traditional games. You're wrong to think there wuill be "less of them" unles they immediatly drop their profitable support of the system to create Grand Theft Auto Vice City 2 on the Wii.

You are still part of the problem.

And eventually, they will support the market leader. That's how this works. That's not to say they won't make 360 games anymore, but in a year or two you can bet the Wii will have the biggest share of third party support.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

You are still part of the problem.

And eventually, they will support the market leader. That's how this works. That's not to say they won't make 360 games anymore, but in a year or two you can bet the Wii will have the biggest share of third party support.

I didn't notice until now how fitting is your avatar to your posts...

 

[Wyndstryker]

No problem I assume that 2chan and 4chan are some kinda forums. I havnt really checked into it myself.

Don't.

they make ghettos look like heaven.

 

[The Innocent X]

You are still part of the problem.
.

And what is the problem, the fact that some people have some reservations about the Wii being the saviour of gaming?