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Why spend money creating a userbase when Nintendo has already created one for you? A userbase that continues to grow more rapidly than any console before it.

Third parties could make A+ games using one third the money in one third the time, and probably make a bigger profit margin.

You don't need to smoke anything, it's just common sense.

True what you say, but it doesnt matter how big or small the userbase is if you cant sell well on it. The Wii userbase is somewhat 3 times bigger than the PS3 userbase, but 3rd parties arent doing much better on Wii compared to PS3. In the future the bigger userbase on Wii might be a huge advantage for 3rd parties though, but its impossible to say for sure at this moment. We'll see what happends

True again, its cheaper to develope for Wii (well.. it totally depends on the game of course, you can probly make cheap games (as in cheap development costs) for PS3 as wellm, not every PS3 game cost 10-20 million dollars to develope) and there might be a bigger chance to make more profit because of this, but i cant help to think of why doesnt everyone develope for Wii then? The same goes for DS, there it is even cheaper develope costs (most likely atleast), so wouldnt it be ideal for everyone to make games only for the DS? There must be a reason for why developers choose PS3 and 360 as well (dont say moneyhats hehe In some cases it might be moneyhats, but i doubt its that in every case).

Eventho gaming is much about making money i dont think this is the only thing the developers have in mind. It wouldnt be fun to make the games if profit was the only thing that it was focus on. I think one of the reasons why developers choose their platform is because of the potential of the hardware. I.e stuff that isnt possible to make on the Wii due to weaker hardware, or stuff that isnt possible to make on the PS3 and 360 due to weaker/none motion controls. Some games simply fits systems better than others. Gears of War would doubtful be as big if it wasnt for the great gfx and Wii Sports wouldnt be so great if it wasnt for the motion controls. And due to this a game has a bigger chance to sell well even if the competing systems got a bigger userbase or are cheaper to buy.

They have to think of the profit too of course, but i think that every developer belive that their game will sell great (or atleast be profitable) on the system(s) they choose, even if the develope costs are higher on some systems (naturally they most have some hopes or else they wouldnt make them in the first place but i guess you understand my point?). Else it would be logical that they would just pick the system that got the cheapest development costs and stick to that system.

 

[Rancid Mildew]

That's an incredibly true and well written post. However I think, more often than not, profit does trump creative vision when the vision can only be realized on a flaming sales failure of a console like the PS3.

edit: It's not just the overall sales flop of the PS3 in both hardware and software. The Wii isn't exactly selling games either so there is a hesitancy to place big projects on consoles in general. There are many games on the DS/PSP that would be more creatively realized on a home console because of the extra power, audio capabilities etc.

 

[AdmiralViscen]

Honestly, I'm not sure if "going down in flames" is such a great philosophy.

Listen dude, it's expensive. It has Blu Ray okay?!!?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Josh: can you double check again? It definitely charted, with numbers, in its second week. I remember.

Links to the original Famitsu.com lists:
Week of 2004-03-08 There it is at #4.
Week of 2004-03-15 No Xbox titles listed.

 

[ethelred]

Links to the original Famitsu.com lists:
Week of 2004-03-08 There it is at #4.
Week of 2004-03-15 No Xbox titles listed.

I'll take a look at my notes when I get home.

 

[kenta]

I just want to say that as a hardcasual Gran Turismo fan I'm glad GT5P bombed. I needed to get that off my chest

 

[apujanata]

3rd parties support the Wonderswan (and also Game Gear etc) and help grow the userbase, they create a platform where they'll get better sales, you don't to smoke anything, its just common sense

Fixed. Will you never learn, Link316 ? You still keep your Anti-Nintendo bias after all 6 years.

 

[Arde5643]

Fixed. Will you never learn, Link316 ? You still keep your Anti-Nintendo bias after all 6 years.

I think he's just trying to be fair and balanced against thinking, rationale, logics, facts, and truths.
We definitely can't let facts or thinking get away as opposed to gut feelings and flat-out fanaticism, right?

He definitely deserves credit to be so consistent in his part as the anti-thinking poster here.

 

[Dragon]

Everyone on this site knows why PS3 is performing how it is. Must we preface every single post with "Boy, the PS3 pricing sure was retarded!"? It's taken as a given, it's been accepted since May 2006, it doesn't need to be reiterated over and over again.

What's left to do is to look at the RAMIFICATIONS of that price point, which is the present and future of PS3.

Fuck.

Everyone on the site knows that the PS3 is tracking behind the GCN also. Must there be a post in every MC thread saying it? It's been like this since right after it came out. It doesn't need to be reiterated over and over again.

 

[donny2112]

Josh: NG1 charted in its second week, too, in Fami's top 30. It did around 7k, offhand.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Ninja Gaiden Black? It was at 7K by the end of 2005.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

its obvious that publishers aren't going to ignore the PS3. it has a different philosophy of games behind it than Wii does, obviously.

Sadly the problem with that train of thought... the Wii is selling more games of that "philosophy" then the PS3 is.

In Japan and America that is.

 

[Sage00]

Sadly the problem with that train of thought... the Wii is selling more games of that "philosophy" then the PS3 is.

In Japan and America that is.

Eh? Sure about that..?

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

You guys have given up on the Wii as the unmistakeable leader in software? It still needs to get thru the first 18 months. It will be very weird/unusual to see the Wii dominate hardware w/o a similar takeover of software. I expect the tipping point in about 6 months. 3rd parties will have to find some success with the Wii. We are still only 6-9 months from the realization that Wii took over and will be number one.

 

[EDarkness]

Well, I meant that I see developers moving onto the PS3 over the Wii, regardless of performance. I think they'll do everything in their power to have the PS3 succeed so they don't have to develop for the Wii.

Sad to say, but I've been hearing this in the developer grapevine in recent weeks. There's a lot of Wii hate out there for some reason. I'll be real surprised if we start seeing big game announcements for the Wii that aren't Nintendo.

 

[Jokeropia]

Looking at the software sales pie it seems obvious to me that the market exists on the DS and the Wii, and it's up to the developers to appeal to that market. Might not be that easy for some but this is a volatile business where adaptability is important.

Eh? Sure about that..?

I don't know what the definition of "that philosophy" is, but Wii is selling much more games than PS3 on every market.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Sad to say, but I've been hearing this in the developer grapevine in recent weeks. There's a lot of Wii hate out there for some reason. I'll be real surprised if we start seeing big game announcements for the Wii that aren't Nintendo.

You're a dev? Can you tell us more?

And that sucks. Are these American devs, or Japanese devs?

 

[donny2112]

Are these American devs, or Japanese devs?

If they're Japanese devs, they better be targeting western markets, or they're risking their company to ignore the DS and Wii.

 

[ethelred]

Are you sure you're not thinking of Ninja Gaiden Black? It was at 7K by the end of 2005.

I was thinking of Sigma, which charted twice and did 12k in its second week before vanishing.

 

[jessmo24]

1. Wii thirds party sales are greater than ps3 in every area

GH3 wii> GHps3
Re4 wii 1 mill
ray man 1 mill
carnival games 300-400K
Gh3 wii soon to be 1 mill
Red steel 1 mill

How many ps3 third party games have sold a million?

2. This is a word of mouth fallacy designed to undermine wii support.

3. You cannot show me 1 single 9.0 + wii games that was marketed properly but didnt burn up the charts

4. There si no proof whatsoever that wii games dont sell.

 

[Deku]

1. Wii thirds party sales are greater than ps3 in every area

GH3 wii> GHps3
Re4 wii 1 mill
ray man 1 mill
carnival games 300-400K
Gh3 wii soon to be 1 mill
Red steel 1 mill

How many ps3 third party games have sold a million?

2. This is a word of mouth fallacy designed to undermine wii support.

3. You cannot show me 1 single 9.0 + wii games that was marketed properly but didnt burn up the charts

Well the standard isn't very high is it.

4. There si no proof whatsoever that wii games dont sell.

The sensible ones are saying the platform is very strange and hits seem to happen out of the blue and there's been many more misses for a userbase the size of the Wii.

 

[EDarkness]

You're a dev? Can you tell us more?

And that sucks. Are these American devs, or Japanese devs?

I dabble in Indie Development and also have quite a few friends in the industry both US and Japanese. Many different opinions about the Wii, but from what I've been told the Wii doesn't get much respect even though it's tops in the market. Of course, a lot of this information I get second hand, but that much has stayed consistent over the past six months. My general impression is that there is a lot of confusion about what to do and what devs and publishers want are different things. Many companies seem to be banking on 360/PS3 support for the hopes of selling well in the west.

I have my own theories about why this is, but I won't get into that as not to derail the thread further.

 

[Eteric Rice]

I dabble in Indie Development and also have quite a few friends in the industry both US and Japanese. Many different opinions about the Wii, but from what I've been told the Wii doesn't get much respect even though it's tops in the market. Of course, a lot of this information I get second hand, but that much has stayed consistent over the past six months. My general impression is that there is a lot of confusion about what to do and what devs and publishers want are different things. Many companies seem to be banking on 360/PS3 support for the hopes of selling well in the west.

I have my own theories about why this is, but I won't get into that as not to derail the thread further.

Well, hopefully they don't ignore it. That would be a pretty sad thing.

Seems Nintendo can't catch a break.

I bought the Wii for Japanese games anyway, so hopefully Japan is a bit different.

 

[liuelson]

The sensible ones are saying the platform is very strange and hits seem to happen out of the blue and there's been many more misses for a userbase the size of the Wii.

Not quite. 3rd parties may be struggling to "predict" hits. But Nintendo seems to know the right formula - ranging from "traditional" games like MP3 and SMG and Strikers to "non-traditional" games like Wii Sports, WarioWare, BBA, and Wii Fit. Not all of those successes can be attributed to Mario.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

You guys have given up on the Wii as the unmistakeable leader in software? It still needs to get thru the first 18 months. It will be very weird/unusual to see the Wii dominate hardware w/o a similar takeover of software. I expect the tipping point in about 6 months. 3rd parties will have to find some success with the Wii. We are still only 6-9 months from the realization that Wii took over and will be number one.

I doubt it very seriously. I think that third party software will basically under perform for the duration.

 

[Arde5643]

I dabble in Indie Development and also have quite a few friends in the industry both US and Japanese. Many different opinions about the Wii, but from what I've been told the Wii doesn't get much respect even though it's tops in the market. Of course, a lot of this information I get second hand, but that much has stayed consistent over the past six months. My general impression is that there is a lot of confusion about what to do and what devs and publishers want are different things. Many companies seem to be banking on 360/PS3 support for the hopes of selling well in the west.

I have my own theories about why this is, but I won't get into that as not to derail the thread further.

Might as well dabble with us regarding that theory - I don't think many of us are discussing the actual sales anymore and are more in discussion regarding the state of 3rd parties in general.

 

[Eteric Rice]

I doubt it very seriously. I think that third party software will basically under perform for the duration.

With a userbase growing that rapidly, I seriously doubt it.

 

[Sage00]

With a userbase growing that rapidly, I seriously doubt it.

Are the type of gamers buying Wii because of Wii Fit really that different from those who bought it for Wii Sports and Wii Play? The people who seemingly don't buy third party games..

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Are the type of gamers buying Wii because of Wii Fit really that different from those who bought it for Wii Sports and Wii Play? The people who seemingly don't buy third party games..

They buy the games with a Nintendo logo on them.

 

[_Alkaline_]

Personally I want to see a developer take a risk and put an entry of a AAA series on Wii, and make it exclusive.

If that game was to fail, then the opinion that 3rd party games don't sell on Wii would have a lot more credibility.

For now, I attribute low sales to not only a lack of marketing, but more significantly, to the fact that most of them are just pretty much rubbish.

Monster Hunter 3 should give us a solid indication.

 

[Sage00]

Personally I want to see a developer take a risk and put an entry of a AAA series on Wii, and make it exclusive.

If that game was to fail, then the opinion that 3rd party games don't sell on Wii would have a lot more credibility.

For now, I attribute low sales to not only a lack of marketing, but more significantly, to the fact that most of them are just pretty much rubbish.

Monster Hunter 3 should give us a solid indication.

I don't think that's actually a good indication. AAA titles can sell well on ANY platform. I mean, Monster Hunter sold crazy numbers on the PSP of all platforms. :lol

The performance of mid-range titles should really be the deal breaker here.

 

[Eteric Rice]

I don't think that's actually a good indication. AAA titles can sell well on ANY platform. I mean, Monster Hunter sold crazy numbers on the PSP of all platforms. :lol

The performance of mid-range titles should really be the deal breaker here.

So basically, we have to rely on what is mostly shit to sell?

We're fucked.

 

[EDarkness]

So basically, we have to rely on what is mostly shit to sell?

We're fucked.

Basically. All the more reason why people have to have multiple consoles these days.

 

[KINGMOKU]

Sad to say, but I've been hearing this in the developer grapevine in recent weeks. There's a lot of Wii hate out there for some reason. I'll be real surprised if we start seeing big game announcements for the Wii that aren't Nintendo.

Easy solution.

Make games for the Wii, the ones we want, or you dont get to make games for the DS.

Pull the kids allowance. It works everytime.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Anyone have info on how PS2 software was performing in its first year to compare with Wii?

 

[Minsc]

Is there any reason to be expecting any system's hardware sales to decrease for the week of 12/24 compared to this week's numbers?

Personally I want to see a developer take a risk and put an entry of a AAA series on Wii, and make it exclusive.

If that game was to fail, then the opinion that 3rd party games don't sell on Wii would have a lot more credibility.

For now, I attribute low sales to not only a lack of marketing, but more significantly, to the fact that most of them are just pretty much rubbish.

Monster Hunter 3 should give us a solid indication.

Maybe Capcom will humor the Wii with an original non-lightgun RE title in 2008, it would make the most sense to release it prior to RE5, maybe even call it RE6 for kicks. Who knows, they could have saved the work they did on the RE title before they scrapped it for RE:UC.

It's too bad Square thinks the Wii is like a one-trick toy, they'd be a good developer to throw a AAA title to it. A new Parasite Eve would be fun, or maybe with Sonic & Mario's recent success, SEGA will feel adventurous and flex it's AAA muscles.

 

[EDarkness]

Anyone have info on how PS2 software was performing in its first year to compare with Wii?

I think someone posted a list in the last Media Create thread. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Heh, heh. Someone already has it covered.

 

[toxk_02]

Anyone have info on how PS2 software was performing in its first year to compare with Wii?

PS2: http://joshuajamesslone.name/gamecharting/testsoftware.php?platform=ps2&weeknum=55

Wii: http://joshuajamesslone.name/gamecharting/testsoftware.php?platform=wii&weeknum=55

 

[Arde5643]

It's too bad Square thinks the Wii is like a one-trick toy, they'd be a good developer to throw a AAA title to it. A new Parasite Eve would be fun, or maybe with Sonic & Mario's recent success, SEGA will feel adventurous and flex it's AAA muscles.

SEGA should've done that with Nights - give it a little more time.

The game's definitely has some charm and attempt to rekindle the old flame - the rough edges around the game though, oh boy.
And I'm not talking about the graphics.

 

[justchris]

Everyone on the site knows that the PS3 is tracking behind the GCN also. Must there be a post in every MC thread saying it? It's been like this since right after it came out. It doesn't need to be reiterated over and over again.

Actually yes, yes it is. Sure, everyone knows the PS3 is tracking behind the GCN (actually, not everyone, but everyone who matters), but while I can't speak for everyone, I think most people expect the PS3 to bypass the GCN at some point. We're not just saying, 'the PS3 is doing worse than the GCN' and leaving it at that. We're determining how far behind it is, why it's doing worse, and discussing at what point we think it will diverge seriously from the downward trend and pick up the pace. It's important to keep track of where it is in relation to the GCN to determine when, or if, this will ever happen.

And if you have nothing to add to the discussion other than, "Why do we have to keep talking about stuff everybody already knows," then you don't understand the discussion in the first place.

 

[donny2112]

Is there any reason to be expecting any system's hardware sales to decrease for the week of 12/24 compared to this week's numbers?

Typically, every system sees a decrease the week of Christmas and then a rebound the following week. The week this thread covers should be the highest hardware week of the year.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Personally I want to see a developer take a risk and put an entry of a AAA series on Wii, and make it exclusive.

we got that with SSX in the form of Blue early on and it sold like crap. They were the first to do something like that IIRC

 

[Deku]

Not quite. 3rd parties may be struggling to "predict" hits. But Nintendo seems to know the right formula - ranging from "traditional" games like MP3 and SMG and Strikers to "non-traditional" games like Wii Sports, WarioWare, BBA, and Wii Fit. Not all of those successes can be attributed to Mario.

Forever Blue - bomba
Battalion Wars 2 - bomba

They know their hardware and can cross promote their games easily. Stuff like WarioWare are established franchises.

Nintendo's had a lot of difficulty with new IPs outside of their very unconventional edutainment/lifestyle line of software. That's not to say they're clueless. They know better than most which software will sell and they're still out there taking risks.

People do fail to consider that its dysfuntional to only release hits after hits because that usual means its sequels or known quantities. There needs to be experimentation on a platform for it to be 'healthy'. I don't mind seeing a quirky game or something out of the blue coming out and failing. That's part of the business and its why the DS is so awesome right now. Experiements like Game Center CX is something no one could have dreamed up if they followed the big budget, lots of explosions, emo hero formula that's popular today.

The concern is that 3rd parties are failing more than succeeding.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Endless Ocean - bomba
Battalion Wars 2 - bomba

They know their hardware and can cross promote their games easily. Stuff like WarioWare are established franchises.

Nintendo's had a lot of difficulty with new IPs outside of their very unconventional edutainment/lifestyle line of software.

Advance Wars 2: Days of Ruin will be a massive failure (in Japan).

In the USA it will do really well through word of mouth, but it wont hit the sales of the other Nintendo franchises.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Forever Blue - bomba

Forever Blue is the third game in a series by a tiny independent developer and did substantially better than the first two despite a massive game-breaking bug that required a recall.

Can we please let LanceStern stay banned instead of invoking the ghost of "IF IT DON'T SELL X IT DON'T COUNT" in every single sales thread? Whether a game bombs or not is entirely contingent on its pedigree, estimated development cost, and publisher expectations. It's one thing if we don't know these three things, but we do know them for Forever Blue. In turn, they are "virtually none" (as evidenced by the fact that the LTD of the first two installments is <20k), "virtually nothing" (as evidenced by the tiny size of Arika), and "virtually no expectations" (as evidenced by the miniscule shipment size and the first two categories)

 

[Sharp]

we got that with SSX in the form of Blue early on and it sold like crap. They were the first to do something like that IIRC

Blur recently resurfaced having done decently, though, which was surprising. It apparently had legs or something? Probably massively discounted, but either way it's a shame it didn't sell more, because it was really a very good game.

 

[schuelma]

we got that with SSX in the form of Blue early on and it sold like crap. They were the first to do something like that IIRC

SSX Blur was a AAA game?

 

[legend166]

I really enjoyed Blur, but it can in no way be called a AAA game, or hell, even an A game, when it's really a glorified best-of.

 

[EDarkness]

Blur recently resurfaced having done decently, though, which was surprising. It apparently had legs or something? Probably massively discounted, but either way it's a shame it didn't sell more, because it was really a very good game.

I don't consider SSX: Blur a big budget exclusive. It was missing so much stuff from the previous games. Don't get me wrong, I loved it and though the control scheme was great, but having played the other games, I wish EA would have added more to it.

 

[Deku]

Blur recently resurfaced having done decently, though, which was surprising. It apparently had legs or something? Probably massively discounted, but either way it's a shame it didn't sell more, because it was really a very good game.

A lot of EA games actually perform like that. They sit on shelves forever and they sell.

The Sims 2 ( circa 2005) had a staggering LTD of 400k as of fall 2007, it was at 250k in 2006.
You can see how it picked up sales in over two years.

I don't consider SSX: Blur a big budget exclusive. It was missing so much stuff from the previous games. Don't get me wrong, I loved it and though the control scheme was great, but having played the other games, I wish EA would have added more to it.

EA can make money from a Nintendo platform if their recent financials is any indication. Once they shifted focus out of PSP, their revenues on the DS increased exponentially.

I think the larger point isn't where XYZ game is a big budget flop or not, but whether the tentative efforts of 3rd parties is succeeding or not, and mostly, they are failing.

On the upside however there hasn't been a big 3rd party flop yet. While there have been numerous titles that have done poorly on the PS3.
Treasure Hunter Z's failure is not a problem as long as Capcom makes money off of Umbrella Chronicles and RE4 Wii, THZ is their experimental game. But if Okami and MonHun 3 bombs, that's going to be a problem. We'll find out in 2008.

 

[Sharp]

A lot of EA games actually perform like that. They sit on shelves forever and they sell.

The Sims 2 ( circa 2005) had a staggering LTD of 400k as of fall 2007, it was at 250k in 2006.
You can see how it picked up sales in over two years.

You're talking about a console version in Japan, right? Because PC versions of mainline The Sims titles can make even Nintendogs look like a slow seller.