Media Create Sales 2/19 - 2/25
- Thread starter Cheesemeister
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PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Souldriver said:
While I see what you mean, the "gen" has nothing to do with graphic capabilities (or experiences as guy above me says), and everything to do with each companies' latest entry into console gaming. I think this is actually the 6th gen, assuming the NES/Master System was 2nd gen. All of this "next-gen" stuff is just forum warrioring* and completely irrelevant.
*Actually, I think it was started by one of the companies' marketing departments.
NintendosBooger
Member
Souldriver said:
A lot of people, huh? Like the monkeys on this forum, or the hundreds of thousands of people who've made the Wii the best selling home console for the month of January in the US and Japan? Is the Wii more powerful than all the consoles from the previous gen? Yes. Does it provide gamers with a new experience that they couldn't/didn't experience in the previous generation? Absolutely.
It fulfills any and every obligation necessary to be considered a next-generation console.
Souldriver
Member
But that kind of means every single console is a next-gen on it's own, and you can't say Dreamcast, PS2, GC and Xbox are from the same "gen", because they all have different features and deliver different experiences... Dreamcast could surf the web, xbox had live, ...felipeko said:
plagiarize
Banned
generation is just a term we made up. any argument about the wii being last gen or current gen is purely one of semantics because it's just arguing about the definition of a word that hasn't really been implicitly defined.
the fact is that everyone recognises the wii as a new console.
these people queuing up to get one weren't queuing up the week before it came out to get a ps2... so they must perceive it as somehow different.
whether you want to call that next gen or not doesn't really matter.
it's new. and hot.
the ps3 is new and it isn't hot. in 2 to 3 years it may or may not be hot, but it certainly won't be any newer than the Wii.
the fact is that everyone recognises the wii as a new console.
these people queuing up to get one weren't queuing up the week before it came out to get a ps2... so they must perceive it as somehow different.
whether you want to call that next gen or not doesn't really matter.
it's new. and hot.
the ps3 is new and it isn't hot. in 2 to 3 years it may or may not be hot, but it certainly won't be any newer than the Wii.
Juwanna Peezadis
Member
I wonder if any parents ever call their kids last-gen. . .
"Well, since you're don't look much better than me, you're last-gen, Timmy. Now, your brother, he's next-gen."
"Well, since you're don't look much better than me, you're last-gen, Timmy. Now, your brother, he's next-gen."
Souldriver
Member
Are you saying that the "next gen" is defined by sales?NintendosBooger said:
By that logic the x360 and PS3 are next-next-gen...
The x360 and PS3 also provide new experiences, which last gen couldn't.
I really don't want to get into a discussion about this, because I don't want to derail this thread. All I'm saying is that people shouldn't take it so hard when others are proclaiming the Wii to be current gen. Just let them, who gives a f*ck.
In my personal opinion "next gen" is defined by the group of consoles launched pretty closely together by all the competitors in the market. So by my logic the Dreamcast falls somewhere in between, because the Saturn, PS1 and N64 are a generation for me, and the PS2, GC and Xbox are a generation for me...And by that logic the Wii, PS3 and X360 are also in the same generation.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Juwanna Peezadis said:
Damn, I'm going to do that with my kids. Parental favouritism hits the next level, baby.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Let's take this topic in another direction. The whole 'gen' conversation is so played out. Here you go:
Assuming the worst, how long does Sony stick with the PS3 before "xbox"ing it? Too soon and they risk an even-more pissed off fanbase. Too late and well...
Assuming the worst, how long does Sony stick with the PS3 before "xbox"ing it? Too soon and they risk an even-more pissed off fanbase. Too late and well...
Segata Sanshiro
Member
PantherLotus said:
Well, I think it's way too early to tell. We have to see what kind of system the PS3 is going to become. That and we haven't really seen how Sony would do this sort of thing before. The PSP is hanging on, but it's a #2 and the hardware isn't sold at a loss.
My guess is that they'd do this more the way Nintendo has than the way MS/Sega did. So they'll probably let MS launch first again, then go the next year.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
ITA84 said:
Splorgenborg isn't next-gen. It's Final-gen.
They have third-party partners who have invested tens... in some cases even hundreds of millions of dollars in PS3 tools and exclusive games. They invested those development dollars because they thought PS3 would make them money in the long-term. Sony CANNOT abandon them unless it wants to be left in the gaming wilderness like certain other companies we could name have experienced in the past...PantherLotus said:
Sony needs to tell their third parties "Look. We know this hasn't turned out the way we hoped, or the way you hoped, but we're going to tough it out. We're going to do our damndest to turn this around. We're 100% behind the PS3 as our lead console for the next five years."
Whether this actually works to keep the third-parties happy depends a lot on unit sales and how the opponents perform, but the absolute last thing Sony should do is bail out and leave EA and SE and the rest with huge investments in the burning wreckage of a dead system.
Because the "next gen" your pushing for doesn't have any mean to provide actually more interesting games than the "last gen".f@luS said:
More pixels? yep.
More FSAA? yep.
More shiny particles? yep.
More fun? Nope.
This is a fallacy ad populum: being numerous doesn't make them right.Souldriver said:
And in this case, they're wrong indeed.
Define "anything new".felipeko said:
How is more FLOPs "anything new"? It's the same thing every generation...
If it's so soon it pisses of retailers and fanbase, it's not "xbox"ing it's "saturn"ing.PantherLotus said:
"xbox"ing would be doing it too soon (probably) but late enough not to piss off the fans nor retail.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Segata Sanshiro said:
If they let MS go first, but don't change anything else other than the system specs, it'll just be the same thing over again. It has to be something new. I'm going to make an assertion here, in the same vein as the "3rd console curse," but more concrete. I call it the "every other gen theory."
New Gen Wins, Next Gen Solidifies, Next Next Gen Loses.
NES - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
SNES - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->N64 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.
PS1 - NEW GEN (innovation) - Disk based.
PS2 - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->PS3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.
Wii - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
WiiHD - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->Wii3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Well, to clarify, I wasn't predicting what they should do. I was predicting what they are likely to do. Launching first can definitely be advantageous, but it's hardly required, and it seems to be a concession of weakness for the hardware manufacturer that does it. I just can't see Sony sitting on their pride enough to do what would need to be done in that scenario.
Did i say that?Masklinn said:
ATM for me the biggest "innovation" of ps3/x360 over last gen is the better network.
And they say they will deliver something new with the new hardware, but we are still waiting for that...
Pretty HD graphics not justify Next-Overpriced-Gen IMO.
PantherLotus said:
GB - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
GBA - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->PSP (next gen again) - Fall from grace.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Well, in the US the PS1 went from a launch price of $300 to $150 within 1.5 years, and within 3 years of launch was down to $129.PantherLotus said:
Of course with PS3 bleeding money as-is it's a bit harder to pull off now. Nor was that $299 launch the result of a preemptive pre-launch price drop as the PS3's current price is now in Japan.
Weellll, sort of. Wii is still behind cumulatively, but yeah, catching up fast weekly doing better than DS did early 2005.Dave Long said:
Not that I consider it to be the final word on the matter, but in Wikipedia's organization scheme this is the 7th generation, with the 1st represented by early machines with the games built in.PantherLotus said:
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Sort of an aside, but I was thinking about E3 and Sony. Remember how at the first E3 they effectively won America by stepping up to the podium and saying "$299"? And then at the "last" E3, they may have lost the world by stepping up the podium and saying "$599". Sony really has changed since 1995.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Yeah Joshua, I just noted that.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Xeke said:
Personally I'm saying we know now. Gundam Musou might see a bump in PS3 sales, but it's not going to shift the momentum in any serious way. And by the time titles that CAN shift momentum get to the PS3, the generation will already have been won.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Xeke said:
I think the last time people can really say that is April, 2008. That's the moment that people will start lining up WiiHD vs PS3-Waggle.
Eteric Rice
Member
I'm betting that if Gundam does poorly, developers are going to shit themselves. Gundam is supposedly very big in Japan.
seattle6418
Member
everybody knows ps3 and wii are not going head to head. wii will have more sales in japan, that´s almost a given, but the gamers that moved from generation to genaration will want both systems, one complements the other.
when the price drops, and the software starts to flow, ps3 will be all right
when the price drops, and the software starts to flow, ps3 will be all right
PantherLotus said:
I think what is happening is:
Console - NEW GEN (innovation) - Catering to a new crowd.
Console bis - (next gen) - Fully satisfying the needs of your crowd which is now mainstream.
------->Console ter (next gen again) - Fixating on your crowd, which is now smaller and hardcore, putting a barrier onto new players.
Phife Dawg
Member
I don't agree with that assumption. N64 did innovate in terms of control as well. Maybe not as much as the NES with the d-pad but it's hard to beat that imho. Plus there was the introduction of coherent 3D worlds (Starfox and other Super FX games spearheaded but it all came together with Mario64 imho). So N64 would be new gen as well for me.PantherLotus said:
N64 had other flaws which made it fail by nintendo's former standards but I don't think lack of innovation was one of these.
edit:
Beaten by Neomoto
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Neomoto said:But didn't you forget to add "something" to the N64, I mean it had a whole lot of innovation imo. They made "other" huge mistakes which kicked them in the ass.
I think I was accurate, in that the PS was able to incorporate the number one innovation from the N64 (the analogue stick) and never looked back. The n64 was always held back by the cartridge. It all comes down to the which innovation the others can copy and which cannot. If you can't copy the innovations all you have are hardware upgrades, which is kinda what the N64 really was.
Pfife: what other innovation besides the analogue stick did the 64 have that the PS didn't copy or implicitly already have?
Juwanna Peezadis
Member
Rumble?PantherLotus said:
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Juwanna Peezadis said:
Dual Shock. Try again.
The concept of a next gen system should really be about the place in time that a console would be at its prime. The wii would have bombed if it was launched last gen because what is selling the Wii is mostly due to accessible prices and if it launched last gen people would be reluctant to buy it at a high price.
I mean if the concept of "next gen" is defined by technology then the DS should be considered last gen in comparison to the psp. The DS would probably have had a rediculous price if it was launched around the GBA time, and brain training woud have died a horrible death.
One example of a system that was unsuccessful because it was way ahead of its time is the PC Engine FX(Turbo Duo Handheld). It was superior in every possible way to the GB at the time, had a lot of games(all the HU card games for the PC engine were playable on the PC Engine FX). Shame really. It would have been far more successful if it was launched at the time between GB colour and GBA.
The ps3 and 360(less so) in their current form only have a place with hardcore gamers in the current gen because of the price and outward presentation(ie the presentation of the console itself). If the Wii is successful Sony and MS will have to make an addon for hardcore gamers and a new revision for casual gamers. In that sense the Wii is in the same gen as the current form of the ps3 and 360.
I mean if the concept of "next gen" is defined by technology then the DS should be considered last gen in comparison to the psp. The DS would probably have had a rediculous price if it was launched around the GBA time, and brain training woud have died a horrible death.
One example of a system that was unsuccessful because it was way ahead of its time is the PC Engine FX(Turbo Duo Handheld). It was superior in every possible way to the GB at the time, had a lot of games(all the HU card games for the PC engine were playable on the PC Engine FX). Shame really. It would have been far more successful if it was launched at the time between GB colour and GBA.
The ps3 and 360(less so) in their current form only have a place with hardcore gamers in the current gen because of the price and outward presentation(ie the presentation of the console itself). If the Wii is successful Sony and MS will have to make an addon for hardcore gamers and a new revision for casual gamers. In that sense the Wii is in the same gen as the current form of the ps3 and 360.
Juwanna Peezadis
Member
I got nothin'.DeaconKnowledge said:
Moor-Angol
Banned
Eteric Rice said:
how much is "poorly" for a 600k system ?
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Monk said:
I see what you're suggesting, but that can be applied to anything.
Just as the Game Boy destroyed all challengers with a huge library and good battery life, so did the DS with its diverse game library and new way to play games.
If we shift around the timelines, anything could happen. But things happened the way they DID because the respective companies saw the market in a certain light and made a hardware accordingly. The Wii wouldn't have been made the same way had it been created to compete in the last generations' marketplace.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Jokeropia said:
You are.
I was insinuating that the PS copied the N64's rumble pack with the dual shock, not that it came first.
Phife Dawg
Member
Well the analogue stick was the control innovation I was speaking of, naturally. PS1 didn't have the analogue stick till later in it's life span.PantherLotus said:
Of course if you relativize your statement to "innovations the others can't copy" there ain't much left.
But if (controller) innovation was all that mattered N64 would have done much better. As you said, the cartridge did hurt the N64 and that was because the CD made development so much easier and cheaper, resulting in a more diverse software lineup. All the CD drive offered in terms of "innovation" was FMV and that was something the CD-i delivered before the PS1.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Phife Dawg said:
All of the people who believe the PS3 will smash the Wii need to read the bolded statement and think about the disparity in the Wii and PS3's dev costs.
DeaconKnowledge said:
So what are you arguing here?
If it was released last gen it would have been less powerful than the ps2 if they wanted to sell it at the same price as now. The wii is here because Nintendo thinks it can compete on current gen tvs in terms of graphics with old gen hardware because you cant really go beyond 640 x 480 on a SDTV. They are using gameplay, price, size AND hardware elegance at the cost of graphical power.