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Media Create Sales 2/19 - 2/25

Monk said:
So what are you arguing here? :p If it was released last gen it would have been less powerful than the ps2 if they wanted to sell it at the same price as now. The wii is here because Nintendo thinks it can compete on current gen tvs in terms of graphics with old gen hardware because you cant really go beyond 640 x 480 on a SDTV. They are using gameplay, price, size AND hardware elegance at the cost of graphical power.

Are you sure about that? Remember the price that the GameCube released at. Any extra cost would have been in the remotes, not the hardware.
 

maxmars

Member
I think you guys are seeing this from a weird angle; it's like if you thought that engineers threw around technology to win the heart of the same people (you, most probably, in your train of thought).

What happened instead is that it was a battle to who would respond first to customer needs (marketing) and not necessarily of the same people.

What happened with the GB is that Nintendo saw the need of such machine for youngsters and provided a package that saturated that market pretty well (parents shopping for a handheld -- they wanted a robust, cheaply priced, cheap on batteries product).

Competing machines were much better but either didn't provide a better value for the same people, or catered to an audience which was smaller than the GB one. When the GB hit critical mass, it attracted every 3rd party and their dog and the doors were shut.

We are not seeing the same with DS and PSP because the two are two very different machines that appeal to different kinds of people, although the DS with its monster numbers is of course now attracting a lot of devs/publishers' money that could go in the PSP direction.

I think that there is more than the blue ocean strategy (that Lapsed likes so much) at work here, because you not only need to find a "blue ocean" market, you should find one that is potentially bigger than the competitors' ones. That way you will show that your pond is bigger and you will become a 3rd party magnet, sipping away additional value from your competitors' proposition.
 
I always considered generations to be the cycle between console releases of successors. Starts at the beginning machine and ends when the last successor machine comes out.

So last gen was November 1998 to April 2007.

The current gen started on November 2005.

Anyway, PS3 ****ed up because, like Nintendo with the N64, they assumed that they controlled the market. Consumers control the market. That Sony can tell consumers what they should buy, include stuff that wasn't necessary (Bluray, the achilles heel of PS3), and slap an exorbitant price on the machine.

Garden variety arrogance and ignorance.
 

Eteric Rice

Member
You know, I'm surprised that Nintendo hasn't gone even further to get others to buy the DS. For instance, why haven't they made a simple, easy to use PDA cart for the DS/ DS Lite?

OR...

Japanese Training, because there are a lot of people in America interested in the Japanese language. They could also release Math training, as I know a lot of people would like something that explains more complex math in a very simple way. Hell, it could be used to brush up on Math, and have a built in calculator for those times when you need it.

The DS has tons of (still) un-tapped potential here.
 
PantherLotus said:
If they let MS go first, but don't change anything else other than the system specs, it'll just be the same thing over again. It has to be something new. I'm going to make an assertion here, in the same vein as the "3rd console curse," but more concrete. I call it the "every other gen theory."

New Gen Wins, Next Gen Solidifies, Next Next Gen Loses.
NES - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
SNES - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->N64 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

PS1 - NEW GEN (innovation) - Disk based.
PS2 - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->PS3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

Wii - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
WiiHD - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->Wii3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

the problem with your theory is that only the Nintendo fanboy crowd thinks the PS3 is doomed, but hey, that's par for the course with you guys. How dead is the PSP. It took a bit for it to find its stride but it seems plenty healthy to me. Since its making a profit for Sony you guys should be praising it for printing money ( although not as much as the DSL ). The Ninty fan obsession with how much profit Nintendo makes has always struck me as bizzarre but I guess when you stop caring about graphics, physics and better AI among other things and start to think different equals automaticaly better you gotta cling to something to keep you warm at night.
 

Masklinn

Accept one saviour, get the second free.
felipeko said:
Did i say that?
ATM for me the biggest "innovation" of ps3/x360 over last gen is the better network.
Xbox had a very good network and improved it gradually over its lifespan, with 360 just picking the ball from there, no?
felipeko said:
GB - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
GBA - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->PSP (next gen again) - Fall from grace.
made me lol
Eteric Rice said:
You know, I'm surprised that Nintendo hasn't gone even further to get others to buy the DS. For instance, why haven't they made a simple, easy to use PDA cart for the DS/ DS Lite?
Because the DS is a gaming machine, not a PDA.
Eteric Rice said:
Japanese Training, because there are a lot of people in America interested in the Japanese language. They could also release Math training, as I know a lot of people would like something that explains more complex math in a very simple way.
I guess they're focusing on buying japan right now, US and Europe are planned for the future.
 

maxmars

Member
Eteric Rice said:
You know, I'm surprised that Nintendo hasn't gone even further to get others to buy the DS. For instance, why haven't they made a simple, easy to use PDA cart for the DS/ DS Lite?

A PDA, to be useful, has to be connected to everything else. As a bare minimum PC and phone. This is because their feature set is often useful but not necessary, so they must have some kind of synergy with something else. The fact that phones and GPSs nowadays have roughly PDA power (and a similar feature set) doesn't help either.
 
Wonderdave said:
the problem with your theory is that only the Nintendo fanboy crowd thinks the PS3 is doomed, but hey, that's par for the course with you guys. How dead is the PSP. It took a bit for it to find its stride but it seems plenty healthy to me. Since its making a profit for Sony you guys should be praising it for printing money ( although not as much as the DSL ). The Ninty fan obsession with how much profit Nintendo makes has always struck me as bizzarre but I guess when you stop caring about graphics, physics and better AI among other things and start to think different equals automaticaly better you gotta cling to something to keep you warm at night.

He's right! Quick, pass me my Nintendo™ Safety blanket!
 

Monk

Banned
DeaconKnowledge said:
Are you sure about that? Remember the price that the GameCube released at. Any extra cost would have been in the remotes, not the hardware.

It really depends on what mthey want to do with the console in respect to consumers.
 

marc^o^

Nintendo's Pro Bono PR Firm
Wonderdave said:
the problem with your theory is that only the Nintendo fanboy crowd thinks the PS3 is doomed, but hey, that's par for the course with you guys. How dead is the PSP. It took a bit for it to find its stride but it seems plenty healthy to me. Since its making a profit for Sony you guys should be praising it for printing money ( although not as much as the DSL ). The Ninty fan obsession with how much profit Nintendo makes has always struck me as bizzarre but I guess when you stop caring about graphics, physics and better AI among other things and start to think different equals automaticaly better you gotta cling to something to keep you warm at night.
PS3 is far from being doomed. Despite its price and the current competition, it will certainly sell 50 million units. Sony may lose marketshares, but it won't prevent the PS3 to be a fantastic console, just like N64, PC Engine or Dreamcast were. Not being the 1st =/= doomed, and Nintendo fans know that very well.
 

Masklinn

Accept one saviour, get the second free.
Wonderdave said:
The Ninty fan obsession with how much profit Nintendo makes has always struck me as bizzarre but I guess when you stop caring about graphics, physics and better AI among other things
I think you forgot the part about caring for the actual controls (which is the one that got me back into the console fold fyi)
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Wonderdave said:
the problem with your theory is that only the Nintendo fanboy crowd thinks the PS3 is doomed, but hey, that's par for the course with you guys. How dead is the PSP. It took a bit for it to find its stride but it seems plenty healthy to me. Since its making a profit for Sony you guys should be praising it for printing money ( although not as much as the DSL ). The Ninty fan obsession with how much profit Nintendo makes has always struck me as bizzarre but I guess when you stop caring about graphics, physics and better AI among other things and start to think different equals automaticaly better you gotta cling to something to keep you warm at night.

How on earth does that have anything to do with my theory? How dead is the PSP? Well, how dead was the N64? It wasn't, but it didn't conquer the market. Conquering the market means more and better games. The profit bit is irrelevant so I won't even respond to your predictable trolling.

Clearly the current gen (Wii vs. PS3 vs 360) isn't over, so it isn't a full test proof, but it does show why the PS3 WILL lose. Got anything else besides cute little quips that detract from the issue?
 
marc^o^ said:
Not being the 1st =/= doomed, and Nintendo fans know that very well.
Yeah, but Nintendo made profit regardless. Hard to be doomed when you're raking in the cash. However, Sony's taking some pretty big losses. . .

Also: Dreamcast wasn't exactly the best console to bring up (irregardless of how good it was) when you want to talk about not being doomed. :x
 
Wonderdave said:
the problem with your theory is that only the Nintendo fanboy crowd thinks the PS3 is doomed, but hey, that's par for the course with you guys. How dead is the PSP. It took a bit for it to find its stride but it seems plenty healthy to me. Since its making a profit for Sony you guys should be praising it for printing money ( although not as much as the DSL ). The Ninty fan obsession with how much profit Nintendo makes has always struck me as bizzarre but I guess when you stop caring about graphics, physics and better AI among other things and start to think different equals automaticaly better you gotta cling to something to keep you warm at night.

First of all, Panther's table there doesn't say 'doomed' next to the PS3, it says 'fall from grace', which you'll note it also says next to the Nintendo 64 which was also a very profitable system.

Second, it's not a 'Ninty fan' thing to be interested in sales numbers and trends. Some people actually enjoy looking at business stuff, discussing strategy, and predicting things. It's a modern version of the armchair general, or as seen in sports circles, the armchair quarterback. Most of the usual suspects in the sales threads don't give a rat's derriere who wins. In fact, we'd find it far more interesting if the sales were split 33-33-33, because then things would be less predictable and we'd be having even more fun.

See, there are hobbies within hobbies, and sometimes there is overlap. I have fun doing this kind of analysis with soda sales, fast food restaurant wars, comic books, etc. I can't explain why, but I don't think I really have to justify my hobbies to you, nor does Panther nor Joshua nor anyone for that matter.

You want to label any of us, fine. That's your ignorance and delusion, and it really doesn't change what we like to do in these threads any.
 

Brak

Member
Segata Sanshiro said:
First of all, Panther's table there doesn't say 'doomed' next to the PS3, it says 'fall from grace', which you'll note it also says next to the Nintendo 64 which was also a very profitable system.

Second, it's not a 'Ninty fan' thing to be interested in sales numbers and trends. Some people actually enjoy looking at business stuff, discussing strategy, and predicting things. It's a modern version of the armchair general, or as seen in sports circles, the armchair quarterback. Most of the usual suspects in the sales threads don't give a rat's derriere who wins. In fact, we'd find it far more interesting if the sales were split 33-33-33, because then things would be less predictable and we'd be having even more fun.

See, there are hobbies within hobbies, and sometimes there is overlap. I have fun doing this kind of analysis with soda sales, fast food restaurant wars, comic books, etc. I can't explain why, but I don't think I really have to justify my hobbies to you, nor does Panther nor Joshua nor anyone for that matter.

You want to label any of us, fine. That's your ignorance and delusion, and it really doesn't change what we like to do in these threads any.
Well said.

Extrapolating from market realities =/= console fanboy
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Segata Sanshiro said:
First of all, Panther's table there doesn't say 'doomed' next to the PS3, it says 'fall from grace', which you'll note it also says next to the Nintendo 64 which was also a very profitable system.

Second, it's not a 'Ninty fan' thing to be interested in sales numbers and trends. Some people actually enjoy looking at business stuff, discussing strategy, and predicting things. It's a modern version of the armchair general, or as seen in sports circles, the armchair quarterback. Most of the usual suspects in the sales threads don't give a rat's derriere who wins. In fact, we'd find it far more interesting if the sales were split 33-33-33, because then things would be less predictable and we'd be having even more fun.

See, there are hobbies within hobbies, and sometimes there is overlap. I have fun doing this kind of analysis with soda sales, fast food restaurant wars, comic books, etc. I can't explain why, but I don't think I really have to justify my hobbies to you, nor does Panther nor Joshua nor anyone for that matter.

You want to label any of us, fine. That's your ignorance and delusion, and it really doesn't change what we like to do in these threads any.

Man that's a good post. You deserve a tag for that one.

Why we care about sales.
 

Kiriku

SWEDISH PERFECTION
PantherLotus said:
If they let MS go first, but don't change anything else other than the system specs, it'll just be the same thing over again. It has to be something new. I'm going to make an assertion here, in the same vein as the "3rd console curse," but more concrete. I call it the "every other gen theory."

New Gen Wins, Next Gen Solidifies, Next Next Gen Loses.
NES - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
SNES - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->N64 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

PS1 - NEW GEN (innovation) - Disk based.
PS2 - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->PS3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

Wii - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
WiiHD - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->Wii3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

I think your theory is much too loose and generalizing to make any sense other than it just happens to fit with your way of thinking. There are LOADS of factors that play into how things work out in the end. And even if your theory happens to be correct with the Wii, what does that even tell us? That there's some "curse" at work?
 
Kiriku said:
I think your theory is much too loose and generalizing to make any sense other than it just happens to fit with your way of thinking. There are LOADS of factors that play into how things work out in the end. And even if your theory happens to be correct with the Wii, what does that even tell us? That there's some "curse" at work?

I would say *if* it happens again, we can say there's a "pattern" at work. Patterns aren't mystical things though, so at that point we'd just have to start looking around and checking out similarities and differences to try and pick out related factors. Which we try to do now, of course, but the more data you have, the easier it is to spot trends and influential factors. I'd agree Panther's theory is a bit loose and generalizing, but it's a start, at least.
 

felipeko

Member
Kiriku said:
I think your theory is much too loose and generalizing to make any sense other than it just happens to fit with your way of thinking. There are LOADS of factors that play into how things work out in the end. And even if your theory happens to be correct with the Wii, what does that even tell us? That there's some "curse" at work?
Yeah, the others factor on PS1 era would be earlier launch, the thirdy parties pissed at nintendo, the price of cartridges... But i agree that it being CD mean more then that... I was kid when it launched, and for me that looked so cool!
I needed to have it, cos it was CD! lol.
I even had a 3DO.
 
PantherLotus said:
If they let MS go first, but don't change anything else other than the system specs, it'll just be the same thing over again. It has to be something new. I'm going to make an assertion here, in the same vein as the "3rd console curse," but more concrete. I call it the "every other gen theory."

New Gen Wins, Next Gen Solidifies, Next Next Gen Loses.
NES - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
SNES - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->N64 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

PS1 - NEW GEN (innovation) - Disk based.
PS2 - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->PS3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

Wii - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
WiiHD - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->Wii3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

The only concern I have with this theory is its source. There are more intangibles here, the chief one being the respective companies' philosophy. Meaning, Nintendo got arrogant with their "Nobody will topple us no matter what we do" mentality, as did Sony.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
DeaconKnowledge said:
The only concern I have with this theory is its source. There are more intangibles here, the chief one being the respective companies' philosophy. Meaning, Nintendo got arrogant with their "Nobody will topple us no matter what we do" mentality, as did Sony.

I think that falls in line with the general theory: companies get comfortable with a formula and try to replicate it. It works once and solidifies the market, the second time it becomes old hat and falls from grace.

It's this whole "next next gen" that people have a problem with. Look back at the examples (N64, PS3) and the primary differentiation (after the fact) between it and its previous bretheren are power differences. Innovations don't count if the competition can replicate it quick enough to make it a non-differentiation.

Again, I assert:

New Gen wins, Next Gen solidifies, Next^2 Gen falls from grace. It's not perfect, but it's just loose enough to include all the silly reasons that companies would think Next^2 Gen would actually work.

GAF: Get back to me in 2010 and tell me if I was right.
 
PantherLotus said:
If they let MS go first, but don't change anything else other than the system specs, it'll just be the same thing over again. It has to be something new. I'm going to make an assertion here, in the same vein as the "3rd console curse," but more concrete. I call it the "every other gen theory."

New Gen Wins, Next Gen Solidifies, Next Next Gen Loses.
NES - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
SNES - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->N64 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

PS1 - NEW GEN (innovation) - Disk based.
PS2 - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->PS3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

Wii - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
WiiHD - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->Wii3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.


I have a problem with calling N64 just next gen again. Wasnt that the system that pioneered alot in 3d gameplay. Big transistion from 2d play. Re-envisioning all the franchises to a 3d world. Like mario 64
 

Kiriku

SWEDISH PERFECTION
Segata Sanshiro said:
I would say *if* it happens again, we can say there's a "pattern" at work. Patterns aren't mystical things though, so at that point we'd just have to start looking around and checking out similarities and differences to try and pick out related factors. Which we try to do now, of course, but the more data you have, the easier it is to spot trends and influential factors. I'd agree Panther's theory is a bit loose and generalizing, but it's a start, at least.

Well, the game industry is pretty young. Maybe Sony's temporary (assuming that's the case) dominance is just that: temporary. Maybe Nintendo will dominate the console market 20 years straight starting with the Wii? When is a pattern a pattern? And when is it just coincidence?

And I think it requires a lot more effort than just picking an "innovation" as reason for success. We could take Wii as an example. I highly doubt its success is only related to controls, but also has a lot to do with the low price, clever marketing, DS being incredibly popular etc etc. And with PS3, you could say it's failing because of blu-ray cranking up the price, not just because it's doing "next-gen again".
I agree the theory is a start, but it's also the easiest part. I'm more interested in the complicated part. :p
 
Eteric Rice said:
They could also release Math training, as I know a lot of people would like something that explains more complex math in a very simple way. Hell, it could be used to brush up on Math, and have a built in calculator for those times when you need it.

It's already planned, i saw some screenshots while i was looking on amazon.jp chart, but honestly i forgot what game is it...
 

Deku

Banned
maxmars said:
I think you guys are seeing this from a weird angle; it's like if you thought that engineers threw around technology to win the heart of the same people (you, most probably, in your train of thought).

What happened instead is that it was a battle to who would respond first to customer needs (marketing) and not necessarily of the same people.

What happened with the GB is that Nintendo saw the need of such machine for youngsters and provided a package that saturated that market pretty well (parents shopping for a handheld -- they wanted a robust, cheaply priced, cheap on batteries product).

Competing machines were much better but either didn't provide a better value for the same people, or catered to an audience which was smaller than the GB one. When the GB hit critical mass, it attracted every 3rd party and their dog and the doors were shut.

We are not seeing the same with DS and PSP because the two are two very different machines that appeal to different kinds of people, although the DS with its monster numbers is of course now attracting a lot of devs/publishers' money that could go in the PSP direction.
.

Well that's one form of engineering. For decades Japanese manufacturers were known for borrowing western innovations and incorporating them in ways never thought of and monetizing these products. The walkmans and Triniton lines of Sony products were of that philosophy. The Famicom/NES did not have cutting edge parts, in fact its CPU was similar to the one used in the Atari VCS.

The whole concept of consumer technology as having to be cutting edge is a fairly recent phenomenon and partly driven by the planned obsolescence strategy championed by major manufacturers like Sony which encourage consumers to trade up older products for newer 'better ones'.

There's a lot to be said about coming out with a product that fits the needs of consumers and or maximizes the components for which the technology is based. I'm not championing the Wii here in particular as it has a lot to prove still, but products like the DS and PS2 do that, and give consumers tremendous value. Perhaps it comes with the territory of market leadership, but simply throwing in a parts for horsepower without considering the needs of the users is not good design. The PSP is a prime example of that. Despite its power, the product is largely lesser than the sum of its parts and a lot of the design choices ultimately destroys consumer value (load times, perceived fragility, low battery life)
 

noonche

Member
PantherLotus said:
If they let MS go first, but don't change anything else other than the system specs, it'll just be the same thing over again. It has to be something new. I'm going to make an assertion here, in the same vein as the "3rd console curse," but more concrete. I call it the "every other gen theory."

New Gen Wins, Next Gen Solidifies, Next Next Gen Loses.
NES - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
SNES - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->N64 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

PS1 - NEW GEN (innovation) - Disk based.
PS2 - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->PS3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

Wii - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
WiiHD - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->Wii3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

I don't think you can call the N64 a "next gen again" console, 3D had an enourmous impact on games. I also don't buy PS1's primary innovation being its CDs. The PS1's biggest innovation was the developer support (APIs, manuals, lower liscensing fees, and yes, production costs from CDs) that Sony provided to 3rd parties.

In both cases (SNES -> N64 and PS2 -> PS3) I feel that both companies incorrectly identified what made their previous systems sucessful. Nintendo seemed to bet that the technological superiority of the SNES coupled with their 1st party output was the source of that system's sucess. They lost when the majority of the appealing games went to another platform. Sony's screw-ups are different yet not altogether dissimilar.
 

Wolf Beil

Banned
PantherLotus said:
New Gen Wins, Next Gen Solidifies, Next Next Gen Loses.
NES - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
SNES - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->N64 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

PS1 - NEW GEN (innovation) - Disk based.
PS2 - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->PS3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.

Wii - NEW GEN (innovation) - Controls.
WiiHD - (next gen) - Graphics.
------->Wii3 (next gen again) - Fall from grace.
I think what your theory implies is that the "next-gen again" console falls from grace because it's next-gen again, but it was something entirely different what made the N64 fail. Same for PS3, but I think it's too early to say that's it failed.
 

farnham

Banned
alske said:
I don't think you can call the N64 a "next gen again" console, 3D had an enourmous impact on games. I also don't buy PS1's primary innovation being its CDs. The PS1's biggest innovation was the developer support (APIs, manuals, lower liscensing fees, and yes, production costs from CDs) that Sony provided to 3rd parties.

In both cases (SNES -> N64 and PS2 -> PS3) I feel that both companies incorrectly identified what made their previous systems sucessful. Nintendo seemed to bet that the technological superiority of the SNES coupled with their 1st party output was the source of that system's sucess. They lost when the majority of the appealing games went to another platform. Sony's screw-ups are different yet not altogether dissimilar.


there were many CD based games like the saturn the 3DO the philips i, the pippin, the turbographix16 CD or even Sega CD

so i guess that could not be called an innovation of the playstation..

but the publishing efforts and dev support was superior to anything in the 32 bit gen..
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
alske said:
I don't think you can call the N64 a "next gen again" console, 3D had an enourmous impact on games. I also don't buy PS1's primary innovation being its CDs. The PS1's biggest innovation was the developer support (APIs, manuals, lower liscensing fees, and yes, production costs from CDs) that Sony provided to 3rd parties.

In both cases (SNES -> N64 and PS2 -> PS3) I feel that both companies incorrectly identified what made their previous systems sucessful. Nintendo seemed to bet that the technological superiority of the SNES coupled with their 1st party output was the source of that system's sucess. They lost when the majority of the appealing games went to another platform. Sony's screw-ups are different yet not altogether dissimilar.

Was the PS1 incapable of 3D graphics? C'mon d00d. What did the N64 do that the PS1 didn't? Nothing. And it was hampered by the cartridge format. And everything you mentioned about the PS1's (market) innovations helps complete the theory. They innovated more, they won. They were new gen.

In both the N64 and the PS3's cases (clearly the PS3 isn't finished just yet), the whole thing really is more of the same, but a whole lot more of it. And sticking with cartridges cannot be overstated--it was a deathblow to Nintendo 3rd party support that it still has not recovered from.


New Gen WINS, Next Gen SOLIDIFIES, Next Gen 2* FALLS FROM GRACE.


Next Gen 2 = Trying the same thing as Next Gen, but more of it.
 
PantherLotus said:
Was the PS1 incapable of 3D graphics? C'mon d00d. What did the N64 do that the PS1 didn't? Nothing. And it was hampered by the cartridge format. And everything you mentioned about the PS1's (market) innovations helps complete the theory. They innovated more, they won. They were new gen.

In both the N64 and the PS3's cases (clearly the PS3 isn't finished just yet), the whole thing really is more of the same, but a whole lot more of it. And sticking with cartridges cannot be overstated--it was a deathblow to Nintendo 3rd party support that it still has not recovered from.


New Gen WINS, Next Gen SOLIDIFIES, Next Gen 2* FALLS FROM GRACE.


Next Gen 2 = Trying the same thing as Next Gen, but more of it.


There's nothing wrong with your theory except that it's overly simplistic. The N64 DID innovate vs. the SNES; it introduced our current standard thumbstick and 4 controller ports, and it did 3D, and far better than the competition. It had two weaknesses: Nintendo's arrogance (toward developers and retailers), and of course the cartridges, which is (as everyone here knows), a long story but not 'failure to innovate'.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Well market theories need to be pretty broad by definition. The whole "next next gen" is encompassing enough to include arrogance. And sticking with cartridges most definitely IS a failure to innovate, of colossal proportions no less. Moreover, 4 controller ports was an addition, not an innovation (a technical but significant distinction). The analogue stick was copied and put out on the market without a 2nd thought from Sony, eliminating any perceived innovation.

I'm not saying the 64 was devoid of innovation; no less is the PS3 devoid of innovation. Rather, the competition was (is) able to adopt the innovations in combination with their own to differentiate their product at a time when the market wants something new.
 

noonche

Member
PantherLotus said:
Was the PS1 incapable of 3D graphics? C'mon d00d. What did the N64 do that the PS1 didn't? Nothing. And it was hampered by the cartridge format. And everything you mentioned about the PS1's (market) innovations helps complete the theory. They innovated more, they won. They were new gen.

In both the N64 and the PS3's cases (clearly the PS3 isn't finished just yet), the whole thing really is more of the same, but a whole lot more of it. And sticking with cartridges cannot be overstated--it was a deathblow to Nintendo 3rd party support that it still has not recovered from.


New Gen WINS, Next Gen SOLIDIFIES, Next Gen 2* FALLS FROM GRACE.


Next Gen 2 = Trying the same thing as Next Gen, but more of it.

My point was that 3D graphics where a dramatic innovation over the Super NES. The N64 was not "next gen again" because of the many things that it did different from the SNES; 3D being a primary example.

The PS3 also isn't "let's do the same thing we did with PS2 again". The PS2 built on the momentum of the PS1 by securing exclusives early, sewing up developer support and launching well before any real competition emerged, just like the PS1 did. PS3 has not done any of these things.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
alske said:
1. My point was that 3D graphics where a dramatic innovation over the Super NES. The N64 was not "next gen again" because of the many things that it did different from the SNES; 3D being a primary example.

2. The PS3 also isn't "let's do the same thing we did with PS2 again". The PS2 built on the momentum of the PS1 by securing exclusives early, sewing up developer support and launching well before any real competition emerged, just like the PS1 did. PS3 has not done any of these things.

1. It is most definitely not an innovation if everybody can do it; it's a standard. Like rumble, or analogue, if you want to stay in the same gen.

2. PS3, from a hardware/presentation perspective, most definitely is "more of the same." It just happens to be A WHOLE LOT MORE of the same. And honestly, Sony was following the exact same path with it...right up until about the time of last May. Don't you remember? Because they went after "a whole lot more" of the same, they had to delay and delay again because the market (manufacturer) wasn't ready. BECAUSE they were doing more of the same.
 
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