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[haircut]

Then you have the graphics whores. Check this out.

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=25518233&page=0

Read the posts by ChiefFreeman, he is the incarnation of everything I hate about gamers.

That guy's alright, he's just trolling an angle he knows he can win at. Nobody actually believes games have to be "next gen" to be worthwhile, so I wouldn't let him get me angry. Just watch the other people get angry and argue

 

[Eteric Rice]

So why isn't the Blue Ocean Strategy Training released on the NDS yet?

You know... I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. :lol

 

[Link]

Nobody actually believes games have to be "next gen" to be worthwhile

You know, I used to think that, too.

 

[SouthernDragon]

They already exist. Elitists, that is.

When a couple of gaming nerds get together and start talking about frames, shading, resolutions, hardware, particle effects and the like, do you think that's inviting conversation? It's off-putting, and those are the hardcore; so engrossed in their hobby that their very manner of speaking discourages newcomers.

Those that obsess over graphics fall firmly into this category. Get a group of friends together to play a game. The guy that complains about frames per second, shading, and textures will be met with awkward silence, especially if there are casual or new gamers in the group.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Another thing, since we're all talking about this now, that people seem to miss a lot: the tag line of Blue Ocean Strategy, the book, is "Create Uncontested Market Space And Make The Competition Irrelevant." Note that it says nothing about "Become The #1 Player in Your Industry." You don't do this to "win": you do this because if you do it right, you don't need to win.

That is all to say that -- regardless of Lapsed's opinion that Nintendo is "fighting indifference" and will consider themselves to have failed if they don't sell 100 skillion units -- Nintendo doesn't need to sell more consoles than Sony or Microsoft for this gambit to be successful. All they need to do is create a market that nobody else is in. Callaway didn't "win" with the Big Bertha; Yellow Tail didn't become the number-one maker of wine.

Interesting, then, that as soon as Nintendo decided that they didn't need to sell more consoles than Sony or Microsoft, they found themselves in a position where they might actually do so.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Another thing, since we're all talking about this now, that people seem to miss a lot: the tag line of Blue Ocean Strategy, the book, is "Create Uncontested Market Space And Make The Competition Irrelevant." Note that it says nothing about "Become The #1 Player in Your Industry." You don't do this to "win": you do this because if you do it right, you don't need to win.

That is all to say that -- regardless of Lapsed's opinion that Nintendo is "fighting indifference" and will consider themselves to have failed if they don't sell 100 skillion units -- Nintendo doesn't need to sell more consoles than Sony or Microsoft for this gambit to be successful. All they need to do is create a market that nobody else is in. Callaway didn't "win" with the Big Bertha; Yellow Tail didn't become the number-one maker of wine.

Interesting, then, that as soon as Nintendo decided that they didn't need to sell more consoles than Sony or Microsoft, they found themselves in a position where they might actually do so.

If things keep going as they are, they probably WILL outsell both of the competition.

It's funny, when they're not trying to beat everyone else, they win. When they try, they don't.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

If things keep going as they are, they probably WILL outsell both of the competition.

It's funny, when they're not trying to beat everyone else, they win. When they try, they don't.

Nintendo is just doing what they should have been doing.

They could never compete against the massive multinationals like Sony and MS, so they create their own market that they have to themselves. The best part is by doing that they could also make attempts to keep the market they do have while expanding the market on a massive scale.

On the DS they have done an amazing job in Japan. In the USA I would be a little bit more cautious just because it seems that they are appealing to the same market, the gameboy advance owners who have grown up a little bit.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Nintendo is just doing what they should have been doing.

They could never compete against the massive multinationals like Sony and MS, so they create their own market that they have to themselves. The best part is by doing that they could also make attempts to keep the market they do have while expanding the market on a massive scale.

On the DS they have done an amazing job in Japan. In the USA I would be a little bit more cautious just because it seems that they are appealing to the same market, the gameboy advance owners who have grown up a little bit.

If their worst-case scenario for the DS in the US is matching GBA, I'm pretty sure Reggie's going to sleep soundly tonight.

 

[RaijinFY]

Where are the Famitsu numbers?

 

[Hcoregamer00]

If their worst-case scenario for the DS in the US is matching GBA, I'm pretty sure Reggie's going to sleep soundly tonight.

Yeah, but it would be nice if it became the same cultural phenomenon as Japan and Europe.

2 out of 3 ain't bad, but it would be nice to have a perfect score.

 

[cvxfreak]

Where are the Famitsu numbers?

For the week before this one?

http://www.famitsu.com/game/rank/top30/2007/03/28/120,1175079569,69129,0,0.html

 

[chibcicylist]

Nintendo is just doing what they should have been doing.

They could never compete against the massive multinationals like Sony and MS, so they create their own market that they have to themselves. The best part is by doing that they could also make attempts to keep the market they do have while expanding the market on a massive scale.

On the DS they have done an amazing job in Japan. In the USA I would be a little bit more cautious just because it seems that they are appealing to the same market, the gameboy advance owners who have grown up a little bit.

this is why i think that the Wii in the US will be what the DS is in Japan.

 

[D.Lo]

So why isn't the Blue Ocean Strategy Training released on the NDS yet?

:lol

It's funny, when they're not trying to beat everyone else, they win. When they try, they don't.

It's not really that funny. MS lost has lost, what $6 billion now? And so far the 360 is losing more money then the original Xbox year on year. Is that what it takes to win? And even though they didn't have to, Sony is now following the same path.

Unless you have some crazy extra agenda (Windows on TVs, next iPod/DVD format etc) and a multi-national behemoth to back you up, you don't want to 'win' that war. It's like a battle of attrittion on a sinking island.

 

[Jirotrom]

:lol

It's not really that funny. MS lost has lost, what $6 billion now? And so far the 360 is losing more money then the original Xbox year on year. Is that what it takes to win? And even though they didn't have to, Sony is now following the same path.

Unless you have some crazy extra agenda (Windows on TVs, next iPod/DVD format etc) and a multi-national behemoth to back you up, you don't want to 'win' that war. It's like a battle of attrittion on a sinking island.

great analogy

 

[Neo C.]

Another thing, since we're all talking about this now, that people seem to miss a lot: the tag line of Blue Ocean Strategy, the book, is "Create Uncontested Market Space And Make The Competition Irrelevant." Note that it says nothing about "Become The #1 Player in Your Industry." You don't do this to "win": you do this because if you do it right, you don't need to win.

[...]
Interesting, then, that as soon as Nintendo decided that they didn't need to sell more consoles than Sony or Microsoft, they found themselves in a position where they might actually do so.

Nintendo has created a new market for itself, but there are still hardcore products they want to sell. So "winning the war" is still a goal they want to reach for their own hardcore games and for the 3rd party products.

Speaking only for the new market, you're right. A BT-gamer is happy as long as he can find the sort of games for his DS, therefore Nintendo doesn't need to "win" for the sake of having more 3rd party games.

 

[Azelover]

On the DS they have done an amazing job in Japan. In the USA I would be a little bit more cautious just because it seems that they are appealing to the same market, the gameboy advance owners who have grown up a little bit.

There's something else going on with the Wii in America though, apart from DS.

I think Japan and Europe will mostly just go with the Wii because in the end it's the most convenient new platform for their needs. It's small, it's cheap, it's standard definition and the experience is not centered around internet connections. In that sense it will probably be like the DS Lite was in America, it's an obvious choice, specially for the japanese, but not through any sort of social phenomenon.

But in America I do see the potential growing for a very big thing happening with the Wii. What you saw with the Brain Training in Japan, with the mainstream media and all, I think Nintendo is in a position now where they could potentially replicate a similar situation in America with Wii Health Pack. If they do it right.

 

[Neomoto]

Bleh, sorry I miswrote that. I meant more of how its ironic how Nintendo is indirectly connected to both a failure and success of the Blue Ocean Theory....yeh my post didn't come out right at all :/

Nintendo has next to nothing to do with the CD-i. It is not their product, nor their failure. And how exactly is Nintendo "indirectly" involved with a Blue Ocean succes? Nintendo is only connected to the "Blue Ocean Theory" with the DS and Wii, both incredible successes.

Yeah, but it would be nice if it became the same cultural phenomenon as Japan and Europe.

2 out of 3 ain't bad, but it would be nice to have a perfect score.

Iirc the DS NPD numbers from 2007 where incredible high, even now before Pokemon hits. US is catching up rapidly on the DS frenzy it seems.

 

[maxmars]

Nintendo has next to nothing to do with the CD-i. It is not their product, nor their failure.

Well, in the mid-nineties Nintendo and Sega were fighting over the same market, then SONY came and expanded it greatly with the Playstation. Probably he was referencing that.

 

[Kiriku]

Another thing, since we're all talking about this now, that people seem to miss a lot: the tag line of Blue Ocean Strategy, the book, is "Create Uncontested Market Space And Make The Competition Irrelevant." Note that it says nothing about "Become The #1 Player in Your Industry." You don't do this to "win": you do this because if you do it right, you don't need to win.

I'm sure their fans still want them to "win" though.

 

[Avrum]

That guy's alright, he's just trolling an angle he knows he can win at. Nobody actually believes games have to be "next gen" to be worthwhile, so I wouldn't let him get me angry. Just watch the other people get angry and argue

Though I'm not sure of how many know of them, there are two members on Nintendo's boards that essentially do the same thing: Vash13 and Ananag12. They tend to find a lot of Nintendo news and put a negative spin on it by picking out certain excerpts and quoting only specific points that could be assumed that way, hoping to hook others that are too lazy to find the articles themselves and actually read the information into agreeing with them.

Still doesn't make the attempt any less sad however if you have to go around acting like a dick to make a point or just to get your kicks on the internet. Makes me wonder what they do for entertainment IRL.

 

[Dave Long]

Makes me wonder what they do for entertainment IRL.

Kick kittens.

 

[Wiitard]

But in America I do see the potential growing for a very big thing happening with the Wii. What you saw with the Brain Training in Japan, with the mainstream media and all, I think Nintendo is in a position now where they could potentially replicate a similar situation in America with Wii Health Pack. If they do it right.

I have to disagree with that. Brain Training was NOT a nobrainer - it Nintendo did not do it, someone would. Exergaming on Wii is an entirely different story - if they don't do it right someone else will with 100% chance maybe 6 months later.

 

[Mariah Carey]

I have to disagree with that. Brain Training was NOT a nobrainer - it Nintendo did not do it, someone would. Exergaming on Wii is an entirely different story - if they don't do it right someone else will with 100% chance maybe 6 months later.

Did you mistype something? You're saying "If Nintendo didn't do Brain Training someone else would have, but if Nintendo doesn't do Wii Fitness someone else would have," which doesn't make any sense.

 

[Haunted]

100 skillion units

That's a lot of units.

It's like a battle of attrittion on a sinking island.

nice!

 

[Pureauthor]

It's like a battle of attrittion on a sinking island.

No, it's more like 300 soldiers having to hold back a force of thousands of invaders from destroying their...

Um...

What were we talking about, again?

 

[donny2112]

Where are the Famitsu numbers?

Famitsu Mar 12-18

1. NDS Yoshi's Island DS 114946 / 369469
2. NDS Word Puzzle Mojipittan DS 78222 / NEW
3. PSP Monster Hunter Portable 2 55590 / 1053791
4. NDS Prof. Layton and the Mysterious Village 44431 / 297876
5. WII Wii Sports 29710 / 1185181
6. NDS Pokemon Diamond/Pearl 24119 / 4922421
7. NDS New Super Mario Bros. 23196 / 4249418
8. WII Wii Play 22056 / 989216
9. NDS Brain Training 2 21506 / 4148915
10. PS2 Kin-iro no Corda 2 21480 / NEW
11. NDS Super Robot Wars W 19887 / 237484
12. NDS Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker 19646 / 1267402
13. PS3 Gundam Musou 19227 / 237396
14. NDS General Knowledge Training 18040 / 1283192
15. NDS Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters: World Championship 2007 18025 / NEW
16. NDS Tokimeki Memorial: Girl's Side 1st Love 17536 / NEW
17. PS2 Kenka Bancho 2: Full Throttle 16215 / 59302
18. NDS Sim City DS 14185 / 76808
19. NDS Animal Crossing: Wild World 13006 / 3964103
20. NDS Iron Left Brain: Mistake Museum 2 12471 / 47293
21. NDS Lost in Blue 2 12040 / NEW
22. NDS Mario Kart DS 11854 / 2010377
23. NDS Brain Training 10730 / 3186571
24. WII Sonic and the Secret Rings 9353 / NEW
25. NDS Heroes of Mana 9108 / 29327
26. NDS IQ Training 9100 / 162930
27. NDS Doraemon's New Magic World Adventure DS 8995 / 22447
28. NDS English Training 8302 / 1692869
29. NDS Harvest Moon: The Island I Grew Up On 8269 / 177964
30. NDS Picross DS 8232 / 213980

 

[D.Lo]

Well, in the mid-nineties Nintendo and Sega were fighting over the same market, then SONY came and expanded it greatly with the Playstation. Probably he was referencing that.

That's a myth anyway. Sony never really grew the market, and certainly didn't 'expand it greatly.'

In Japan they shrank it. And overseas they just united it. When the PS2 was released, the PS1 had still only sold about as many as the NES, despite having sold well in Europe (which the NES never did) and despite having a huge system failure rate (encouraging multiple purchases). You could claim that the PS2 grew the market, but with an even greater failure rate and weak competition, overall market growth was slanted in their favour.

The US market grew in dollars, and MTV etc were keen to play into the hype, but overall number of users two years ago was still only marginally greater then ten years ago.

 

[Kuramu]

The whole "expanded the market" thing ... where exactly did it expand? Or is it just PR? I, like most here, grew up gaming. I got a SNES when i was about 16 or so. 6 years later i got a PS when i was 22. Do they consider that expanding the market into an older demographic, even though i'm the same customer who was going to keep gaming anyway?

 

[Gekkonidae]

You expand the market by altering the definition of the product, thus creating new types of buyers. And you don't create this new market suddenly, that is, old ladies who have had no exposure to gaming aren't suddenly going to go out and buy a Wii or a DS, rather, it's the people on the fringes of the current market who are most immediately affected, growing the market for a product gradually.

Example: Say person A is not a gamer, maybe he played as a kid but doesn't own a console this gen. He plays at his friend Person B's house, as a social gamer at gatherings, but he has no interest in his own console. He is at the fringe of the market. Now say that the Virtual Console, or the motion sensing, or just the hype about the Wii excites him and he decides to buy one. Now his friend Person C who never plays video games but comes over to his place and experiences the Wii is a fringe gamer. Thus in changing what people think video games are, Nintendo is able to grow the market and by creating a single new gamer expands to several new fringe gamers who, in the future could enter the market themselves.

I have seen this behavior in action, and I believe this has been the Wii and the DS' success in "expanding the market."

 

[jarrod]

The whole "expanded the market" thing ... where exactly did it expand? Or is it just PR? I, like most here, grew up gaming. I got a SNES when i was about 16 or so. 6 years later i got a PS when i was 22. Do they consider that expanding the market into an older demographic, even though i'm the same customer who was going to keep gaming anyway?

Basically. PlayStation (and Genesis/MD to a lesser extent) is generally credited with expanding the market to older audiences, but the truth is more along to lines of the established marketplace growing older and these new machines appealing to a changing (but not really brand new) audience. In America, this is largely true, as the market has naturally grown roughly 10m units each active generation since NES.

PlayStation did move a lot more units than consoles previously over Europe, but then it's arguable if that's an entirely new base or simply converted PC/Amiga/C64/MSX/etc gamers (which were hugely successful in previous generations, dwarfing Nintendo and Sega's dedicated platform sales). PlayStation did do a lot to move into Eastern European markets and unify a continental brand though (versus Nintendo, who'd always spottily operated through sublicensed distributors).

PlayStation's certainly done a lot for gaming's advertsing trends, licensing structures and general public perception... but it's quite arguable if they've been as major a driver for *new* consumers histroically as Nintendo has with products like Famicom, Game Boy, Pokemon or now Wii/DS.

 

[Wiitard]

Did you mistype something? You're saying "If Nintendo didn't do Brain Training someone else would have, but if Nintendo doesn't do Wii Fitness someone else would have," which doesn't make any sense.

Yes, I did mistype. My point was that Brain Training and Nintendogs are not nobrainers. It's not like you look at the DS and say: you what might sell on this thing?

Exergaming on Wii is a totally different story. I expect dozens of games rushing to that niche once the fall starts. Wii boxing was enough of proof of concept. In that sense I do not see Nintendo the publisher (as opposed to Nintendo the hardware maker or licensor) will have such a huge effect on success of exergaming on Wii - maybe only on timing.

 

[KINGMOKU]

Famitsu Mar 12-18

1. NDS Yoshi's Island DS 114946 / 369469
2. NDS Word Puzzle Mojipittan DS 78222 / NEW
3. PSP Monster Hunter Portable 2 55590 / 1053791
4. NDS Prof. Layton and the Mysterious Village 44431 / 297876
5. WII Wii Sports 29710 / 1185181
6. NDS Pokemon Diamond/Pearl 24119 / 4922421
7. NDS New Super Mario Bros. 23196 / 4249418
8. WII Wii Play 22056 / 989216
9. NDS Brain Training 2 21506 / 4148915
10. PS2 Kin-iro no Corda 2 21480 / NEW
11. NDS Super Robot Wars W 19887 / 237484
12. NDS Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker 19646 / 1267402
13. PS3 Gundam Musou 19227 / 237396
14. NDS General Knowledge Training 18040 / 1283192
15. NDS Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters: World Championship 2007 18025 / NEW
16. NDS Tokimeki Memorial: Girl's Side 1st Love 17536 / NEW
17. PS2 Kenka Bancho 2: Full Throttle 16215 / 59302
18. NDS Sim City DS 14185 / 76808
19. NDS Animal Crossing: Wild World 13006 / 3964103
20. NDS Iron Left Brain: Mistake Museum 2 12471 / 47293
21. NDS Lost in Blue 2 12040 / NEW
22. NDS Mario Kart DS 11854 / 2010377
23. NDS Brain Training 10730 / 3186571
24. WII Sonic and the Secret Rings 9353 / NEW
25. NDS Heroes of Mana 9108 / 29327
26. NDS IQ Training 9100 / 162930
27. NDS Doraemon's New Magic World Adventure DS 8995 / 22447
28. NDS English Training 8302 / 1692869
29. NDS Harvest Moon: The Island I Grew Up On 8269 / 177964
30. NDS Picross DS 8232 / 213980

I dont understand. Did you mean to post old numbers?

 

[Mariah Carey]

Yes, I did mistype. My point was that Brain Training and Nintendogs are not nobrainers. It's not like you look at the DS and say: you what might sell on this thing?

Exergaming on Wii is a totally different story. I expect dozens of games rushing to that niche once the fall starts. Wii boxing was enough of proof of concept. In that sense I do not see Nintendo the publisher (as opposed to Nintendo the hardware maker or licensor) will have such a huge effect on success of exergaming on Wii - maybe only on timing.

I see.

 

[mugwhump]

Mariah Carey used to live in my old house. Yup yup.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I dont understand. Did you mean to post old numbers?

Somebody asked for Famitsu numbers, and those are the most recent.

 

[Fuzzy]

I dont understand. Did you mean to post old numbers?

Famitsu always runs a week behind Media Create.

 

[Vinnk]

Quick Observation:

I was at 2 stores yesterday and both were sold out of "More English Training". But the first day numbers were not super high. Did Nintendo just not ship a lot of these? Anyone have any numbers for % of shipment sold?

 

[ziran]

Famitsu Hardware numbers up to March 25th:
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&refer=conews&tkr=7974:JP&sid=a_A5anLn.xE8

Wii - 1.95 million
PS3 - 812k

 

[Jokeropia]

MC numbers for comparison:

Wii: 1.91 million
PS3: 794k

 

[mabuza]

do any jgaffers know how well the konami baseball game will do on the ps3?

 

[TheKingsCrown]

do any jgaffers know how well the konami baseball game will do on the ps3?

So......confusing.....Gaffers,knowing anything? In the future? AHHH

 

[creamsugar]

Japanese March Sales (Famitsu)
2/26 - 3/25

DS Lite - 504,015
Wii - 262,754 (1,953,633)
PSP - 190,000 (5M+, use 2 years and 4 months)
PS3 - 112,027 (812K)

1：Yoshi's Island DS（DS）- 455,391
2：Mousou Orochi（PS2）- 377,507
3：MHP 2nd（PSP）- 348,886 (1.09M, first million sale on PSP)
4：Gundam Mousou（PS3）- 248,761
5：SRW W（DS）- 246,457
6：Professor Layton（DS）185,263
7：ことばのパズルもじぴったんDS（DS）- 139,292
8：Wii Sports（Wii）- 133,334
9：Pokemon（DS）- 113,803
10：New SMB（DS）- 107,335

Wii Play 98,000 (1M+)

 

[Brak]

Japanese March Sales (Famitsu)
2/26 - 3/25

DS Lite - 504,015
Wii - 262,754 (1,953,633)
PSP - 190,000 (5M+, use 2 years and 4 months)
PS3 - 112,027 (812K)

1：Yoshi's Island DS（DS）- 455,391
2：Mousou Orochi（PS2）- 377,507
3：MHP 2nd（PSP）- 348,886 (1.09M, first million sale on PSP)
4：Gundam Mousou（PS3）- 248,761
5：SRW W（DS）- 246,457
6：Professor Layton（DS）185,263
7：ことばのパズルもじぴったんDS（DS）- 139,292
8：Wii Sports（Wii）- 133,334
9：Pokemon（DS）- 113,803
10：New SMB（DS）- 107,335

Wii Play 98,000 (1M+)

Cool, thanks. You'll have to add another week if you want to compare directly to NPD though.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

That's a myth anyway. Sony never really grew the market, and certainly didn't 'expand it greatly.'

In Japan they shrank it. And overseas they just united it. When the PS2 was released, the PS1 had still only sold about as many as the NES, despite having sold well in Europe (which the NES never did) and despite having a huge system failure rate (encouraging multiple purchases). You could claim that the PS2 grew the market, but with an even greater failure rate and weak competition, overall market growth was slanted in their favour.

The US market grew in dollars, and MTV etc were keen to play into the hype, but overall number of users two years ago was still only marginally greater then ten years ago.

You probably have a good point but I wouldn't bring up multiple console purchases as a negative for the PS1 and then compare it to NES. Blowing on the cartridges was just a mild technical difficulty. I had probably 3 NES. I would love for the people who remember to post how many NES' they went thru.

 

[Draft]

It's such bullshit to say Sony didn't expand the market. I know it's totally chic to hate them now and the Nfans are reveling in their newfound domination, but give credit where it's due. PlayStation and PlayStation 2 were very important, very good things for video games in general.

 

[Koren]

It's such bullshit to say Sony didn't expand the market. I know it's totally chic to hate them now and the Nfans are reveling in their newfound domination, but give credit where it's due. PlayStation and PlayStation 2 were very important, very good things for video games in general.

I agree, the really changed the way video games were seen during the SNES/Genesis era, especially in Europe. But I'm not sure they really expanded the market. If I'm not mistaken, the numbers of NES and PSOne in United States are very similar ?

 

[donny2112]

7：ことばのパズルもじぴったんDS（DS）- 139,292

Word Puzzle Mojipittan DS

I would love for the people who remember to post how many NES' they went thru.

1. I got it in 1988. I haven't played it in a year, though. Having the NES cleaning kit from Nintendo helps a lot. I've never had a system crap out on me from Nintendo, though the power brick of my N64 had to be replaced once.

Some March 19-25 Famitsu sales from creamsugar's numbers minus the previous week's numbers:

Yoshi's Island DS（DS) - 85,922
Mousou Orochi（PS2）- 377,507
Monster Hunter Portable 2(PSP) - ~36,000
Gundam Mousou（PS3）- 11,365
SRW W（DS）- 8,973
Word Puzzle Mojipittan DS - 61,070

 

[Cheesemeister]

7：ことばのパズルもじぴったんDS（DS）- 139,292

Word Puzzle Mojipittan DS.

EDIT: beaten. =P

 

[Pureauthor]

Sony changed the perception of gaming. They definitely drew in a lot of new gamers.

But you can bet your sweet September that when Sony changed the perception of gaming and what it stood for, a lot of gamers backed, off, shook their heads, and walked away as well.

... Kinda like what's going to happen if the Wii wins big.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

I wonder when is SCE planning to have a million seller coming from them on PSP or PS3. You know, they had 10 in PSX.