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[ShockingAlberto]

its not that Id hate 360 or ps3 or Jesus Christ himself if they used motion controls.

So what you're saying is you hate the PS3

 

[Stormbringer]

Sounds like a good thing I steered clear from that one.

Did you ever visited the official thread of the game ? If you were to read most of the really instructive impressions of GAFfers posted here (starting page 11), I can assure you that your opinion of the game would probably change.

 

[Terrell]

Reading Blue Ocean Strategy is *scary*.

I think everyone who fashions themselves a video game industry pundit does need to read it. It's written for busy executives, so it takes all of a few hours to go through it. And it's absolutely freaky how it illustrates why every one of the Wii's so-called "problems" are in fact crucial to its success.

The creepiest part of the whole thing is when it actually says point-blank that existing customers' needs will not be met by a blue ocean product, and that they might even go so far as to openly mock it.

That said, it's not like Nintendo went out, bought this book, then decided to restructure their company around it. Market-expanding products are as old as time, but the idea of a reliable strategy that you can execute to develop one -- not just leaving it to random chance -- is what's new.

When Nintendo talked this book up, they did it because it's an easy-to-digest distillation of the concept of disruptive technologies and market expansion (they always talked about The Innovator's Dilemma at the same time). It was never to suggest that they were themselves making this particular book the cornerstone of their company.

Yeah, it's not so much that Nintendo execs read this book and said "OH MAN, WE GOTTA DO THIS"... they probably wanted to do it anyways, but this book basically puts the strategy in basic terms in writing so that the public (or, to be more specific, the company's investors) has a firm grasp on what Nintendo is doing and hasn't actually lost their f***ing minds.
But even without the book, it's not rocket science... competitors are all doing the same thing for the individuals that are already part of the current marketshare, so why not do something to pick up everything and everyone else not being considered by the competitor's strategy? Truth be told, I think Nintendo didn't expect ANY response from the majority of the hardcore gamer sector this early in the Wii's sales cycle, hence why they have been unprepared for demand. The sales they're seeing are due to a lot of casual gamer interest and (just by looking at GAF) a LOT of hardcore gamers that Nintendo probably thought would write them off as irrelevant out of the gate.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

I see.

Well, does Blue Ocean say if game prices are allowed to drop? Because I know damn well 360 and PS3 games will drop in price eventually.

Depends on the game, really. A Blue Ocean game (Brain Training, Nintendogs) should start at a low price and stay there for ages. A normal hardcore game on the other hand (Zelda) will start at a premium price and drop eventually. That's not the point, however. The point is how not listening to the hardcore is the key to the success of a Blue Ocean strategy.

The best example in the book in my opinion, is that of the American wine industry. Teh hardcore wine drinkers like complicated flavours with tannins and oaks, subtle aromas and tried-and-true vinyards. There are rules to how you should enjoy wine and what kinds of wine you should drink. Wine drinkers demand more complicated flavours, better labelling and history behind their vinyards. All of this is offputting to your average beer drinker. They don't want to spend years developing a palate for full wine appreciation, so they don't touch the stuff. Consequently, wine drinkers were a shrinking market and wine makers were competing for a limited number of people.

Enter: [yellow tail]. By ditching all the stuff the hardcore wanted, they were able to make a very sweet wine on the cheap. Add to this the unintimidating label and 'fun' marketing tactics, they were able to sell wine to the pre-mixed cocktail and beer drinking crowd: thus growing the wine drinking market. [yellow tail], by ditching the hardcore, quickly became the best selling wine in the US, outselling even French and Italian imports.

 

[elostyle]

Are there more examples in the book? I'd appreciate it if you could just name a few.

 

[SovanJedi]

Depends on the game, really. A Blue Ocean game (Brain Training, Nintendogs) should start at a low price and stay there for ages. A normal hardcore game on the other hand (Zelda) will start at a premium price and drop eventually. That's not the point, however. The point is how not listening to the hardcore is the key to the success of a Blue Ocean strategy.

The best example in the book in my opinion, is that of the American wine industry. Teh hardcore wine drinkers like complicated flavours with tannins and oaks, subtle aromas and tried-and-true vinyards. There are rules to how you should enjoy wine and what kinds of wine you should drink. Wine drinkers demand more complicated flavours, better labelling and history behind their vinyards. All of this is offputting to your average beer drinker. They don't want to spend years developing a palate for full wine appreciation, so they don't touch the stuff. Consequently, wine drinkers were a shrinking market and wine makers were competing for a limited number of people.

Enter: [yellow tail]. By ditching all the stuff the hardcore wanted, they were able to make a very sweet wine on the cheap. Add to this the unintimidating label and 'fun' marketing tactics, they were able to sell wine to the pre-mixed cocktail and beer drinking crowd: thus growing the wine drinking market. [yellow tail], by ditching the hardcore, quickly became the best selling wine in the US, outselling even French and Italian imports.

You should realise (or, more precisely, be warned) Lapsed used the exact same analogy down to the word in a post of his a while back...

 

[AdmiralViscen]

You should realise (or, more precisely, be warned) Lapsed used the exact same analogy down to the word in a post of his a while back...

Post it.

 

[Mariah Carey]

Reading Blue Ocean Strategy is *scary*.

I think everyone who fashions themselves a video game industry pundit does need to read it. It's written for busy executives, so it takes all of a few hours to go through it. And it's absolutely freaky how it illustrates why every one of the Wii's so-called "problems" are in fact crucial to its success.

The creepiest part of the whole thing is when it actually says point-blank that existing customers' needs will not be met by a blue ocean product, and that they might even go so far as to openly mock it.

That said, it's not like Nintendo went out, bought this book, then decided to restructure their company around it. Market-expanding products are as old as time, but the idea of a reliable strategy that you can execute to develop one -- not just leaving it to random chance -- is what's new.

When Nintendo talked this book up, they did it because it's an easy-to-digest distillation of the concept of disruptive technologies and market expansion (they always talked about The Innovator's Dilemma at the same time). It was never to suggest that they were themselves making this particular book the cornerstone of their company.

Everything you said is spot-on, but... why is it scary? LOL

 

[NeonZ]

Here is lapsed's analogy:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5324769&highlight=yellow+tail+wine#post5324769

I don't think there's any similarity besides the fact that both are using the same book as a source...

Blue Ocean Strategy continues with an interesting example of the wine industry. The demand for wine had been flat but competition and supply resulted in price wars, overemphasising prestige on the bottles, and becoming intimidating to non-wine drinkers. Wine drinkers would debate over the subtle differences of taste that noncustomers couldn't grasp. If a noncustomer complained, the wine drinkes would stick out their pointy finger while sipping their elaborate drinks and declare the non-customers as unsophisticated.

A new wine designed to combat the problems of the industry called Yellow Tail was introduced. The wine was non-intimidating, cheaper, tried to be 'fun', and drew in non-customers. Many regular wine drinkers "went down" to Yellow Tail's level. But many wine drinkers did not and snorted dissatisfaction at it. They considered Yellow Tail as a 'non-wine'. As Yellow Tail exploded in popularity where the company couldn't keep up with the demand, these wine drinkers believed Yellow Tail would destroy the wine industry.

 

[lordmrw]

Everything you said is spot-on, but... why is it scary? LOL

Because it's almost as if the book predicted the exact response most People or "hardcore" gamers would have to the Wii, almost to a T. You only need to go into your average Wii thread to see the exact scenario in his second paragraph play out.

 

[mugwhump]

Sounds like a good thing I steered clear from that one.

No! Bad thing!

 

[Mariah Carey]

Because it's almost as if the book predicted the exact response most People or "hardcore" gamers would have to the Wii, almost to a T. You only need to go into your average Wii thread to see the exact scenario in his second paragraph play out.

Oh, I understand that the book outlines just about everything that's currently happening, I just don't see how that is scary. Maybe if the end of the book said that Blue Ocean Strategy eventually leads to the apocalypse or something I'd think it's scary...

EDIT: OK, now I'm thinking "scary" is meant to mean more like "uncanny/spooky" rather than impending doom or anything. If that's the case, then I get it now.

 

[AniHawk]

No! Bad thing!

It was either SSX or Sonic. And last I checked, Sonic was a platformer and SSX was an SSX game.

 

[Link]

Fascinating. But the ocean is not blue. It's made of water. Water is transparent.

Like your posts.

 

[Ikael]

It is scary because it shows how much predictable consumers are, and how similar "hardcore users of X product" are everywhere, as if we are made in series. Generally talking, everything that can predict the movement of the people's masses is scary.

 

[Mariah Carey]

How long do you think it'll take before the idea of Wii/ Blue Ocean being "capitalist weapons" that are going to destroy gaming culture and that gamers should support other systems for political, cultural, and moral reasons takes form? I think we're on our way there already. You see this kind of thing with a few film/ music snobs (though a lot of them don't quite use that terminology, that's pretty much what they argue), are we going to have "game snobs" in the future?

 

[Fuzzy]

It was either SSX or Sonic. And last I checked, Sonic was a platformer and SSX was an SSX game.

No matter which one you chose, you lose anyway.

 

[johnsmith]

are we going to have "game snobs" in the future?

What are you talking about? We have them now.

 

[Fuzzy]

What are you talking about? We have them now.

We've always had them.

 

[Branduil]

We've always had them.

I doubt I could count the game snobs on GAF alone with only two hands.

 

[Fuzzy]

I doubt I could count the game snobs on GAF alone with only two hands.

Maybe you could if you used your fingers as binary?

 

[Stumpokapow]

Maybe you could if you used your fingers as binary?

There are probably more than 512 game snobs online at GAF right now.

 

[Eteric Rice]

There are probably more than 512 game snobs online at GAF right now.

At least...

 

[Mariah Carey]

are we going to have "game snobs" in the future?

What are you talking about? We have them now.

We've always had them.

There's definitely some "snobby" gamers out there, but I don't think they're quite to the point I'm talking about. A couple steps have to happen first: 1) Videogames have to go mainstream, I mean really mainstream. 2) "Hardcore" gamers have to become disenfranchised. Wii is doing that (and to a certain extent one can argue the NES did it in the past), but I think it'll take another year or so before the reality sinks in. I'm waiting to see gamers judge the character of a person by what games they play--actually, now that I think of it, I have seen that happen on here, and it's scary and hilarious at the same time.

 

[Fuzzy]

There are probably more than 512 game snobs online at GAF right now.

You only have 9 fingers?

 

[Stumpokapow]

You only have 9 fingers?

Even if I did my original post would have been wrong, since the highest number you can represent with 9 fingers would be 511. My nerd-fu is weak.

 

[ethelred]

The right-most digit in a binary string represents 2^0, otherwise you'd never be able to represent odd numbers in binary.

You have 11 fingers?

You don't?

 

[Mar]

I'm waiting to see gamers judge the character of a person by what games they play--actually, now that I think of it, I have seen that happen on here, and it's scary and hilarious at the same time.

I judge people by what games they play all the time. There's nothing scary or hilarious about it at all. The things that people surround themselves with are usually what suits the type of person they are.

 

[Fuzzy]

Even if I did my original post would have been wrong, since the highest number you can represent with 9 fingers would be 511. My nerd-fu is weak.

I was originally going to ask if you only had the pinky on your left hand but decided not to.

 

[Mariah Carey]

I judge people by what games they play all the time. There's nothing scary or hilarious about it at all. The things that people surround themselves with are usually what suits the type of person they are.

Depends on how you're doing the judging, I suppose. If someone playing DDR makes you think of them as active or spontaneous and someone playing Hotel Dusk means that person is more quiet or patient, that's one thing (though personally I would still try to avoid making assumptions as much as possible), but if it gets to the point where one's taste in games leads to them being a perceived "shallow misguided Socialist/Capitalist tool that is probably a jerk and I want nothing to do with them," that's something completely different.

 

[Mar]

Depends on how you're doing the judging, I suppose. If someone playing DDR makes you think of them as active or spontaneous and someone playing Hotel Dusk means that person is more quiet or patient, that's one thing (though personally I would still try to avoid making assumptions as much as possible), but if it gets to the point where one's taste in games leads to them being a perceived "shallow misguided Socialist/Capitalist tool that is probably a jerk and I want nothing to do with them," that's something completely different.

I think that only matters to people who care what other people think of them. The games I love are very rarely loved by many other people, and people think I'm weird. But I don't care in the slightest and don't expect anyone to care what I think of them either.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Are there more examples in the book? I'd appreciate it if you could just name a few.

Gladly. Another example the book gives is that of the golf industry. Companies selling golf clubs have to compete for a limited number of dedicated golf players who buy multiple sets of clubs over their lifetimes. There is very little opportunity for growth in this industry because golf is seen as a difficult game – a perception that turns off many beginners. Just as with any entrenched red ocean industry, the hardcore are really hardcore and the noncustomers are turned off by complexity.

I can’t remember off the top of my head what the company’s name was, but someone came up with a bigger driver. The head of this thing was huge, allowing a beginner to hit a good drive despite not having developed the hand-eye coordination of experienced golfers.

Sales exploded as beginners saw this new driver as the answer to their golfing woes. The hardcore wouldn’t have liked this of course, seeing the ‘art’ taken out of their game. Many eventually came round of course, and the golf club sold to the hardcore as well.

There are many more examples in the book, of which I could probably name only 4 or 5 off the top of my head. Video game related, they talked about the Philips CD-i as an example of what not to do – it fails most of the criteria as to what makes a Blue Ocean product successful. What these criteria were, I couldn't tell you right now. I don't have the book with me.

Just out of curiosity, what did Lapsed say that made him take a holiday?

 

[grandjedi6]

Gladly. Another example the book gives is that of the golf industry. Companies selling golf clubs have to compete for a limited number of dedicated golf players who buy multiple sets of clubs over their lifetimes. There is very little opportunity for growth in this industry because golf is seen as a difficult game – a perception that turns off many beginners. Just as with any entrenched red ocean industry, the hardcore are really hardcore and the noncustomers are turned off by complexity.

I can’t remember off the top of my head what the company’s name was, but someone came up with a bigger driver. The head of this thing was huge, allowing a beginner to hit a good drive despite not having developed the hand-eye coordination of experienced golfers.

Sales exploded as beginners saw this new driver as the answer to their golfing woes. The hardcore wouldn’t have liked this of course, seeing the ‘art’ taken out of their game. Many eventually came round of course, and the golf club sold to the hardcore as well.

There are many more examples in the book, of which I could probably name only 4 or 5 off the top of my head. Video game related, they talked about the Philips CD-i as an example of what not to do – it fails most of the criteria as to what makes a Blue Ocean product successful. What these criteria were, I couldn't tell you right now. I don't have the book with me.

Just out of curiosity, what did Lapsed say that made him take a holiday?

Wait the book actually mentions the Cd-i.....thats so many forms of ironic :lol

 

[Mar]

Wait the book actually mentions the Cd-i.....thats so many forms of ironic :lol

What's ironic about it?

 

[Mariah Carey]

I think that only matters to people who care what other people think of them. The games I love are very rarely loved by many other people, and people think I'm weird. But I don't care in the slightest and don't expect anyone to care what I think of them either.

To use an example, it doesn't bother me that there are people out there that would judge me as a dumb or superficial person solely on the basis that I make commercial pop music (though making that assumption based on ditzy public appearances is another story), but that doesn't change the fact that I think these people are judgmental assclowns.

 

[Mariah Carey]

What's ironic about it?

Yeah, that's not really ironic. Ironic would be if it labeled the CD-i as a good example of Blue Ocean Strategy.

 

[TheKingsCrown]

To use an example, it doesn't bother me that there are people out there that would judge me as a dumb or superficial person solely on the basis that I make commercial pop music (though making that assumption based on ditzy public appearances is another story), but that doesn't change the fact that I think these people are judgmental assclowns.

are you insinuating you are mariah carey

 

[super funk]

are you insinuating you are mariah carey

I dont think she is insinuating because I dont know what that word means.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

are you insinuating you are mariah carey

You mean you're NOT Princess Zelda? Man, some people's kids

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Just out of curiosity, what did Lapsed say that made him take a holiday?

I think he was confident and direct in his writing, used good english, thought his posts out, and refused to participate in flame wars.

Yeah, that's not really ironic. Ironic would be if it labeled the CD-i as a good example of Blue Ocean Strategy.

Still not ironic, Mimi; just inane.

 

[super funk]

I think he was confident and direct in his writing, used good english, thought his posts out, and refused to participate in flame wars.Still not ironic, Mimi; just inane.

That bastard. If only GAF had less people like him and more like me, who dont actually say anything relevent in his or her posts and merely type unnecessary amounts of words without actually getting to a point while still maintaining an air of superiority (the length of the post helps this) and ultimately just creating a post that we in the industry like to call "fluff"; semicolons also help in making posts look much better than they actually are because most people dont actually know how to use a semicolon, so whenever they see one they think that the said person in use of the semicolon is much smarter.

Paragraphs are another good way to make others think you know what youre talking about. Paragraphs like this. With words and whatnot. Make sure you dont make youre paragraph too short, because then it doesnt look as fancy. A few more words and this should be good enough length. Yeah, this seems about right. Almost. Yeah, now.

Finally, this is the part that you actually put substance in your posts, but dont worry; since most people have already read through two unnecessary paragraphs, this doesnt need to be anything new. You can simply instead just reuse the same argument over and over again that you coincidentally stole from someone else, someone smarter, perhaps someone that uses a lot of semicolons.

In conclusion, we need more posters like Lapsed.

 

[grandjedi6]

What's ironic about it?

CD-i is noted for the release of several spinoffs of popular Nintendo video games featuring characters typically seen only on Nintendo consoles, although those games were not developed by Nintendo. Hotel Mario was a puzzle game that featured Super Mario Bros. characters. In addition, three Legend of Zelda games were released: Link: The Faces of Evil, Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon and Zelda's Adventure. The reason for this was that Nintendo and Philips had established an agreement to co-develop a CD-ROM enhancement for the Super Nintendo Entertainment System (after Nintendo and Sony broke a previous deal on an earlier add-on for said console), and Philips was contractually allowed to continue using Nintendo characters after the deal fell through.

Its ironic that what is probably Nintendo's greatest screw-up (the SNES CD project and the CD-i licensing) is used as an example in the book Nintendo keeps using as why their plan is right and will work

 

[naranjito]

Its ironic that what is probably Nintendo's greatest screw-up (the SNES CD project and the CD-i licensing) is used as an example in the book Nintendo keeps using as why their plan is right and will work

can you read?

 

[Jammy]

Its ironic that what is probably Nintendo's greatest screw-up (the SNES CD project and the CD-i licensing) is used as an example in the book Nintendo keeps using as why their plan is right and will work

I think you need to re-read what was said after the words "CD-i."

 

[Great Rumbler]

Its ironic that what is probably Nintendo's greatest screw-up (the SNES CD project and the CD-i licensing) is used as an example in the book Nintendo keeps using as why their plan is right and will work

The CD-i was an example of what DOESN'T work.

 

[Muppet345]

Its ironic that what is probably Nintendo's greatest screw-up (the SNES CD project and the CD-i licensing) is used as an example in the book Nintendo keeps using as why their plan is right and will work

:lol

 

[chibcicylist]

There's definitely some "snobby" gamers out there, but I don't think they're quite to the point I'm talking about. A couple steps have to happen first: 1) Videogames have to go mainstream, I mean really mainstream. 2) "Hardcore" gamers have to become disenfranchised. Wii is doing that (and to a certain extent one can argue the NES did it in the past), but I think it'll take another year or so before the reality sinks in. I'm waiting to see gamers judge the character of a person by what games they play--actually, now that I think of it, I have seen that happen on here, and it's scary and hilarious at the same time.

Oh trust me, they're here.

"Nintendo fans are sheeeeep omfg, like they would buy anything Nintendo throws out them even if its shitty shit", sounds familiar? Not the exact quote but you get my drift.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Oh trust me, they're here.

"Nintendo fans are sheeeeep omfg, like they would buy anything Nintendo throws out them even if its shitty shit", sounds familiar? Not the exact quote but you get my drift.

Then you have the graphics whores. Check this out.

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=25518233&page=0

Read the posts by ChiefFreeman, he is the incarnation of everything I hate about gamers.

 

[grandjedi6]

Its ironic that what is probably Nintendo's greatest screw-up (the SNES CD project and the CD-i licensing) is used as an example in the book Nintendo keeps using as why their plan is right and will work

Bleh, sorry I miswrote that. I meant more of how its ironic how Nintendo is indirectly connected to both a failure and success of the Blue Ocean Theory....yeh my post didn't come out right at all :/

 

[linsivvi]

So why isn't the Blue Ocean Strategy Training released on the NDS yet?