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[soundwave05]

The Wii is winning because Wii Sports is a killer app and Nintendo has done a good job of linking the DS' broader audience strategy to the Wii with their radically different controller.

There's a reason why Wii Sports is the no.1 game in Japan.

The GameCube was always much cheaper than the PS2 in Japan ... never helped that system a lick over there. The PS3 Core package in Japan isn't actually all that more expensive than the PS2 was when it initially launched in Japan ... and the Core PS3 comes with a 20GB HDD ... the PS2 came with nothing.

 

[Deku]

Don't you meant PS1 domination, which is the system that most consoles sold?

As a percentage of marketshare, FC and NES had over 90% globally.

This was at a time when the industry wasn't very mature and marketshares like that were possible. I'm not going to say it will never happen but PlayStation never achieved this kind of dominance.

 

[Parl]

Oh I didn't? Dude how can you say that when we even argued about it? ME and YOU!
This is you in response to me saying:


To which I responded to reiterate my point:

Look I admitt when I am wrong, it happens to everyone but what I don't do is lie. Or perhaps you don't even bother reading what people actually write in here?

As far as the bolded part. That''s funny, how can I attribute the success of the DS to its brand, and brand alone, when my initial argument started with:


You're right. People don't do well with generalizations.

I'm one of the few who will respond to you who actually understands what you're saying, although it doesn't mean I agree that your point is a big factor when it comes to how this console war is gonna turn out.

You're essentially saying that brand, whilst still having bearing, it isn't THAT important. But the recent history of the market, especially one of domination over attempts of competition, plays on public perceptions, and thus, could make an impact on sales, at least initially.

What you're saying is that DS came off of the back of GameBoy, so dominant that even with DS' massive success, GBA has still lost market share (this statement is nothing more or nothing less than to highlight how dominant the GBA was). Except, Wii is coming off the back of GameCube, a distant second to the Japanese public.

But when we're talking about perception, I think it's myopic to think in such a way. PlayStation Portable came off the back of PS2 - not a portable, but when it comes to perceptions, it most certainly helped it to not become N-gage. Third parties supported it because of they thought a more technological advanced product is obviously a more widely entertaining product - like the rest of the silly human beings on this Earth). Each individual will say "Everybody will just buy a PS3, but I'm gonna wait, just in case", which says a lot.

I think public perception does bias people a lot though. PlayStation 3 will most certainly have the most unwarrented positive perceptions, which WILL lead to more sales, but not too much.

 

[cartman414]

I think one company that the DS and Wii will make an impact on is Atlus. They're really shaping up to be a good company. Not to mention they publish those odd games that get cult followings.

A little LttP, huh? They already have been a good company. I just hope they don't jump the shark by any means.

 

[fresquito]

If you design a game for the DS, you keep in mind the power of the system. You're not pretending to do a PS2 game on the DS, just a DS game. Which in fact, ends being more simple to develop than a PS2 game.

You know, if you're doing a tech masterpiece, you will have to struggle to get the max free ram as you can to update refresh and to put more triangles on screen, that's gona be hard, but if you're developing a PS2 game and are trying the same, you're going to suffer too.

You know, it's all about the design. A PS2 game can be as simple as a DS game, and you will get out better graphics than doing the same code on the DS. If you're using this rule, then yes, DS it's the worse system to develop for! But now in market sense, you can't do just a Brain Training's cost game and try to oversell Final Fantasy.

Like in the example done, Wining Eleven... Perfect Striker was far better than this Winning Eleven DS, and it's not by the system because DS is fairly better than the N64, it's just because the art and the design of the game is worse.

I dunno why Konami just didn't port Perfect Striker

Easier and harder are relative to what developement tools a developer has. And case in point, every dev has PS2 tools, and good ones, for the matter. The same cannot be said about the DS. So, no, you're wrong, for the average developer, it's easier to do a good job on the PS2 than it is on the DS, where only skilled teams have gotten good results.

 

[soundwave05]

Easier and harder are relative to what developement tools a developer has. And case in point, every dev has PS2 tools, and good ones, for the matter. The same cannot be said about the DS. So, no, you're wrong, for the average developer, it's easier to do a good job on the PS2 than it is on the DS, where only skilled teams have gotten good results.

I agree. IMO this is why devs like Namco, Capcom, Sega, etc. can do better on the Wii than the DS as well. Franchises like Winning Eleven, Soul Calibur, Resident Evil, Virtua Cop, Time Crisis, Ridge Racer, etc. can be more easily translated to the Wii than doing a DS version of those titles.

 

[Eteric Rice]

its not just virtua fighter 5, its all the games i mentioned put together, that could determine its fate. you cant win a console race with just one good game.
btw what do you mean dmc4 is looking bleak to you?

I can't tell you exactly. But I read an article with an interview from the developers of DMC4. Basically, they're making the game a lot easier because they expect new fans. The new main character isn't Donte, but looks almost exactly like him (again, because they expect a new audience). And they also said they've ditched the old weapons system or something.

I don't have high hopes for it. It sounds like they're really screwing with a proven formula (Hi DMC3) when they didn't need to.

 

[elostyle]

If you design a game for the DS, you keep in mind the power of the system. You're not pretending to do a PS2 game on the DS, just a DS game. Which in fact, ends being more simple to develop than a PS2 game.

You know, if you're doing a tech masterpiece, you will have to struggle to get the max free ram as you can to update refresh and to put more triangles on screen, that's gona be hard, but if you're developing a PS2 game and are trying the same, you're going to suffer too.

You know, it's all about the design. A PS2 game can be as simple as a DS game, and you will get out better graphics than doing the same code on the DS. If you're using this rule, then yes, DS it's the worse system to develop for! But now in market sense, you can't do just a Brain Training's cost game and try to oversell Final Fantasy.

Like in the example done, Wining Eleven... Perfect Striker was far better than this Winning Eleven DS, and it's not by the system because DS is fairly better than the N64, it's just because the art and the design of the game is worse.

I dunno why Konami just didn't port Perfect Striker

You know, a lot of designers struggle with this and have a hard time coming up with handheld appropriate design. Plus, they unlearned the details neccessary that make simpler games stand out over the years. Thus, as originally posted, it's hard for third parties.

Not to mention that artists seemingly don't learn how to pixel anymore. 1024x1024 true color texture painting in photoshop is what they are familiar with. It is not easy to make 64x64 textures with 16 colors and have it actually look ok without filtering. Many have also unlearned how to properly conserve resources, blowing the budget left and right due to being inexperienced on low resource machines.

Programmers suffer equally. It's not a good sign that you have to explain new guys why it's a bad idea to allocate all your memory off the main heap all the time. Why STL can be evil. How to deal with low memory and severe fragmentation. Not even having an underlaying OS at all.

It's a different realm with different challenges.

 

[tanasten]

As a percentage of marketshare, FC and NES had over 90% globally.

This was at a time when the industry wasn't very mature and marketshares like that were possible. I'm not going to say it will never happen but PlayStation never achieved this kind of dominance.

Marketshares isn't really important. It's just relative when a company is losing it's ground in front of others companys, like when Sega take part of Nintendo's Market, or when PS1 Stolen the market and created its own.

It's clever to say that Nintendo owned 90% of the gaming market. That percentatge was important to see how later Nintendo lossed its market, but in the case of the Nintendo DS or the Wii, Nintendo will be recovering it's market share and expanding it, maybe not the NES marketshare which isn't anymore Nintendo's marketshare, but the GameCube Marketshare.

When drawing all the industry, market share is only relative to improvements or market capacity. You know, Nintendo can double it's market share but if Sony stays with the same, Sony wouldn't lose it's marketshare, just Nintendo gained.

NES era was 90%, of a 90 billions systems market? (I don't remember) That was a great amount of systems, and of course, third parties had nowhere to go to make profit.

I'm shared now. Tipo off.

 

[Eteric Rice]

A little LttP, huh? They already have been a good company. I just hope they don't jump the shark by any means.

I guess a better choice of words would have been "more well known." Hardly anyone knows who Atlus is, but I think that will change this generation.

Trauma Center has especially given it a lot of recignition.

 

[tanasten]

You know, a lot of designers struggle with this and have a hard time coming up with handheld appropriate design. Plus, they unlearned the details neccessary that make simpler games stand out over the years. Thus, as originally posted, it's hard for third parties.

Not to mention that artists seemingly don't learn how to pixel anymore. 1024x1024 true color texture painting in photoshop is what they are familiar with. It is not easy to make 64x64 textures with 16 colors and have it actually look ok without filtering. Many have also unlearned how to properly conserve resources, blowing the budget left and right due to being inexperienced on low resource machines.

Programmers suffer equally. It's not a good sign that you have to explain new guys why it's a bad idea to allocate all your memory off the main heap all the time. Why STL can be evil. How to deal with low memory and severe fragmentation. Not even having an underlaying OS at all.

It's a different realm with different challenges.

I agree with you on this, having to deal with the problems of a more limited system is harder than having a lot of memory to waste. But as I said, if you want to explode the system and make a competitive game, you are going to struggle with ram problems and so.

I have been developing for mobile phones, games with 64k and that's painful for the developer and for the artist because they had to struggle with the memory issue. But when you have develop a game or two, you're used to work with that limits, and the results can be good enought.

I was proud of how Club Football 2006 end being. I had a hard work with it and I love how we did a better gameplay game than most of the 16 bit era games! and that was just with 2 programmers and one artist and a game designed to play on mobile phones, that was played with directional keys and only one single button for passing/shooting/stealing the ball...

Of course, we wanted to expand the game, adding things and so... but to be true, it was more a time constraint that a capacity problem.

Easier and harder are relative to what developement tools a developer has. And case in point, every dev has PS2 tools, and good ones, for the matter. The same cannot be said about the DS. So, no, you're wrong, for the average developer, it's easier to do a good job on the PS2 than it is on the DS, where only skilled teams have gotten good results.

The PS2 dev tools hasn't been good never right at the start, Xbox and Cube we're far better ones. And the system wasn't easy to develop for. Was like going back to the 8 bit era for some coders.

I don't know how eficient are right now the DS development platforms, but I know from a lot of developers that the system is fine to develop for, and that's more than the PS2 firts days kits performance. You only have to keep in mind the system you're working on, know how it works, and develop it on the shorter way.

 

[Deku]

Marketshares isn't really important. It's just relative when a company is losing it's ground in front of others companys, like when Sega take part of Nintendo's Market, or when PS1 Stolen the market and created its own.

It's clever to say that Nintendo owned 90% of the gaming market. That percentatge was important to see how later Nintendo lossed its market, but in the case of the Nintendo DS or the Wii, Nintendo will be recovering it's market share and expanding it, maybe not the NES marketshare which isn't anymore Nintendo's marketshare, but the GameCube Marketshare.

When drawing all the industry, market share is only relative to improvements or market capacity. You know, Nintendo can double it's market share but if Sony stays with the same, Sony wouldn't lose it's marketshare, just Nintendo gained.

NES era was 90%, of a 90 billions systems market? (I don't remember) That was a great amount of systems, and of course, third parties had nowhere to go to make profit.

I'm shared now. Tipo off.

It's important when you have 90% because essentially developers don't really have a choice when working in an industry with such a dominant player.

What's happening now, even if 360 and Wii succeeds beyond their respective manufacturer's wildest imaginations will be a more balanced type of situation. Even when the PlayStation dominated with the PSone and PStwo, it had closer to 70% dominance.

And you have a point, with a larger market, projects become more viable on platforms with smaller markershares.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Excuse me but guys, I have question. Are you really this thick or do you preffer to ignore what my point is simply because it suits your argument?

It's actually kind of sad that some of you are creating a counter-argument that's not really a counter-argument at all. What he said about the DS outselling the GBA is TRUE. I would never argue against it. The idea that you can lose market share and be more successfull is also TRUE and I would never argue against this either.

In fact I NEVER did.

My point was never the DS is losing market share therefore it's doing worse than its predecessors.

This is the point you guys are arguing against, yet this is a statement I have NEVER made.

Why take the time and energy to argue against something fictional. Something I don't believe, something I actually AGREE WITH YOU ON?

My point was Nintendo has had pretty much a monopoly with hand-helds, like no one else, and that probably contributed some to the DS's success.

If you're going to argue against me, at least argue against me. Not against something I didn't say.


And the argument with the NES is another one of those statements....without looking into the WHY?

Nintendo didn't dominate anyone with the NES. It was the FIRST ever mass market videogame system. That's like saying FORD dominated the cars back in the mid 1900's because they were the first to make the best assembly line.

 

[Eteric Rice]

I agree with you on this, having to deal with the problems of a more limited system is harder than having a lot of memory to waste. But as I said, if you want to explode the system and make a competitive game, you are going to struggle with ram problems and so.

I have been developing for mobile phones, games with 64k and that's painful for the developer and for the artist because they had to struggle with the memory issue. But when you have develop a game or two, you're used to work with that limits, and the results can be good enought.

I was proud of how Club Football 2006 end being. I had a hard work with it and I love how we did a better gameplay game than most of the 16 bit era games! and that was just with 2 programmers and one artist and a game designed to play on mobile phones, that was played with directional keys and only one single button for passing/shooting/stealing the ball...

Of course, we wanted to expand the game, adding things and so... but to be true, it was more a time constraint that a capacity problem.

You know, I think in some areas, games took a hit when they entered the 3D realm. 2D (SNES, Genesis) was truely a work of art. I'm still wowed by stuff like Final Fantasy VI (SNES) and many other games from that era.

I also realized that with games back then, cities were cities. You could enter just about any building you wanted, and there was always something there. I remember the tavern in the second city (or third, I forget) in Final Fantasy VI, and it's awesome. It was really like a bar. Now adays, many doors are just textures on a wall. There's nothing behind them.

And Chrono Trigger... Wow...

Castlevania is also another one that is at it's best in 2D.

 

[tanasten]

It's important when you have 90% because essentially developers don't really have a choice when working in an industry with such a dominant player.

What's happening now, even if 360 and Wii succeeds beyond their respective manufacturer's wildest imaginations will be a more balanced type of situation. Even when the PlayStation dominated with the PSone and PStwo, it had closer to 70% dominance.

And you have a point, with a larger market, projects become more viable on platforms with smaller markershares.

So it's important for third parties, publishers, retailers and so. We agree

(lots of love and blooms)

You know, I think in some areas, games took a hit when they entered the 3D realm. 2D (SNES, Genesis) was truely a work of art. I'm still wowed by stuff like Final Fantasy VI (SNES) and many other games from that era.

I also realized that with games back then, cities were cities. You could enter just about any building you wanted, and there was always something there. I remember the tavern in the second city (or third, I forget) in Final Fantasy VI, and it's awesome. It was really like a bar. Now adays, many doors are just textures on a wall. There's nothing behind them.

And Chrono Trigger... Wow...

Castlevania is also another one that is at it's best in 2D.

Just because 3D requires more ram, more faster cpu's and also, because needs a lot more work to keep a 3D world alive than a 2D world. Keep in mind any 3D zelda. Why is the world small? surely, to keep this level of alive and interaction in the world.

But again, isn't as much as the tech was limiting the 3D zeldas to be huge worlds, but more and time reestriction. Doing a game design offers unlimited posibilites to trick. Just try not to be buggy!

Edit: Below there lies another non-sense post. Beware hurting your feeling while reading it.

 

[Novid]

The Devs are not going to go anywhere.

I think that there spread too thin.

BUT here is the thing, SE hasnt done much outside of 5 new games based on FF-DQ. In the early days of the DS, The third parties WERE VERY open to Both PSP and DS, BUT they couldnt sell on the DS as well as Brain Training or NintyDogs- where as they could sell BETTER on the PSP.

Now, as the DS does gangbusters, they not making any moves. Reason is what I stated above, they are spread too thin. Japan isnt going to jump into the HD market because even DVD's are high priced. The market wants smaller products such as phones and the like, and the DS fits it. NOW this can change with Blu-Ray in the future costing LESS than DVD over its life time, and the TV market lessing the price of even a good 1080P TV, but as of right now, It would not change my habits nor the habits of the Devs.

Remember, Sony was able to give the Devlopers back in 1996; creative freedom, and lower licencing fees. That is still somewhat true today, as Ninty ONLY changed the WAY people play the game but not the actual content. If Ninty of the 80's reared its ugly head again (Higher Fees in Japan, Content in the states) if people start moving to the DS, then the Devs will have been foolish both on a creative and economic standpoint.

 

[soundwave05]

DSlite:

Wii:

PSP:

PS3:

PS2:

Xbox 360:

I just noticed this :lol

 

[Novid]

You know, I think in some areas, games took a hit when they entered the 3D realm. 2D (SNES, Genesis) was truely a work of art. I'm still wowed by stuff like Final Fantasy VI (SNES) and many other games from that era.

I also realized that with games back then, cities were cities. You could enter just about any building you wanted, and there was always something there. I remember the tavern in the second city (or third, I forget) in Final Fantasy VI, and it's awesome. It was really like a bar. Now adays, many doors are just textures on a wall. There's nothing behind them.

And Chrono Trigger... Wow...

Castlevania is also another one that is at it's best in 2D.

I think that was one good thing about the 2D era. The RPG's Square and Enix made (and some lesser ones) had heart and talent, and Chrono Trigger/Xenogears/Chrono Cross were the last great ones...suprisngly Dark Cloud 2 and DQ8 is as close as we will get to something like those three, both made by Level 5...

 

[jarrod]

He claims that Game Boy DOMINATED the handheld market like no console has (including the NES as a result of the Master System, according to him), but:

Game Boy sold 70 million worldwide
Game Gear sold 8 million worldwide

The NES sold 60 million worldwide
The Master System sold 13 million worldwide

So Jimbo is obviously full of shit because the Nintendo, thanks to the NES, had as much a stranglehold on the console race as they did in the handheld race.

Actually, it was moreso... Game Boy essentially had 2 distinct lifespans, only the first of which was directly positioned against Game Gear. In the period over which GG moved 8m units (the 16bit console gen), GB moved about 40m... the later 30m came after VB imploded, and the platform was redesigned and refocused on with GB pocket and pokemon leading the way (the 32/64bit gen).

This is not true. There are a few obvious second rate attempts such as Tales of Tempest, but a game like Trauma Center: Second Opinion or Contact are very high quality games that just get completely overshadowed.

Er... except both your examples actually exceeded their expectations. That's not quite "overlooked" really. :/

what even amazes about the wii is that looking at the 2007 wii line up, compared to the ps3 it doesnt look that impressive. i mean the ps3 has ninja gaiden sigma, dmc4,mgs4,unknown realms,vf5, gudam musou. now all these games are potential sellers.

I dunno... is that really more impressive than DQ Swords, Mario Party 8, Mario Galaxy, Brain Academy, SSBB, FFCC2, Biohazard UC, Naruto GNT EX, Powapro 14, Boku Sims, Hoshi no Kirby, Super Paper Mario and Fire Emblem IX in terms of Japanese market impact? You think those PS3 games will sell better overall?

 

[Ash Sparrow]

Is Wii ahead of what GC was doing numberswise by this same time in its lifespan

 

[Eteric Rice]

Is Wii ahead of what GC was doing numberswise by this same time in its lifespan

I believe so.

 

[Branduil]

Is Wii ahead of what GC was doing numberswise by this same time in its lifespan

By a few hundred thousand, yes.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

When's the official numbers release?

 

[Fuzzy]

When's the official numbers release?

They were cancelled. MC has gone out of business.

 

[Xeke]

By a few hundred thousand, yes.

Isn't it something like it has already sold 30% of the GC LTD in Japan?

 

[AniHawk]

They were cancelled. MC has gone out of business.

Sorry about that, guys.

 

[Ash Sparrow]

By a few hundred thousand, yes.

brillant, good job Nintendo

 

[Heidir]

Wii 93,708
DSL 89,287
PSP 48,804
PS3 25,531
PS2 22,663
Xbox360 9,035
GBM 1,959
GBASP 1,547
GC 611
GBA 79
DS 41

 

[flipping_heck]

Wii - 93,708
DS Lite - 89,287
PSP - 48,804
PS3 - 25,531
PS2 - 22,663
Xbox 360 - 9,035
Gameboy Micro - 1,959
GBA SP - 1,547
Gamecube - 611
GBA - 79
DS - 41

No wais!!!DS has been knocked off its throne

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Damn, so it was even WORSE?

 

[Busaiku]

Wii 93,708
DSL 89,287
PSP 48,804
PS3 25,531
PS2 22,663
Xbox360 9,035
GBM 1,959
GBASP 1,547
GC 611
GBA 79
DS 41

Oh snap.

 

[Leonsito]

Wii 93,708
DSL 89,287
PSP 48,804
PS3 25,531
PS2 22,663
Xbox360 9,035
GBM 1,959
GBASP 1,547
GC 611
GBA 79
DS 41

1st Wow) Wii>DS
2nd Wow) PSP sales
3rd Wow) PS3 sales

 

[duderon]

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLY SHEEEEEEET

Anihawk, what have you done??

 

[duckroll]

Only 400k PS3s left on Japanese shelves now... I expect PS3s to be sold out by Summer! :lol

 

[Jonnyram]

Wow, I guess the Famitsu numbers were higher after all!

 

[Link]

Oh boy....

 

[AniHawk]

 

[Jammy]

Well, if ever a system deserved to knock off the DS for top spot, that system would be the Wii. I believe DS numbers are just due to shortages. Then again, there's shortages of Wii everywhere, too.

PS3... I said "wow."

 

[charlequin]

PS3 25,531

 

[Elios83]

LOL OMG ^^''

DS shortage?
PSP comeback in Japan confirmed?
PS3 bomba?
Xbox360 back to dead?

:lol :lol

 

[TTP]

Media Create | Famitsu

Wii - 93,708 | 96k (diff. -3k~)
DS Lite - 89,287 | 110k (diff. -21k~) wtf
PSP - 48,804 | 45k (diff. +3k~)
PS3 - 25,531 | 34k (diff. -9k~)
PS2 - 22,663 | 24k (diff. -2k~)
Xbox 360 - 9,035 | 9k (diff. null~)

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Media Create | Famitsu
Wii - 93,708 | 96k
DS Lite - 89,287 | 110k
PSP - 48,804 | 45k
PS3 - 25,531 | 34k
PS2 - 22,663 | 24k
Xbox 360 - 9,035 | 9k

edit: Duh, nevermind

 

[Souldriver]

And just when you think it gets boring...BAM!

Wow at Wii (dethroning DSlite)
Wow at PS3 (well, you know)

 

[duderon]

LOL OMG ^^''

DS shortage?
PSP comeback in Japan confirmed?
PS3 bomba?
Xbox360 back to dead?

:lol :lol

Protip: PSP was higher last year.

 

[VOOK]

I for one Welcome our new Overlord the Wii

 

[starship]

Wii 93,708
DSL 89,287
PSP 48,804
PS3 25,531
PS2 22,663
Xbox360 9,035
GBM 1,959
GBASP 1,547
GC 611
GBA 79
DS 41

For some fun:

From the software sales, I dont think that DS was the best selling hardware last week.
Mine:

Wii 98k
DS 90k
PS3 45k
PSP 33k
PS2 22k
X360 7k

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5353408&postcount=137

 

[Leonsito]

DS beats PSP for the first time in this time of the year.

2nd week of January

2005

PSP: 64.602
DS: 53.527

2006

PSP: 57.686
DS: 54.284

2007

PSP: 48.804
DS: 89.287

 

[meltpotato]

honestly, pretty impressed by the PSP numbers.. would be nice to see the 360 hover around 10k for a while, but thats unlikely at best.

 

[Jasoncheng]

MediaCreate-Ranking
http://www.m-create.com/jpn/s_ranking.html

TOP50
NDS:29
PS2:7
Wii:7
PSP:4
PS3:2
GBA:1

 

[splattergnome]

What are the major game releases coming out in the next weeks - particularly those for PS3 and Wii, which could change the playing field a bit?