Support NeoGAF

[Eteric Rice]

Japan in general is pretty bad off right now. I'm not really surprised to see the PS3 ahead right now, considering the games it's had earlier this year.

Will probably remain that way unless there's a big surprise or something.

 

[Spiegel]

Wii will have Little King's Story (30K). So there

Having potential 100k+ sellers is no joke.

Wii/PS3 don't have too many of them.

 

[schuelma]

Having potential 100k+ sellers is no joke.

Wii/PS3 don't have too many of them.

The only other Wii one I see is maybe Super Robot Wars Neo, but from what I've read its an odd duck spin off so it probably won't do that well. SD Gundam could do it, but I'm sure everyone will buy the identical PS2 version.

I do think Taiko Wii 2 is a lock and that will probably do really well.

 

[Opiate]

Just try to tell me that if every major PS360 third-party title had a competent Wii version in Japan that the Wii wouldn't be way ahead in third-party sales in Japan. You don't need to say "whatever the reason," when you know the reason.

I'm not trying to tell you that. I'm trying to tell you that in reality, this didn't happen.

Let's take Final Fantasy as an obvious example. Should FF XIV/XV/etc. be on the Wii? No. Why? Because FFXIII will have already established the franchise on the Playstation 3, and it would be silly to put your fanbase on the PS3 only to tell them to shift over to the Wii mid-generation.

Should they have put FFXIII on the Wii in the first place? Maybe. It is certainly understandable why it wasn't put there before the generation began. Who saw the Wii coming? In hindsight it may have been an (understandable) mistake, but in reality this is what happened. Final Fantasy XIII was not made for the Wii. Metal Gear Solid 4 was not made for the Wii. Devil May Cry 4 was not made for the Wii. All of those games we know began production before the generation began.

In reality, all of this has already happened, a opposed to a "if they had put these games on the Wii from the start" world. And thus, in reality, it now makes sense for many (but not all) of these franchises to continue on the system for which they've spent hundreds of millions of Yen establishing their base.

Ifs and buts, Donny.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

As long as games that will sell a few hundred K are being mentioned, I'd say not to forget continued sales of Taiko no Tatsujin.

And whilst i'm in the mood for predicting things:
Blazeblue 40,000~
Alchemy Atelier RORONA Bachelor of ARANDO 28,000~

Are these first week or total predictions?

 

[Koren]

So the Wii has sold vastly less third party software than the PSP (Which isn't too surprising) but has also sold less third party software than the PS3, which is surprising considering install bases. I'm quite sure Donny will jump in here and remind me of the disparity in quality of third party releases on the respective platforms, a point of contention which (once again) I am not arguing. Whatever the reason, third parties have established themselves better on the PS3 than the Wii thus far.

While it's obviously true, the total software on the PS3 clearly benefits from the big hitters. ~50% of the 8M 3rd-party games is just for the 3rd-party top10. If you remove this top10 for both consoles,you'll get 4.3M 3rd party games on Wii, 4.1M on PS3.

Of course, I'm playing with numbers, but it's a complex subject. Move MGS and the result *may* (I won't say will) be different. And while *some* developpers sell more on PS3 because of, to an extent, some big licenses, I'm not sure it's the case for all of them, far from that.

 

[frankie_baby]

I was a little sceptical about mh3 doing astronomical numbers although i always believed it would take the biggest home console 3rd party seller of this gen at the time title but thats not saying much however it really does seem to be building in momentum and it now wont suprise me if it gets close to a million just on its first week

 

[schuelma]

I was a little sceptical about mh3 doing astronomical numbers although i always believed it would take the biggest home console 3rd party seller of this gen at the time title but thats not saying much however it really does seem to be building in momentum and it now wont suprise me if it gets close to a million just on its first week

I doubt it will do that well, but I think a 500K 1st week/1 million + LTD should be expected.

 

[Opiate]

While it's obviously true, the total software on the PS3 clearly benefits from the big hitters. ~50% of the 8M 3rd-party games is just for the 3rd-party top10. If you remove this top10 for both consoles,you'll get 4.3M 3rd party games on Wii, 4.1M on PS3.

Of course, I'm playing with numbers, but it's a complex subject. Move MGS and the result *may* (I won't say will) be different. And while *some* developpers sell more on PS3 because of, to an extent, some big licenses, I'm not sure it's the case for all of them, far from that.

This seems to be a recurring theme, so let me just makes this absolutely clear.

I am not suggesting that the Wii has some magical, anti-third-party-selling property. Obviously that's not the case. That's irrational.

What I am suggesting, though, is that the big hitters (as you put it) are already on the PS3. Whether they should have been put there in the first place is now irrelevant: it already happened.

The question for the present day world, then, is whether it's worth spending a great deal of money converting your audience from PS3-centric to Wii-centric mid-generation, or if it's better to simply lie in the (shitty) bed you've made. My answer is that, for most, it's going to be better to lie in bed, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

 

[schuelma]

What I am suggesting, though, is that the big hitters (as you put it) are already on the PS3. Whether they should have been put there in the first place is now irrelevant: it already happened. .

Not all of them are.

 

[Opiate]

Not all of them are.

(Covers ears) Lalalalalalalalala!



You're right, of course. It's possible I'm wrong and that Monster Hunter will lead the way. I doubt it, personally, but it's possible.

DQX is so far away it's not reasonable to comment on.

 

[Eteric Rice]

This seems to be a recurring theme, so let me just makes this absolutely clear.

I am not suggesting that the Wii has some magical, anti-third-party-selling property. Obviously that's not the case. That's irrational.

What I am suggesting, though, is that the big hitters (as you put it) are already on the PS3. Whether they should have been put there in the first place is now irrelevant: it already happened.

The question for the present day world, then, is whether it's worth spending a great deal of money converting your audience from PS3-centric to Wii-centric mid-generation, or if it's better to simply lie in the (shitty) bed you've made. My answer is that, for most, it's going to be better to lie in bed, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

Hopefully other franchises come to the Wii if FF cannot.

 

[schuelma]

(Covers ears) Lalalalalalalalala!



You're right, of course. It's possible I'm wrong and that Monster Hunter will lead the way. I doubt it, personally, but it's possible.

DQX is so far away it's not reasonable to comment on.

DQX is far away, yes, but its clear that the Dragon Quest franchise isn't coming back to the Playstation anytime soon. When DQX does hit, its going to be on the Wii, and it follows that other DQ games (DQ:S 2? DQ remakes?) will also be on the Wii.

And if you really want to get into semantics, the Samurai Warriors and Tales franchise have mainline games for Wii announced and not for PS3 (though those franchises seem much more tenuous in terms of any exclusivity).

My only point is I don't think its really fair to say PS3 has all the big Japanese centric franchises when 2 of the top 3 are Wii bound.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

What I am suggesting, though, is that the big hitters (as you put it) are already on the PS3. Whether they should have been put there in the first place is now irrelevant: it already happened.

It's not like there aren't examples of companies trying to change things mid-generation, though. Capcom got stuck with REmake/0/4 at least temporarily exclusive on GCN, but they tried to milk what they could from PS2 with exclusive Gun Survivors and Outbreaks. Really not so different from this generation but reversed.

Final Fantasy is less platform-exclusive now than ever, so it's completely possible for some other large project (like Crystal Bearers) to come along without conflicting with XIII/XIV any more than Dissidia or Tactics.

 

[birdchili]

other DQ games (DQ:S 2? DQ remakes?) will also be on the Wii.

this seems hugely likely. i'm not sure how much you need to "build an audience" for a mainline dq game, but having x announced for wii changes the game a bit for the salability of rpgs on the platform. it seems like fairly easy money to make some lower-budget dq-branded games in the interim.

 

[Opiate]

DQX is far away, yes, but its clear that the Dragon Quest franchise isn't coming back to the Playstation anytime soon. When DQX does hit, its going to be on the Wii, and it follows that other DQ games (DQ:S 2? DQ remakes?) will also be on the Wii.

And if you really want to get into semantics, the Samurai Warriors and Tales franchise have mainline games for Wii announced and not for PS3 (though those franchises seem much more tenuous in terms of any exclusivity).

My only point is I don't think its really fair to say PS3 has all the big Japanese centric franchises when 2 of the top 3 are Wii bound.

I agree. I'm also a very big believer in umbrellas: that is, a select few games draw in an audience to a particular platform, and the rest of the titles bathe in the wealth as fans of game [X] look for more [X]-like games to play (this doesn't even necessarily even need to be the same genre. I think Dissida benefitted from the MH crowd, for example). I genuinely believe it would take 30+ Tales-esque titles to equal the pull a single FF game has for increasing install base. Wii Sports and Wii Fit are games that fit that description. So is Monster Hunter. So is DQ, but until I see something on the plate that looks like it's launching within, say, a year, I don't have much to comment on.

I think my argument would be that too many umbrellas have already been opened on the PS3 (specifically, Metal Gear, Dynasty Warriors, Yakuza, Resident Evil) and FF XIII has been anticipated for so long it might as well have been. In comparison, MH to Wii was a surprise and will really be the first Umbrella title to launch on the Wii.

We'll see. Again, I think it's too late, but I certainly could be wrong.

 

[Eteric Rice]

I agree. I'm also a very big believer in umbrellas: that is, a select few games draw in an audience to a particular platform, and the rest of the titles bathe in the wealth as fans of game [X] look for more [X]-like games to play (this doesn't even necessarily even need to be the same genre. I think Dissida benefitted from the MH crowd, for example). Wii Sports and Wii Fit are games that fit that description. So is Monster Hunter. So is DQ, but until I see something on the plate that looks like it's launching within, say, a year, I don't have much to comment on.

I think my argument would be that too many umbrellas have already been opened on the PS3 (specifically, Metal Gear, Dynasty Warriors, Yakuza, Resident Evil) and FF XIII has been anticipated for so long it might as well have been. In comparison, MH to Wii was a surprise and will really be the first Umbrella title to launch on the Wii.

We'll see. Again, I think it's too late, but I certainly could be wrong.

I really have a hard time believing in the "to late" thing after I seen what Sony did to the PSP just recently. Umbrellas poping up everywhere.

Nintendo just needs to stop sitting around and push. Wheel and deal.

Like they did with Tetris back in the day.

 

[donny2112]

Ifs and buts, Donny.

You completely missed the point. You tried to say that for "whatever the reason" as if the reason was unknown or inconsequential. The actual reason is neither unknown nor inconsequential. The reason that the PS3 is ahead of the Wii in third-party sales in Japan is that the third-parties have essentially tried their hardest to make it that way. To then act surprised that they were even a little successful in that endeavour is just plain silly. :lol

 

[Opiate]

You completely missed the point. You tried to say that for "whatever the reason" as if the reason was unknown or inconsequential. The actual reason is neither unknown nor inconsequential. The reason that the PS3 is ahead of the Wii in third-party sales in Japan is that the third-parties have essentially tried their hardest to make it that way.

I do think the reason is largely inconsequential, yes. I do not believe most publishers care that the PS3 has done better because it has received considerably better support; I think they care that it's done better. Let me explain why.

Your basis for this argument was, again, that "if third party publishers had supported the Wii from the start, etc. etc." which again I largely agree with. Things would be quite different now.

But my point is that this didn't happen, and things are the way they are, and now the question is what third parties should do next. There is not ample evidence to suggest that switching over to the Wii is hugely beneficial. In fact, the available empirical data suggests exactly the opposite. What you are suggesting is conjecture -- reasonable conjecture, but only that. You have no real evidence to support your claim, because your argument is based on conditionals that did not occur. Do I think it could have been different? Absolutely. Not only is it possible, it's probable. And yet, that's still just a guess. What is not a guess, and is in fact hard data, are the sales numbers which show the PS3 third party software outselling Wii third parties.

And again, I strongly suspect that most major publishers will be significantly more interested in the empirical data than conjecture or conditional, no matter how reasonable those conjectures may be.

 

[sphinx]

I'm not entirely sure how EoT was a scam. It was a stupid move, because most people got it on the DS instead, but how was it a scam? I think the brand never really meant much to begin with, so it really DOES depend on gameplay and advertising. Aside from that it depends on how well received the game is to begin with. If gamers aren't interested, then it will bomb hard, because it seems a little wacky and random, and maybe a bit too experimental. If it catches on though, it could sell well, like any game that catches on because of strong word of mouth, etc.

it all goes back to the original FF:CC on gamecube. Gamers back then expected something, they got what in their opinion was a piece of shit.

the point is the ff:CC games are supposed to attract the RPG lover, diehard S-E fanboys and that's just not gonna happen because they all know FF:CC is synonym of cheap, lousy gameplay (even if it's not).

FF:CC:TCB is handicapped and will sell less than it could purely because of the name it bears.

 

[Spiegel]

This seems to be a recurring theme, so let me just makes this absolutely clear.

I am not suggesting that the Wii has some magical, anti-third-party-selling property. Obviously that's not the case. That's irrational.

What I am suggesting, though, is that the big hitters (as you put it) are already on the PS3. Whether they should have been put there in the first place is now irrelevant: it already happened.

The question for the present day world, then, is whether it's worth spending a great deal of money converting your audience from PS3-centric to Wii-centric mid-generation, or if it's better to simply lie in the (shitty) bed you've made. My answer is that, for most, it's going to be better to lie in bed, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

I've said it before, those big japanese/Playstation franchises are jumping to PSP and not Wii
PSP is getting the games that Wii should be getting

Examples:

Square Enix: Mainline Final Fantasy spinoff, Kingdom Hearts, Parasite Eve
Sega: A sequel to J-League Pro Soccer Club (one of their biggest japanese IP on PS2) was announced this week
Capcom: Sony made a big deal about Resident Evil PSP and it's suppossedly made by Capcom Japan, + New Monster Hunter
Konami: MGS3 sequel made by Kojima
Namco: Soul Calibur, Tekken

Chances for the Wii to make a comeback are slim now, when psp support is getting stronger than ever.

Although we'll see if I'm wrong in the next months leading to the TGS

 

[duckroll]

it all goes back to the original FF:CC on gamecube. Gamers back then expected something, they got what in their opinion was a piece of shit.

the point is the ff:CC games are supposed to attract the RPG lover, diehard S-E fanboys and that's just not gonna happen because they all know FF:CC is synonym of cheap, lousy gameplay (even if it's not).

FF:CC:TCB is handicapped and will sell less than it could purely because of the name it bears.

I'm not entirely sure I follow this.

FFCC on the Gamecube was a multiplayer action RPG. People expected that, and they got it. It didn't sell particularly bad.

The next FFCC game was Rings of Fate on the DS, which was also a multiplayer action RPG, and sold pretty damn well.

Then they released Echoes of Time, which is also a multiplayer action RPG, but they decided to put the DS version on the Wii at the same time. People expected the Wii version to look like the DS one blown up on a larger TV screen, so they all bought the DS version instead. A tiny fraction of people bought it because they actually wanted to play a DS game on a TV screen with a controller instead.

Next up was FFCCMLAAK on WiiWare, and by most accounts even though it's a sim instead of a RPG, most people liked it, and while we don't get sales figures for WiiWare, it's enough that they're making another WiiWare FFCC game.

So, where's the "scam" and where is the evidence that "RPG gamers" in Japan equate FFCC with "cheap, lousy gameplay?" Or is this all coming out of your ass?

 

[donny2112]

Your basis for this argument was, again, that "if third party publishers had supported the Wii from the start, etc. etc."

No. I simply used that to show the reason why PS3 third-party sales are above Wii third-party sales is a definite known in this equation, and it is hardly a small matter. Therefore to act surprised or to try to dismiss this reason is just silly to me.

What is not a guess, and is in fact hard data, are the sales numbers which show the PS3 third party software outselling Wii third parties.

And again, I strongly suspect that most major publishers will be significantly more interested in the empirical data than conjecture or conditional, no matter how reasonable those conjectures may be.

Another piece of empirical evidence that you are extremely well-versed in is the bottom lines at these companies. I happen to think that piece of empirical evidence may just be enough to remove the delusion that PS3 third-party sales in Japan vs. the Wii third-party sales in Japan indicate that more strong third-party support for the PS3 is highly justified based on Japan alone.

I'm honestly confused as to why you're even trying to put forward the idea that sticking with the PS3 is the best route for third-parties in Japan. It just doesn't make sense, looking only at Japan.

 

[schuelma]

I've said it before, those big japanese/Playstation franchises are jumping to PSP and not Wii
PSP is getting the games that Wii should be getting

Examples:

Square Enix: Mainline Final Fantasy spinoff, Kingdom Hearts, Parasite Eve
Sega: A sequel to J-League Pro Soccer Club (one of their biggest japanese IP on PS2) was announced this week
Capcom: Sony made a big deal about Resident Evil PSP and it's suppossedly made by Capcom Japan, + New Monster Hunter
Konami: MGS3 sequel made by Kojima
Namco: Soul Calibur, Tekken

Chances for the Wii to make a comeback are slim now, when psp support is getting stronger than ever.

Although we'll see if I'm wrong in the next months leading to the TGS

I think that's a stretch. I'll give you SE (though I'm convinced Wii will be getting more DQ support leading up to DQ X). Sega? I don't know..J-league as your best example? I'm not quite sure what Sega is doing, but it seems to be they've given DS and PS3 a lot of love.

Capcom? RE PSP is a nice announcement, but you have Monster Hunter on the Wii for the forseeable future (unless MH Tri completely bombs) and RE: DC coming up as well.

Konami? I'll kind of give you that, since they haven't done anything notable for the Wii, but MGS3 sequel isn't exactly a stretch given Portable Ops.

Namco? Disagree with you there. Wii is the one getting the mainline Tales game, Taiko Wii is a legitimate hit, and they've given Wii a lot of mid range stuff.

I agree that PSP is hurting the Wii (I've been arguing that for a while), but I think you're overstating things a bit.

And I also think its way premature to label chances as "slim" given what your own system of choice has done since late 2007. Now, if the big 3rd party games Wii has coming out this year bomb, then I think we can say 3rd party support is never going to increase. But until we see those games, I think its way way premature.

 

[donny2112]

Parasite Eve

I may just be remembering incorrectly, but didn't Square Enix drop the Parasite Eve name from the game? Something about licensing issues, I thought.

 

[Sage00]

I may just be remembering incorrectly, but didn't Square Enix drop the Parasite Eve name from the game? Something about licensing issues, I thought.

That's right. It's called 'The Third Birthday' but still retains the characters and story of the series.

 

[duckroll]

I'm honestly confused as to why you're even trying to put forward the idea that sticking with the PS3 is the best route for third-parties in Japan. It just doesn't make sense, looking only at Japan.

I don't really think that's exactly what he's saying. What he's saying is that for the big hitters that have sold on the PS3 in Japan, those developers will no doubt stay on the PS3. As far as major franchises are concerned there's a very real risk of shifting to the Wii and getting less sales.

Let's look at the 2 biggest PS3 franchises at the moment - MGS and Ryu ga Gotoku.

I don't think there's any question that MGS will find itself going backwards in hardware, simply because the fans have come to expect a certain standard from the franchise. Going multiplatform on 360 and PS3 is the only way for a franchise like this. It's the same reason why FFXIII isn't on the Wii or DS, but DQIX is on the DS and DQX will be for the Wii. Because DQ does not have those expectations attached, while FF does.

Ryu ga Gotoku on the other hand, has one installment come out every year. 2 for the PS2, and 2 for the PS3, and they've all sold well. It's the most successful new IP in a long time, and definitely Sega's most successful new IP in recent history. If Sega suddenly moves RgG4 to the Wii, is there any guarantee that it would sell much more than 500k? Is it worth the risk of moving development to the Wii and changing bases, when they can make each new PS3 installment in a year, and still sell several thousand units?

That's what I -think- he's trying to say, but hey I could be wrong!

 

[ksamedi]

No. I simply used that to show the reason why PS3 third-party sales are above Wii third-party sales is a definite known in this equation, and it is hardly a small matter. Therefore to act surprised or to try to dismiss this reason is just silly to me.



Another piece of empirical evidence that you are extremely well-versed in is the bottom lines at these companies. I happen to think that piece of empirical evidence may just be enough to remove the delusion that PS3 third-party sales in Japan vs. the Wii third-party sales in Japan indicate that more strong third-party support for the PS3 is highly justified based on Japan alone.

I'm honestly confused as to why you're even trying to put forward the idea that sticking with the PS3 is the best route for third-parties in Japan. It just doesn't make sense, looking only at Japan.

Pretty much. Third parties have failed miserably on the PS3. There is no denying that. Their games cost much more to make, yet they sell less. If that isn't enough 'hard data' I don't know what is.

 

[schuelma]

That's what I -think- he's trying to say, but hey I could be wrong!

Yeah, and that makes perfect sense, especially for those properties that rely on selling well in the Western markets as well.

 

[schuelma]

Pretty much. Third parties have failed miserably on the PS3. There is no denying that. Their games cost much more to make, yet they sell less. If that isn't enough 'hard data' I don't know what is.

If we're talking about the big franchises released in the last year or so, I think they're doing just fine on the HD systems. MGS4, Yakuza, DMC4, RE5 have all done just fine. If I haven't built up that audience yet I'd still think hard about the Wii, but if the audience is there and the engine is built, I see no compelling reason to move to the Wii.

 

[ksamedi]

If we're talking about the big franchises released in the last year or so, I think they're doing just fine on the HD systems. MGS4, Yakuza, DMC4, RE5 have all done just fine. If I haven't built up that audience yet I'd still think hard about the Wii, but if the audience is there and the engine is built, I see no compelling reason to move to the Wii.

Really? All those titles probably made much less profit for their respective companies than they did on the PS2. Yakuza is one example of a title selling 500K yet it only broke even. Not a bad thing of course but I think the higher ups at Sega are not too pleased.. People seem to forget that the cost of developing these games have grown astronomically yet the user base has shrunk. Especially if were talking Japan.

 

[schuelma]

Really? All those titles probably made much less profit for their respective companies than they did on the PS2. Yakuza is one example of a title selling 500K yet it only broke even. Not a bad thing of course. People seem to forget that the cost of developing these games have grown astronomically yet the user base has shrunk. Especially if were talking Japan.

Ok, but now the engine is made. The audience is in place. Does it make sense to put the next installment on the Wii? I really don't think it does.

 

[kassatsu]

Japanese PSOne Game Archives Top 10

Week of June 25th

1. Final Fantasy VII International
2. Final Fantasy Tactics
3. Metal Gear Solid
4. Grandia
5. Zeus II Carnage Heart
6. Xenogears
7. Saga Frontier
8. Biohazard 3 Last Esacpe
9. Ore No Shikabane Wo Koete Yuke
10. Saga Frontier 2

 

[ksamedi]

Ok, but now the engine is made. The audience is in place. Does it make sense to put the next installment on the Wii? I really don't think it does.

I don't think those franchises belong on the Wii either. I think its an issue of effort. Donny is trying to say that a good effort is more rewarding on the Wii than on the PS3. Thats what I believe too. Costs are lower and potential return is higher. MH3 will prove this.

 

[Sage00]

If we're talking about the big franchises released in the last year or so, I think they're doing just fine on the HD systems. MGS4, Yakuza, DMC4, RE5 have all done just fine. If I haven't built up that audience yet I'd still think hard about the Wii, but if the audience is there and the engine is built, I see no compelling reason to move to the Wii.

Why not do both? I think there's a great argument to follow Capcom's approach. With all systems having some share of the market this gen unlike PS2's domination I'm not sure it makes much sense to have "Every Yakuza/MGS/etc on PS3, because that's where the Yakuza/MGS/etc fans are, and they'll all flock to that platform". I'm sure there are plenty of Yakuza/MGS/etc fans who have a Wii and would love to have the games purely because of the way the PS2 userbase split this gen.

Look at RE5 - great selling game on PS3. Then look at RE4Wii, REUC, etc - great selling games on Wii. I don't see why we couldn't have Yakuza 3 on PS3 and Yakuza Kenzan on Wii. MGS Rising on PS3 and MGS Peace Walker on Wii.

Tales of Graces on Wii a few months after Tales of Vesperia on PS3 should be a good test to see if this theory holds any truth.

The only way to cater to the PS2 userbase this gen is to cater to all the consoles and handhelds. You can't drive them to any console, not Wii, not PS3. It's impossible.

 

[sphinx]

I'm not entirely sure I follow this.

FFCC on the Gamecube was a multiplayer action RPG. People expected that, and they got it. It didn't sell particularly bad.

The next FFCC game was Rings of Fate on the DS, which was also a multiplayer action RPG, and sold pretty damn well.

Then they released Echoes of Time, which is also a multiplayer action RPG, but they decided to put the DS version on the Wii at the same time. People expected the Wii version to look like the DS one blown up on a larger TV screen, so they all bought the DS version instead. A tiny fraction of people bought it because they actually wanted to play a DS game on a TV screen with a controller instead.

Next up was FFCCMLAAK on WiiWare, and by most accounts even though it's a sim instead of a RPG, most people liked it, and while we don't get sales figures for WiiWare, it's enough that they're making another WiiWare FFCC game.

So, where's the "scam" and where is the evidence that "RPG gamers" in Japan equate FFCC with "cheap, lousy gameplay?" Or is this all coming out of your ass?

back then, when Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles was announced, people got excited because a nintendo console would receive an epic, beautiful, highproduction-bigbudgeted with an amazing gameplay final fantasy game. The backlash this game got upon release was astounding, people were pissed off because it was a casual game with little substance, nothing comparable to mainline FFs. FF:CC on gamecube went on to have a solid performance, I think it even was a million seller (not sure) somewhere (US or japan? ). SE did a smart move when they moved the series to the DS, where the fanbase is bigger and smaller budget games don't have as big a backlash as with the consoles. DS is not the same as Wii, specially on the third party selling department so I wouldn't use any DS successes to support an argument about a wii, retail, boxed game, even when speaking about the same series.

My point is, had Square-enix taken care of the series back then with the gamecube and made a better overall experience with more effort put into it, the FF:CC brand would be much stronger than it is today. We would be talking about a possible million seller whereas predictions indicate the game will only reach ~300k LTD (right? or are expectations even bigger?) if it succeeds. Maybe I will be proven wrong when sales arise but so far, my prediction is that it will sell like the DS games at best and bomb with under 100k at worst. IMO, that's because it has " Crystal bearers " in its title, yeah you don't have to agree with me on that though.

and how can you be supportive of echoes of time on Wii?? it was a DS game packaged as a Wii game, you really like that?

 

[schuelma]

Why not do both? I think there's a great argument to follow Capcom's approach.

Yeah I think that's a good idea.I don't think it makes sense for any company to put all their eggs in one particular basket this gen.

 

[Opiate]

No. I simply used that to show the reason why PS3 third-party sales are above Wii third-party sales is a definite known in this equation, and it is hardly a small matter. Therefore to act surprised or to try to dismiss this reason is just silly to me.



Another piece of empirical evidence that you are extremely well-versed in is the bottom lines at these companies. I happen to think that piece of empirical evidence may just be enough to remove the delusion that PS3 third-party sales in Japan vs. the Wii third-party sales in Japan indicate that more strong third-party support for the PS3 is highly justified based on Japan alone.

This is a reasonable argument. So reasonable that I almost made it myself, despite the fact that I'm effectively arguing in opposition of this conclusion.

It is, however, why I kept admitting that I could eventually be proven wrong. If I do end up being wrong, I believe it will largely be a consequence of the profitability of these PS3 franchises -- regardless of their sales -- was lower than desired.

 

[schuelma]

Alright, group hug everyone.

On another note, WSR predictions? I think 300K or so first week, hardware bump up to 40K or so.

 

[duckroll]

back then, when Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles was announced, people got excited because a nintendo console would receive an epic, beautiful, highproduction-bigbudgeted with an amazing gameplay final fantasy game. The backlash this game got upon release was astounding, people were pissed off because it was a casual game with little substance, nothing comparable to mainline FFs. FF:CC on gamecube went on to have a solid performance, I think it even was a million seller (not sure) somewhere (US or japan? ). SE did a smart move when they moved the series to the DS, where the fanbase is bigger and smaller budget games don't have as big a backlash as with the consoles. DS is not the same as Wii, specially on the third party selling department so I wouldn't use any DS successes to support an argument about a wii, retail, boxed game, even when speaking about the same series.

Okay you know what, that's just a load of crap. If you want to generalize that everyone who was interested in FFCC seriously expected it to be like a a mainline FF, then I don't know what to say. The idea that everyone buying it ignored months of previews and trailers and promotional stuff, and just expected it to be like FFX and got "scammed" is just..... hilarious to me.

My point is, had Square-enix taken care of the series back then with the gamecube and made a better overall experience with more effort put into it, the FF:CC brand would be much stronger than it is today. We would be talking about a possible million seller whereas predictions indicate the game will only reach ~300k LTD (right? or are expectations even bigger?) if it succeeds.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore. The FFCC series was never intended to be about making huge budget standard RPGs. It sounds to me like you don't like or want the FF:CC brand, and you would instead just want mainline FFs on the GC and Wii. But instead of saying that, you're trying to construct this huge imaginary argument where the people buying FFCC games are apparently not happy with them and equate them with cheap crappy gameplay and production values, which is hardly the case.

Maybe I will be proven wrong when sales arise but so far, my prediction is that it will sell like the DS games at best and bomb with under 100k at worst. IMO, that's because it has " Crystal bearers " in its title, yeah you don't have to agree with me on that though.

So you think it will bomb because it has "Crystal Bearers" in its title, when..... the name of the franchise you're bashing is Crystal Chronicles. Great job proving that you're talking out of your ass. Let's say it bombs, if that's because it has FFCC in its name, what does that mean for all the other Wii RPGs which have bombed even worse so far? Is it because they don't have FFCC in the name?

and how can you be supportive of echoes of time on Wii?? it was a DS game packaged as a Wii game, you really like that?

I don't think this has anything to do with what I like. I don't even LIKE the FFCC series, but when I look at branding and sales, it's important to be somewhat detached and see how the market is reacting to something and what the fanbase that that platform and brand want. I'm not supportive of the idea, I'm just saying it's not a scam. It is a choice for consumers, and that can never be a scam. The game was never marketed as anything OTHER than a DS game that would run on the Wii and be able to play online with DS and Wii gamers.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Where is the big effort from 3rd parties on PS3? If you mean extremely shitty support is bigger than downright no support, yeah, somehow, but its still shitty.

Last time I checked PS3 is over 3 years old and Square-Enix has published one game on it (007!) and they have no more in sight yet. That was usually the biggest 3rd party.

You'd have to look lower in the hardware charts to see who has the biggest support of the endangered species called domestic consoles.

 

[Sage00]

I'm gonna go for the low end. 240k for WSR, 29k for Wii.

 

[Spiegel]

I think that's a stretch. I'll give you SE (though I'm convinced Wii will be getting more DQ support leading up to DQ X). Sega? I don't know..J-league as your best example? I'm not quite sure what Sega is doing, but it seems to be they've given DS and PS3 a lot of love.

Capcom? RE PSP is a nice announcement, but you have Monster Hunter on the Wii for the forseeable future (unless MH Tri completely bombs) and RE: DC coming up as well.

Konami? I'll kind of give you that, since they haven't done anything notable for the Wii, but MGS3 sequel isn't exactly a stretch given Portable Ops.

Namco? Disagree with you there. Wii is the one getting the mainline Tales game, Taiko Wii is a legitimate hit, and they've given Wii a lot of mid range stuff.

I agree that PSP is hurting the Wii (I've been arguing that for a while), but I think you're overstating things a bit.

And I also think its way premature to label chances as "slim" given what your own system of choice has done since late 2007. Now, if the big 3rd party games Wii has coming out this year bomb, then I think we can say 3rd party support is never going to increase. But until we see those games, I think its way way premature.

My point is that the games that we are getting in 2009/10 were started/greenlighted in a time when Wii was killing everything (minus Ds) and third party development didn't massively shift to Wii. Now the console is not doing so hot, big budget games are doing fine on PS3 and lately more companies are announcing more ps2-type games to its closest competitor on development costs and profit (psp).



RE. Are you expecting third parties to wait and see how those big budget games do?
Well, 2012 will be a good year for Wii then.

 

[Opiate]

Does anyone have a list of the 10 biggest franchises on the PS2? Get rid of multiple FFs and DQs, as I'm sure that would make the list much less interesting. I'm also not looking for a sum (as in FFX+X-2+XI+XII) but individual games. That is, I want a list of the ten franchises on the PS2 that had the biggest individual game success on the PS2.

I'd assume DQ, FF, MGS, and DMC are all on that list. Yakuza may be as well.

Anyone? I'm absolutely awful at using JJ's search tool

 

[schuelma]

My point is that the games that we are getting in 2009/10 were started/greenlighted in a time when Wii was killing everything (minus Ds) and third party development didn't massively shift to Wii. Now the console is not doing so hot, big budget games are doing fine on PS3 and lately more companies are announcing more ps2-type games to its closest competitor on development costs and profit (psp).
.

I think you saw some high profile stuff started (Monster Hunter, Tales, Samurai Warriors) when the Wii had the momentum, but in between waiting for those games a lot of the mid tier stuff has either been kept on PS2 or moved to PSP. I think if those high profile games do well, those ps2-style games that I'm sure don't take as long to develop could come to the Wii.

 

[Spiegel]

Does anyone have a list of the 10 biggest franchises on the PS2? That is, get rid of multiple FFs. I'm also not looking for a sum (as in FFX+X-2+XI+XII) but individual games. That is, I want a list of the ten franchises on the PS2 that had the biggest individual success on the PS2.

I'd assume DQ, FF, MGS, and DMC are all on that list. Yakuza may be as well.

Anyone? I'm absolutely awful at using JJ's search tool

1.Dragon Quest
2.Final Fantasy
3.Gran Turismo
4.Dynasty Warriors
5.Kingdom Hearts
6.Winning Eleven
7.Hot Shots Golf
8.Samurai Warriors
9.Onimusha
10.Fist of the North Star (Pachinko game)
11. Metal Gear Solid
12. Gundam

I think you saw some high profile stuff started (Monster Hunter, Tales, Samurai Warriors) when the Wii had the momentum, but in between waiting for those games a lot of the mid tier stuff has either been kept on PS2 or moved to PSP. I think if those high profile games do well, those ps2-style games that I'm sure don't take as long to develop could come to the Wii.

Noted

 

[duckroll]

Does anyone have a list of the 10 biggest franchises on the PS2? Get rid of multiple FFs and DQs, as I'm sure that would make the list much less interesting. I'm also not looking for a sum (as in FFX+X-2+XI+XII) but individual games. That is, I want a list of the ten franchises on the PS2 that had the biggest individual game success on the PS2.

I'd assume DQ, FF, MGS, and DMC are all on that list. Yakuza may be as well.

Anyone? I'm absolutely awful at using JJ's search tool

In Japan, third parties only?

DQ, FF, KH, Dynasty Warriors, Winning Eleven, Onimusha, MGS, DMC, Yakuza all come to mind.

 

[Dascu]

Since we're on the topic of 3rd party support in Japan, what system do you guys reckon SMT4 will come out on?

 

[Sage00]

Anyone have any idea how that FOTNS Pachislot game sold over 900k, or is that a mistake? Was it a hardware bundle or something? It seems insane.

 

[Opiate]

Thanks Duck/Spiegel.