Well, our violent crime rates are actually going down, but the enormous number of people in our shitty prison system isn't thought to be the main cause of that. In fact, states with smaller increases in prison population actually saw bigger reductions in crime.
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Mentally Retarded Man to be Executed in Texas, May 13 [Stay of Execution]
- Thread starter Brakke
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Well, our violent crime rates are actually going down, but the enormous number of people in our shitty prison system isn't thought to be the main cause of that. In fact, states with smaller increases in prison population actually saw bigger reductions in crime.
The Rachel Maddow show has been on this of late and has detailed a lot of the back story regarding the compounded labs and why they are being used. It goes back to the fact that the drug making companies (mostly European) are now refusing to sell their drugs for the purpose of killing others.
As a result, the states are looking to come up with their own drug cocktails and the reason why we don't know where the drug came from is because these states passed laws barring that information going public. This information is kept from the public NOT because of fear of retribution but because no drug maker wants to be the poster-boy for executions.
The short of it is, these deaths are being done with non-tested methods...they are human guinea pigs.
I've never had a strong position when it comes to the death penalty but I would prefer to see it abolished because (in my opinion) living behind bars until you die would be a far harsher sentence.
The thing with me is that I wonder to myself If I can ever get over this? I always have this feeling that if i'm not mourning my mother i'm disgracing her memory. I'm 31 so i guess i'm at the halfway of my life and i'm afraid the other half is going to be constant pain and i'm just afraid that i will never be able to enjoy things properly again until i die.
What's a Fanderpuffy?
Nah, I'm kidding. It sounds like we agree, and I was being flippant and dickish without cause. I kinda just don't want to get into it on GAF, lol.
..and you're sort of right...it was an uncle, you all-knowing snake! I was young though, and luckily it didn't have any sort of lasting psychological impact on me.
Societal pressures are really what stops anyone from doing anything they want to, yes. If anyone knew they could do literally anything with no consequence bad shit would happen a lot more than it already does. Morality is a social construct, it's not some inherent thing imbued upon mankind that other animals lack or anything. Sure, we'd band together for safety, but we would regard anyone outside of our immediate family group as we'd regard any other animal most likely.
Anyway, I don't have a problem with any of this. Sorry that he's got a 5th grade level of thinking, but in 5th grade I didn't want to rape and murder people either. I'd actually argue that he's less likely to understand what was wrong with what he did if that's the justification behind him doing it in the first place (and if it isn't, then it's an irrelevent point and this is REALLY just a thread about capital punishment).
MisterAnderson
Member
Until you are wrongly accused for murder and are then executed? I'm not sure your plan would work in that case.
I don't see how many people can support capital punishment once they learn the facts.
It costs significantly more to put somebody on death row than to put them in prison for life.
Innocent people have been killed with our capital punishment system
There's no evidence that it's a good deterrent for crime
Our judicial system is incredibly racist and the death penalty conviction is pretty arbitrary - what makes one murderer worthy of a death penalty over another?
Our prison system is already messed up as is, capital punishment only adds to the clusterfuck.
It costs significantly more to put somebody on death row than to put them in prison for life.
Innocent people have been killed with our capital punishment system
There's no evidence that it's a good deterrent for crime
Our judicial system is incredibly racist and the death penalty conviction is pretty arbitrary - what makes one murderer worthy of a death penalty over another?
Our prison system is already messed up as is, capital punishment only adds to the clusterfuck.
Don't go to that place. Nobody who loves you would want to see you in endless grief. You honor her memory by remembering her life, the stories you may tell your kids/neices/nephews/friends about her and living your life to the fullest. Every happy moment and move forward you make honors her. So go through life finding happiness, don't stand still in pain. That's what people who love you want for you in life and death.
Fenderputty
Banned
People do it anyway. We incarcerate more people than China and they have over three times or population.
Stahsky
A passionate embrace, a beautiful memory lingers.
It's gonna sting for a while, man. But as cheesy as it is, time will help heal those wounds. Don't be afraid to open up to people if you need someone to talk to. There's plenty of nice guys on GAF, so long as you steer clear from the usual minefield threads.
The absolutely best thing you can do for her, is to make her proud. She wouldn't want you wasting away. She'd want you happy and healthy. =)
I don't think I have ever read that study in my years studying criminology. Do you have a link to it? How was that study even conducted? It sounds very interesting.
Crime has two parts: the behavior and the social definition. At the end of the day society decides how much crime there is. The crime rate in the US is a reflection of how many activities are labeled criminal, victimless or otherwise.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
Yup. it generally costs 2.5-5 times more to put someone to death vs. life without parole.
Good post, you're absolutely correct.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Nope. No sympathy here. Don't really care if you're "mildly" mentally retarded if you robbed, raped and murdered someone and then went about pawning the murder victims clothing, jewelry and driving around in their car after the fact.
I don't even know in these cases its right to blame the pharmacy so much as it is whoever is coming up with the drug cocktail for the lethal injection or whoever is injecting the prisoner. In cases like the Oklahoma one, I don't think its as simple as the pharmacy making one syringe that the prison injects, its like 2 or 3 different drugs that aren't that uncommon in a hospital setting. Its just using them together to knock the person out and then stop their heart where it gets shady.
nailbombxx
Member
The title made me assume that he was being executed for being mildly retarded.
A quick breakdown from that last statements page:
Code:
White 231
Black 190
Hispanic 92
Other 2
Total 515http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/death_row/dr_executed_offenders.html
Wikipedia's racial demographics from 2010's Census:
The breakdown is a bit meaningless. It is important to remember the problem lies within the cases where death penalty wasn't chosen as the penalty despite it being a possibility for the crime committed.
Edit: Considering your edit, we're probably agreeing with each other.
Now compare that to Texas's population. (via the 2012 Census)
White 80.6%
Black 12.3%
Hispanic 38.2%
Asian 4.2%
The percentages for those executed are
White 44.8%
Black 36.8%
Hispanic 17.8%
The death penalty disproportionately affects African-Americans. The numbers you link to prove that.
MisterFalcon
Member
Note that while 12,3% of the population is black at least 32% of murderers are (5,071 out of 15,807 murders in Texas 2000-2010).
http://projects.wsj.com/murderdata/#view=all&geo=TX
ambientmystic
Member
Yep, what a misleading title. Brought back memories of the eugenics programs prior to the 1960s.
32% of convicted murderers, you mean.
The Albatross
Member
FWIW, I don't think that this is the result of the death penalty being permitted or not, but the result of much higher incarceration numbers amongst African Americans, proportional to population.
I'm not in favor of the death penalty (and I'm not trying to prove or disprove a point either of you are making), but I believe that the numbers above are more representative of the relative disparity in death penalty rates for African Americans than anything else. Also these numbers are old, but still representative of the trend.
King Cobra
Banned
FWIW, I don't think that this is the result of the death penalty being permitted or not, but the result of much higher incarceration numbers amongst African Americans, proportional to population.
I'm not in favor of the death penalty (and I'm not trying to prove or disprove a point either of you are making), but I believe that the numbers above are more representative of the relative disparity in death penalty rates for African Americans than anything else. Also these numbers are old, but still representative of the trend.
Wow, that is a pretty big difference, so what does this prove eactly?
Gentleman Jack
Member
Our criminal code disproportionately affects black americans. This is most easily seen in our criminal drug laws.
I actually didn't have the exact numbers on racial demographics for executed offenders but you kinda proved my point. Somebody already mentioned that there's a higher % of convicted black murderers than the actual black population in Texas but then you'd have to look at why the number convicted is higher.
As posted by Albatross, it's a given that minorities or disproportionately affected by criminal justice system which I think will naturally lead to a skewing of those affected by capital punishment.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
If you're talking about a nation where post-conviction, the convict is just taken out back to the gibbet, yeah that's cheaper, but otherwise, no... death row is insanely expensive. You have to pay for the requisite appeals and all the legal fees that go with it. You have to pay for the solitary confinement. You have to pay for round-the-clock guards, who make more than other guards because no one wants to actually hang around with murderers and they need a financial incentive to care about things like suicide watch. The guards are working in a depressive, dangerous environment, so they have more physical and mental needs when it comes to health care. You have to pay for all the non-guard workers like doctors, nurses, and other staff who also get an increased pay and increased benefit needs, who are, again, working in a depressive, dangerous environment. You have to pay for the health care of the inmates, because you have to keep them healthy until the day they are executed, and many of them have a lot of mental issues and require drugs and therapy, again with the help of premium staff. You have to pay for the automated and non-automated security systems, including cameras, DVRs, multiple locks of sliding gates, and other facilities. Sometimes you even have to maintain a separate armory and commissary if the death row facility is heavily segregated from the main facility. Hell, even getting someone from one side of the facility to another takes a very long time because of all the security checks and preparations that need to be made, because no one is tolerant of any risk when it comes to handling prisoners.
Holy shit. So what's to say that Marcus Rhodes didn't simply dispose of the tools in a random vehicle he came across, which happened to be Woods's?
Was there even a connection established between Rhodes and Woods?
Can you update the thread title to reflect the stay?
My intention was to illustrate your point.
I think your reading is correct, that enforcement is harsher on minorities generally, and blacks especially.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Even with the overwhelming evidence of a racial discriminatory criminal justice system the supreme court says: too bad
I'm not joking:
In McCleskey v. Kemp (a case that tried to challenge the death penalty on racial grounds) the Court said: "[racial disparities] are an inevitable part of our criminal justice system". The court endorsed racism as long as they didn't on the surface claim a racial purpose.
If someone asked me to overturn one case I'd easily pick that one and its never even taugh in most schools. Justice Powell agrees saying it was the one vote he'd change
I'm not joking:
In McCleskey v. Kemp (a case that tried to challenge the death penalty on racial grounds) the Court said: "[racial disparities] are an inevitable part of our criminal justice system". The court endorsed racism as long as they didn't on the surface claim a racial purpose.
If someone asked me to overturn one case I'd easily pick that one and its never even taugh in most schools. Justice Powell agrees saying it was the one vote he'd change
King Cobra
Banned
Yes it is more expensive to have an inmate in death row, the average yearly cost of an inmate on death row is 90k as opposed to the 30k yearly cost for inmate on a life sentence. But when actually take into consideration the 20+ years that an inmate is kept alive in prison, 30k a year is no longer as cost efficient.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
The 5th circuit only grants stays when the court things the supreme court will overrule it. So is the court pretty much admitting it made a bad decision?
Also the AG of Texas will be the next Gov. Good job texas!
HalfBakedProphet
Member
Average cost to execute someone on death row is 2.5-5 million dollars.
The average inmate who is sentenced to life without parole spends 31 years in prison. The first 21 years cost on average 23k, with the last 10 costing 70k. Even if that inmate makes it to the average 31 years lived, it will have cost the state a little over one million dollars...which is a far cry from the 2.5-5 million he would have cost the state to kill him (appeals process is expensive)
Edit: these stats are 13 or 14 years old, I'm sure its actually much more expensive to kill someone now.
Aurean_Mentat
Member
I'm fairly ambivalent regarding the death penalty anymore. I don't think him having a potential disability/mental handicap is any excuse for what he did in this instance. Taking a candy bar from a store without paying for it? Totally. But this? No way in hell.
Assuming the guy doesn't get the death penalty (which he probably won't at this point), how is keeping this guy in prison with no chance to be out among other people ever again (which I think totally needs to happen, given everything the guy did) better than just simply killing him? I mean either way, his life is essentially over, yes?
Assuming the guy doesn't get the death penalty (which he probably won't at this point), how is keeping this guy in prison with no chance to be out among other people ever again (which I think totally needs to happen, given everything the guy did) better than just simply killing him? I mean either way, his life is essentially over, yes?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Link to stay
http://www.scribd.com/doc/223874096/U-S-Court-of-Appeals-Fifth-Circuit
Also, WTF 5th circuit:
The court seems to be saying, we want to kill this guy but the Constitution and Texas withholding evidence prevent us.
Read this
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/536/304/case.html
http://www.scribd.com/doc/223874096/U-S-Court-of-Appeals-Fifth-Circuit
According to “clinical notes” of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice’s Institutional Division which are in the record before us, in 1992, Campbell was administered the “WAIS-R IQ Short Form” (that is, the “Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale-Revised Short Form”test and scored 71. According to the report of a psychologist, Dr. Leslie Rosenstein, that test, which was “designed to be a quick, short screening tool developed to save time, and not a comprehensive measure of intelligence,” tends to “overestimate” intelligence. Thus, the 1992 test, which the department failed to disclose following Campbell’s attorney’s request for “any and all intellectual functioning tests,” was evidence of intellectual disability.
Good Job Texas!
Also, WTF 5th circuit:
The court seems to be saying, we want to kill this guy but the Constitution and Texas withholding evidence prevent us.
We have an 8th amendment:
Read this
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/536/304/case.html
NYCmetsfan
Banned
That pesky due process clause!
Quick search provides some responses to that.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost
More study summaries in this Fox News article.
I think all told it's pretty obvious that pursuing the death penalty is more expensive than even lavish lifetime incarcerations.
Goliath said:
Uh, yeah, the alternative is life without parole, in solitary if necessary.
Even ignoring all moral concerns, it's fiscally and practically the best option. It's cheaper, less resource-intensive and eliminates all possibilities of wrongful execution.
Arkos
Nose how to spell and rede to
That's what alarms me, our states are having to resort to basically illegally trafficking drugs in order to kill people, and after all that they won't even tell the person how they are going to be killed. If you want to execute prisoners convicted of heinous crimes that's one thing, but if you have to smuggle in drugs and say "surprise!" when you execute the guy, I don't see how you can say that isn't messed up.
Thankfully it does seem like some "peer pressure" on the US to stop executing people maybe? Or at least trade embargos / chemical regulations decreasing our ability as a state to execute our prisonors?
How do these intelligence tests work?
If I was convicted of murder and facing the death penalty if I was found to not be mentally disabled I'm sure I could get a low score on an IQ test...
I'm not saying that's what happened here, but how do they prevent people from gaming the tests?
If I was convicted of murder and facing the death penalty if I was found to not be mentally disabled I'm sure I could get a low score on an IQ test...
I'm not saying that's what happened here, but how do they prevent people from gaming the tests?
I don't get what is so crazy here?
You left out this part:
"Witnesses testified at Woods' 2002 trial that he and Rhodes said that they lured Whitehead to an isolated road on the pretense of a drug deal and that Woods shot and killed him"
So Woods shot and killed Whitehead, and was executed. Unless the "crazy" part is that Rhodes wasn't ALSO executed, I'm not sure what you're getting at. But Rhodes plead guilty and received a life sentence.
Yes there was, that part was just conveniently left out. Of course you could have read the link and seen that they were both involved in the murder, it's not like Woods was some stranger who was convicted for no reason...
NYCmetsfan
Banned
They have psychologists. I'd imagine they can tell. Its also more than just the test.
Then why would Rhodes confess that he himself was the one firing the shots, and not woods?
Rhodes plead guilty to the murders, yes. But that doesn't mean Woods wasn't also involved.
Let's go to the actual article that Wikipedia cites:
Poor guy.
And when you go to Steven Woods site it says that none of those accusations were proven and that several of those testimonies that tied him to the murder were impeached or recanted
Obviously has that site a bias going on, but that someone can be sentenced to death without any physical evidence seems scary to me.
Many of those testimonities were later recanted, after they'd already been used to condemn Woods.
Read their last statements, then click on offender information and see what they did.
OldKentuckyShark
Member
From the sound of it, he may have been mentally handicapped, but he still had more than enough intelligence to know what he did was very wrong.
As for the pharmacy, it's better that the general public doesn't know which one it is, as that could lead to a lot of other problems.
As for the pharmacy, it's better that the general public doesn't know which one it is, as that could lead to a lot of other problems.
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