SamuelSupreme
Banned
Someone put me down for Team A! Hayter is returning as Solid Snake! LES ENFANT TERRIBLE
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Metal Gear Community Thread |OT3| The Best is Yet to Come
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SamuelSupreme
Banned
Gun Animal
Member
neither. Both are ideologies crafted based on perspective.
The fact that the SOP system and GW AI have so many modern parallels is confirmation that Zero's outlook is fairly reasonable for someone who spent their life doing white collar intelligence gathering for the CIA.
On the flipside, Big Boss was a war hero who saw too many fellow soldiers treated as disposable and wanted to create a space where Career Soldiers could fight for themselves instead of fighting for a state. Mercenaries have always existed, but they've still had Countries to answer to. Outer Heaven was basically a Mercenary Group that rejected all political authority.
There's a lot of talk of child soldiers, but the kids in Zanzibarland seemed like they were being treated well all things considered---same for Chico. There's a thin line between "raising soldiers" and "using child soldiers" though.
My point is that Zero and Big Boss both did what made sense to them given their limited perspective as agents of the state.
I'd argue the only reason Solid Snake didn't react to his situation in life the same way as Big Boss is because he was able to learn from Big Boss' mistakes.
MidnightPass
Banned
one thing that i never understood is why Ocelot never got angry or tried to avenge his mother, by killing Big Boss
does he not care about her?
does he not care about her?
Skullface
Member
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Love Deterrence
Member
A showdown in MGSV is possible.
MidnightPass
Banned
but neither really fit The Boss true vision?
I want a shower fight between Ocelot and Big Boss. If Kaz and Snake had one, then we need one from Ocelot as well.
MidnightPass
Banned
so do we view that as a plot hole, or a loophole that Ocelot never tried to get revenge for his mother against Big Boss
Love Deterrence
Member
Skullface
Member
Man, you are the king of superfluous questions. Don't take that as an insult though, because it keeps conversation going 😅
Reminds me of someone else who used to post here
Love Deterrence
Member
Reading posts from Marcus
Skullface
Member
Reading posts from Marcus
Perfect depiction of the MARcUs zoNe
MidnightPass
Banned
what else are we suppose to talk about
Skullface
Member
That's what I mean, you're actually doing this thread a service. Without you, we might turn into /mgg/. Or worse, OuterGram 😏
Stratosphere
Member
Quite possibly the greatest thing I've seen all day.Reading posts from Marcus
Also, how is Marcus still not banned?
MidnightPass
Banned
why does the sun only set in the west?
Reading posts from Marcus
When you trying to read through an OuterGAF page and come across a Marcus posting.
MidnightPass
Banned
When you trying to read through an OuterGAF page and come across a Marcus posting.
its not bad
you guys havn't seen my magnum opus yet
Gun Animal
Member
Of a world united? Nope. Not really.
Å
Åesop
Unconfirmed Member
GHound
Member
I'd rather Chico
be a full blown mentally deranged psychopath with a penchant for torturing women and children for his new master... Skull Face. Big Boss with his memories of Chico having just returned and fresh on his mind has to put him out of his misery, further fueling his obsession with revenge.
Don't know why, just feel it would be fitting. Depressing, but fitting.
Åesop;173461176 said:
What a load of bullshit.
zkorejo
Member
This is where it all comes down to. And in my opinion Zero and Patriots are a greater evil.
Sure Big Boss will end up doing horrible things, but you cant get anywhere in the world full of assholes if you are not one of them.
He has a vision and he wants to achieve it. By any means necessary at this point and after everything he has been through (and will go through in MGSV) I dont blame him for anything he does. Does that make him right? No... but atleast its understandable unlike Zero's/Patriots' vision of complete control over everything.
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
???? Ocelot never knew The Boss was his mom, and even if he knew, he was in on Snake Eater's true purpose from the beginning and wouldn't blame Big Boss for it.
Mookie1515
Member
Honestly, seeing how it comes to be that Kaz and BB hate each other so much is something that really excites me.
I have a feeling by the end we won't be feeling too bad about Miller's fate in MGS...
Necrojection
Member
That's weird. I've managed to get Windows 10 to work but it won't run GZ after the update, it just instantly crashes after start-up.
I'm gonna reinstall and see if that helps.
This video reflects what i think about Solidus.
Pretty much.
In MG2 Big Boss say he's doing both, to keep the cycle going.
There's no rush to make a new OT you know.
Love Deterrence
Member
They finished up on Sunday-- nothing came of it, though, yet! They teased that there would be new media from the event soon, but in all likelihood, this was in reference to what they have in store for gamescom. Either way, expect new footage and new information within a week!
MidnightPass
Banned
wait did the japanese prevewiers, were they allowed to finish the game?
Yes it was a review event. They did the same thing with 4.
MidnightPass
Banned
by the way
the guy from reddit and gamefaq that "leaked" the huge elaborate storyline for MGS V
that dealt with
well he just admitted that he made it all up
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/718564-metal-gear-solid-v-the-phantom-pain/72244219
the guy from reddit and gamefaq that "leaked" the huge elaborate storyline for MGS V
that dealt with
that we were actually playing a clone named venom snake and not the real big boss
well he just admitted that he made it all up
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/718564-metal-gear-solid-v-the-phantom-pain/72244219
Love Deterrence
Member
Allowed to, yes. Whether or not anyone did is unknown.
Cool cool. Gotta figure out when I need to disconnect my internet.
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
The Boss' will, how her actions spell it out:
Yup, as has been said often, even by Big Boss himself if I recall, Solid was the only one who got it, and he never even knew about the Boss. I see her vision as being best reflected by her last action, preventing the deaths of innocents by laying down her life. Peace Walker also did this, they both were the focal point of a potential nuclear holocaust, and they both willingly died knowing it was the only way to protect the people of the world. Solid was going to as well, to prevent a FOXDIE outbreak, but he ended up not having to sacrifice himself.
Her will I think was simply to use everything in your power to protect the world and leave it as it is, try to make peace and accept others without eyes for race, sex, nationality etc., while being prepared to make self sacrifices for the good of others. David and Joy never tried to change the world, they always tried only to protect it from harm, and they shouldered the weight of the world's future on themselves.
Big Boss and Zero both thought they needed to destroy borders. BB thought he needed to do this by bringing upon endless and total war, with everyone fighting for what they believe in and never for a state. Zero instead believed he needed to make the current states of the world obsolete, and worked the rest of his life to end individual sovereignty and make the world fall under one ruling government, with no room for war. It should be noted that Big Boss rejects idolizing the Boss and trying to follow her will after PW, in TPP and onwards until 4, he thinks he has found his own better will, but it is still an offshoot of his incorrect interpretation to make a world of soldiers and endless war, fighting for only their own ideals.
What he also didn't get, was that the US didn't "use" or "dispose" of the Boss. She could have abandoned her mission and lived, but she knew that wasn't going to be best for the world. The threat of nuclear war loomed, and there was no other way in her eyes. She always emphasized believing in the mission and being loyal to it. What Big Boss may have not realized was she wasn't saying soldiers or people needed to be loyal to their government or any values set upon them. They need to be loyal to themselves, their mission, and their ideals.
And she was loyal to the end.
Zero's interpretation versus Big Boss':
See above, both versions are corrupt. At least Zero didn't intend on eternal war it seems, that appears to have been an aberration the AIs seemed to have converged on in order to keep the economy booming which was one of their parameters. They were fulfilling limited programming, without real intellect or ability to think critically about the harm they were doing.
Big Boss chose world war on purpose and went to despicable deaths to try to attain it, fueled by a rage from years of regret and loss for both his comrades and the Boss. Under Zero's control, the threat of nuclear war was stopped, I bet it was one of the few handicaps on the Patriot AIs, they were and always would be incapable of starting nuclear war.
But Big Boss strived for it, as did Liquid. Solidus and Ocelot aimed for a more ambiguous "endless war", but BB and Liquid both intended on starting a nuclear war, fanning its flames, and letting MAD transform the world into a global battlefield where soldiers would always fight and be needed. That's almost a direct quote from the both of them.
Personally, I understand what Zero was doing much better than Big Boss' agenda. They are both evil in their methods, but at least if one was to get rid of bordeers, preventing nuclear apocalypse by relinquishing control over war makes more sense as an ideal goal, than starting a nuclear apocalypse to destroy all governments and control so everyone can be "free". They both become evil, make no mistake, I just can't find it harder to sympathize with a war monger like BB becomes. It's the absolute opposite of the Boss' will, not a horribly twisted version like Zero's.
Ocelot is not loyal to his genes:
I think he actually found out eventually, or even knew from the beginning, but I agree, he was part of the operation and went through with it. I see it this way, he was never raised by her, and probably didn't even meet her long before Snake Eater, rember that the Philosopher's took him from her and probably the Sorrow as well. So he was raised like Solid Snake, as probably a foster kid or orphan and was eventually influenced into the military. Why then, would Ocelot feel more affinity for his genetic mother than David did his genetic "father"?
I'm not even sure Ocelot had ever met the Boss before the events of Snake Eater, and if so, he'd have even less reason to feel remorse for her death after the fact, because he wasn't even trained by her, she was just his genetic origin, not his mentor. Everything that the Boss was for Naked Snake, she wasn't for Ocelot, and the only thing he had that Naked didn't was he genes.
It's a very cold thing to say, but I think Ocelot was intentionally designed not to care at all about his parentage, as a foil for Naked Snake's and all of his "offspring's" obsession with theirs. They always try to measure up or aspire to be like their parental figure, but Ocelot isn't a Snake, and so he lives for himself and others he chooses to idolize, not governed by his genetic predisposition to be loyal to his origin.
Let's get real, Ocelot is pretty crazy and even sociopathic in ways. He adores torture and lives for the thrill of killing, as well as fulfilling BB's will to plunge the world into chaos. Should we really expect that such a man, with seemingly no real personal connection to a woman besides her genes, to be saddened or moved by her death? I guess this is a matter of memes versus genes, just like Raiden wasn't too broken up about killing his memetic father, Solidus, Ocelot didn't cry over the Boss' death, since she was just his genetic mother.
She never meant anything to him except for what her connection to the Boss meant to him. Ocelot probably only respected the Boss for making Big Boss who he is, sad as it is to say. I really think this particular wrinkle of Ocelot's personality is part of Kojima's overarching commentary on parentage, through genes and memes (and also other things we pass on, like the "sins", probably a key point of TPP). Ocelot is just an expression of a character who does not care about his genes, and only respects action and the people he has known personally.
He feels no loyalty to a woman he never knew.
Kaz's fate:
Or, we'll feel even worse. Kaz actually will probably end up almost as dark as BB, but I think we'll come to understand how Miller would call Big Boss a "monster" more so than we will be happy to see Miller killed in MGS1. I think (theory time)
Yup, as has been said often, even by Big Boss himself if I recall, Solid was the only one who got it, and he never even knew about the Boss. I see her vision as being best reflected by her last action, preventing the deaths of innocents by laying down her life. Peace Walker also did this, they both were the focal point of a potential nuclear holocaust, and they both willingly died knowing it was the only way to protect the people of the world. Solid was going to as well, to prevent a FOXDIE outbreak, but he ended up not having to sacrifice himself.
Her will I think was simply to use everything in your power to protect the world and leave it as it is, try to make peace and accept others without eyes for race, sex, nationality etc., while being prepared to make self sacrifices for the good of others. David and Joy never tried to change the world, they always tried only to protect it from harm, and they shouldered the weight of the world's future on themselves.
Big Boss and Zero both thought they needed to destroy borders. BB thought he needed to do this by bringing upon endless and total war, with everyone fighting for what they believe in and never for a state. Zero instead believed he needed to make the current states of the world obsolete, and worked the rest of his life to end individual sovereignty and make the world fall under one ruling government, with no room for war. It should be noted that Big Boss rejects idolizing the Boss and trying to follow her will after PW, in TPP and onwards until 4, he thinks he has found his own better will, but it is still an offshoot of his incorrect interpretation to make a world of soldiers and endless war, fighting for only their own ideals.
What he also didn't get, was that the US didn't "use" or "dispose" of the Boss. She could have abandoned her mission and lived, but she knew that wasn't going to be best for the world. The threat of nuclear war loomed, and there was no other way in her eyes. She always emphasized believing in the mission and being loyal to it. What Big Boss may have not realized was she wasn't saying soldiers or people needed to be loyal to their government or any values set upon them. They need to be loyal to themselves, their mission, and their ideals.
And she was loyal to the end.
Zero's interpretation versus Big Boss':
See above, both versions are corrupt. At least Zero didn't intend on eternal war it seems, that appears to have been an aberration the AIs seemed to have converged on in order to keep the economy booming which was one of their parameters. They were fulfilling limited programming, without real intellect or ability to think critically about the harm they were doing.
Big Boss chose world war on purpose and went to despicable deaths to try to attain it, fueled by a rage from years of regret and loss for both his comrades and the Boss. Under Zero's control, the threat of nuclear war was stopped, I bet it was one of the few handicaps on the Patriot AIs, they were and always would be incapable of starting nuclear war.
But Big Boss strived for it, as did Liquid. Solidus and Ocelot aimed for a more ambiguous "endless war", but BB and Liquid both intended on starting a nuclear war, fanning its flames, and letting MAD transform the world into a global battlefield where soldiers would always fight and be needed. That's almost a direct quote from the both of them.
Personally, I understand what Zero was doing much better than Big Boss' agenda. They are both evil in their methods, but at least if one was to get rid of bordeers, preventing nuclear apocalypse by relinquishing control over war makes more sense as an ideal goal, than starting a nuclear apocalypse to destroy all governments and control so everyone can be "free". They both become evil, make no mistake, I just can't find it harder to sympathize with a war monger like BB becomes. It's the absolute opposite of the Boss' will, not a horribly twisted version like Zero's.
Ocelot is not loyal to his genes:
I think he actually found out eventually, or even knew from the beginning, but I agree, he was part of the operation and went through with it. I see it this way, he was never raised by her, and probably didn't even meet her long before Snake Eater, rember that the Philosopher's took him from her and probably the Sorrow as well. So he was raised like Solid Snake, as probably a foster kid or orphan and was eventually influenced into the military. Why then, would Ocelot feel more affinity for his genetic mother than David did his genetic "father"?
I'm not even sure Ocelot had ever met the Boss before the events of Snake Eater, and if so, he'd have even less reason to feel remorse for her death after the fact, because he wasn't even trained by her, she was just his genetic origin, not his mentor. Everything that the Boss was for Naked Snake, she wasn't for Ocelot, and the only thing he had that Naked didn't was he genes.
It's a very cold thing to say, but I think Ocelot was intentionally designed not to care at all about his parentage, as a foil for Naked Snake's and all of his "offspring's" obsession with theirs. They always try to measure up or aspire to be like their parental figure, but Ocelot isn't a Snake, and so he lives for himself and others he chooses to idolize, not governed by his genetic predisposition to be loyal to his origin.
Let's get real, Ocelot is pretty crazy and even sociopathic in ways. He adores torture and lives for the thrill of killing, as well as fulfilling BB's will to plunge the world into chaos. Should we really expect that such a man, with seemingly no real personal connection to a woman besides her genes, to be saddened or moved by her death? I guess this is a matter of memes versus genes, just like Raiden wasn't too broken up about killing his memetic father, Solidus, Ocelot didn't cry over the Boss' death, since she was just his genetic mother.
She never meant anything to him except for what her connection to the Boss meant to him. Ocelot probably only respected the Boss for making Big Boss who he is, sad as it is to say. I really think this particular wrinkle of Ocelot's personality is part of Kojima's overarching commentary on parentage, through genes and memes (and also other things we pass on, like the "sins", probably a key point of TPP). Ocelot is just an expression of a character who does not care about his genes, and only respects action and the people he has known personally.
He feels no loyalty to a woman he never knew.
Kaz's fate:
Or, we'll feel even worse. Kaz actually will probably end up almost as dark as BB, but I think we'll come to understand how Miller would call Big Boss a "monster" more so than we will be happy to see Miller killed in MGS1. I think (theory time)
it'll be interesting though to see if Eli/Liquid has a clear motivation to kill and impersonate him. Maybe he and Ocelot are some of the few who are loyal to BB by the end of TPP, and a potential betrayal (even for the greater good) of Big Boss by Kaz seals his fate in their eyes.
Love Deterrence
Member
Hahaha!! Yes, sir, not too much longer - the time is upon us! Doing anything special to pass the time (gaming wise)?
Necrojection
Member
Sn4ke, if you're lurking
Baby come back, any kind of fool could see
There was something in everything about you
Baby come back, you can blame it all on me
I was wrong, and I just can't live without you
Nothing yet dude. I've been mulling over the idea about finally starting up a New Game Plus in Persona 4 Golden and seeing if I can sink another 100 hours into it. Should make the wait for MGSV feel less excruciating.
Or even just finally trying out Persona 3 Portable and doing the FeMC path (already played FES). As you can see, I'm thinking big here.
Also third option: I will probably fit in some liquid easy replays of MGS1-4 just to refresh, and maybe finally finish Peace Walker.
What about you, Deterrence?
Love Deterrence
Member
Wow, funny, because I pretty much had the same thing in mind! :'D
You can never go wrong with another playthrough of P4G; as story/character-driven as it is, it's so easy to want to play over and over again, the way home/social/dungeon is all laid out is brilliant. 100 hours means 100 hours less to freak out about MGSV! :-D
That's awesome! Many seem to prefer P3P to FES due to tweaks in the combat, so if you do go for it, you should let me know what you think about how it stands up to FES!
Perfect! Gotta play through the games of the past before release as this is MGS tradition, right? I'm actually setting up a stream for the week following gamescom in an attempt to complete my last MGS story run pre-MGSV!
So, yeah, that, and I started my first Zelda playthrough about a week ago, so SUPERLTTP! XD Starting with Wind Waker HD and man, it is amazing; about halfway through that now and just so excited about getting into the series because there is so much to catch up on and it all feels so new, you know! ^_^
Playing through Zelda, especially for the first time, should appropriately occupy your time and make the wait for MGSV less painful.
Wind Waker is great. Don't know which one you're planning to go to after, but remember not to forget the 2D entries! A Link to the Past is where it's at. I'm sure you've already heard this though.
This is a great post, and I'm happy for you.
Wind Waker is great. Don't know which one you're planning to go to after, but remember not to forget the 2D entries! A Link to the Past is where it's at. I'm sure you've already heard this though.
This is a great post, and I'm happy for you.
The BBFC has rated The Phantom Pain's Collector's Disc a 15 and has listed its contents:
http://bbfc.co.uk/releases/metal-gear-solid-v-phantom-pain-collectors-disc-video
http://bbfc.co.uk/releases/metal-gear-solid-v-phantom-pain-collectors-disc-video
Uh-oh. I guess it's time to unplug.
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
Solidus, heroic and evil, an excellent Kojima villain:
I actually think Solidus is the most heroic villain of the entire franchise, being the most noble in goal over every other, unless you really ever considered the Boss as being a villain. However, excusing of his past sins is not a good thing, and saying he is "nowhere near as bad" as any other MGS villain is ignores too much of his past to be an accurate statement. He really is Big Boss but less extreme, but that still includes "1. Kill parents 2. Adopt children and make into soldiers 3. Make them kill more parents, see step 1. 4. Rinse and repeat" as a central manner of action in his past, and there's no indication he feels any remorse for it, so continuing this trend in likely to have occurred in the future, had he reached his goal of disrupting Patriot control and lived on to fight for his own ideals.
I even watched and really liked that video you've linked, but Hyper Bit Hero's excuse for Solidus' hideous war crimes is pretty lame. Saying it was just "poorly executed" and was only an awkward moment is astounding, and really misses the depth of the character. It reduces the complexity of the character and really makes him too sympathetic for a Kojima villain to just say "Oh, but he didn't mean to turn Jack into a serial killer." "Oh, Kojima just made Solidus say he killed Jack's parents so the player would be motivated to kill him, he didn't think about how evil that would have made him.". No. Solidus told Raiden he killed his parents because it made the coming battle all the more thrilling for him. He killed Jack's parents because he wanted to see if he could manipulate Jack into becoming his "son" through only his memes. He considers both Jack and himself to be monsters made by man, and willingly forced Jack into that life.
Solidus is one of my favorite villains in the entire series, I was pretty disappointed he didn't show up as a cynorg in MGR, and I'd be saddened for us not to get more of him in MGSV before Kojima can no longer add to his character, but please don't excuse the fact that he did just what Big Boss did in the past.
(Sorry for moving my reply to a new post instead of leaving it as an edit to my earlier one, just didn't want to get left being on the new page.)
I actually think Solidus is the most heroic villain of the entire franchise, being the most noble in goal over every other, unless you really ever considered the Boss as being a villain. However, excusing of his past sins is not a good thing, and saying he is "nowhere near as bad" as any other MGS villain is ignores too much of his past to be an accurate statement. He really is Big Boss but less extreme, but that still includes "1. Kill parents 2. Adopt children and make into soldiers 3. Make them kill more parents, see step 1. 4. Rinse and repeat" as a central manner of action in his past, and there's no indication he feels any remorse for it, so continuing this trend in likely to have occurred in the future, had he reached his goal of disrupting Patriot control and lived on to fight for his own ideals.
I even watched and really liked that video you've linked, but Hyper Bit Hero's excuse for Solidus' hideous war crimes is pretty lame. Saying it was just "poorly executed" and was only an awkward moment is astounding, and really misses the depth of the character. It reduces the complexity of the character and really makes him too sympathetic for a Kojima villain to just say "Oh, but he didn't mean to turn Jack into a serial killer." "Oh, Kojima just made Solidus say he killed Jack's parents so the player would be motivated to kill him, he didn't think about how evil that would have made him.". No. Solidus told Raiden he killed his parents because it made the coming battle all the more thrilling for him. He killed Jack's parents because he wanted to see if he could manipulate Jack into becoming his "son" through only his memes. He considers both Jack and himself to be monsters made by man, and willingly forced Jack into that life.
Solidus is one of my favorite villains in the entire series, I was pretty disappointed he didn't show up as a cynorg in MGR, and I'd be saddened for us not to get more of him in MGSV before Kojima can no longer add to his character, but please don't excuse the fact that he did just what Big Boss did in the past.
(Sorry for moving my reply to a new post instead of leaving it as an edit to my earlier one, just didn't want to get left being on the new page.)
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
The Steam page for Phantom Pain was recently updated and apparently you can preorder in Japan, so my wallet is ready.
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