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[Pie and Beans]

After Battlefront Beta (and Transformers Devastation), I havent looked back. Never thought I'd be completely unphased by an MGO and done with it within launch week, but here we are.

Matchmaking was shit, balance was shit, and fun-factor was few and far between. MGSV has just been this unrelenting sour note. Such a shame as the controls and animations are top notch but there just seems to be a huge amount of soul missing.

Not sure what they could even do to bring me back really. Maybe some of the retro maps if they force better more contained play, but thats more money invested into a probably very rapidly dwindling online population.

 

[Stone Ocean]

If you do that, any Infiltrator who plays C&D is at a distinct disadvantage. They'll have 1-3 empty perk slots while every other class stays the same. Hardly fair.

Make custom C&D loadouts like everyone else then. You have non-lethal/lethal aim to make you a better shot and move faster, tactical for more petrol bombs, interrogation to basically end a match right there if you get a CQC hold and so on. Infiltrators are hardly useless as defenders without their stealth, you don't see them complaining that their stealth perk is a waste of a slot as attackers, do you?

 

[Screaming Meat]

Make custom C&D loadouts like everyone else then. You have non-lethal/lethal aim to make you a better shot and move faster, tactical for more petrol bombs, interrogation to basically end a match right there and so on. Infiltrators are hardly useless as defenders without their stealth.

Putting the onus of the player is not a good solution.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Just walk around e.locators, their actual range seems to be much smaller than the visual effect. I don't have any problems getting around them, sure sometimes I can't make the approach I wanted to but then I just go a different way (or weigh the options and run through it), but it's not like I see one and just curl up into a ball and cry about how they're using an item in the way it's meant to be used. The game isn't perfectly balanced, but a lot of these complaints are legitimately ya'll just refusing to adapt to certain things and complaining about how the flow of the match should bend to how you want to play.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Putting the onus of the player is not a good solution.

Read my edit, stealth perks are useless as defenders, why is that okay and this isn't?

Also what "onus"? Lethal weapon perks and loadouts are useless as attackers too, why does this one specific instance need to be coddled up when everything else has to be dealt with? There is no onus in having your players pick their loadouts properly for specific instances, just put a note on the perk description that it's useless in C&D and stop holding their hand.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Read my edit, stealth perks are useless as defenders, why is that okay and this isn't?

It isn't and it bothers me too. No good design solution should ever rely on the player to work.

 

[Alienous]

Just walk around e.locators, their actual range seems to be much smaller than the visual effect. I don't have any problems getting around them, sure sometimes I can't make the approach I wanted to but then I just go a different way (or weigh the options and run through it), but it's not like I see one and just curl up into a ball and cry about how they're using an item in the way it's meant to be used. The game isn't perfectly balanced, but a lot of these complaints are legitimately ya'll just refusing to adapt to certain things and complaining about how the flow of the match should bend to how you want to play.

Again, you can work around these overpowered elements, but doing so reduces your options.

People aren't throwing E.Locators at the start of every round and throughout the match for no reason. There's a balance problem with them. Same with Stealth Camo sprinters.

Right now I fight fire with fire. I toss E.Locators and have an easy time playing the game. They know where I am, I know where they are, we shoot eachother, rinse and repeat. Behold, MGO3.

The overpowered elements reduce the variety in the game. I don't want my tactics to always work, I want all tactics to be viable. That's balance, something the game is severely lacking right now (evident in how players are choosing to play).

 

[GreenScar]

I'm curious as to why people are saying that e-locators discourage stealth. If anything, once more people started using them, it just made me even more stealthy. Look, you're only marked for up to three seconds once you leave the AOE. And since pretty much everyone tends to throw them to the most obvious points, I'd say it encourages you to actually use different avenues of attacks. I've seen people just run through them as if their wasn't a giant red circle flashing instead of avoiding it and going around, or when actually hit with it, retreating until the effect wears off.

I've played Scout and Infiltrator, but not Enforcer. So far the only balancing issue I've encountered would be the glorified .22 that they call a sniper rifle that's given to scouts.

Also, it's okay to take personal responsibility for lackluster performance in a match. I was scouting from the distance and eventually an infiltrator snuck up and fultoned me. I could either rage against the machine about how broken the shit is, or acknowledge that, as a scout my ONE JOB is to be aware of where the enemy is, that I obviously wasn't doing playing my position correctly.

As for infiltrators...please let me know what load out allows me this mythical supersonic speed and assault rifle or shotgun. Also, if an infiltrator gets close enough to use the shotty on you, then he could take two more steps and cqc you. One is a two shot move while the other is one and done. In many respects, getting hit with the shotgun works in the victim's favor since it sends you flying out of its effective range half the time.

I think a lot of the aching and groaning people have in the game is easily overcome by simply using the buddy system as it was designed to be used. Then again, it used to frustrate me to no end that people wouldn't activate SOP in MGO2 so I guess it's a tradition for this series.

My main problem seems to come from comparing it to MGO2 which felt like it had more personality in design. On its own, MGO3 is good enough, though.

 

[RyanardoDaVinci]

Yeah, C&D does need it removed. Problem is, it's tied to a perk.

That's not the problem; the problem is allowing custom loadouts in C&D.

It would be better if there were only 3 pre-set loadouts available for each side, something like:

Attackers:
No primary / silenced Tranq pistol / Plushies
Bullhorn / no pistol / Smoke grenades
Tranq rifle / no pistol / Stun grenades

Defenders:
Semi-auto rifle / .45 pistol / Grenades
Pump-action Shotgun / Geist / Grenades
Sniper rifle / Uragan / Claymores

 

[SonicAaron]

If I go to find a match in automatch... Don't tell me the host has left... Don't tell me I've left the session... Just find me a match without any notice please. What is it with mgs5 and notices. I don't care!!! Every time you start up its 8 pages of notes. Then into the game 8 pages of notices before a match.

 

[Screaming Meat]

That's not the problem; the problem is allowing custom loadouts in C&D.

It would be better if there were only 3 pre-set loadouts available for each side, something like:

Attackers:
No primary / silenced Tranq pistol / Plushies
Bullhorn / no pistol / Smoke grenades
Tranq rifle / no pistol / Stun grenades

Defenders:
Semi-auto rifle / .45 pistol / Grenades
Pump-action Shotgun / Geist / Grenades
Sniper rifle / Uragan / Claymores

Now THAT is a good solution. It would have to choose perks too.

 

[Ashura_MX]

If I go to find a match in automatch... Don't tell me the host has left... Don't tell me I've left the session... Just find me a match without any notice please. What is it with mgs5 and notices. I don't care!!! Every time you start up its 8 pages of notes. Then into the game 8 pages of notices before a match.

This so fucking. Much.

 

[fuzzyreactor]

I think I'm done with game for now until the updates come in and patches

The game is barebones as hell and I've already ascended my scout. The game really does need balancing.

Scouts need a holding breath ability
Because the sway is ridiculous + sniper damage buff. And the perks barely do anything just wastes of skill space. (I also play the recon team in bf3/4 so I know what the sway should be like)

Cqc stun lock and sleep time should be reduced or maybe have some percent 50 to 75% chance of occurring which rises with level

No dwalkers on rush maps.
Only close range weapons for infiltrators like pistols/smg and shottys.
And they should lose camo immediately when firing except for tranq.. Until they get higher skills where they can partially stay in camo but never a full clip of a smg

I think Scouts should only have elocators since that is the marking heavy class.
You should be able to break out of a Fulton if they don't Fulton you fast enough.. Laying on the ground for 8 seconds is not fun for anyone.

If you sprint the camo should die out faster.
I have rekt plenty infil scum who think their clever
but really some of the decisions with that class and with the game are mind boggling.

Oh yeah fuck sleep launchers
Fuck teammates who don't don't shoot down balloons
Fuck dwalkers teams
Fuck sprinting infilscum teams on bounty hunter

Praise the scouts. I know their the hardest class to master/gitgud at but I generally don't go for cheap stuff in multiplayer games. I hate you sleep spammers. Ascended scout lvl 10

Agree with everything u said. Great post

 

[Jaeger]

If you do that, any Infiltrator who plays C&D is at a distinct disadvantage. They'll have 1-3 empty perk slots while every other class is fully perked. Hardly fair.

I didn't know that! So I have to play C&D to get those slots?

 

[Screaming Meat]

I didn't know that! So I have to play C&D to get those slots?

You got me wrong, chief. We were discussing the possibility of C&D removing Stealth Camo perks for the attackers.

 

[Jaeger]

You got me wrong, chief. We were discussing the possibility of C&D removing Stealth Camo perks for the attackers.

Oh! D'oh. Is there a way to unlock extra slots for the perks/attachments? Through Ascension?

 

[Stone Ocean]

Oh! D'oh. Is there a way to unlock extra slots for the perks/attachments? Through Ascension?

Not for perks but I'm pretty sure you can unlock more attachment slots on some weapons.

 

[fritzo]

I'm loving the game so far. Its not MGO2 in the way it won't allow you to customize a game to great detail, but whatever. And its not "headshot" crazy like MGO2 is. Cloak is a little OP tho. Maybe if we're cloaked then shot it turns off a short time. Walker Gears at first were very OP, but just stay out of their way and you can survive it. Although it seems that they shouldn't be so many of them. This game needs tweaks, but so does every MP game. I hope KP is working on it. That's my 2 cents.

 

[Basketball]

Maybe the game needs a feature like in gears with the head on chainsaw dual

If an infilscum is coming at you full on sprint to cqc and your facing him there should be a sequence where you can counter like vs the skulls
That would be awesome I think

 

[Screaming Meat]

Oh! D'oh. Is there a way to unlock extra slots for the perks/attachments? Through Ascension?

No idea. I'm only level 17. I doubt it tho.

 

[konjak]

Everyone's starting to master this game but me. I used to have good scores but now I'm consistently at the bottom and it's getting to me. I love this game but I apparently cannot learn anything...

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Maybe the game needs a feature like in gears with the head on chainsaw dual

If an infilscum is coming at you full on sprint to cqc and your facing him there should be a sequence where you can counter like vs the skulls
That would be awesome I think

This doesn't roll off the tongue at all. Please come up with something better.

 

[Red Alchemist]

Regarding balancing issues how would these sound as changes?

• Increase the transparency on stealth making it harder to see. - you can still use shadows, dust that is kicked up, noise to find stealth-ed players and I don't want stealth players to be completely invisible.
• Stealth is removed if you make any noise (sprinting, using an un-suppressed weapon etc.) - so stealth-ed players can't just sprint around plus the added suppressor will add weight reducing speed plus suppressor will break quickly with full auto weapons.
• CQC throw only does moderate stun damage - If you want to knock someone out using CQC use the choke it's what it's there for. Or carry a stun weapon to follow up the throw.
• Increase time spent unconscious - stick together if you want to wake up quickly, don't go rambo.
• Able to mark traps, maybe add in a skill to detect traps (I don't know if this is already in the game).
• E.Locator has a 1 second delay to activate - to reduce people being marked while the locator is in the air as much.
• E.Locator only marks enemies if they are inside it - use the locators in choke points rather than just spamming them.
• Increased lethal sniper damage or reduce the scope sway - Lethal snipers are too weak considering the speed you can move and regenerating health.
• Defenders are unable to use stealth in Cloak and Dagger - Having the defenders able to use stealth, the one advantage the attackers have is pretty stupid.

I'd also like a mode which doesn't allow custom load-outs only presets for more balance similar to MGO2's TSNE but that's more me wanting old TSNE back more than anything.

I haven't played or seen enforcers that much so I can't comment on them. Also if you guys had to change the game how would you do it, if at all?

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Again, you can work around these overpowered elements, but doing so reduces your options.

People aren't throwing E.Locators at the start of every round and throughout the match for no reason. There's a balance problem with them. Same with Stealth Camo sprinters.

Right now I fight fire with fire. I toss E.Locators and have an easy time playing the game. They know where I am, I know where they are, we shoot eachother, rinse and repeat. Behold, MGO3.

The overpowered elements reduce the variety in the game. I don't want my tactics to always work, I want all tactics to be viable. That's balance, something the game is severely lacking right now (evident in how players are choosing to play).

So "I don't want my tactics to always work, I just don't want them to not always work"? Sneaking is more than viable, it just takes more work, it's supposed to. I'm almost always the top of my matches and I manage to sneak around these horrendously OP locators without much issue, and against all odds I find people to kill without them, in fact I see lots of people doing the same and they also generally score very well, almost like they're just good players or something...

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

After Battlefront Beta (and Transformers Devastation), I havent looked back. Never thought I'd be completely unphased by an MGO and done with it within launch week, but here we are.

Matchmaking was shit, balance was shit, and fun-factor was few and far between. MGSV has just been this unrelenting sour note. Such a shame as the controls and animations are top notch but there just seems to be a huge amount of soul missing.

Not sure what they could even do to bring me back really. Maybe some of the retro maps if they force better more contained play, but thats more money invested into a probably very rapidly dwindling online population.

I feel the opposite. I was a huge spies vs mercenaries fan.. and while this is different, similar highly intense scenarios happen frequently for me. I play the game as a methodical Infiltrator and have an absolute blast.

I don't find the balance to be wacky at all. However, there are some tweaks that I would like to make mainly for annoyance issues. Like I think the D walker should be dropped entirely. And make super strict load out rules for C&D exactly like spy vs mercenaries classic mode.

Either way I'm having a blast with the EXTREMELY limited content. I think a few updates and DLC and this could really be something great.

 

[Basketball]

This doesn't roll off the tongue at all. Please come up with something better.

I think scum fits them perfectly for now.

 

[Storm Raider]

So many infilhater's in here.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I feel the opposite. I was a huge spies vs mercenaries fan.. and while this is different, similar highly intense scenarios happen frequently for me. I play the game as a methodical Infiltrator and have an absolute blast.

I don't find the balance to be wacky at all. However, there are some tweaks that I would like to make mainly for annoyance issues. Like I think the D walker should be dropped entirely. And make super strict load out rules for C&D exactly like spy vs mercenaries classic mode.

Either way I'm having a blast with the EXTREMELY limited content. I think a few updates and DLC and this could really be something great.

Lack of anything close to Snake mode from MGO2 kills it for me. That was limited to, but the rush of playing as Snake in Octocamo in a live combat zone was, I guess, a total gaming One-Off.

Base capture felt better in MGO2 as well. I dunno whats here to really get attached to and invested in.

Meanwhile Hoth is calling and thats a typically unbalanced DICE game so... that just speaks to how bad MGO3's balance problem is.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

How do you mark targets as someone other than a scout?

 

[Demoskinos]

I want to see the receipts.

This is what the SHARE button was made for.

I mean I posted this just last night. Guy in stealth wasn't moving a muscle and I still saw him and headshotted him. I'll be glad to stream my matches or w/e tonight.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=om3ALhsZTaI

 

[Alienous]

So "I don't want my tactics to always work, I just don't want them to not always work"? Sneaking is more than viable, it just takes more work, it's supposed to. I'm almost always the top of my matches and I manage to sneak around these horrendously OP locators without much issue, and against all odds I find people to kill without them, in fact I see lots of people doing the same and they also generally score very well, almost like they're just good players or something...

No, I want them to work just as much as any other tactic works.

But fine, I'm not a "good player". Enjoy MGO3, because I don't. Either patches will fix the issues that I, and others, have with the experience, or it'll stay nice and perfect for you.

 

[Basketball]

How do you mark targets as someone other than a scout?

The binoculars button from SINGLEPLAYER

Or Rb on Xbone. Idk for ps4.

It will probably take longer. It evens takes a while for scouts as well without the perks.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

Lack of anything close to Snake mode from MGO2 kills it for me. That was limited to, but the rush of playing as Snake in Octocamo in a live combat zone was, I guess, a total gaming One-Off.

Base capture felt better in MGO2 as well. I dunno whats here to really get attached to and invested in.

Meanwhile Hoth is calling and thats a typically unbalanced DICE game so... that just speaks to how bad MGO3's balance problem is.

What is hoth?

I've never played an MGO before, but as a die hard splinter cell multiplayer fan, I don't find this game to be unbalanced. Sometimes countering a tactic requires extreme work, unlike games like call of duty where your adjustments to other players can be very small.

I play infiltrator. I use stealth camo to move across open gaps. I never sprint because it flags you all over the map. If any enemy sprints near me, he is going to die because I know where he is and he doesn't know where I am. Which leads to some awesome sneaky gameplay.

I'm loving it. But it does need some minor tweaks.

 

[SonicAaron]

Guns definitely jam. And I've lost matches because of it.

Standing aiming down sight at a person sprinting towards you. You do NOTHING and they knock you out.

 

[Basketball]

I swear scouts are getting the short end of the stick in the game
like from lvl 21 to 31 theres barely any cool unlocks

The best thing they get IMO is the optics 2/3. Infiltrash has camo, enforcers get launchers and shields + bash ..

What abilities do scouts get ? Weapon sway, heavy low damage rifles, and marking
Everyone uses the ms4, elocators

 

[RandomExpletive]

I mean I posted this just last night. Guy in stealth wasn't moving a muscle and I still saw him and headshotted him. I'll be glad to stream my matches or w/e tonight.

Not the best example, his stealth camo was offline from the alert, you can see him crawling in from the corner of the screen

 

[Gorillaz]

Lack of anything close to Snake mode from MGO2 kills it for me. That was limited to, but the rush of playing as Snake in Octocamo in a live combat zone was, I guess, a total gaming One-Off.

Base capture felt better in MGO2 as well. I dunno whats here to really get attached to and invested in.

Meanwhile Hoth is calling and thats a typically unbalanced DICE game so... that just speaks to how bad MGO3's balance problem is.

Tbh playing the battlefront "beta" (its honestly a demo) pushed me to come back to MGO3 with its problems. BF lacked gameplay depth and had me want more elsewhere

But that can be discussed in a different thread. For the most part this game is a big patch away from being good.

 

[Ardenyal]

I swear scouts are getting the short end of the stick in the game
like from lvl 21 to 31 theres barely any cool unlocks

The best thing they get IMO is the optics 2/3. Infiltrash has camo, enforcers get launchers and shields + bash ..

What abilities do scouts get ? Weapon sway, heavy low damage rifles, and marking
Everyone uses the ms4, elocators

Yeah on higher levels once everyone unlocks e locators the scouts become less useful. Also the constant rush mode makes sniping really ineffective. You can easily take out a sniper in a rush map with an assault rifle from the other side of the map, that's really dumb.

 

[Demoskinos]

Regarding balancing issues how would these sound as changes?

• Increase the transparency on stealth making it harder to see. - you can still use shadows, dust that is kicked up, noise to find stealth-ed players and I don't want stealth players to be completely invisible.
• Stealth is removed if you make any noise (sprinting, using an un-suppressed weapon etc.) - so stealth-ed players can't just sprint around plus the added suppressor will add weight reducing speed plus suppressor will break quickly with full auto weapons.
• CQC throw only does moderate stun damage - If you want to knock someone out using CQC use the choke it's what it's there for. Or carry a stun weapon to follow up the throw.
• Increase time spent unconscious - stick together if you want to wake up quickly, don't go rambo.
• Able to mark traps, maybe add in a skill to detect traps (I don't know if this is already in the game).
• E.Locator has a 1 second delay to activate - to reduce people being marked while the locator is in the air as much.
• E.Locator only marks enemies if they are inside it - use the locators in choke points rather than just spamming them.
• Increased lethal sniper damage or reduce the scope sway - Lethal snipers are too weak considering the speed you can move and regenerating health.
• Defenders are unable to use stealth in Cloak and Dagger - Having the defenders able to use stealth, the one advantage the attackers have is pretty stupid.

I'd also like a mode which doesn't allow custom load-outs only presets for more balance similar to MGO2's TSNE but that's more me wanting old TSNE back more than anything.

I haven't played or seen enforcers that much so I can't comment on them. Also if you guys had to change the game how would you do it, if at all?

I think most of that is pretty fair. Only other thing I might want would be the LMG spread reduced a bit. Even when burst firing those things are all over the place.

I do like the suggested CQC throw change. Makes it more like it was in MGO 2 where a slam just grounded someone and you had to follow up with a stun knife. Although Snake and Ocelot CQC should still be instant knockout.

 

[BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!]

It isn't and it bothers me too. No good design solution should ever rely on the player to work.

Should the game also automatically move your player? Aim and shoot for you?

Man, those poor infiltrators having to use their brains for 2 seconds to setup a proper loadout for the match type.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I think scum fits them perfectly for now.

But the name you came up with sucks. "Infilscum" isn't catchy and it doesn't even rhyme with the original word.

EDIT: This is much better
V

So many infilhater's in here.

 

[Shouta]

Not the best example, his stealth camo was offline from the alert, you can see him crawling in from the corner of the screen

I was just about to say. You can see him there before the camo activates again. I noticed it the first time I watched the video, lol.

My biggest problem with the game is that it really doesn't promote methodical play at all and things just devolve into run and gun. Infiltrators with Stealth Camo, Sniper play doesn't seem super great for a number of reasons, maps and objectives aren't conducive to focused team play, etc.

That said, I like this way more than whatever came out initially with MGS4. I didn't get to play that long though since I had to move to Japan and returned my PS3 at the time.

 

[fuzzyreactor]

But the name you came up with sucks. "Infilscum" isn't catchy and it doesn't even rhyme with the original word.

EDIT: This is much better
V

Nah im with team infilscum. I automatically think less of you if you play that OP class

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Yeah on higher levels once everyone unlocks e locators the scouts become less useful. Also the constant rush mode makes sniping really ineffective. You can easily take out a sniper in a rush map with an assault rifle from the other side of the map, that's really dumb.

The rush maps are lame in general. I did one on Black Site last night and my team just took over the roof top both rounds and there was pretty much nothing the enemy team could do to stop it. In the regular mode people always seem to get tunnel vision and repeatedly run into kill zones but at least the option to back off and try another approach is there for whenever it dawns on them to try something else.

 

[Basketball]

But the name you came up with sucks. "Infilscum" isn't catchy and it doesn't even rhyme with the original word.

EDIT: This is much better
V

Well whatever call me an Infilhater

but the trash/noob friendly/op/babby mode class causes most of the balance issues in the game
op class magnified by annoying players

not for me personally I can take infilscum out no problem but my teammates can't and how the matching is set up it's tough to set out a strategy against full on teams of infilscum
and I'm not an a-hole enough to ragequit/bark orders at my teammates who are here to enjoy a videogame. I have carried my teams countless times against full on 20+ infiltrash. All I can do is call an annoying class dumb names on video game forums .

With the way things are going and new games coming out the numbers are going to drop like a rock and people aren't going to adapt their just going to find other games and that sucks because I don't think the game is bad it just seems the devs/and playtesters were on pcp when they approved some of the designs/decisions in the game

 

[Shouta]

The rush maps are lame in general. I did one on Black Site last night and my team just took over the roof top both rounds and there was pretty much nothing the enemy team could do to stop it. In the regular mode people always seem to get tunnel vision and repeatedly run into kill zones but at least the option to back off and try another approach is there for whenever it dawns on them to try something else.

Everyone on roofs? That's my dream. Get near the bottom of the building, chuck a billion nades up!

 

[Jaeger]

No, I want them to work just as much as any other tactic works.

But fine, I'm not a "good player". Enjoy MGO3, because I don't. Either patches will fix the issues that I, and others, have with the experience, or it'll stay nice and perfect for you.

Personally, I like the game AND recognize the need for improvement. There's some wonderful potential here. It's not always hot and cold, wrong or right, terrible or great.

-

Side note, with the extra vocal people who dislike this to the point of no return, can you tell me a game that was perfect at launch/less than a week into it?

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Everyone on roofs? That's my dream. Get near the bottom of the building, chuck a billion nades up!

Lol they were trying but they couldn't get them very far over the ledge, as long as you were a couple feet from the edge you were fine. I was having a much higher success rate of dropping petrol bombs down onto them.

 

[Primeau31]

thoroughly enjoying this game. thanks to the ps4 gaf community, great bunch of players and everyone has so much fun.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

Well whatever call me an Infilhater

but the trash/noob friendly/op/babby mode class causes most of the balance issues in the game
op class magnified by annoying players

not for me personally I can take infilscum out no problem but my teammates can't and how the matching is set up it's tough to set out a strategy against full on teams of infilscum
and I'm not an a-hole enough to ragequit/bark orders at my teammates who are here to enjoy a videogame. I have carried my teams countless times against full on 20+ infiltrash. All I can do is call an annoying class dumb names on video game forums .

With the way things are going and new games coming out the numbers are going to drop like a rock and people aren't going to adapt their just going to find other games and that sucks because I don't think the game is bad it just seems the devs/and playtesters were on pcp when they approved some of the designs/decisions in the game

Any time I read that the Infiltrator class is a noob class, it makes me think that person hasn't even played the damn game.

Infiltrators are not hard to kill. If they're killing you frequently you need to be more aware, I guess.