Prince of Space said:
Why? They were of the few people who knew the truth of the mission. They alone knew The Boss's secret up to that point, and were stabbed in the back by the system. They had motive, talent, and funding (via The Legacy).
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Metal Gear Solid 4 |OT| No Place to Hide, No Time for a Legend to FoxDie
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Why? They were of the few people who knew the truth of the mission. They alone knew The Boss's secret up to that point, and were stabbed in the back by the system. They had motive, talent, and funding (via The Legacy).
Chiggs
Gold Member
Micromegas said:
The big reveal that Ocelot gives on top of Outer Haven effectively destroys the meaning and significance of a lot of the events in the MGS games, especially since everything was planned from the get go, and apparently, only you and Otacon were the only ones left out of the loop. Also, like someone else pointed out, having the MGS3 codec characters turn into "morally bankrupt" megalomaniacs seems forced.
And de-villifying Ocelot was a horrible, horrible decision.
And de-villifying Ocelot was a horrible, horrible decision.
If this all sits well with you, then fine. But I don't think it's hard to understand the opposing viewpoint in this situation.
Prince of Space
Banned
See, the Philosophers were easier to swallow than the Patriots, because it's stated that they were made up of the rich and powerful from the US, Russia, and China, while the Patriots were created by a rag-tag group of people that include an army(?) major, a medic, and a weapons expert. And they go on to amass more wealth and power than the Philosophers ever dreamed of. It's just a little far-fetched, even for MGS.
Steiner_Zi
Member
What I don't get is *END SPOILERS*DustinC said:
why Ocelot needed to get Snake do that and not do it by himself with Naomi while she was still alive. I know that it was Sunny who searched for Emma's old virus and combined it with the one that Naomi had made, but I don't think there would be no one else in the world who could do this. Why set up all this farce?
Micromegas
Member
Chiggs said:
I didn't have a problem with the above - I got a different message out of it. Also, I wasn't challenging you - I really wanted an explanation, which I will now thank you for.
Prince of Space
Banned
This.Chiggs said:
KolosLazar16
Member
DoctorWho said:
Use mk 2 to knock down psycho mantis and then use the doll to own it, and it counts
Just beat this amazing game and am a bit confused as to a few plot points even though I have played through the series.
I have questions about the ending and story.. spoilers of course
I have questions about the ending and story.. spoilers of course
1.
In the ending it said Big Mama/Ocelot were trying to revive Big Boss from stasis so I guess their plan failed as Drebin's new FOXDIE killed him as well as Big Mama and Ocelot? Who set it up to kill Big Boss from the new mutation? The Patriots or Naomi? I'm a little confused here as to who did what.
2.
Why did Drebin inject Snake originally in the middle east? To stop FOXDIE? The patriots didnt tell him it would also kill Ocelot/Big Mama/Big Boss right? Thats the way I understand it anyway. But if thats the case why didnt Naomi tell Snake about what it would do once he came into contact with them? Why did she only tell Big Boss?
3.
So Big Boss wanted to make peace with Snake but why would he want to die in the process afterwards knowing that if he came into contact it would kill him. Surely its not to stop the endless cycle as Snake is still alive and has genes similar to him anyway.
4.
So what happened with FOXDIE at the end with Snake? I thought it was gonna go airborne if he didnt kill himself? Thats why he was going to kill himself right? So it mutated into another form? how? why? wouldnt it still kill people?
5.
How did Big Boss die at the end? From FOXDIE that Snake carried? If so then what was Naomi and Eva/Big Mama trying to accomplish by setting up Big Boss to die like that? I didn't get this part.
6.
Why can't Snake use FOXALIVE on himself to get rid of FOXDIE?
In the ending it said Big Mama/Ocelot were trying to revive Big Boss from stasis so I guess their plan failed as Drebin's new FOXDIE killed him as well as Big Mama and Ocelot? Who set it up to kill Big Boss from the new mutation? The Patriots or Naomi? I'm a little confused here as to who did what.
2.
Why did Drebin inject Snake originally in the middle east? To stop FOXDIE? The patriots didnt tell him it would also kill Ocelot/Big Mama/Big Boss right? Thats the way I understand it anyway. But if thats the case why didnt Naomi tell Snake about what it would do once he came into contact with them? Why did she only tell Big Boss?
3.
So Big Boss wanted to make peace with Snake but why would he want to die in the process afterwards knowing that if he came into contact it would kill him. Surely its not to stop the endless cycle as Snake is still alive and has genes similar to him anyway.
4.
So what happened with FOXDIE at the end with Snake? I thought it was gonna go airborne if he didnt kill himself? Thats why he was going to kill himself right? So it mutated into another form? how? why? wouldnt it still kill people?
5.
How did Big Boss die at the end? From FOXDIE that Snake carried? If so then what was Naomi and Eva/Big Mama trying to accomplish by setting up Big Boss to die like that? I didn't get this part.
6.
Why can't Snake use FOXALIVE on himself to get rid of FOXDIE?
I really don't have that many problems with the plot of MGS4 and I actually like how it all comes together conceptually, despite my earlier criticisms. (The only real problems I have there are
) No, my major problems with the narrative aren't the actual major story points, but the execution in Acts 4 and 5. Like I've said before, they raise the stakes too high over and over again and put several characters through near-death experiences time and time again and then expect us to feel any tension/worry/concern over their fate. (And that's not even to mention the way the narrative is distributed- with some better editing, I really think the ending could have been made WAY better- even using the exact same story. Too many characters repeat the same explanations and the game cuts to abstract charts and diagrams with voiceovers too many times.)
Ocelot's immunity to Foxdie until, conveniently enough, the climax, as opposed to every other target of it, and Ocelot's seemingly willingness to kill Snake with Outer Haven at the end of Act 4.
boco77 said:
1. The Patriots
2. Drebin work for the patriots,I don't think Naomi knew it would kill everyone
3. See, almost everyone in the game is seeking redempsion. Big Boss, Eva, Naomi, and ocelot found it threw death. Snake was, but he just couldn't do it. Otacon and the rest got redempsion by living and starting a new
4. The new foxdie is killing off the old one, the new one will mutate, but snake will be long dead before that happends
5. There main goal was to destroy the patriots, thats what they did. They wanted to free big boss, we has in between life and death.
6. foxalive is a computer program, snake is not a computer, he is human.
2. Drebin work for the patriots,I don't think Naomi knew it would kill everyone
3. See, almost everyone in the game is seeking redempsion. Big Boss, Eva, Naomi, and ocelot found it threw death. Snake was, but he just couldn't do it. Otacon and the rest got redempsion by living and starting a new
4. The new foxdie is killing off the old one, the new one will mutate, but snake will be long dead before that happends
5. There main goal was to destroy the patriots, thats what they did. They wanted to free big boss, we has in between life and death.
6. foxalive is a computer program, snake is not a computer, he is human.
rollingstart
Banned
traveler said:
If you remember durring the last battle, he was constantly using the syringe to fight against it. I don't see why he couldn't have known that that he was already infected. Big Boss knew and I'm sure that EVA also knew.
Steiner_Zi
Member
Chiggs said:
What are those events whose significance lessens due to the fact that Ocelot actually opposes the Patriots? Ocelot always double-triplecrossed everyone in his way, so I don't see it as contradictory to previous events. In fact, it makes sense that Ocelot pretended to betray Liquid in MGS1 and Solidus in MGS2 in favor of the Patriots but in reality he was always aiding anyone who stood against them. Remember that Liquid demanded the remains of Big Boss in MGS1 and also Sigint died in Shadow Moses?
As for the support team who turns out to be the main villains, at the beginning it sounds far-fetched, sure, but with the Philosopher's Legacy, Big Boss and Zero could accomplish everything they wanted. This doesn't mean that Sigint and Paramedic were their ONLY accomplices, obviously other people jumped in along the way and don't forget that Ocelot and EVA were with them from the start. Paramedic and Sigint were in their 20s-30s during Snake Eater, most people can't be... that "evil" when they are so young and with no power at all.
As for the support team who turns out to be the main villains, at the beginning it sounds far-fetched, sure, but with the Philosopher's Legacy, Big Boss and Zero could accomplish everything they wanted. This doesn't mean that Sigint and Paramedic were their ONLY accomplices, obviously other people jumped in along the way and don't forget that Ocelot and EVA were with them from the start. Paramedic and Sigint were in their 20s-30s during Snake Eater, most people can't be... that "evil" when they are so young and with no power at all.
rollingstart
Banned
traveler said:
Yeah, I think he was still injecting ever since even Act 1 (assuming Foxdie has that large of a radius). Like Naomi said earlier, each time you use the shot, it gets weaker. By the end he had to constantly inject and finally died indulging himself in a fight with the son of his idol.
Chiggs said:
Ocelot was never the 'true' villian. Neither was Liquid, Solidus, or Big Boss. Snake was the pawn in all these situations. Even until the end of MGS4, Snake was still being used as a pawn by the patriots. They were all fighting for freedom and trying to stop the control of The Patriots.
Volgin was a true 'villian'. The Boss wasn't. Similar situation.
Volgin was a true 'villian'. The Boss wasn't. Similar situation.
Ken Masters
Banned
which mission briefing act to I ram Sunny in with the MKII, and Naomi is in act 3 MB right?
Steiner_Zi
Member
Chiggs I have replied to you at the end of last page.
Chiggs
Gold Member
Steiner_Zi said:
Checking it out.
Steiner_Zi said:
First paragraph: Knowing what we know now, Snake's adventures seem to have been seriously degraded, in my opinion. Their impact lessened.
He's nothing but a pawn, and it seems everyone else was in on it, Otacon excluded. That element makes both Snake and Otacon seem like chumps. I don't like that. It's like taking a giant dump on a storied character. All the stuff that happened in MGS1 and 2 seems so, for the lack of a better word, downgraded.
Second paragraph: That's a good point. In some respects, that aspect is actually pretty interesting, I just wish it had been hinted at in earlier games. Having it all dumped on you in Act 3 is a bit overwhelming, even alienating.
I'm replaying the game just to get some more perspective.
Oh, one more thing:
Raiden is essentially a pawn, too? I mean, he killed Solidus.
Chiggs said:
I think it's ridiculous to call Ocelot a 'hero'. He obviously want in any sense of the word. There was one thing however, made clear in Snake Eater. He idolized Big Boss. The fact that he was helping to free Big Boss from The Patriots the entire series doesn't make him any less of a bastard. It just means he was working to free the one man he admired.
Steiner_Zi
Member
Also, please someone tell me
That's one aspect of the story I don't get.
Otherwise,
why Ocelot needed to have Snake destroy the AI and not do it by himself with Naomi while she was still alive. I know that it was Sunny who searched for Emma's old virus and combined it with the one that Naomi had made, but I don't think there would be no one else in the world who could do this.
Otherwise,
I don't think that Big Boss and Zero (whom we don't really get to know in MGS3) being the co-founders of the Patriots, an organisation initially intended to implement the Boss's ideals, is any sort of underwhelming. The true evil Patriots we are accustomed to is the organisation after it got out of control of Zero's hands.
Moz La Punk
Member
Alright, just finished act 3. What the hell. These three acts have all been very different. It's like 3 different games. I love that.
And the end movie of act 3... wow, it beats the end movie of act 2 even. Incredible.
And the end movie of act 3... wow, it beats the end movie of act 2 even. Incredible.
Shinz Kicker said:
To all the responses I went back and beat it, but to be honest I still feel the same way about it... I feel as though it was a bullshit ending. The thing is I can handle hard games, even the most bullshit of ones, including NG:black/sigma on hard (fuck master ninja:lol ), but seriously it pissed me off so much, because at that point I REALLY wanted to see what was going to happen... then I had to do this
bull shit fight, which you don't get checkpoints or anything, which would continously end up on the 3rd stage of the damn thing
edit- awful boss ending, not story ending.
I've just finished the game
. What an awesome experience this was. Best game this gen so far. Absolutely amazing in everything, technically, artistically, storywise, character development, sense of immersion, makind the player feel all kind of emotions and of course, great gameplay. It's already one of my favorite games ever.
As a graphics whore, I should also mention two scenes in particular,
in Act 3 and
at the end. In both occasions, I almost couldn't believe what I was seeing in my screen.
Oh btw, I'm a "Hawk". That good?
or so I think, I'm watching the second credits after snake and big boss's scene, and I don't put it past Kojima to cram a bit more har har
As a graphics whore, I should also mention two scenes in particular,
the bike scene
the fight scene with liquid, with its outstanding lighting
Oh btw, I'm a "Hawk". That good?
Moz La Punk said:
You and me both :lol Though im still not sure what happened at the end.
Did Liquid inject Big Boss's DNA into him, giving him control over the military side of SOP? Also wtf at Naomi. I know who she is...but I never beat MGS1 (still need to get essentials) so im not sure whats up with the crazy double agentness,
Liabe Brave
Member
Sorry, added spoilers about all the MGS 4 stuff (left data from previous games in the clear).
Here's what I got out of the game's exposition:
Throughout the series groups go out of control: the Philosophers were formed in horrified reaction to WWI, but their system prospered on conflict and took advantage--possibly even instigated--WWII; FOX Unit was meant as a tool of democracy but was usurped by Gene and redirected to violence; FOXHOUND repeated that problem with Liquid.
Metal Gear Solid is humanist and individualist.
Big-picture thinking misses the point, Kojima says over and over again. All we have is personal goals and dreams.
Here's what I got out of the game's exposition:
The true villain is not the Patriots. The true villain is the AIs, is the System (and systems in general). I think the point is made quite clearly that the "war economy" and the idea of eventual complete SOP ubiquity weren't planned from the first, they were invented by the AIs.
Throughout the series groups go out of control: the Philosophers were formed in horrified reaction to WWI, but their system prospered on conflict and took advantage--possibly even instigated--WWII; FOX Unit was meant as a tool of democracy but was usurped by Gene and redirected to violence; FOXHOUND repeated that problem with Liquid.
Finally, the Patriots were based on high morality and the ideal of a unified world, but they squabbled and their conflict (and growing technology) led to creation of the AIs and nanomachines, which provided an avenue for total fascist control of all society.
Metal Gear Solid is humanist and individualist.
Given the final debriefing, it turns out that throughout the series very few people are truly evil. It's the rituals and systems they create which cause evil, by ignoring the differences which define who we are, and squelching the humanity that should be uppermost. Ideologies--even ones born from democratic, positive principles like the Boss'--eventually run to disorder and ruin.
mileS said:
Yeah heh I saw that item before the big fight with each side really started and wanted it, then I decided to turn around and help out the rebels (actually it was on accident since I had alert status from being too greedy on the inside of a small building). Next thing I know, boom.
Liabe Brave said:
You know, thats a damn good summary, and done so without spoiling any in game events. Very nice. Though I do have to say, some of the minor "enemies" like Volgin were inherently bad. But like you said, very few, not all.
Steiner_Zi
Member
Liabe Brave, PUT SPOILER TAGS!
Actually, the AIs by the time of MGS4 are the Patriots.
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