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Metal Gear Solid 4 |OT| No Place to Hide, No Time for a Legend to FoxDie

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T

tha_con

Banned
Brobzoid said:
I've always agreed with Shawn's opinion on interactivity in general. But even the way HL2 does it, is just a cut-scene without a new camera angle and some useless interactivity. Of course there is very little of interest to do while some schmo is talking up a storm, so it's basically the same, only you can't skip HL2's "cut-scenes".

I think games should strive for more a more subtle approach, since most games these days have horribly overacted voices, exaggerated movements (for cut-scenes, I understand some games use exaggerated movements to alert the player of incoming attacks and such...) and they hammer plot-points all up in my face. MGS4 is could definitely use some understatements.

A game like Killer7, which admittedly is pretty fucking convoluted story-wise, had very much subtle stuff in it. For instance when your operator would call you to inform you that you had a new mission, he pretended to be a rep. for a political party asking for your vote, but through his voice you could hear that he had said that shit tons of times before and it didn't need any explanation outside the of that, and the fact that it was repeated before each mission. I'm not saying more games should be as fucked up as Killer7 was, but they could do well to learn from some of the aspect of it. Shadow of the Colossus also had a superb foreshadowing going on.

One shouldn't expect everyone to be progressive at once, but I do hope soon more games will take a cue. Especially given the acclaim SotC got, and hopefully team ICO's new game will get.
Click to expand...

The two scenes I think did an amazing job of hopefully illustrating where 'interactive' scenes go, are
The Bike chase in Act 3 and the final fight with Ocelot
. Both of those scenes offer maximum cinematic presentation, while delivering bits of dialog and theater level presentation.
 
T

tha_con

Banned
Jack Scofield said:
Question:

If, as far as the Patriots knew, GW was destroyed during the events of MGS2, then why does it exhibit some control over the SOP system, namely, small arms? The SOP system wasn't created until after GW was fragmented, so why give GW any power at all?

I probably missed the reasoning behind this, but the thought just popped into my head last night.
Click to expand...

I think GW only served as an access point to SOP. It didn't actually have any power, it was just a 'gateway' to the 'system'.
 
A

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
tha_con said:
What games aren't preachy, telling stories of horrors that mirror reality? It's something that tons and tons of games suffer from, from Bioshock to Final Fantasy VII.

As for cutscenes, it would be the opposite if Drebin popped up and said "Sup yo, I got some guns holla, buy what you need" and that was it, offering no character development.

Again, the scenes are skippable. Shawn, again, is just trying to force his HL2 views as 'the way the medium should go' into the publics eye, and it's fucking retarded.

Videogames are a medium like no other because you can do them ALL, he seems to think we have to limit the medium to what the fuck HE likes.


Ugh.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call Gears of War preachy. I never found GTAIV preachy. If GTAIV was preachy, it wasn't in it's cutscenes. There's a difference from telling a story and being preachy.

Skip the cutscenes? You're missing my point. The cutscenes could easily tell the story without being preachy, that's just now how Kojima makes his games. If you skipped Drebin's cutscene, you'd miss
him putting the nanomachines into Snake
which was important to understanding what happens at the end of the game. Are you saying the player has to sacrifice important elements to the story to avoid being preached?
 
1

1stStrike

Banned
shagg_187 said:
How do you unlock 1911 Custom?
Last i heard, you have to wait for Konami to release the password. Is that true?
If so, then how do they expect me to get the Little Gray emblem? :(
Click to expand...

The 1911 custom is the 70th weapon. So if you don't have 69 then you're missing something. And yes, you have to wait for a password from konami.
 
Â

∀ Narayan

Member
tha_con said:
I work for La-Le-Lu-Li-Lo
Click to expand...
It's La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo. Not La-Le-Lu-Li-Lo.

tha_con said:
Ugh...this is dumb.

Edit: The one time someone in "Video Game Journalism" get's to hit mainstream media with some comments, he says something like this.

A language that isn't native to its own medium? Retarded. Mr. Interactivity needs to give it a rest.
Click to expand...
You know, just because he says something that not everyone can agree to, doesn't mean his opinion is stupid.
 
D

Durante

Member
tha_con said:
The two scenes I think did an amazing job of hopefully illustrating where 'interactive' scenes go, are
The Bike chase in Act 3 and the final fight with Ocelot
. Both of those scenes offer maximum cinematic presentation, while delivering bits of dialog and theater level presentation.
Click to expand...
I'd add the
Rex vs. Ray
battle to that list. Sure, it was even more interactive than those you mentioned, but the whole presentation and situational moves also made it extremely cinematic and impressive.
 
B

Brobzoid

how do I slip unnoticed out of a gloryhole booth?
I just completed the first of your examples, so I can't speak for the second one. But I found that I spent an awful lot of time holding down L1. I didn't even realize the cinematic aspect until I wanted to spin the camera around since it's quicker than moving it around with L1 pressed. So while I agree it was very well executed sequence, I felt a lot of shit was thrown at me in such a way I was almost constantly aiming and shooting (with a piece of shit gun btw) at some thing.

to again reference Killer7, there is a gun duel(boss fight) there that's just pure awesome. And from what I remember it's not because of some cinematic element achieved through camera manipulation, but rather the intense tension created from the very concept of the duel. Not trying to diminish the value of these sequences in mgs4 in any way, but I just remembered this part of k7, so I felt I had to throw it out there :)


edit: arrg. I need to finish this game before coming into this thread again :( I don't want to read any spoilers... but that blasted raven. :mad:
 
E

Elbrain

Suckin' dicks since '66
I just download the MGS4 data base and I have to say wow very fucking nice thing. Other series need to do something similar if their franchises have multiple games. Would love to see one for the Final Fantasy series.
 
T

tha_con

Banned
ICallItFutile said:
I wouldn't call Gears of War preachy. I never found GTAIV preachy. If GTAIV was preachy, it wasn't in it's cutscenes. There's a difference from telling a story and being preachy.

Skip the cutscenes? You're missing my point. The cutscenes could easily tell the story without being preachy, that's just now how Kojima makes his games. If you skipped Drebin's cutscene, you'd miss
him putting the nanomachines into Snake
which was important to understanding what happens at the end of the game. Are you saying the player has to sacrifice important elements to the story to avoid being preached?
Click to expand...

I didn't say all games were preachy, I said a lot were. Shawn just plays favorites in what he picks apart and views as 'negative'.

To someone like Shawn, if you held no interest in story, non-interactive cutscenes, and the preachy tone, you can skip it. It's quite obvious that Shawn doesn't hold the story at all in high regard, so why on gods green earth would he watch it and THEN complain about it?

That's like knowing you don't like fire, but sticking your hand in the furnace and complaining because it's too hot. Ridiculous.

Also, my point was, a lot of those scenes are there in order to trigger something emotionally. It may not be entirely relevant, but it builds the character, and later, when the 'big revelation' comes around, it gives it more impact. If you only had 3 lines of dialog and a
nano machine injection scene
from Drebin, everything about him becomes paper thin, and his reveal at the end is meaningless.
 
M

mjc

Member
I agreed with what Shawn was saying in this last GFW podcast, he makes some pretty valid points.
The bike chase and final fight were excellent examples of how Kojima could have spread it even further to the Raiden segments and others as well.
 
1

1stStrike

Banned
Elbrain said:
I just download the MGS4 data base and I have to say wow very fucking nice thing. Other series need to do something similar if their franchises have multiple games. Would love to see one for the Final Fantasy series.
Click to expand...

Yea but uh..besides FFX and FFX-2 none of the FF games are related to each other. I don't really think it would work as well as it does with a game series with 20 years of story all related to each other.
 
S

Shinz Kicker

Banned
Brobzoid said:
I just completed the first of your examples, so I can't speak for the second one. But I found that I spent an awful lot of time holding down L1. I didn't even realize the cinematic aspect until I wanted to spin the camera around since it's quicker than moving it around with L1 pressed. So while I agree it was very well executed sequence, I felt a lot of shit was thrown at me in such a way I was almost constantly aiming and shooting (with a piece of shit gun btw) at some thing.

edit: arrg. I need to finish this game before coming into this thread again :( I don't want to read any spoilers... but that blasted raven. :mad:
Click to expand...

you can equip a p90 or bizon during that part
 
I

Issun23

Member
1stStrike said:
Yea but uh..besides FFX and FFX-2 none of the FF games are related to each other. I don't really think it would work as well as it does with a game series with 20 years of story all related to each other.
Click to expand...

The Suikoden series could do with one though. Plenty of history and characters in the seven or so games released so far.
 
E

Elbrain

Suckin' dicks since '66
1stStrike said:
Yea but uh..besides FFX and FFX-2 none of the FF games are related to each other. I don't really think it would work as well as it does with a game series with 20 years of story all related to each other.
Click to expand...

Who cares if they don't release I just would like to read all the info in one place also one for the Resident Evil series would be awesome.
 
T

tha_con

Banned
U K Narayan said:
It's La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo. Not La-Le-Lu-Li-Lo.


You know, just because he says something that not everyone can agree to, doesn't mean his opinion is stupid.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction.

As for his opinion, the reason I say it's 'stupid' is for two reasons.

1. Shawn wants games to be HL2. He wants that presentation, or nothing at all. If it isn't HL2, it's "not the language of the medium".

2. Calling a game 'preachy' is a stretch. Especially coming from a fan of Bioshock, which tells a story of the dangers of "genetic engineering" and a controlled Utopia.

Honestly, his opinions never come off as subjective, they come off as "this shit isn't HL2, fuck this, it's lame". Then he covers it up with a wishy washy 'oh but I did enjoy this'. Even on his blog he opens with the negative, then follows with a weak list of 'things he enjoyed'.
 
M

mjc

Member
He is right though, at least to a degree. There are some cut scenes in MGS4 that just did not end, and the content wasn't nearly as gripping as some of the interactive parts.
 
T

tha_con

Banned
mjc said:
He is right though, at least to a degree. There are some cut scenes in MGS4 that just did not end, and the content wasn't nearly as gripping as some of the interactive parts.
Click to expand...

And how does this relate to cutscenes not being the 'language of the medium'? That's a fucking retarded thing to say, and living proof that Shawn either wants HL2 style narrative, or nothing else at all.

Content aside, the DIRECTION of the MGS4 cutscenes is spectacular. Ignoring the dialog or story content, you can't help but wonder what HL2 would have been like with the same direction, instead of wondering around hitting tin cans and crates while NPC's takled to you.

Either way, there is room for all different types of Narrative, and Shawns absolute inability to accept that illustrates a problem with gaming, and attitudes like his can only hold back the medium, not advance it.
 
M

mjc

Member
The main thing is that its taking you out of the action. In some cases that's acceptable but for a majority of the cut scenes in MGS4 you should have been able to have some kind of interaction with what you were watching. There's really no excuse not to add varying layers of interaction. (The L1 button prompts were a start in the right direction)
 
neoism

neoism

Member
Just beat it for the second time and its still spectacular.
Guys how long do we have to use spoiler tags, I've read this whole thread and it looks like a government document with black magic marker lines everywhere.
 
J

jtardiou

Banned
Hey guys I have a very important question.. It might not seem very important to you, but this is very big moment in my life..

I am very poor, but I am a big fan of the MGS franchise (there is nothing in gaming of this quality?).

I am giving serious thought in giving in and buying a PS3. My question is: Is there a chance for MGS4 to come out on Xbox360 or PC? If I buy a PS3 for MGS4 and then a few months later gets anounced on PC I will feel terrible for years..

Sorry if my english sucks xD
 
D

Doc Evils

Member
jtardiou said:
Hey guys I have a very important question.. It might not seem very important to you, but this is very big moment in my life..

I am very poor, but I am a big fan of the MGS franchise (there is nothing in gaming of this quality?).

I am giving serious thought in giving in and buying a PS3. My question is: Is there a chance for MGS4 to come out on Xbox360 or PC? If I buy a PS3 for MGS4 and then a few months later gets anounced on PC I will feel terrible for years..

Sorry if my english sucks xD
Click to expand...

no.
 
D

Dr.Hadji

Member
Maverick said:
MGS4 is the greatest single videogame experience I've ever had for that reason alone. It transcends the game itself and all its parts. It evoked childhood memories not just of playing videogames, but of my father, my friends, autumn, my old basement hangout, and many other things that mean nothing to you. But those of you of the "Net-generation" who grew up on Metal Gear, you probably had your own personal memories come flooding back.
Click to expand...

Now you know how the Nintendo "fanboy" thinks. Now we've entered a time of convergence where we can all understand all the things unseen in games that affect us all in different ways!!

Or not. Unfortunately some of us didn't get into MGS until later on in the series life. For me it was MGS2.
And even if they replaced that MGS emulation with one of MGS2 and they recreated Big Shell instead of Shadow Moses my flood of memories would have been much weaker than yours. I played MGS2 during one of the lower points in my life, so being brought back to that time wouldn't have resonated so strongly.

And though I still have my complaints about
Act 4
from a gameplay perspective, I can respect the scene now in that it dares to deliver a personal message to the gamer. A message that would affect someone much the same way as something from another game would me. Nostalgia is powerful Gu-jo. You can't blame someone for falling spell to it nor take an objective stance when you don't.
 
M

MoonsaultSlayer

Member
jtardiou said:
Hey guys I have a very important question.. It might not seem very important to you, but this is very big moment in my life..

I am very poor, but I am a big fan of the MGS franchise (there is nothing in gaming of this quality?).

I am giving serious thought in giving in and buying a PS3. My question is: Is there a chance for MGS4 to come out on Xbox360 or PC? If I buy a PS3 for MGS4 and then a few months later gets anounced on PC I will feel terrible for years..

Sorry if my english sucks xD
Click to expand...

Better to be poor with a PS3 + MGS4 than having an extra $400-500 with no MGS4.
 
B

bloody pirate

Banned
wow over a million views .. with hardly any mention about the MP aspect... im standing behind my prediction of this game reaching halo 3 levels in views
 
X

Xtyle

Member
mjc said:
The main thing is that its taking you out of the action. In some cases that's acceptable but for a majority of the cut scenes in MGS4 you should have been able to have some kind of interaction with what you were watching. There's really no excuse not to add varying layers of interaction. (The L1 button prompts were a start in the right direction)
Click to expand...

While I agree somewhat but there are also not a lot of that you can do with cutscenes.

Only other thing I can think of do to in MGS4 cutscenes that would be interesting is if you can choose items, weapons or what ever in cutscenes that acts as some kind of trigger...like you have to give someone a gun, for example.

For MGS4, and the MGS series, the cutscenes work fine. You may not like it, but you are in the minority I would think.
 
P

psycho_snake

I went to WAGs boutique and all I got was a sniff
Dax01 said:
Just saw the
Vamp vs Raiden fight
. Had me on the edge of my seat the whole time.
Click to expand...
Even after finishing the game, thats still one of my favourite cutscenes.
 
P

psycho_snake

I went to WAGs boutique and all I got was a sniff
I'm about to start a new game. Now if I start a new game with my completed file, will I get to keep all the emblems I already aquired through my first playthrough of the game?
 
M

Mromson

Member
psycho_snake said:
I'm about to start a new game. Now if I start a new game with my completed file, will I get to keep all the emblems I already aquired through my first playthrough of the game?
Click to expand...
yupp, weapons, items, costumes, DP and ipod music as well.
 
J

JCtheMC

Member
Hahaha i just started a run on The Boss Extreme and i can't even get to the MKII without getting an alert.
The fact that the PMC's now hear every fucking footstep is really fucking with me. Also, they seem to find the guys i stun, so they go into alert almost immediately.
I salute you guys that can go through it under 4 hours... how you do it is beyond me. I might actually pick up the LE guide for this now :lol
 
M

Mromson

Member
JCtheMC said:
Hahaha i just started a run on The Boss Extreme and i can't even get to the MKII without getting an alert.
The fact that the PMC's now hear every fucking footstep is really fucking with me. Also, they seem to find the guys i stun, so they go into alert almost immediately.
I salute you guys that can go through it under 4 hours... how you do it is beyond me. I might actually pick up the LE guide for this now :lol
Click to expand...
I'm finishing all the embelems before I start on Extreme. :D
 
B

Brobzoid

how do I slip unnoticed out of a gloryhole booth?
when you complete the game is there unlocked an option for playing the game that has the game end if you're detected? I really like that mode in the previous mgs.
 
1

1stStrike

Banned
JCtheMC said:
Hahaha i just started a run on The Boss Extreme and i can't even get to the MKII without getting an alert.
The fact that the PMC's now hear every fucking footstep is really fucking with me. Also, they seem to find the guys i stun, so they go into alert almost immediately.
I salute you guys that can go through it under 4 hours... how you do it is beyond me. I might actually pick up the LE guide for this now :lol
Click to expand...

Anytime you walk anywhere you should be pretty much crouch walking or just flat out crawling. Make sure you use the solid eye and threat ring to your advantage. And think stealth. There's not many places in the game on extreme where you can just flat out run from point A to point B. You can still get places quickly though.

All you gotta do is beat it under 5 hours..which is very doable without any cut scenes thrown into the mix. Even if you take 15 - 20 minutes on a couple boss fights, you'll still have extra time.
 
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