Gamer @ Heart
Member
dermannmitdemcolt said:
What you just described is the quintisential fanboy.
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Metal Gear Solid 4 |OT| No Place to Hide, No Time for a Legend to FoxDie
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What you just described is the quintisential fanboy.
Gamer @ Heart said:
I think Big Boss acknowledges a brother on the battlefield (as was clear when he says "or should I call you brother"). Obviously they were created from the same genetic information, which technically makes them closer to brothers than it does father and son, IMO.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
tha_con said:
Very true. I agree.
But, that wasnt what the other dude was calling me out about.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
kamorra said:
Yep, and thats what the dude that said kojima was spitting on them is, it seems. Too passionate.
It wasnt a jab at the guy i quoted.
â Narayan
Member
I disagree. I feel that Kojima was more inclined to satisfy fans, rather than give Metal Gear Solid 4 the story a lot of hardcore fans expected. (Especially when coming off of MGS2.)SMZC said:
I, for one, am pretty disappointed with MGS4's story. But, by no means do I think that Kojima did something as drastic as spit on the series. It seems he made the game entirely for his fans, and not for himself. I feel that this was a mistake.
Bingo. But I still hold Snake Eater as the best in the series.Chinner said:
Gamer @ Heart said:
The CQC to embracement has shown that he has accepted him as son(family member) and the use of past tense in that specific sentence fortified it. He used the "or should I call you brother" sentence, because as tha_con said he was made from the same genetic information that makes Snake also a brother. But either way I'm rather inclined to see it as a meeting between "Father & Son" and IMO that's how they think of each other at that scene.
I gave myself some time before judging Metal Gear Solid 4 to wash away some of the hype, and it's been more than a week since I've completed it in about 20 hours over two sessions. I'll just spoiler the whole thing so I can concentrate on what I'm writing than try to keep out spoilers. I won't be able to cover everything because I have so many thoughts, but I'll articulate what I can as clearly as I can.
I feel like I've been supremely harsh on it in my post. I would love it if Payton could point out some of our qualms on this board to Kojima, because I'll still put down money on Kojipro's games without hesitation, but would prefer Kojima to keep progressing as an artiste and game maker. At the end of the day I still deeply enjoyed MGS4, and I couldn't put the controller down except when I had to sleep. I don't believe in "best games ever" and I wouldn't be able to answer you if you asked what I felt was the "best game" for me, since my thoughts about them are so complex. In that sense, I feel that MGS 1, 2, 3 and 4 are all extremely memorable in their own rights and their progression carries the weight of their predecessors. 1's groundbreaking cinematic feel and gameplay. 2's experimental progression and controvery. 3's streamlining and refining. 4's ambition to wrap up the previous 3 and Snake.
Top series.
Beginning with the presentation of MGS4, it really wowed in many areas. It's a technical accomplishment and for me the game grew graphically more impressive as it progressed, which I think should be linked to how the game was developed (sequentially from the first to last act). It does present a possible and believable world and atmosphere, and showers that with plenty of detail both visually and aurally.
However, I don't think it gives you enough of a sense of "world" despite taking you across so many places. For example, the civilians in Act 3's train station all but disappeared when you left the station and began your stalking. The city did not fully feel like a living breathing city (not to say it did not feel immersive/believable at all) when it began basically a very game-y situation with "stalking", "clearing" the way for your target and occasionally "hiding" from the patrols. There wasn't even the presence of other people and in retrospect it's very much a mere setup without any real significance to the place. While playing the game it didn't feel like this at all because I was so intensely focused on the task at hand, so credit to Kojipro for that.
I do think that masterful director would have been able to subtly show slices of the life surrounding the locales Snake visits and bring them instantly to life. Cuts of civilian scenes in Act 2 before the Gecko wreck wreck the stalls and Snake makes his way out could have established a psychological foresight in the players that there were people and that the battle was *real*. Instead the escape through the stalls were used only as another game-y setup with the civilians running and wildly screaming alongside you. It isn't that Kojima or Kojipro can't be subtle.. see how in your mission briefings where you can control the Mark II. You go to the hangar and you see a teddy bear along the wall and you instantly connect it to Sunny, and it clues you into her world, her things and her life on the vessel. Why is the doll there? Has she grown out of it? Does she know it's there? I'm not even overemphasizing on this minor point; I do think that these putting these little details into MGS4 could have made it so much more "full".. it requires mastery though, like Harper Lee's maintenance of Boo Radley as a character throughout To Kill a Mocking Bird although he appeared in person only for a few pages.
The game-y setup of the game also makes Act I feel so "thin".. you enter the rebel's headquarters and you see the range of it - the planning, the injured, the examination of enemy equipment (the flying bombers) etc. But the rebels never realise themselves as more than a tool of gameplay because you never have any "moments" with them. Strangely enough the rebels didn't have a representative character who you bonded with, making them even more faceless and seem more like bullet sponges in return. No deadly screams of family and mourning as they die, making the "We've done it!!!!" celebrations when PMCs are cleared be an indication only of the game area being clear of PMCs to the player -- and not an indication that the rebels have really won it. There is no extended significance of their victory beyond the fact that you don't need to raise your gun in that map anymore.
Unlike other posters, I had no struggles with the gameplay. I don't regard myself as a very good gamer but I finished MGS4 without any real frustration. Died once for Laughing Octopus and never at the other bosses, including the final fight with Ocelot. I also had no qualms with the gameplay variety in all the areas, except that it was maybe too simple. When Naomi's footsteps disappeared I basically guessed that she must have been carried and before I could do anything about it myself I was immediately informed that must have been the case and I should look for the heavier footprints. Goddamn. Unsatisfying. Also, some other posters have noted how Solid Eye NV is overpowered -- it is! It flattens the sightscape to target and non-target, and I ran through most of the game with it switched on. In some areas, 30fps would turn to 60fps with the Solid Eye NV on. Amusing.
My core issues with the gameplay of MGS4 is also how it's not as richly and fully realised as previous games, particularly MGS3. I do think that The End is one of the greatest boss fights ever in videogame history and it never felt close to that for MGS4. With the tracking of Laughing Octopus, the atmosphere of Crying Wolf and the amusement of Screaming Mantis, it is still far better than many other games but MGS4 seems more like an assembling of previous bosses. The tribute in the names is obvious enough, but MGS4 never put me in a situation of "wow" that all previous MGSes did in some way. If it was an homage to the previous games it could have squeezed more out of it, including more easter eggs and such like the "RUMBLE!!!" scene with Screaming Mantis but alas it was not meant to be.
In terms of normal non-boss gameplay, I gradually progressed from a Rambo man to the regular stealth mode as the game went on. I learned to use the Mark II (or Mark III) and to use the tranquilizer gun more often, and it did make the game feel alot like old MGS, which was nice. I don't think I have too much more complaints about the gameplay, even as it thinned out towards the end. It was all well worth it.
And now I'll move to my last issue, although I'm thinking of so much more I need to end this post somehow ; ) And this is about the cinematics and the story of MGS4. I'm not a huge MGS story freak; I love the series for strengths of its own but I'm not nearly fanatical. Many of the plot points passed me by but I share the same sentiment with some of the more cynical, skeptical or critical posters here -- that MGS4 had plenty of cheesy, corny, unbelievable and urghhhh moments. I'll toast to Kojima's genius (or rather his idiosyncracies) and I accept MGS4 as his seminal work so I'll only say that if I were working on MGS4 I would definitely not have shaped the game that way.
Meryl/Jonny's romance and proposal scene was ridiculous and out-of-place, and it flattened Meryl from being a complex personality to being a tool or arbitrary character of Kojipro's will. It utterly killed the believability of her character and my thoughts drifted more to Kojima than the character/game itself, which is not a good sign. Raiden's getting off the Rex, getting trapped by the rocks, cutting off his arm, defending Snake by stopping the ramming vessel and shouting "ROSE!!!" before the rocks smashed was all a bunch of too straightforward shit. This could all have happened more believably if it were presented or written in a different way.. instead right from the moment of Raiden's jumping off the Rex I sensed a scenario set up and there it was. The worst of it, as some of us saw it, was that Raiden didn't die. Instead his miraculous revival was brought to fore only by Snake's one sentence in the next scene "So he's going to make it eh.." Goddamn. It was ridiculous. For one moment I thought that MGS4 was going to go "all Japanese" and have plenty of the main leads die.. but it was not meant to be.
Big Boss's appearance in the final scene is a contentious part. Did Snake manage to shoot himself or was he unable to kill himself? But Big Boss must have been standing there all the time; so was he watching Snake go through the whole scene and ONLY begin talking after Snake "missed" his shot? Wow. Kat's explanation outlines the elegance of the MGS mythology and core storyline but it was executed pretty poorly. The marriage scene was horrible as well; the "revelation" that "Rat Ptol 1" was really "Patriots" was mind numbingly bah. My aesthetic side is also pretty critical of when Drebin comes over and releases the petals and birds in the air.. Kojipro must have had very very little time with that scene because the effects were rubbish. It is basically the one big sore visual thumb for me throughout all of MGS4. However, one moment was real for me.. when Sunny asks if Snake was coming back, and Otacon says that "Snake had a hard life.." that was real, that brought the world out and fleshed the characters. The voice acting was a little stiff, but I was moved by that line. Let's not start on Raiden's scene, which was just a tad too long. Better editing please. I want to say that the Raiden's kid was superbly animated. Maybe one of the best animated in terms of expression.. the wide-eyed expression and hesitance you could see in his behavior and expression was amazing. For all the work in MGS4, that kid had the most life.
I am clear that the MGS games are a special breed, and I do love them. My criticisms above might make it seem like I hate the game but I do not; it raises alot of issues and concerns in me because it tries to do so much but perhaps approaches the task at hand too naively. It is deeply ambitious in its themes, story and character centricity but I feel that Kojipro put too much on their plate for MGS4. All that happened in MGS4 are very much acceptable in the established anime-manga sort of culture in Japan.. characters surviving miraculously, escaping death, paired up (or "shipped", as they call it in anime circles) and such. All happening to the bewilderment and ridicule of most Western tastes but all are really quite acceptable moves in that form of Japanese culture and entertainment.
In the end, I think Kojima's contributions to the MGS series in terms of how much control he has has been overstated. His return to MGS was forced by fans. The preservation of a character like Raiden despite his elaborate death-scene setup was possibly motivated by fans. The survival of Snake which Kojima himself hinted was not supposed to be (and that the current ending was one he was persuaded to accept implementing by his colleagues and not the one that he wanted) was also not of his willing. As a result MGS4 is more schizophrenic than should be the work of an auteur; for example that of Hayao Miyazaki.
The mish mash of everything does not result in Metal Gear Solid 4 being a poor game. It keeps itself alive through the mythology it has built up and ultimately through Solid Snake. Our love for Snake forced his "fake return" in MGS3 after Raiden's appearance in MGS2. And our love of Snake forced Kojima's return to MGS. Kojima, in a way, is intending to escape his fans and future death threats by ending the chapter of Snake -- ALMOST killing him. But Kojipro peeps kept our hero alive. MGS4 is ultimately the story of Solid Snake and a wrap up of his life and legend. The bits and pieces building Snake's legend (by Meryl's exposition and so forth) and reminders of Snake's ageing, the Act 4 return to Shadow Moses, the injury and patheticness of Snake ever-increasing as the Acts fly by... all of these confluence to build the character and his sending off. Most of us felt the panic and pain as we mashed triangle to get him out of that microwave room.. and being moved; affected, as the gunfire sounded in the graveyard scene..
The final scenes, purely audio, where Snake, Otacon and Sunny will be together until the end of Snake's days is amazing. 100% Japanese. And I can't wait till I buy the Japanese version to hear it the entire dialogue in Japanese.
However, I don't think it gives you enough of a sense of "world" despite taking you across so many places. For example, the civilians in Act 3's train station all but disappeared when you left the station and began your stalking. The city did not fully feel like a living breathing city (not to say it did not feel immersive/believable at all) when it began basically a very game-y situation with "stalking", "clearing" the way for your target and occasionally "hiding" from the patrols. There wasn't even the presence of other people and in retrospect it's very much a mere setup without any real significance to the place. While playing the game it didn't feel like this at all because I was so intensely focused on the task at hand, so credit to Kojipro for that.
I do think that masterful director would have been able to subtly show slices of the life surrounding the locales Snake visits and bring them instantly to life. Cuts of civilian scenes in Act 2 before the Gecko wreck wreck the stalls and Snake makes his way out could have established a psychological foresight in the players that there were people and that the battle was *real*. Instead the escape through the stalls were used only as another game-y setup with the civilians running and wildly screaming alongside you. It isn't that Kojima or Kojipro can't be subtle.. see how in your mission briefings where you can control the Mark II. You go to the hangar and you see a teddy bear along the wall and you instantly connect it to Sunny, and it clues you into her world, her things and her life on the vessel. Why is the doll there? Has she grown out of it? Does she know it's there? I'm not even overemphasizing on this minor point; I do think that these putting these little details into MGS4 could have made it so much more "full".. it requires mastery though, like Harper Lee's maintenance of Boo Radley as a character throughout To Kill a Mocking Bird although he appeared in person only for a few pages.
The game-y setup of the game also makes Act I feel so "thin".. you enter the rebel's headquarters and you see the range of it - the planning, the injured, the examination of enemy equipment (the flying bombers) etc. But the rebels never realise themselves as more than a tool of gameplay because you never have any "moments" with them. Strangely enough the rebels didn't have a representative character who you bonded with, making them even more faceless and seem more like bullet sponges in return. No deadly screams of family and mourning as they die, making the "We've done it!!!!" celebrations when PMCs are cleared be an indication only of the game area being clear of PMCs to the player -- and not an indication that the rebels have really won it. There is no extended significance of their victory beyond the fact that you don't need to raise your gun in that map anymore.
Unlike other posters, I had no struggles with the gameplay. I don't regard myself as a very good gamer but I finished MGS4 without any real frustration. Died once for Laughing Octopus and never at the other bosses, including the final fight with Ocelot. I also had no qualms with the gameplay variety in all the areas, except that it was maybe too simple. When Naomi's footsteps disappeared I basically guessed that she must have been carried and before I could do anything about it myself I was immediately informed that must have been the case and I should look for the heavier footprints. Goddamn. Unsatisfying. Also, some other posters have noted how Solid Eye NV is overpowered -- it is! It flattens the sightscape to target and non-target, and I ran through most of the game with it switched on. In some areas, 30fps would turn to 60fps with the Solid Eye NV on. Amusing.
My core issues with the gameplay of MGS4 is also how it's not as richly and fully realised as previous games, particularly MGS3. I do think that The End is one of the greatest boss fights ever in videogame history and it never felt close to that for MGS4. With the tracking of Laughing Octopus, the atmosphere of Crying Wolf and the amusement of Screaming Mantis, it is still far better than many other games but MGS4 seems more like an assembling of previous bosses. The tribute in the names is obvious enough, but MGS4 never put me in a situation of "wow" that all previous MGSes did in some way. If it was an homage to the previous games it could have squeezed more out of it, including more easter eggs and such like the "RUMBLE!!!" scene with Screaming Mantis but alas it was not meant to be.
In terms of normal non-boss gameplay, I gradually progressed from a Rambo man to the regular stealth mode as the game went on. I learned to use the Mark II (or Mark III) and to use the tranquilizer gun more often, and it did make the game feel alot like old MGS, which was nice. I don't think I have too much more complaints about the gameplay, even as it thinned out towards the end. It was all well worth it.
And now I'll move to my last issue, although I'm thinking of so much more I need to end this post somehow ; ) And this is about the cinematics and the story of MGS4. I'm not a huge MGS story freak; I love the series for strengths of its own but I'm not nearly fanatical. Many of the plot points passed me by but I share the same sentiment with some of the more cynical, skeptical or critical posters here -- that MGS4 had plenty of cheesy, corny, unbelievable and urghhhh moments. I'll toast to Kojima's genius (or rather his idiosyncracies) and I accept MGS4 as his seminal work so I'll only say that if I were working on MGS4 I would definitely not have shaped the game that way.
Meryl/Jonny's romance and proposal scene was ridiculous and out-of-place, and it flattened Meryl from being a complex personality to being a tool or arbitrary character of Kojipro's will. It utterly killed the believability of her character and my thoughts drifted more to Kojima than the character/game itself, which is not a good sign. Raiden's getting off the Rex, getting trapped by the rocks, cutting off his arm, defending Snake by stopping the ramming vessel and shouting "ROSE!!!" before the rocks smashed was all a bunch of too straightforward shit. This could all have happened more believably if it were presented or written in a different way.. instead right from the moment of Raiden's jumping off the Rex I sensed a scenario set up and there it was. The worst of it, as some of us saw it, was that Raiden didn't die. Instead his miraculous revival was brought to fore only by Snake's one sentence in the next scene "So he's going to make it eh.." Goddamn. It was ridiculous. For one moment I thought that MGS4 was going to go "all Japanese" and have plenty of the main leads die.. but it was not meant to be.
Big Boss's appearance in the final scene is a contentious part. Did Snake manage to shoot himself or was he unable to kill himself? But Big Boss must have been standing there all the time; so was he watching Snake go through the whole scene and ONLY begin talking after Snake "missed" his shot? Wow. Kat's explanation outlines the elegance of the MGS mythology and core storyline but it was executed pretty poorly. The marriage scene was horrible as well; the "revelation" that "Rat Ptol 1" was really "Patriots" was mind numbingly bah. My aesthetic side is also pretty critical of when Drebin comes over and releases the petals and birds in the air.. Kojipro must have had very very little time with that scene because the effects were rubbish. It is basically the one big sore visual thumb for me throughout all of MGS4. However, one moment was real for me.. when Sunny asks if Snake was coming back, and Otacon says that "Snake had a hard life.." that was real, that brought the world out and fleshed the characters. The voice acting was a little stiff, but I was moved by that line. Let's not start on Raiden's scene, which was just a tad too long. Better editing please. I want to say that the Raiden's kid was superbly animated. Maybe one of the best animated in terms of expression.. the wide-eyed expression and hesitance you could see in his behavior and expression was amazing. For all the work in MGS4, that kid had the most life.
I am clear that the MGS games are a special breed, and I do love them. My criticisms above might make it seem like I hate the game but I do not; it raises alot of issues and concerns in me because it tries to do so much but perhaps approaches the task at hand too naively. It is deeply ambitious in its themes, story and character centricity but I feel that Kojipro put too much on their plate for MGS4. All that happened in MGS4 are very much acceptable in the established anime-manga sort of culture in Japan.. characters surviving miraculously, escaping death, paired up (or "shipped", as they call it in anime circles) and such. All happening to the bewilderment and ridicule of most Western tastes but all are really quite acceptable moves in that form of Japanese culture and entertainment.
In the end, I think Kojima's contributions to the MGS series in terms of how much control he has has been overstated. His return to MGS was forced by fans. The preservation of a character like Raiden despite his elaborate death-scene setup was possibly motivated by fans. The survival of Snake which Kojima himself hinted was not supposed to be (and that the current ending was one he was persuaded to accept implementing by his colleagues and not the one that he wanted) was also not of his willing. As a result MGS4 is more schizophrenic than should be the work of an auteur; for example that of Hayao Miyazaki.
The mish mash of everything does not result in Metal Gear Solid 4 being a poor game. It keeps itself alive through the mythology it has built up and ultimately through Solid Snake. Our love for Snake forced his "fake return" in MGS3 after Raiden's appearance in MGS2. And our love of Snake forced Kojima's return to MGS. Kojima, in a way, is intending to escape his fans and future death threats by ending the chapter of Snake -- ALMOST killing him. But Kojipro peeps kept our hero alive. MGS4 is ultimately the story of Solid Snake and a wrap up of his life and legend. The bits and pieces building Snake's legend (by Meryl's exposition and so forth) and reminders of Snake's ageing, the Act 4 return to Shadow Moses, the injury and patheticness of Snake ever-increasing as the Acts fly by... all of these confluence to build the character and his sending off. Most of us felt the panic and pain as we mashed triangle to get him out of that microwave room.. and being moved; affected, as the gunfire sounded in the graveyard scene..
The final scenes, purely audio, where Snake, Otacon and Sunny will be together until the end of Snake's days is amazing. 100% Japanese. And I can't wait till I buy the Japanese version to hear it the entire dialogue in Japanese.
I feel like I've been supremely harsh on it in my post. I would love it if Payton could point out some of our qualms on this board to Kojima, because I'll still put down money on Kojipro's games without hesitation, but would prefer Kojima to keep progressing as an artiste and game maker. At the end of the day I still deeply enjoyed MGS4, and I couldn't put the controller down except when I had to sleep. I don't believe in "best games ever" and I wouldn't be able to answer you if you asked what I felt was the "best game" for me, since my thoughts about them are so complex. In that sense, I feel that MGS 1, 2, 3 and 4 are all extremely memorable in their own rights and their progression carries the weight of their predecessors. 1's groundbreaking cinematic feel and gameplay. 2's experimental progression and controvery. 3's streamlining and refining. 4's ambition to wrap up the previous 3 and Snake.
Top series.
I had a marathon game run last night. I played MGS4 for 8 hours straight. I cannot remember the last time I played a game for that long with zero breaks. All that time and I didn't even finish two acts (on Big Boss Hard)! I did all of act 4 and I think almost all of act 5. I had to take a break and sleep unfortunately because my mind was getting really loopy at 2:30 AM
. Now I'm at work and I have to wait 8 more hours till I can go home and finish the game! 
This game is the most elaborate and expensive piece of FANGASM that I have ever witnessed. All I can say is THANK GOD I'M A MGS FAN! It makes me appreciate the game the way no newcomer could ever dream. I cannot believe how something can be so awesome and so stupid at the same time. Looking at it critically, there is so much wrong with the cutscenes: the length, the pacing, the groan-worthy melodrama, the 4th wall jokes - sooo bad. Looking at is as an MGS fan: ZOMG! Did you see that...?! Did he just...? F'in SWEEET!
While the cutscenes are stupid awesome, the gameplay is just awesome. The graphics, the sound, the controls, the steath, the action, the environments, the variety, the rumble, Mind blowing every single gameplay element.
Playing the game on Big Boss Hard has been an excellent decision for me. It has been challenging but never too frustrating
was the biggest pain in the ass. How anyone could go through that without setting off an alert is way beyond my comprehention. I've never had to check here or Gamefacs for any hints so far.
was the trickiest boss by far for me. Mostly because
but I finally put 2 and 2 together. My biggest annoyance - I have so far taken out every single boss by non leathal means, but the
All in all I am so glad that the game is selling well. KojiPro deserves the success and I hope it continues to do well. The Metal Gear 4 engine is phenominal an I want to see more games use it. Even if it's MGS4 SubSandwich (cred to Wombat from CAG) with 1000 VR missions and additonal scenarios.
it made the Screaming Mantis fight all the more awesome! I just hacked into GW and shut down the entire AI system. I can't imagine I have that much gameplay left.
This game is the most elaborate and expensive piece of FANGASM that I have ever witnessed. All I can say is THANK GOD I'M A MGS FAN! It makes me appreciate the game the way no newcomer could ever dream. I cannot believe how something can be so awesome and so stupid at the same time. Looking at it critically, there is so much wrong with the cutscenes: the length, the pacing, the groan-worthy melodrama, the 4th wall jokes - sooo bad. Looking at is as an MGS fan: ZOMG! Did you see that...?! Did he just...? F'in SWEEET!
While the cutscenes are stupid awesome, the gameplay is just awesome. The graphics, the sound, the controls, the steath, the action, the environments, the variety, the rumble, Mind blowing every single gameplay element.
Playing the game on Big Boss Hard has been an excellent decision for me. It has been challenging but never too frustrating
beginning of Act 5
Vamp
Otocon was useless in the codec lol
first boss - laughing octopus - I did *not* collect her statue. I didn't know that there would be a statue in the area and you *had* to pick it up before knocking out the human form.
All in all I am so glad that the game is selling well. KojiPro deserves the success and I hope it continues to do well. The Metal Gear 4 engine is phenominal an I want to see more games use it. Even if it's MGS4 SubSandwich (cred to Wombat from CAG) with 1000 VR missions and additonal scenarios.
Gamer @ Heart said:
Just thought I'd engage in discussion on the topic. I know he was calling you out saying you hadn't seen the ending, I just thought it was an interesting topic that no one here had discussed yet.
And for those of you who haven't downloaded it, PLEASE check out my theme and leave me some comments or feedback.
http://www.allps3themes.com/2008/06/24/mgs4-guns-of-the-patriots/
I'll be releasing a revision sometime next week (hopefully) with sounds and more wallpapers.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
I hope kojima goes back to Big Boss pre Outer Heaven.
Anyway, im halfway done watching the documentary from the limited edition on youtube. I was so happy when i found it. I was hoping for a more personal look at the creaters and their decisions and opinions on stuff, but whats here isnt that bad.
Anyway, im halfway done watching the documentary from the limited edition on youtube. I was so happy when i found it. I was hoping for a more personal look at the creaters and their decisions and opinions on stuff, but whats here isnt that bad.
le.phat said:
I already knew my opinion wasn't going to be very popular. I'll try to explain it better with an example.
When MGS4 says that the DARPA Chief was a Patriot, a person who merely played MGS2 once or twice when it came out just accepts that plot twist, because he probably doesn't find anything wrong with it. On the other hand, someone who has played MGS2 over and over again will probably remember from MGS2 that president Johnson said that REX was created by the DARPA Chief and ArmsTech against the Patriots' will; and thus, he will question how Anderson could possibly be a Patriot.
The sad thing is that this is just one example; the same thing happens with many of the other twists from MGS4.
Now, before someone jumps on me, let me clarify: I'm not saying that the first kind of person (the one that simply enjoyed the games) is less of a fan than the other one; I'm saying that the second kind of person was probably more enthusiastic about the series, and because of that enthusiasm, he probably has more knowledge about the series' storyline. And it's because of that knowledge that he sees why certain things about MGS4's storyline are wrong, while they will remain oblivious to the other guy.
So, yeah. Just had to clarify that. Carry on with the "elitist" comments.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Chinner said:
I've been playing since the beginning of the series and I love it. People saying stuff like that are just nuts.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Awesome post Grantz.
â Narayan
Member
Ah.... Ah jeez.SMZC said:
Orlics said:
Big boss calls Snake brother because he's aged nearly as much as he has, he's made of the same genetic material; like an identical brother... and their acheivements as men and soldiers put them on equal ground; simply of different eras. He recognizes him as different but equal to him, but also part of him... so he starts off by calling him Son... but he corrects himself upon realization of the current stature of Snake.
Anyway, my favourite part of the story... and it's a great one, because all facets of the story has been wrapped up quite well (some inconsistencies abound, but sure you can look past it), is
Liquid Ocelot. The son of The Boss, he's actually the only one that emulated the Bosses achievements. Took the shame of defeat upon himself; made himself look like the bad guy, all for the grand plan of freeing man kind from the Patriots. He did everything in his power to leave the world the way he found it. He took upon the burden of been the bad guy, and completed his mission in the same way as The Boss by accepting death from Snake to keep the final word. A great character through and through, but one of the best anti-heroes in a long time IMO.
dermannmitdemcolt
Member
Gamer @ Heart said:
Indeed, though I disagree with most of his points. Take note SMZC...
SMZC said:
Perhaps it's because....
By the time DARPA and ArmsTech create Rex, the Patriots is already an AI system, and the amount of control that SIGINT (Donald Anderson) had was minimal. It's quite possible that he was ALSO out to find a way to destory JD? Perhaps that's why he was killed by FoxDIE? Maybe this is all information we don't know because it's never been revealed?
No. Please no.Gamer @ Heart said:
Let him move on from Metal Gear. Just...let one of his underlings do Metal Gear with his supervision and let Kojima do something new.
The idea that KOJIMA SPIT ON THE SERIES AND NEEDS TO REALLY REALLY WRAP UP THINGS FROM MGS2!!!! is the mentality that is going to result in MGS5 being a sixty year project by Kojima, which will come out and be a mindfuck, and then he'll need MGS6 to react to the fans' whining, blah blah blah. The man is Gulliver tied down by Liliputian chains at this point.
If Kojima needs to spit on anyone, it is the hardcore nutjob fans of this series, who I consider distinct from just the hardcore fans.
tha_con said:Perhaps it's because....By the time DARPA and ArmsTech create Rex, the Patriots is already an AI system, and the amount of control that SIGINT (Donald Anderson) had was minimal. It's quite possible that he was ALSO out to find a way to destory JD? Perhaps that's why he was killed by FoxDIE? Maybe this is all information we don't know because it's never been revealed?
We don't know how much influence Anderson had, but EVA made it clear that the anti-Patriots organization wanted to eliminate the main Patriots, and that's why (according to MGS4) Ocelot and Gray Fox had Anderson and Para-medic killed, respectively. So, Anderson must've been important.
Oh, and the original FOXDIE didn't target Anderson. Houseman says so at the end of MGS1.
Oh, and the original FOXDIE didn't target Anderson. Houseman says so at the end of MGS1.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Just some plot ideas I've been thinking about and was wondering if I could get some thoughts on it.
I'm planning on doing my own review for my site later, but I just wanted to get these plot points answered, there not huge just stuff I've been thinking about.
Don't highlight unless you beat the game.
1.
2.
3.
4.
There a bit minor, but just stuff I've been thinking off.
One thing I was thinking too
I think one of the best things Kojima did was not mentioning countries in the battlezones. It saved him for having to create a back story, normally I hate it, but it gives a nice realism to the concept of a war economy, one just fought for the sake of war. The anonymous nature seemed right. I do think giving
.
I'm planning on doing my own review for my site later, but I just wanted to get these plot points answered, there not huge just stuff I've been thinking about.
Don't highlight unless you beat the game.
1.
So Zero forms the Patriots, but my one question about that is when did Zero become an American citizen or stop caring about being British? It just seem bizarre that he wants to run America and such and even run American military ops.
Do the pilots we see in the heli at the cemetery pilot the nomad?I guess you could say its on auto-pilot, but then why have the them in the first place. Weird they never pop up again
How is the nomad funded or equipped? I assume its Otacon stealing funds and such from places (but who??), as this was always the implied source of Philanthropies funding
Are the Patriots in furtherance of the war economy creating the conflicts or simply expanding them by giving tools and tech that never would have been used otherwise? For me at least based on what Drebin says at the end, it seems countries are just using the tools for conflicts that would exist otherwise (and prehaps only have been low level. In a way the Patriots are using human nature and war to expand its control without even causing it
There a bit minor, but just stuff I've been thinking off.
One thing I was thinking too
I think one of the best things Kojima did was not mentioning countries in the battlezones. It saved him for having to create a back story, normally I hate it, but it gives a nice realism to the concept of a war economy, one just fought for the sake of war. The anonymous nature seemed right. I do think giving
Drebin his background was fine as it connected it to the real world and was logical along with the Beasts location specific origin
The more I play and fiddle around with MSG4, the more I appreciate the value of the disk. The gameplay, features, and production value are all second to none.
Starting another go-through and skipping the cut scenes is so liberating! Unfettered by all the cheezy Japanese storytelling conventions this game takes flight! The pacing is now more akin to a James Bond movie. I'm not even going for No Alerts or No Kills yet, I'm just enjoying the levels in free-form fashion.
The online is very good once you accept that this game isn't in competition with COD4. Here's my favorite anecdote thus far; the game is Team Death Match. Two other guys and I are moving in a pack looking for a victim. We get into a firefight with two enemies and the three of us have very little health left. There are two minutes on the clock and our side is losing. We don't have mikes on but I decide to hide under the box. My two teammates circle around for ten seconds and then they two get into a box. They move around a bit as if trying to create the perfectly naturally occurring box scene.
We wait. Our side is of course not losing tickets at the same rate because half the team (us) is incognito. We wait a full minute. The score gets closer. Suddenly a trio of enemies comes into view and runs through without pause. The three of us wait until they are behind us and then as one pop out of our boxes. We gun them down before they know what hit them! A few seconds later there are another couple kills somewhere else on the map and we win!
QUESTION: Is it possible to get the iPod tunes from the game onto your... iPod?
Starting another go-through and skipping the cut scenes is so liberating! Unfettered by all the cheezy Japanese storytelling conventions this game takes flight! The pacing is now more akin to a James Bond movie. I'm not even going for No Alerts or No Kills yet, I'm just enjoying the levels in free-form fashion.
The online is very good once you accept that this game isn't in competition with COD4. Here's my favorite anecdote thus far; the game is Team Death Match. Two other guys and I are moving in a pack looking for a victim. We get into a firefight with two enemies and the three of us have very little health left. There are two minutes on the clock and our side is losing. We don't have mikes on but I decide to hide under the box. My two teammates circle around for ten seconds and then they two get into a box. They move around a bit as if trying to create the perfectly naturally occurring box scene.
We wait. Our side is of course not losing tickets at the same rate because half the team (us) is incognito. We wait a full minute. The score gets closer. Suddenly a trio of enemies comes into view and runs through without pause. The three of us wait until they are behind us and then as one pop out of our boxes. We gun them down before they know what hit them! A few seconds later there are another couple kills somewhere else on the map and we win!
QUESTION: Is it possible to get the iPod tunes from the game onto your... iPod?
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Thats exactly it. The AI's
saw that to further expand its reach, war was the fastest and most profficiant way into introducing the nanos. With the armies and governments under their control through the war economy, the general populace would eventually follow suit.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Finished it!! So many great moments in the Act 5, but the Chase in Act 3 / whole of the Act 4 is still mu favorite part of the game, and definitely one of the most memorable/enjoyable times I got from gaming altogether. Still though, I think Act 1 and 2 will be the most replayable as they give you the most options as to how to play them. But I'm sure the secrets and stuff I missed will keep everything pretty fresh on second playthough, just as it always does in MGS games.
Other favorite moments:
- Octopus battle was probably the most imaginative boss battle in the whole series, and that's saying something (or at least tied with The End battle, although this one is completely different concept)
-
in Act two right after the Octopus battle.
- The scene in Act 2 where you have to
. Then the closing part of that scene (amazing looking environment, even if small) and my realization there that I can kill Gekkos even while I'm on foot, by using Javelin.
- Not exactly a favorite moment, but the
at the end was much better overall than I thought it would be when it started. Drebin was actually a nice touch there with his
. It ended up being a fairly nice feel good scene, and counter-balanced the
... Definitely liked Otacon's comment to Drebin about alcohol and nano-machines, always love when MGS self-pokes a joke.
- Mantis battle, well of course. The sad part in it was when
. Only hours after I finished the game I realized this was probably because
. That aside, the
. What I didn't get about this encouter is what exactly happened at the end? Why
- Best button-mashing sequence gaming has ever seen. I have *never* felt such need to persist through mashing the damn button as in that one scene in this game. Kudos for pulling off something so simple but so powerful.
- Even though I didn't like the much of
speech at the end (could have easily been several times shorter and more to the point probably). I *really* loved the way it ended, and his last words, and luckily that's what I'll remember the most about that scene as it easily overshadows the babbling about
. The song that comes right after it is one of my favorite songs as well (
even though it's a different rendition here, it still has the same potency)
Many more that I can't think offhand. There were some rough/cringy spots as well, but I think less so than in any MGS game bar MGS1, and the good thing is that pretty much all those spots are in cutscenes, so you can skip them anyways. Important thing is that so much amazing stuff happens in general that I felt these rough spots are like a drop in the ocean.
Story is tied together and brought to a satisfying conclusion I thought, as much as a wild storyline like that possibly could. Perhaps too conveniently even, interconnections are sometimes tenuous, but it's a conclusion that answers everything - it's pretty clear Kojima wants to move on to working on something else.
Took me 28 hours to finish it, Hard difficulty.
Other favorite moments:
- Octopus battle was probably the most imaginative boss battle in the whole series, and that's saying something (or at least tied with The End battle, although this one is completely different concept)
-
Following Naomi's tracks
- The scene in Act 2 where you have to
stand on Drebin's tank and defend against crazed soldiers and Gekkos
- Not exactly a favorite moment, but the
wedding scene
magic tricks
slight horror of what Snake was doing at the time
- Mantis battle, well of course. The sad part in it was when
Psycho Mantis couldn't find any save file he would recognize
I don't own any other Konami PS3 games, which just feels weird and sad to be honest, but there's really nothing else worth owning
controller telekinesis was even better this time around due to controller of course being wireless
did he just died/disappeared like that?
- Best button-mashing sequence gaming has ever seen. I have *never* felt such need to persist through mashing the damn button as in that one scene in this game. Kudos for pulling off something so simple but so powerful.
- Even though I didn't like the much of
Big Bosses
zero becoming one becoming a hundred, etc
"Here's to You", also used to a great effect in Life Aquatic,
Many more that I can't think offhand. There were some rough/cringy spots as well, but I think less so than in any MGS game bar MGS1, and the good thing is that pretty much all those spots are in cutscenes, so you can skip them anyways. Important thing is that so much amazing stuff happens in general that I felt these rough spots are like a drop in the ocean.
Story is tied together and brought to a satisfying conclusion I thought, as much as a wild storyline like that possibly could. Perhaps too conveniently even, interconnections are sometimes tenuous, but it's a conclusion that answers everything - it's pretty clear Kojima wants to move on to working on something else.
Took me 28 hours to finish it, Hard difficulty.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
dp.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Gamer @ Heart said:
Interesting.
In war people often agree to things that in other situations they never would. I though the idea of all the conflicts being created by the Pats seemed a bit far fetched even for Kojima, then again why do all the extra leg work when humans will do it for you.
I was actually screaming at
Sanke, "Come on!", You can do it!
Zaptruder said:
yeah, for me it's kind of hard to get past
how much of a ruthless killer he is in previous games to really consider him remotely a hero. the turn of his character seems very last minute to me.
i think my favorite part of the final scene was when Big Boss realized he was wrong the whole time and told Snake "if you had been in my position back then, perhaps you wouldn't have made the same mistakes that i did", although overall i think bringing him back was sort of stupid.
i think my favorite part of the final scene was when Big Boss realized he was wrong the whole time and told Snake "if you had been in my position back then, perhaps you wouldn't have made the same mistakes that i did", although overall i think bringing him back was sort of stupid.
Beat the game. I think my gf wants to breakup with me b/c I dumped about 20 hours into the game in the last two days.
I'm pretty meh about the whole experience. Truth be told, after an arduous marathon like GTA4 the month before, I spent the 4th and 5th acts just rushing through trying to get to the end. I got a Tortoise award mostly b/c of the first two acts where I turtled my way through each stage scanning everything for items. But the action isn't all that compelling until the 4th or 5th acts, and the game was becoming a chore for me in the 3rd act.
The story is the typical cliched espionage shlock. It's a thorough story for a video game, and Drebin does a nice job filling us in with unnecessarily long codec storytimes. The character development is paced very well from start to finish, assuming you get through stages quickly enough to view a complete-enough chunk of the story during your session. But seriously, how long is the ending? Hell, most of Act4 and 5 seemed to be cutscenes. I don't think I spent more than 5 minutes in any given section, yet the shortest cutscene might have been 5 minutes during that time. Whatever, I appreciate the extra steps taken to fill-in a gamer like me who's been out of the loop since MGS2. I just wish they'd all speak a bit faster.
The music was great throughout. The only obnoxious piece in the game is the menu music. I know some people love it, but it is loud as all hell and ranks up there with RubADub and CGC as some of the scariest menu music on the system. Otherwise, I never once felt like turning the music down. Music composition up there with Uncharted in quality, but with more variety IMO. Every scene had good mood music.
The graphics are all over the place. I understand what people were talking about visuals in Act5 now. It definitely looked best, especially the final fight. The framerate, OTOH, was all over the place. I'm running it on SDTV and it was still framey in a lot of cutscenes. Not one problem in gameplay, but the cutscenes were spotty. I already commented on the rest of the visuals in the thread about the best-looking PS3 game. I still hand the title to UDF, but MGS4 is a beautiful game. I think Act1 had some of the best in-game visuals.
Controls are typical tank-ish MGS controls. I give the game credit for avoiding bad camera angles very well, but it often results in Snake being hard to control. It's leagues better than MGS2, but that's not saying much. Still a way more pleasant camera than GTA4, for instance.
Overall an enjoyable game. Not gonna place it among my favorite PS3 games yet, but it was something I had to experience this gen. I'm not a big MGS fan by any means, and find them more enjoyable to watch than play. But that said, this game did a good enough job of robbing me of close to 30 hours of my life. Once you get through Act1, the rest of the game goes by faster. I'm gonna try unlocking some more stuff and maybe get 100% completion on this game, but after this week, I'll probably put this one on the shelf and get back to beating Folklore.
Oh yeah, what do I have to do to get 100% on the MGS Database? I only fired it up yesterday, but haven't read any of it yet. PEACE.
I'm pretty meh about the whole experience. Truth be told, after an arduous marathon like GTA4 the month before, I spent the 4th and 5th acts just rushing through trying to get to the end. I got a Tortoise award mostly b/c of the first two acts where I turtled my way through each stage scanning everything for items. But the action isn't all that compelling until the 4th or 5th acts, and the game was becoming a chore for me in the 3rd act.
The story is the typical cliched espionage shlock. It's a thorough story for a video game, and Drebin does a nice job filling us in with unnecessarily long codec storytimes. The character development is paced very well from start to finish, assuming you get through stages quickly enough to view a complete-enough chunk of the story during your session. But seriously, how long is the ending? Hell, most of Act4 and 5 seemed to be cutscenes. I don't think I spent more than 5 minutes in any given section, yet the shortest cutscene might have been 5 minutes during that time. Whatever, I appreciate the extra steps taken to fill-in a gamer like me who's been out of the loop since MGS2. I just wish they'd all speak a bit faster.
The music was great throughout. The only obnoxious piece in the game is the menu music. I know some people love it, but it is loud as all hell and ranks up there with RubADub and CGC as some of the scariest menu music on the system. Otherwise, I never once felt like turning the music down. Music composition up there with Uncharted in quality, but with more variety IMO. Every scene had good mood music.
The graphics are all over the place. I understand what people were talking about visuals in Act5 now. It definitely looked best, especially the final fight. The framerate, OTOH, was all over the place. I'm running it on SDTV and it was still framey in a lot of cutscenes. Not one problem in gameplay, but the cutscenes were spotty. I already commented on the rest of the visuals in the thread about the best-looking PS3 game. I still hand the title to UDF, but MGS4 is a beautiful game. I think Act1 had some of the best in-game visuals.
Controls are typical tank-ish MGS controls. I give the game credit for avoiding bad camera angles very well, but it often results in Snake being hard to control. It's leagues better than MGS2, but that's not saying much. Still a way more pleasant camera than GTA4, for instance.
Overall an enjoyable game. Not gonna place it among my favorite PS3 games yet, but it was something I had to experience this gen. I'm not a big MGS fan by any means, and find them more enjoyable to watch than play. But that said, this game did a good enough job of robbing me of close to 30 hours of my life. Once you get through Act1, the rest of the game goes by faster. I'm gonna try unlocking some more stuff and maybe get 100% completion on this game, but after this week, I'll probably put this one on the shelf and get back to beating Folklore.
Oh yeah, what do I have to do to get 100% on the MGS Database? I only fired it up yesterday, but haven't read any of it yet. PEACE.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Any thoughts on my questions 1-3?
She needs to accept it., but you also need to balance it. My fiancee understood how much I love this series. Heck, she got me a PS3 as a wedding gift so I could play it. I also got her some wonderful jewelery. You have to have an even exchange, since she works during the day (and I have class at night I could play this like crazy on the 5.1 in the day. For that reason if I played it at night I did with headphones (which were quite nice) and limited it to about 5-6 hours a day (it also helped increase my value and not take over my life) and didn't ignore her. She in turn had no problem with me getting the LE, doing the Midnight release. She even made a facebook countdown clock and wrote on our calendar for 6/12 Sneak Out! (MGS 4).
Balance is the key
She needs to accept it.
, but you also need to balance it. My fiancee understood how much I love this series. Heck, she got me a PS3 as a wedding gift so I could play it. I also got her some wonderful jewelery. You have to have an even exchange, since she works during the day (and I have class at night I could play this like crazy on the 5.1 in the day. For that reason if I played it at night I did with headphones (which were quite nice) and limited it to about 5-6 hours a day (it also helped increase my value and not take over my life) and didn't ignore her. She in turn had no problem with me getting the LE, doing the Midnight release. She even made a facebook countdown clock and wrote on our calendar for 6/12 Sneak Out! (MGS 4).Balance is the key
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Oh yeah, I was seriously scared
the game would ask me to "Pull R1" on Snake there at the end, like it did in MGS3 for The Boss, but it didn't. And I'm glad it didn't, despite that we later see he didn't actually go though with it, the players would be left with a bad taste in their mouths feeling they tried to kill Snake against his will
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Probably. I guess this was not deemed important enough to be shown in the game, but clearly Campbel has provided some personnel and equipment.Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Part that and part Campbel's funding and military connections I guess. You can see by that interior shot of his house from codec that he seems to be very rich at that point.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
SRG01 said:Heeeey, I'm a hardcore MGS fan, and I loved MGS3 more than MGS2.
It's funny I'm not sure which I like more. It really took me a while to get used to no Soliton (sonar and such being battery powered) and the whole open field setup.
I really think MGS4 nailed a balance or at least the controls to enjoy it more than 3, but thats natural since you would hope each video game sequel improves and refines the game before, control wise at least.
I never minded MGS2 that much, actually the only thing that really bugged me was
Otacon and his step mom, that just weirded me out.
I didn't get a lot of the story at first, but after a very helpful ending analysis appeared (on junkerhq.org) I began to appreciate it a lot more.
Still can anyone explain the codec (I couldn't find it) where Otacon asks Snake how he learned CQC?
Oh anyone get the Snake your the shit codec?
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Marconelly said:
I agree, just something I was thinking about, I'm surprised its not in the DB, maybe I need to look a little more.
I would assume that
Campbell wasn't funding them at first. It would be interesting to know what happened in between 2 and 4 even more.
I really think the idea of DLC would be a great idea for MGS allowing that backstory to be explored and Kojima to groom a successor. Heck, it would allow them to develop the engine more and make additional revenue at the same time.
Sorry this is a bit of an off topic question, but I don't feel like bumping older threads just for this..
Where can I find the beginning audio during the Konami logo in MGS1? Not sure if I'm clear enough, but it's only a couple of notes playing. If anyone would be kind enough to send me a link for that I would be very grateful. Thanks.
Where can I find the beginning audio during the Konami logo in MGS1? Not sure if I'm clear enough, but it's only a couple of notes playing. If anyone would be kind enough to send me a link for that I would be very grateful. Thanks.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Danielsan said:
I agree, it's both extremely cinematic and extremely fun gameplay.
The last section, which is really minimal effort to beat is just so amazing, because it makes MGS4 even more like a movie, in terms of fluidity as opposed to crazy combos that remind you its a game
The pacing and style is very reminiscence of a classic Chambara or Shaw Brothers/Golden Harvest (or any classic kung fu movie).
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