Support NeoGAF

[dermannmitdemcolt]

In the trailers everything we saw was in a warzone,

Spoiler

but in the actual game there were only two acts that were like that

. Now there were a load of cutscenes in this game and it annoyed me, but I wouldnt have minded it as much if there was more gameplay though.

Well, I was very thankful for the change in pace. If the whole game would've been like the first two chapters...way too repetive. Imo Act 3 + 4 are fine as they are. But I agree that that Act 5 needed more Gameplay.

 

[disappeared]

Well, I was very thankful for the change in pace. If the whole game would've been like the first two chapters...way too repetive. Imo Act 3 + 4 are fine as they are. But I agree that that Act 5 needed more Gameplay.

Act 5 was basically an interactive take on a climactic sequence of cutscenes that would have otherwise probably stretched too long. The infiltration at the beginning as well as the Mantis battle were spliced in rather nicely I think.

 

[Liabe Brave]

Theory about the game's twist being a last-minute change.

I don't believe this. First, plot-changing twists are a staple of the series. Second, it sets up even more parallels to previous games, which is a running trope in MGS4. Finally, without the twist--as you yourself pointed out--the game isn't about anything. It's just tying up loose plot ends. Do you really think Hideo Kojima was going to make a game without a theme or a meaning, and only belatedly changed his mind? That seems way more far-fetched to me than any of the convolutions MGS4 knots itself in.

Spoiler

The twist is necessary to drive home the theme of this entry, which is redemption. Major and minor, acts of expiation and self-sacrifice litter the landscape: Naomi redeems herself, Big Mama does, Akiba does, Campbell does, Raiden does. . . . And yes, Kojima nearly demolishes the entire backstory just so he can have Big Boss and Ocelot redeem themselves too (at least partially).

I believe the setting for the "debriefing" is making a point about all this martyrdom. The Boss' idealism of a unified world inspired many, but none of them saw that not uniformity but uniform liberty was the goal. In the end, their sacrifices gave up the sterilized world free from conflict they once fought for, in favor of actual freedom.

 

[Darkpen]

oh snap, new online and mgo stuff? will check out now D:

 

[atomico]

Spoiler

And a new Snatcher series set in the MGS world. The game could have nothing to do with MGS but my guess is they'll have it set in the same world anyway.

Spoiler

Snake's trench coat in act 3 looks like Gillian Seed's, too. It'd be cool if they added his FaceCamo as an extra

:lol

 

[dermannmitdemcolt]

Act 5 was basically an interactive take on a climactic sequence of cutscenes that would have otherwise probably stretched too long. The infiltration at the beginning as well as the Mantis battle were spliced in rather nicely I think.

True. But it would've been cool to explore

Spoiler

the interior of haven more in depth

 

[disappeared]

Maybe this has been touched on in the past 450 pages, but I don't feel like looking right now...

Has anyone else been craving a MGS remake with the MGS4 tech? (let's pretend for a sec that TS doesn't exist...) I mean, seriously, they must have a good 40-50% of

Spoiler

Shadow Moses already modeled from Act 4.

Just throw in the codec dialogue from TS, hammer out the cutscenes, and they're done!


<---- Typical fan, always wanting more.

 

[Blader]

^I'd much rather have PS3 remakes of the MSX Metal Gears.

 

[Rainy Dog]

Agreed. The first two acts of the game were perfect. The gameplay was excellent and there were just the right amount of cutscenes. After act 2 it all goes wrong though. There are far too many cutscenes and the standard of gameplay drops significantly. Act 3 was unbelievably boring. I like a bit of variety, but its got to be good and act 3 was just a tedious bit to play through. Act 4 wasnt as good as the first two acts, but overall I thought it was pretty good. Act 5 is basically an interactive cutscene. In the trailers everything we saw was in a warzone,

Spoiler

but in the actual game there were only two acts that were like that

. Now there were a load of cutscenes in this game and it annoyed me, but I wouldnt have minded it as much if there was more gameplay though.

Whilst I agree that there wasn't enough gameplay, I still loved Act 3.

Spoiler

Contained the single most draw dropping cutscene/setpiece I'll probably ever see and, whilst you're not interacting, can't see how anyone could call it boring.

As for the gameplay, massively enjoyed the first part, just needed expanding upon. Vastly though, imo. Act 4 would've been perfect and my personal favourite section of the game if

Spoiler

the robot drones would've been replaced by or mixed with PMC's.

Could've been the ultimate in stealth gameplay and epitomised everything MGS has strived to achieve. And Act 5, again, just needed a vast expansion of the gameplay that was already present. Think the pacing in terms of gameplay would've benefited greatly if the first couple of Act's were separated somehow. Realise the story would have to be rejigged somewhat to accommodate, but would've been worth it imo.

Still my fav game of this generation so far though, despite not quite being (in my imo anyway) the game it could've been.

 

[klee123]

Maybe this has been touched on in the past 450 pages, but I don't feel like looking right now...

Has anyone else been craving a MGS remake with the MGS4 tech? (let's pretend for a sec that TS doesn't exist...) I mean, seriously, they must have a good 40-50% of

Spoiler

Shadow Moses already modeled from Act 4.

Just throw in the codec dialogue from TS, hammer out the cutscenes, and they're done!


<---- Typical fan, always wanting more.

I'd actually prefer it if they remade MGS3 using MGS4 tech, due to the complexity of the enviroments in comparison to MGS1.

 

[Dot50Cal]

Why is it that every player I've come across in MGO are total douchebags? I swear, it never fails that all the good players switch to the same team, leaving level one players to duke it out against them. I just had a game where during the pre-play match, my only teammate switched to the opposing team, making it 4 on 1 against me. So tell me gaf, why are all MGO players assholes?

 

[EMBee99]

I love the story, but the last half felt like Kojima ripped the controller out of my hand and said, "I don't trust you enough to get all this. Let me do it."

Anyone who said this was the best example of gaming and storytelling working together is wrong.

 

[Darkpen]

^I'd much rather have PS3 remakes of the MSX Metal Gears.

really, I'm just waiting for a bionic commando-esque remake, using the same engine, but with MG:GB controls, and 1080p goodness (or in my case, 720p).

 

[TTP]

I love the story, but the last half felt like Kojima ripped the controller out of my hand and said, "I don't trust you enough to get all this. Let me do it."

Anyone who said this was the best example of gaming and storytelling working together is wrong.

What exactly does he do on your behalf?

 

[Darkpen]

What exactly does he do on your behalf?

yeah, I don't get his post either.

If he was referring to the fight scenes between Vamp and Raiden, then I'd understand, but there aren't any points where Snake's doing something that you wish you could be doing in his stead.

 

[EMBee99]

What exactly does he do on your behalf?

Instead of letting me play through the cooler set pieces in the back half of the game, he just plays them out in a cut scene. I'm not knocking the game, I just wish there was more of it to play instead of watch.

If he was referring to the fight scenes between Vamp and Raiden, then I'd understand, but there aren't any points where Snake's doing something that you wish you could be doing in his stead.

Spoiler

Snake vs. Liquid, the gunboat scene, the escape from the church, the "Track and Field" inspired ending crawl

Again, a lot of opportunity to let the gamer be more involved in the story as opposed to just spelling everything out in a 40-minute series of cut scenes.

Again, I love LOVE the game, I just wanted more of it.

 

[TTP]

Instead of letting me play through the cooler set pieces in the back half of the game, he just plays them out in a cut scene. I'm not knocking the game, I just wish there was more of it to play instead of watch.

I know what you mean. I just don't recall which they are. Any example?

 

[Steroyd]

How do you get into that walled off part of the power station?

Go to the power station you CAN get to on foot, climb up it hang off a ledge and mopve across the power cord leading to the second power station.

 

[atomico]

Go to the power station you CAN get to on foot, climb up it hang off a ledge and mopve across the power cord leading to the second power station.

anything good in there?

 

[Deleted member 30609]

anything good in there?

Mosin Nagint ammo, a rocket launcher of some kind (if my memory serves me correctly, might be a grenade launcher) and some assorted health stuff. I'd say it's worth it just for the novelty of getting in there.

Also, I think you have to blow up the power station first.

 

[Rainy Dog]

To me, the various Acts and their differences seemed like fan service (in a good way) to the series. Act 2 was the

Spoiler

Snake Eater

tribute, Act 4 was

Spoiler

MGS1

and the beginning of Act 5 felt like a nod to the

Spoiler

opening section of MGS2.

 

[Steroyd]

anything good in there?

Just a weapon that you can buy from the Drebin shop a Grenade launcher of some sort.

 

[Tieno]

Is there a short summary of the backstory somewhere? I just rented the game. I have played MGS2 btw.

 

[Darkpen]

Instead of letting me play through the cooler set pieces in the back half of the game, he just plays them out in a cut scene. I'm not knocking the game, I just wish there was more of it to play instead of watch.

Spoiler

Snake vs. Liquid, the gunboat scene, the escape from the church, the "Track and Field" inspired ending crawl

Again, a lot of opportunity to let the gamer be more involved in the story as opposed to just spelling everything out in a 40-minute series of cut scenes.

Again, I love LOVE the game, I just wanted more of it.

you did get to do the final battle, there was NOTHING at the gunboat scene, you DID get to play the escape from the church, or do you mean that you wanted it to not be on-rails? And the

Spoiler

"track and field inspired ending crawl" WAS played. Hell, that has to be the most emotional (and best) execution of button mashing/QTE ever done in any game. It marries gameplay and cutscene in such a wonderful way. That scene was so powerful; it really really really was the game's obligatory torture sequence. Mashing triangle, and seeing Snake struggle, and seeing all kinds of shit happening on the top screen, and just hearing Otacon's pleading cries made me break out into tears, to be honest. Hearing Otacon, and hearing the Old Snake song, and just, wow.

I can't believe you're making that scene an "example" of where you feel that the control over the scene was taken away from you.

Really now. Your complaints don't hold much water from the angle you're coming from.

 

[klee123]

To be frank I would have preferred if there was an extra act similar to acts 1 and 2 between say acts 4 and 5. Even though acts 3-5 were awesome, I thought the first 2 acts were godly in terms of gameplay.

 

[EMBee99]

you did get to do the final battle, there was NOTHING at the gunboat scene, you DID get to play the escape from the church, or do you mean that you wanted it to not be on-rails? And the

Spoiler

"track and field inspired ending crawl" WAS played. Hell, that has to be the most emotional (and best) execution of button mashing/QTE ever done in any game. It marries gameplay and cutscene in such a wonderful way. That scene was so powerful; it really really really was the game's obligatory torture sequence. Mashing triangle, and seeing Snake struggle, and seeing all kinds of shit happening on the top screen, and just hearing Otacon's pleading cries made me break out into tears, to be honest. Hearing Otacon, and hearing the Old Snake song, and just, wow.

I can't believe you're making that scene an "example" of where you feel that the control over the scene was taken away from you.

Really now. Your complaints don't hold much water from the angle you're coming from.

For a game that lets me approach most of it from the way I want in the first two acts (run and gun or sneaking), a lot of that gets taken away from me at the end of the game.

In the end, I was holding the controller as an observer more than I was as an active participant.

You obviously have more of an emotional connection to the story and series. Any complaint anyone would have is filtered through that and seen as "wrong." That's cool. I just wanted more than what I got.

 

[Rainy Dog]

I loved the characters, cutscenes, set pieces and how the story played out and wrapped up. Feel all that is handled perfectly. The mission briefings made things feel personal in a way that I've never felt such attachment to game characters before. Also loved every last of bit of gameplay. In every act. Just can't deny that I was left wanting more of what was there in Acts 3 and 5 like EMBee99.

Is perhaps nit picking though as everything else exceeded my nigh on impossible expectations.

 

[Darkpen]

For a game that lets me approach most of it from the way I want in the first two acts (run and gun or sneaking), a lot of that gets taken away from me at the end of the game.

In the end, I was holding the controller as an observer more than I was as an active participant.

You obviously have more of an emotional connection to the story and series. Any complaint anyone would have is filtered through that and seen as "wrong." That's cool. I just wanted more than what I got.

That's the argument you should be making, not citing scenes that couldn't have been any more interactive than they were.

 

[Doc Evils]

Is there a short summary of the backstory somewhere? I just rented the game. I have played MGS2 btw.

The MGS database?

 

[Darkpen]

Man, I haven't been to the Red Vs Blue website in a while, but I don't think anyone posted this in the thread:

 

[Lord Error]

Spoiler

Snake vs. Liquid, the gunboat scene, the escape from the church, the "Track and Field" inspired ending crawl

I don't get it, you do actually play

Spoiler

Snake vs. Liquid, the escape from the church, and the ending crawl

. All of those could have been just plain custscenes, but they weren't, and each of them is a throwback to what you had to do in the first MGS.

EMBee99For a game that lets me approach most of it from the way I want in the first two acts (run and gun or sneaking), a lot of that gets taken away from me at the end of the game

That's again not really true. You can chose to run and gun or sneak through acts 3 (first half) and Act 4. In fact, my play though of both has been a combination of total obliteration and outright sneaking.

Maybe even first half of Act 5 (I got through only by sneaking, but I've heard of people gunning though it)

 

[psycho_snake]

Whilst I agree that there wasn't enough gameplay, I still loved Act 3.

Spoiler

Contained the single most draw dropping cutscene/setpiece I'll probably ever see and, whilst you're not interacting, can't see how anyone could call it boring.

As for the gameplay, massively enjoyed the first part, just needed expanding upon. Vastly though, imo. Act 4 would've been perfect and my personal favourite section of the game if

Spoiler

the robot drones would've been replaced by or mixed with PMC's.

Could've been the ultimate in stealth gameplay and epitomised everything MGS has strived to achieve. And Act 5, again, just needed a vast expansion of the gameplay that was already present. Think the pacing in terms of gameplay would've benefited greatly if the first couple of Act's were separated somehow. Realise the story would have to be rejigged somewhat to accommodate, but would've been worth it imo.

Still my fav game of this generation so far though, despite not quite being (in my imo anyway) the game it could've been.

I agree with what you said about act 4.

Spoiler

PMC soldiers would have been much better than those annoying lifeless drones

As for act 3,

Spoiler

cinematics wise, it was brilliant, but I hated the gamesplay. I'd prefer too see another battlefield take place in those environments rather than having to follow some rebel. If they wanted to add some variety, they could have done it so that you have to assist a rebel through the battlefield all the way to the base.

 

[psycho_snake]

That's again not really true. You can chose to run and gun or sneak through acts 3 (first half) and Act 4. In fact, my play though of both has been a combination of total obliteration and outright sneaking.

Maybe even first half of Act 5 (I got through only by sneaking, but I've heard of people gunning though it)

I went all guns blazing in that part, but I reckon it would be much more fun sneaking your way through that bit. It'd definately be a lot more challenging.

 

[Guzim]

Man, I haven't been to the Red Vs Blue website in a while, but I don't think anyone posted this in the thread:

Screw that. I'd rather hang out with Snake and Indy.

 

[Darkpen]

Screw that. I'd rather hang out with Snake and Indy.

seriously D:

But man, what's up with the colorful skin on Raiden's face D: He should be as pale as a ghost

 

[psycho_snake]

Man, I haven't been to the Red Vs Blue website in a while, but I don't think anyone posted this in the thread:

:lol

They should have called MGS4 Metal Gaer Solid 4: No country for old men.

 

[EMBee99]

That's the argument you should be making, not citing scenes that couldn't have been any more interactive than they were.

See, in my imagination, they could have been more interactive. But that's just me.

 

[Tieno]

The MGS database?

That's a lot of reading! But I've found the GT retrospectives. I hope they're enough. (really well done, hats off to GT)

 

[Darkpen]

See, in my imagination, they could have been more interactive. But that's just me.

I think what you're asking for is for the ending second-half of the game to have been reconstructed for it to be more interactive, as opposed to somehow making the second half of the game, as it is, to have more gameplay segments than they have as of the moment.

If that's not true, then I clearly do not share your level of imagination.

Because honestly, I don't see how they could've made it more interactive, aside from maybe, JUST maybe, pressing triangle to launch the man cannon to board the

Spoiler

arsenal gear

.

A lot of people agree that the second half of the game tipped the gameplay/cutscene ratio a bit too much towards cutscenes, including myself, but the scenes that you cite are not scenes that I would prefer in any other way.

 

[Red Blaster]

Ether_Snake's opinions might be unorthodox (at least, on a forum with relatively casual MGS fans like GAF) but he has done his research, so he has a lot of credibility. Don't just blatantly "disregard" his opinions, hear them out for yourselves and decide.

Ether_Snake's absolutely insane. At MGS.org he posted a theory about how Ryan Payton's former association with Xbox Nation means that he never was a "true" fan of the series, thus when he joined Kojima Productions he proceeded in sabotaging MGS4.

 

[EMBee99]

I think what you're asking for is for the ending second-half of the game to have been reconstructed for it to be more interactive, as opposed to somehow making the second half of the game, as it is, to have more gameplay segments than they have as of the moment.

If that's not true, then I clearly do not share your level of imagination.

Because honestly, I don't see how they could've made it more interactive, aside from maybe, JUST maybe, pressing triangle to launch the man cannon to board the

Spoiler

arsenal gear

.

A lot of people agree that the second half of the game tipped the gameplay/cutscene ratio a bit too much towards cutscenes, including myself, but the scenes that you cite are not scenes that I would prefer in any other way.

What I could see is

Spoiler

the viewpoint shifting away from Snake for a spell, maybe Otacon trying to stay safe in the midst of the final battle or as a SOP grunt during the final fight, staying alive in the chaos, or as Akiba saving the lives of everyone in the boat. Why is it, in a worldwide struggle that affects so many folks, am I only playing as one person in this? Granted, Kojima caught a ton of shit for doing that in MGS2....

For everything I saw in that second screen, I wanted to be a part of that as opposed to just blindly hitting one button over and over.

I think Kojima made a choice to tell the story one way and I just didn't agree with it. That's all.

 

[atomico]

I agree with what you said about act 4.

Spoiler

PMC soldiers would have been much better than those annoying lifeless drones

Spoiler

As much as I hated those drones (didn't like their design. they look like some low-lvl mobs from an SMT game or something), I thought not having any PMC soldiers actually added to the whole nostalgic experience of revisiting MGS1 and Shadow Moses.

The facility is meant to feel *dead*. Only thing left are ghosts and memories

In a way, the fate of shadow moses kinda reflects Snake's, too. Both are way past their prime, falling apart, dying (island is sinking, according to the briefing), etc.

yeah, the game had depressed the crap out of me by that point :lol

 

[Deleted member 30609]

What I could see is

Spoiler

the viewpoint shifting away from Snake for a spell, maybe Otacon trying to stay safe in the midst of the final battle or as a SOP grunt during the final fight, staying alive in the chaos, or as Akiba saving the lives of everyone in the boat. Why is it, in a worldwide struggle that affects so many folks, am I only playing as one person in this? Granted, Kojima caught a ton of shit for doing that in MGS2....

For everything I saw in that second screen, I wanted to be a part of that as opposed to just blindly hitting one button over and over.

I think Kojima made a choice to tell the story one way and I just didn't agree with it. That's all.

I think the point of MGS4s story and central themes went way over your head.

EDIT: That came out harsher when reading over it then I actually intended it to be.

 

[Darkpen]

What I could see is

Spoiler

the viewpoint shifting away from Snake for a spell, maybe Otacon trying to stay safe in the midst of the final battle or as a SOP grunt during the final fight, staying alive in the chaos, or as Akiba saving the lives of everyone in the boat. Why is it, in a worldwide struggle that affects so many folks, am I only playing as one person in this? Granted, Kojima caught a ton of shit for doing that in MGS2....

For everything I saw in that second screen, I wanted to be a part of that as opposed to just blindly hitting one button over and over.

I think Kojima made a choice to tell the story one way and I just didn't agree with it. That's all.

I'm reminded about how the direction for the recent Rambo film was to show the film from Rambo's perspective, everything from camera behavior, to the content on-screen, and how it all weaved together.

With the way that Kojima was directing MGS4, this game was first and foremost about this being Snake's final mission, and that he was dying; everything that lead up to the ending of MGS4 was Snake's finale.

I think that the creative direction you're coming from is more of a "Black Hawk Down" point of view, with everyone being interwoven into a larger scheme of things. If the game did what you're suggesting, I think there would be a large number of people complaining about how taking away from Snake's point of view would detract from the importance of what the game's about.

Which is the reason why that I do not agree with your point of view, or rather, I don't comprehend it. It doesn't mesh well. The ideas are nice, but I don't see it working.

I think the point of MGS4s story and central themes went way over your head.

EDIT: That came out harsher when reading over it then I actually intended it to be.

Actually, I agree. I don't think he got as much out of it as some of us did. Personally, its hard to go back to that feeling I had when I first played it, but I have to admit that I had some frustration over how incredibly long the cutscenes got, and ultimately, I felt a little disappointed.

Not getting to

Spoiler

pull the trigger was a disappointment, but I guess that surprise was far too expected, and wouldn't have had the same impact as it did in MGS3

.

 

[Nino]

That's a lot of reading! But I've found the GT retrospectives. I hope they're enough. (really well done, hats off to GT)

I watched those, read the plot summaries on Wikipedia and read the entries in the DB I wanted to know more about before I started MGS4 and I immensely enjoined the story. Have fun. Keep watching after the credits. And after that. And after that.

 

[Bluth]

I have enjoyed the game very much, but one question has been bothering me. When Snake and Naomi hold the monkey's hand, there is a small flashback of a black-and-white picture and Drebin laughs. Is this a reference to a previous game or something that I missed?

 

[Tieno]

I watched those, read the plot summaries on Wikipedia and read the entries in the DB I wanted to know more about before I started MGS4 and I immensely enjoined the story. Have fun. Keep watching after the credits. And after that. And after that.

I want to start the game though But I'll probably do that a bit.
But I just finished the GT retrospectives! Huge respect for them, what an epic undertaking and great use of video. I'm still confused about certain stuff, but the image is becoming clearer and clearer. I'm getting there.

 

[dalyr95]

Monkey's name is "little grey" and Drebin has this picture of a UFO hoax inside his APC:

 

[Darkpen]

Monkey's name is "little grey" and Drebin has this picture of a UFO hoax inside his APC:

yeah, I remember when someone first posted about that way back when the trailer that showed that scene came out.

 

[Catalix]

Monkey's name is "little grey" and Drebin has this picture of a UFO hoax inside his APC:

His aluminum diapers are a nod too. The little grey alien in the photo was referred to as the "Aluminum-Covered Man"

Drebin is apparently a conspiracy nut. The other pictures inside of his vehicle involve famous photos of urban legends, including Big Foot . The members of B&B Corps are essentially equated to such things.