Definitely not. MGS4 just does a great job of taking every loose end in the series and tying it up into one game. Shane and Shawn on 1upyours put it pretty well, it's like that X-Men comic that was written as if every other X-Men comic by every writer had been leading up to this one moment, and pulled it off pretty well. But there's no way it was originally planned to be like that.Iaido Sword said:
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Metal Gear Solid 4 |OT| No Place to Hide, No Time for a Legend to FoxDie
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
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LowParry
Member
I've beat the game plenty of times, etc. Will do it all over again when trophies are in place. But! I'm sure this have been talked before, but I'm gonna ask anyway.
In MGS2, we obviously see Ocelot with his graphed arm of Liquids. We have our scenes where we hear Liquid speaking, etc etc etc. So at that point, is it fact that Liquid is taking over Ocelots body? Clearly it couldn't be anything of the resulted drug/hypnotise talk we get at the end of the game right?
Iaido Sword
Banned
I disagree. Maybe the whole story wasn't written out at MGS, but at MGS2, there was no way to tie MGS2 and MGS3 together without having the whole thing laid out for MGS4.
Iaido Sword
Banned
Yeah, not saying you're lying, just considering the fact that they have so many different ones.TTP said:
Like how I just happen to see this one time. Pictures not mine.
Steiner_Zi
Member
Well, Kojima himself said that he hadn't planned the whole story from the beginning but he managed to tie everything up in MGS4.Iaido Sword said:
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=143802
For a story spanning 20 real-life years and each time with no knowledge if a sequel would be made, it would be impossible.
I know I'm LTTP, but DAMN I cant get enough of this song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCgeHDFIFLY
Dont read the comments as there are spoilers there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCgeHDFIFLY
Dont read the comments as there are spoilers there.
NovemberMike
Member
SRG01 said:
Yeah, it only works with the pistol that doesn't need an external silencer (the deadly one, not the tranq).
EDIT: Actually, I think it may work with any pistol, and the puppets. He pulls it out when you run though.
Iaido Sword
Banned
He's being humble.Steiner_Zi said:
But why would he praise George Lucas. >_>;;
ToyMachine228
Member
Did I just hear Colonel Campbell's voice in Diablo 2? That journal in Act 2? Is that the Colonel?
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
TTP said:
What date did you see the cake, TTP? Could be Sunny's birthday.
I wonder if the Sunny Cam (or any other part of the game) really does have any date specific easter eggs, like Animal Crossing. Wouldn't surprise me.
MiamiWesker
Member
Iaido Sword said:
Cause he gave us the greatest sci-fi story/universe ever...
Iaido Sword
Banned
Yeah, but the depth of the Star Wars' story is pretty shallow. Expansive, but shallow.MiamiWesker said:
Bookwriters that written trilogies continuing the original Star Wars stories were much better and had a lot more depth.
MiamiWesker
Member
Iaido Sword said:
Its a modern myth, it doesn't really have much to it in terms of the story but the themes it touches on are timeless and very vast in range. Also I think the prequels for one had a very interesting story, a rather complex one with how the Emperor came to power, far more too it than the OT (not better movies just more complicated story). Regardless Kojima was talking about how George came up with a backstory to make the OT. Kojima did not think that far ahead.
Steiner_Zi
Member
Iaido Sword said:
Snake, Mission Briefing Act 5: "Liquid's own Death Star."
This is my favorite song in MGS4, also used in portable ops.
contains spoilers for portable ops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXkgn3QUA2w&feature=related
contains spoilers for portable ops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXkgn3QUA2w&feature=related
blindrocket
Member
I love it too. <3chubigans said:
Catalix said:
July the 5th. It's her birthday. I did some tests with the system clock.
I set it to July 4th 23:59:00, checked the PIP cam and there was no cake. But as soon as time reached July 5th 00:00:01 the cake appeared! (Had to unpause and pause again for the cake to show up).
I just realized that Sunny's activity is time related as well. At night, Nomad lights are off and you don't see her. During day time, lights are on and you see her busy doing her stuff.
Anyway, yes, Sunny was born on July the 5th.
July 4th @ 23:59:45
July 5th @ 00:00:27
More pics of the cake...
And...
:lol Sunny's hiding in a cardbox :lol never noticed this before. She walks away after a while.
Didn't unlock any Trophy for discovering this :/
Iaido Sword
Banned
According to the database? Was there anything about it?TTP said:
That's insane Kojima. Putting in something special for one day. O_O;;
Steiner_Zi
Member
*Important post*
I think you're wrong.Awntawn said:
While it is true that Ocelot did not just act but also had the help of psychotherapy, hypnosis and nanomachines in order to behave in line with Liquid's persona, he preserved his inner conciousness. In fact, the official guide states it clearly:
<< Ultimately, the story of Metal Gear Solid 4 is the conclusion of a vast conspiracy through which Ocelot and EVA (with Naomi's help) exact their revenge on Major Zero, and open the doors of redemption for themselves. We should be under no illusions as to the true role of Ocelot from the very start. As Big Boss reveals, "In order to fool the system, Ocelot used nanomachines and psychotherapy to transplant Liquid's personality into his own mind. He used hypnotic suggestion to turn himself into a mental doppelganger of Liquid." Foreseeing every step that Snake would make, every likely outcome, Ocelot allows his apparent adversary to complete the most integral parts of his plot because he understands, fundamentally, that Snake is the tool of The Patriots and therefore above suspicion in their eyes -- whether he knows it or not. [.....]
Ocelot knows that the only way to bring down the Patriots is to infect the central AI, JD, with a virus. However, there are prequisites that must be met for his plan to work: one, that the virus code must be of a sufficiently high standard, and two, that he gave access to a system protected by an unprecendented degree of security.
[.....]
As for how to deliver the virus into the heart of the Patriots' AI system, Ocelot knew that the only way to break through its security was to use a unique key: the genetic code and biometric data of Big Boss.[...]
The rest of the story is a series of deceptions designed to drive Snake ever onwards, and allay the suspicions of the Patriot AI systems. Ocelot, despite the presence of Liquid Snake within his consciousness, has no intention of using the rail gun retrieved from Metal Gear REX. Neither does he truly plan to become leader of the Patriots himself, despite his assertions to the contrary. Ocelot simply wishes for an end to The Patriots' control system, and leads Snake, their trusted yet unknowing tool, to become the agent of their ruin. For greater verisimilitude, at no point does Snake enjoy an easy ride: the sheer felocity of the forces ranged against him (soldiers, the Gekkos, the BB Corps, Vamp) underlines the apparent sincerity of Liquid Ocelot's desire to allay the legendary soldier. And yet Ocelot, significantly, fails to dispatch Snake when given several opportunities to do so, in a manner that clearly surpasses the traditional cliche of villainous arrogance.
Ocelot, then, is not a nefarious figure, a tyrant seeking endless power, but the mastermind behind a plan to break the authoritarian rule web that the Patriots were weaving over the world. From this perspective, Ocelot (even in his guise as the pitiless Liquid Ocelot) is as much a hero as Snake. Even his vicious rout of the forces brought by Meryl to capture him in Eastern Europe bears further examination. At the very moment that he froze military hardware throughout the world with an apparent nonchalant wave of his hand, didn't Ocelot effectively end all ongoing conflicts at once, becoming the main architect of peace and the man to end the war economy? Despite their mutual antagonism from the first time they met, Snake and Ocelot actually worked together to stop The Patriots' rule.
Only once the virus has been deployed does Ocelot reveal hints of his true self. There is an almost cathartic quality to the brutal unarmed combat that ensues between the two before Ocelot's life is extinguished by the FOXDIE that courses through Snake's veins. Ocelot's valediction confirms that he actually played Liquid's role all along: "I am Liquid's doppelganger."
[.....]
Some, like EVA, Ocelot, Naomi and Big Boss (who deliberately breathes the FOXDIE virus exhaled by Snake) find redemption in death, both their own and in that of The Patriots' corrupted ideals. Others, such as Otacon, Meryl and Campbell, find redemption in life through their atonement for past mistakes. As for Snake, he finds himself poised between life and death, trapped between the past and the future, between Snake and David. There is, perhaps, a hint of a future, for the tired soldiers before the end credits roll. With the knowledge that the new FOXDIE virus has supplanted the one before it, Big Boss encourages Snake to start over, to embrace a new (albeit short) life as a fresh aura dawns. >>
The guide also clarifies the confusion on why EVA and Ocelot act as enemies in Act 3:
<< EVA died believing that Liquid Ocelot truly existed, as convinced as any other that her friend had become merely a vessel for Liquid's malign spirit. This was the true extent of the price that Ocelot had to pay in order to succeed: not even EVA could know the true scope of his plan. >>
As to why Ocelot attacked Snake with the ship, wouldn't it be unnatural to command a giant ship, have your enemy right in front of you and just... leave? Ocelot knew that Raiden would come to Snake's rescue and used this to seem to try to kill Snake.
<< Ultimately, the story of Metal Gear Solid 4 is the conclusion of a vast conspiracy through which Ocelot and EVA (with Naomi's help) exact their revenge on Major Zero, and open the doors of redemption for themselves. We should be under no illusions as to the true role of Ocelot from the very start. As Big Boss reveals, "In order to fool the system, Ocelot used nanomachines and psychotherapy to transplant Liquid's personality into his own mind. He used hypnotic suggestion to turn himself into a mental doppelganger of Liquid." Foreseeing every step that Snake would make, every likely outcome, Ocelot allows his apparent adversary to complete the most integral parts of his plot because he understands, fundamentally, that Snake is the tool of The Patriots and therefore above suspicion in their eyes -- whether he knows it or not. [.....]
Ocelot knows that the only way to bring down the Patriots is to infect the central AI, JD, with a virus. However, there are prequisites that must be met for his plan to work: one, that the virus code must be of a sufficiently high standard, and two, that he gave access to a system protected by an unprecendented degree of security.
[.....]
As for how to deliver the virus into the heart of the Patriots' AI system, Ocelot knew that the only way to break through its security was to use a unique key: the genetic code and biometric data of Big Boss.[...]
The rest of the story is a series of deceptions designed to drive Snake ever onwards, and allay the suspicions of the Patriot AI systems. Ocelot, despite the presence of Liquid Snake within his consciousness, has no intention of using the rail gun retrieved from Metal Gear REX. Neither does he truly plan to become leader of the Patriots himself, despite his assertions to the contrary. Ocelot simply wishes for an end to The Patriots' control system, and leads Snake, their trusted yet unknowing tool, to become the agent of their ruin. For greater verisimilitude, at no point does Snake enjoy an easy ride: the sheer felocity of the forces ranged against him (soldiers, the Gekkos, the BB Corps, Vamp) underlines the apparent sincerity of Liquid Ocelot's desire to allay the legendary soldier. And yet Ocelot, significantly, fails to dispatch Snake when given several opportunities to do so, in a manner that clearly surpasses the traditional cliche of villainous arrogance.
Ocelot, then, is not a nefarious figure, a tyrant seeking endless power, but the mastermind behind a plan to break the authoritarian rule web that the Patriots were weaving over the world. From this perspective, Ocelot (even in his guise as the pitiless Liquid Ocelot) is as much a hero as Snake. Even his vicious rout of the forces brought by Meryl to capture him in Eastern Europe bears further examination. At the very moment that he froze military hardware throughout the world with an apparent nonchalant wave of his hand, didn't Ocelot effectively end all ongoing conflicts at once, becoming the main architect of peace and the man to end the war economy? Despite their mutual antagonism from the first time they met, Snake and Ocelot actually worked together to stop The Patriots' rule.
Only once the virus has been deployed does Ocelot reveal hints of his true self. There is an almost cathartic quality to the brutal unarmed combat that ensues between the two before Ocelot's life is extinguished by the FOXDIE that courses through Snake's veins. Ocelot's valediction confirms that he actually played Liquid's role all along: "I am Liquid's doppelganger."
[.....]
Some, like EVA, Ocelot, Naomi and Big Boss (who deliberately breathes the FOXDIE virus exhaled by Snake) find redemption in death, both their own and in that of The Patriots' corrupted ideals. Others, such as Otacon, Meryl and Campbell, find redemption in life through their atonement for past mistakes. As for Snake, he finds himself poised between life and death, trapped between the past and the future, between Snake and David. There is, perhaps, a hint of a future, for the tired soldiers before the end credits roll. With the knowledge that the new FOXDIE virus has supplanted the one before it, Big Boss encourages Snake to start over, to embrace a new (albeit short) life as a fresh aura dawns. >>
The guide also clarifies the confusion on why EVA and Ocelot act as enemies in Act 3:
<< EVA died believing that Liquid Ocelot truly existed, as convinced as any other that her friend had become merely a vessel for Liquid's malign spirit. This was the true extent of the price that Ocelot had to pay in order to succeed: not even EVA could know the true scope of his plan. >>
As to why Ocelot attacked Snake with the ship, wouldn't it be unnatural to command a giant ship, have your enemy right in front of you and just... leave? Ocelot knew that Raiden would come to Snake's rescue and used this to seem to try to kill Snake.
Holy shit, only 2 playsessions and I already blazed through act 1. Couldn't believe I played for 3 and a half hour. At this rate I'm done by tomorrow.
Also, now I understand why people where putting this game up there with Uncharted. It's just unreal how some stuff looks. The whole airplane is just... Wow.
Easter Eggs! That cake thing is pretty amazing.
Also, now I understand why people where putting this game up there with Uncharted. It's just unreal how some stuff looks. The whole airplane is just... Wow.
TTP said:
Easter Eggs!
That cake thing is pretty amazing.ZeroTolerance
Junior Member
I stopped playinga after the 2.4 update. I will resume playing after the trophy patch. (Here is to hoping).
Steiner_Zi said:*Important post*
/snip
[/spoiler]
He may have been able to slightly influence Liquid's motions from deep down within, but the consciousness that was in control was without a doubt Liquid's. For example, if Ocelot really really wanted to jack off, then he could probably get Liquid to jack off. But if Liquid uses his left hand and Ocelot prefers his right, Liquid Ocelot would probably end up using his left. It's literally works exactly the same way as the "possessing of the arm" in two, just a different way of getting there.
The bottom line is that you don't need nanomachines and hypnotic suggestion to just act-play-pretend when you've survived as a double agent in the cold war. It clearly goes a lot further than that.
The bottom line is that you don't need nanomachines and hypnotic suggestion to just act-play-pretend when you've survived as a double agent in the cold war. It clearly goes a lot further than that.
Was that stuff you pasted from the Online Database, or the Prima's Official Guide?
Steiner_Zi
Member
Piggyback's official guide. P.196-7&202.Awntawn said:
Kojima writes a one-page introduction where he says that the guide is a collaboration between Piggyback and Kojima Productions.
Guts Of Thor
Thorax of Odin
Does anyone know where I can find the tracks that were on the in game ipod?
MiamiWesker
Member
TTP just blew my mind, wow!
So does anyone know how the emo camo works?
So does anyone know how the emo camo works?
TTP said:
I'm really curious to see how Konami expands MGS4.
On one hand, they've all but ignored PSN with the Online portion, so my hope for VR missions is a bit depressed.
Then again, they did release the Metal Gear Database, which was awesome. So PSN might still be in the works.
But then again, their online downloadable service goes through the Konami online service and not PSN (since you don't have to be logged into PSN to download new camos).
But perhaps they will patch the game with new features, to be unveiled at E3?
I WANT SOME ANSWERS MAN!
The bottom line is, most of the backlash comes from the fact thatSteiner_Zi said:
many people just aren't buying into the whole hypnosis thing. They feel that either Ocelot should be 100% possessed by Liquid and is in no control over himself, or he's just fake orgasming the whole time thereby rendering the plot and all tensions throughout the entire series involving him essentially WWE-style rigged with no real sense of danger.
I feel that what Kojima meant was that he really did turn into Liquid, but deep down without knowing still had Ocelot's intentions influencing his behavior. Think like a Jason Bourne with amnesia. He doesn't know who he is or where he came from, but still deep down inside retains all of his skills, survival instinct and knowledge, and hunches on where to find clues about his former self, etc. In Ocelot's sense, once the change took place, he truly did believe that he was Liquid. If perhaps, Snake had died, he wouldn't have just snapped out of it and gone, "Oh shit, whoops." It's more likely that the Liquid persona really would have taken over and accomplished what he (Liquid) wanted throughout the whole plot. There's no ingenuity to the dangers or anything "because he wasn't really trying to kill Snake because he wasn't really Liquid" or anything like that. No, Liquid really wanted to do what he wanted to do, and Ocelot essentially set him up towards a trap that ALMOST went down the shitter had Raiden not stopped ship, had Snake failed at any of the tasks along the way throughout the game. Ocelot and EVA trusted that Snake would manage to come through for them. It was a gamble.
I feel that what Kojima meant was that he really did turn into Liquid, but deep down without knowing still had Ocelot's intentions influencing his behavior. Think like a Jason Bourne with amnesia. He doesn't know who he is or where he came from, but still deep down inside retains all of his skills, survival instinct and knowledge, and hunches on where to find clues about his former self, etc. In Ocelot's sense, once the change took place, he truly did believe that he was Liquid. If perhaps, Snake had died, he wouldn't have just snapped out of it and gone, "Oh shit, whoops." It's more likely that the Liquid persona really would have taken over and accomplished what he (Liquid) wanted throughout the whole plot. There's no ingenuity to the dangers or anything "because he wasn't really trying to kill Snake because he wasn't really Liquid" or anything like that. No, Liquid really wanted to do what he wanted to do, and Ocelot essentially set him up towards a trap that ALMOST went down the shitter had Raiden not stopped ship, had Snake failed at any of the tasks along the way throughout the game. Ocelot and EVA trusted that Snake would manage to come through for them. It was a gamble.
I must say..after playing sneaking and team sneaking missions online the single player is a frigging cake walk now lol. I could probably beat the game (outside of a couple boss battles) with nothing but my knife and some stun grenades.
...
Tempting..
Oh and for you guys that haven't tried out MGO yet or the new mode..team sneaking is frigging amazing. AMAZING I tell you.
...
Tempting..
Oh and for you guys that haven't tried out MGO yet or the new mode..team sneaking is frigging amazing. AMAZING I tell you.
Steiner_Zi said:
I can't reconcile this with what we are clearly told at the end of the game. In the ending,
Big Boss says that Eva herself used body parts from Liquid and Solidus to repair his (Big Boss') body. Based on that, it's illogical to believe anything other than that Eva knew exactly what was going on, and that she knew that the body at the river was Solidus'. We learned in MGS3 that she was a graduate of one of the Philosophers' charm schools, so we know that she knew how to act and do what she wanted to get her goals accomplished. As for why she jumped in the fire, it seems extreme but you could say it was part of her act, she probably had decided to sacrifice herself for the ultimate end goal of ending the Patriots' reign, especially after her injury when she got knocked off the bike
If you can explain that, feel free. Not trying to argue, but I can't see a way around all that.
Edit-I just saw where you mentioned the page that Kojima wrote explaining the collaboration on the guide. My head hurts even more.
chubigans said:I'm really curious to see how Konami expands MGS4.
On one hand, they've all but ignored PSN with the Online portion, so my hope for VR missions is a bit depressed.
Then again, they did release the Metal Gear Database, which was awesome. So PSN might still be in the works.
But then again, their online downloadable service goes through the Konami online service and not PSN (since you don't have to be logged into PSN to download new camos).
But perhaps they will patch the game with new features, to be unveiled at E3?
I WANT SOME ANSWERS MAN!
Man, I'm 100% with you. You know what my dream would be? A PSN game series called something like "Raiden Chronicles", based on an improved MGS4 engine and describing the in-between MGS2/MGS4 Raiden story. You can make at least three episodes out of that.
Ep. 1 - Finding Sunny
Ep. 2 - A New Cyborg Ninja
Ep. 3 - The quest for Big Boss.
Ep. 2 - A New Cyborg Ninja
Ep. 3 - The quest for Big Boss.
Steiner_Zi
Member
Johnas said:
EVA herself mentions that they were once allies with Ocelot but eventually she "lost" him. In Europe she knew that the body was Solidus which is why she is lying to both Snake, the Patriots' tool, and Ocelot who she thinks of as an enemy. She tries to convince everyone present in that scene that this is truly Big Boss's body so that no one will go after him. The jumping-into-the-fire thing can only be explained by what you said, of course.
Johnas said:
Actually, I just had a thought.
I can see how Eva could have been unaware of Liquid Ocelot's scheming, based on her comment at the church on how "we lost Ocelot" when she tells Snake of the plan. I guess the only explanation then for the Big Boss' body thing is that she didn't finish the reconstruction herself, that would be the only way I could think that she could get the bodies mixed up
EDIT-Too slow. What you posted above makes sense, thanks.
User 10639
Member
Bumpy Trot would totally sue.Awntawn said:
Steiner_Zi
Member
Awntawn and Johnas, it was a good chat. Which makes me think what everyone is calling "inconsistencies" or "plot holes" is because of the fact that they did not sit down and process what they watched, light-heartedly dismissing it as junk. There are some far-fetched plot points, sure, but nothing that does not make sense or contradicts each other.
without any time to think about it and put the pieces together doesn't help, either. Unlike Snake Eater where the twist comes more naturally, MGS4's revelations are harder to digest but digestable indeed.
Which makes me think what everyone is calling "inconsistencies" or "plot holes" is because of the fact that they did not sit down and process what they watched, light-heartedly dismissing it as junk. There are some far-fetched plot points, sure, but nothing that does not make sense or contradicts each other.
That we are exposed to the big twist at the utter last moment
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
It's retarded anyway.
The whole idea of making a prequel is probably why
Because we are now supposed to see Ocelot as a hero as much as Snake, it is completely ridiculous. He was a villain who would simply never accept to be surpassed by anyone and hence always ended up using everyone to for his own end. He killed Meryl in MGS1 (bad ending, sure, but still), was ready to kill everyone on Arsenal, killed the president, etc. But no, he was an architect of peace pretending to be a bad guy like his mother had before. Right! ROLLEYES.GIF! :lol
The whole idea of making a prequel is probably why
that ending was made, because before that none of it was necessary at all, Big Boss died on the volta for good, Ocelot never accepted being used and always sought to surpass anyone who would use him and ironically ended up being surpassed/controlled by Liquid due to his obsession with Big Boss' qualities/genes after taking Liquid's arm, only to end up doing pretty much what he always want to accomplish against The Patriots that were no longer in line with his vision of The Boss' ideals, except it would be Liquid who would get the credit in the end. But no, he's a hero and all, it was all part of his plan and Snake just played along.
Probably also why you can see Mantis' strings on Snake when he dies sometimes. Snake was a puppet. Woot woot.
Probably also why you can see Mantis' strings on Snake when he dies sometimes. Snake was a puppet. Woot woot.
I don't think anyone is supposed to be a black and white hero in this series.
In the end, everyone was just chasing after BB's ideal world.
Even madmen are guided by something, many believe they're doing the world good by their actions. I think the more you try to polarize things as good/evil, the harder it is to accept the game.
In the end, everyone was just chasing after BB's ideal world.
Even madmen are guided by something, many believe they're doing the world good by their actions. I think the more you try to polarize things as good/evil, the harder it is to accept the game.
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