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[SamuraiX-]

Define proximity. By your standards, Snake and Ocelot were in close proximity at the end of Act 1, as well. From what we have seen in MGS1&4, one has to be face to face with the other in order to be infected.

Spoiler

So I guess when Liquid Ocelot placed his forehead's against Snake's at the end of Act 3, that didn't count, eh? My theory is that the new FOXDIE affected the EVA, Ocelot, and Big Boss in the same way it was theorized to have spread in MGS1: affecting the older faster.

EVA was 78 years old in MGS4.
Ocelot was 70 years old in MGS4.
Big Boss could have been anywhere between 75-84 years old. My guess it that he was around 82.

Notice how Liquid Ocelot, the youngest of the targets, took the longest to die, even after being exposed close to Snake twice throughout the game. EVA was in between, taking only a few hours to die after exposure to the virus. As for Big Boss, he died the fastest out of all of them possibly due to the fact that he was the oldest.

That's my theory anyway.

 

[Steiner_Zi]

Samurai-X:

Spoiler

I don't think you're entirely correct. Age is not such an important issue, at least IMO. FoxDIE does not act instantly or/and the host needs to be close to the target for a long period of time in order for the latter to be infected. Don't forget that in MGS1, Liquid contracted the virus after being in contact with Snake for a very long time.

 

[rhino4evr]

crazy theory: Maybe Foxdie is based on your actual fate, once your fate has been fufilled/objectives accomplished it becomes active? I know this is way out there, but so is the entire Act 5.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Samurai-X:

Spoiler

I don't think you're entirely correct. Age is not such an important issue, at least IMO. FoxDIE does not act instantly or/and the host needs to be close to the target for a long period of time in order for the latter to be infected. Don't forget that in MGS1, Liquid contracted the virus after being in contact with Snake for a very long time.

Spoiler

It's not really about me being correct or not. I'm just going off of what Ocelot said in MGS1...


Ocelot : FoxDie... It killed Octopus and the ArmsTech president... So it's true that it affects older people first. Mantis might not have been affected because he wore a mask.


That's why it killed the DARPA Chief (who was really Decoy Octopus who had injected Anderson's blood into himself) and Kenneth Baker so quickly. Snake was only in contact with those two for about 20 or so minutes. Liquid Snake was in his early 30s, and that's why I'm assuming it took so long to affect him.

But it is strange, with Ocelot being 70 in MGS4, it should have still affected him pretty damn quickly. I'm guessing the Patriots tampered with the age-detection mechanism a little bit with the new FOXDIE strain they injected into Snake.

 

[Steiner_Zi]

But it is strange, with Ocelot being 70 in MGS4, it should have still affected him pretty damn quickly. I'm guessing the Patriots tampered with the age-detection mechanism a little bit with the new FOXDIE strain they injected into Snake.[/spoiler]

I think that is the answer. We are talking about different viruses in MGS1&4.

 

[Darkpen]

Rather, you have to think of FoxDie's behavior in MGS1 as being something that was still being tested. But when it comes to MGS4, each victim that died to the new Foxdie was around Snake for an extended period of time, unlike the Decoy Octopus, and the AT prez. But then there's Liquid to take into consideration as well.

So really, who the hell knows.

Spoiler

btw, the victims of the new foxdie were simply Eva, Ocelot, and BB.

 

[Steiner_Zi]

Rather, you have to think of FoxDie's behavior in MGS1 as being something that was still being tested. But when it comes to MGS4, each victim that died to the new Foxdie was around Snake for an extended period of time, unlike the Decoy Octopus, and the AT prez. But then there's Liquid to take into consideration as well.

Well, the virus had two Snakes to choose from, give him a break.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Well, the virus had two Snakes to choose from, give him a break.

Spoiler

It's not about that though. The FOXDIE in Snake's body was programmed to kill him at any random point in his life, so he would always live in fear. This is when Naomi was still bitter about him. The FOXDIE that killed Liquid was the same virus, but it was programmed to kill him instantly once the receptors in his genes matched those that were implemented into the virus.

 

[jett]

Define proximity.

In Act 3 Snake and Liquid practically kiss each other. Do yourself a favor and stop defending this.

 

[Raist]

thanks but you left out one of my side questions...

Spoiler

if it was all part of Ocelot's plan, why did he try and kill Snake on top of Outer Haven? He even admitted to Snake that "he had accomplished his goal", so why try and kill him, shouldnt he be congratulating you instead?

Well, this is MY take on the whole

Spoiler

but why Ocelot tries to kill Snake if he wants him to destroy the patriots

Spoiler

Ocelot may have "faked" Liquid's personnality but he did some psychotherapy and nanomachines voodoo to make it convincing. IMO it was so well done that Liquid's personnality would actually, at times, totally take control. Not some kind of paranormal stuff like we thought until MGS4, just that he was somewhat himself convinced that he was Liquid. So of course, when he's Ocelot, he says that he "faked" it. But he does say that he's Liquid's doppleganger. Not just an imitator. So yes, Liquid's personnality takes totally control of Ocelot's acts sometimes, and he tries to kill Snake. With Ray in MGS2, With Outer Haven in Act 4, on top of it in Act 5.
Now, why he always fails ? Why he tries to crush Snake with the boat when he could just nuke him with the boat's guns ? Well, it's like the typical villain in James Bond movies that wants to kill the super hero spy, but instead of just shooting him at point blank with a gun, right between the eyes, prefers to leave him with only one noob guard, in a piranha pool or something, with like 10 mins to find a way out :lol

That's my take on it anyway, I'm not saying I'm right, but for me it fits

 

[Rocket786]

Well I was thinking about the original ending that was supposed to be in MGS4 with

Spoiler

Snake and Otacon turning themselves in and getting executed.

There's another thing that makes a lot of sense with that ending. That's about

Spoiler

Ocelot's character. That Big Boss speech wouldn't be in the alternate ending and so everything that was happening in MGS4 was REALLY happening and not all just charades. So Ocelot would have to be bad. I mean he has to be bad because he almost freakin ran over Snake with Arsenal Gear! Naomi on the other hand would be the one that backstabbed Ocelot (kind of ironic with how much double-crossing Ocelot's done in the past games) and the Patriots. She joined Snake to get help from Otacon (turns out to really be Sunny) to create FoxAlive to kill the whole freakin system instead of just killing GW. She gets her redemption by helping shut down everything.

Ocelot at the end figures that Snake has ruined Outer Heaven by destroying GW (remember the religious reference Eva explained in Act 3. Each person took The Boss' ideals in their own way, and Ocelot/Liquid's interpretation was this Outer Heaven. Ocelot could still admire Big Boss this way and it gives his character more depth.). He fights Snake to the death, and could still die from FoxDie. Then Snake and Otacon turn themselves in, and it's followed by an epic scene of them getting executed as traitors/terrorists.

The only weird thing with this ending would be how Liquid took control of Ocelot's body. They could make a reference to The Sorrow in some way and figure that out.

The more I think about it, the more this "alternate" ending sounds better and better. I did not like the fact that

Spoiler

the whole thing was a charade by Ocelot. He tried to kill Snake over and over and over and over again! You can't do that and tell us at the end that it was all a plan.

Anyways, I really hope that Kojima puts the original ending that they planned for MGS4 in the MGS4:Substance type of disc that comes out in the next few years. It sounds LOADS better than what we got.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I still cannot understand what you find so dumb and cheap.

Spoiler

Ocelot is redeemed because whatever he did was not for money, power or self-satisfaction, such as Bush, Hitler and any other such historical figure, but in order to *free* the world from the Patriots's reign. Ocelot is not like Volgin, a straightforward pure-evil villain, and had always fooled and triple-crossed everyone around him. The fact that he betrays even the Patriots themselves when the organisation gets out of control is not against his character.

George Bush or anyone could "pretend" that the fact they were making out of their actions was just part of their role too. You can do that with any character and their motivations regardless of what they got out of their actions. It is cheap.

EDIT: Like sonicmj1 said.

Like I said before, the ending was probably changed to what it si now to make room for prequels.

 

[Steiner_Zi]

George Bush or anyone could "pretend" that the fact they were making out of their actions was just part of their role too. You can do that with any character and their motivations regardless of what they got out of their actions. It is cheap.

EDIT: Like sonicmj1 said.

Like I said before, the ending was probably changed to what it si now to make room for prequels.

Spoiler

No, because Ocelot eventually ended the war economy and gave the power back to the hands of the people. Bush has done the exact opposite.

Anyways, I really hope that Kojima puts the original ending that they planned for MGS4 in the MGS4:Substance type of disc that comes out in the next few years. It sounds LOADS better than what we got.

The "original" ending that you made up?:lol
BTW,

Spoiler

Big Boss was to be alive in the game

since the very beginning, as he was shown in the first post ever for the game back in 2005. Face it, people, this is the end of MGS4 and it's not gonna change. Kojima received much backlash for Raiden in MGS2, too, but he didn't remove him from Substance because the game's plot was designed specifically with him as the lead character. The same goes for MGS4, Kojima wrapped up the entire Metal Gear timeline with this interpretation in his mind. Deal with it.

 

[sonicmj1]

Spoiler

No, because Ocelot eventually ended the war economy and gave the power back to the hands of the people. Bush has done the exact opposite.

Or has he?

Spoiler

By having a completely incompetent political reign over the course of two terms, he has made people disillusioned with the Republican party, and with politics in general. This means that people want to get involved in politics. By creating such discontent with 'politics as usual', he has gotten people involved in political change, putting more power in the hands of the populace, in a way.

It makes at least as much sense as what Ocelot does. The ends justify the means, apparently, right?

 

[Darkpen]

you guys might want to check this out

http://www.cracked.com/article_16449_p2.html

specifically the one w/ the guy and the rocket-powered flying D:

 

[Steiner_Zi]

Or has he?

Spoiler

By having a completely incompetent political reign over the course of two terms, he has made people disillusioned with the Republican party, and with politics in general. This means that people want to get involved in politics. By creating such discontent with 'politics as usual', he has gotten people involved in political change, putting more power in the hands of the populace, in a way.

It makes at least as much sense as what Ocelot does. The ends justify the means, apparently, right?

The whole "change" thing is a catchy phrase for voters of 2008 to feed on, so no.

Spoiler

Ocelot had no other means to face the Patriots, even Big Boss had failed.

Bush did have, didn't he?

 

[Ferrio]

Spoiler

the whole thing was a charade by Ocelot. He tried to kill Snake over and over and over and over again! You can't do that and tell us at the end that it was all a plan.

.

Spoiler

Though you could make the same point that there were many times he could of easily killed him but didn't.

-While torturing him in MGS1
-When stealing Ray in MGS2
-Many times in MGS4.

 

[liquidspeed]

Spoiler

Naomi set a wildcard program into effect with the FOXDIE in Snake's body. It could attack and kill him at any point in his life. He was just lucky it wasn't able to before Drebin could inject him with that new strain of FOXDIE.

Spoiler

Yeah I know; I was replying to someone else saying that Ocelot Should have died in Act 3 when they were in close proximity; so I said that Fox die didnt nessasrily kill its victims immediatly; sometimes it was programed to take a bit of time to go into effect... It also makes sence that they died of Foxdie after being injured because A. Their bodies would have been weakend and 2, Fox die Acts Quicker when someone is under stress Acording to Liquid snake at the end of MGS1

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I just got done watching the Documentary / Making of disc that came with the LE version and I am
really impressed.

I loved getting such a long look into the development of the game. The whole thing was really excellent
and did a good job of showing how different Kojima as a game designer is.

 

[dark10x]

OK, one question that hasn't been answered (regarding a part of the ending)...

Spoiler

During the final battle with Liquid, how the hell did they get on top of Outer Haven? Otacon runs off to find a medic, yet they are sitting on top of this gigantic tower for no apparent reason. Was this ever explained? I mean, it was a fantastic setting for such a battle, yet there was no real reason for them to be up there. Did Otacon or Liquid CARRY Old Snake up the ladder or something? Did the helicopter run out of gas and crash into the ocean only to force Otacon to leave Snake behind while he goes to fetch another? Surely I've missed something.

 

[Yoshichan]

OK, one question that hasn't been answered (regarding a part of the ending)...

Spoiler

During the final battle with Liquid, how the hell did they get on top of Outer Haven? Otacon runs off to find a medic, yet they are sitting on top of this gigantic tower for no apparent reason. Was this ever explained? I mean, it was a fantastic setting for such a battle, yet there was no real reason for them to be up there. Did Otacon or Liquid CARRY Old Snake up the ladder or something? Did the helicopter run out of gas and crash into the ocean only to force Otacon to leave Snake behind while he goes to fetch another? Surely I've missed something.

I was wondering this exact same thing!

 

[Steiner_Zi]

OK, one question that hasn't been answered (regarding a part of the ending)...

Spoiler

During the final battle with Liquid, how the hell did they get on top of Outer Haven? Otacon runs off to find a medic, yet they are sitting on top of this gigantic tower for no apparent reason. Was this ever explained? I mean, it was a fantastic setting for such a battle, yet there was no real reason for them to be up there. Did Otacon or Liquid CARRY Old Snake up the ladder or something? Did the helicopter run out of gas and crash into the ocean only to force Otacon to leave Snake behind while he goes to fetch another? Surely I've missed something.

Spoiler

Probably Ocelot took him there because when Snake regains his consciousness he sees Ocelot watching over him. As for the reason to carry him on the top of the ship? To have the perfect setting for the final fight.

 

[sonicmj1]

OK, one question that hasn't been answered (regarding a part of the ending)...

Spoiler

During the final battle with Liquid, how the hell did they get on top of Outer Haven? Otacon runs off to find a medic, yet they are sitting on top of this gigantic tower for no apparent reason. Was this ever explained? I mean, it was a fantastic setting for such a battle, yet there was no real reason for them to be up there. Did Otacon or Liquid CARRY Old Snake up the ladder or something? Did the helicopter run out of gas and crash into the ocean only to force Otacon to leave Snake behind while he goes to fetch another? Surely I've missed something.

Cos it's awesome.

There are plenty of things I'm willing to question. That is not one of them.

 

[Awntawn]

How quickly stuff gets lost in these threads ;'(

For those people who refuse to accept the whole

Spoiler

Liquid Doppelganger

thing, I recommend the movie "Tale of Two Sisters". I have no idea how the Hollywood version is going to turn out, but the Korean movie was very eye-opening about a similar concept. Turn on the subtitles and let it rip D;

 

[rhino4evr]

OK, one question that hasn't been answered (regarding a part of the ending)...

Spoiler

During the final battle with Liquid, how the hell did they get on top of Outer Haven? Otacon runs off to find a medic, yet they are sitting on top of this gigantic tower for no apparent reason. Was this ever explained? I mean, it was a fantastic setting for such a battle, yet there was no real reason for them to be up there. Did Otacon or Liquid CARRY Old Snake up the ladder or something? Did the helicopter run out of gas and crash into the ocean only to force Otacon to leave Snake behind while he goes to fetch another? Surely I've missed something.

yeah, this doesn't make sense either, and where the hell is Ocelot the entire Act 5? I guess he didn't want to disrupt Snakes plan?

 

[dark10x]

Spoiler

Probably Ocelot took him there because when Snake regains his consciousness he sees Ocelot watching over him. As for the reason to carry him on the top of the ship? To have the perfect setting for the final fight.

Spoiler

Still, how could Ocelot have even pulled that off? He didn't exactly seem completely capable of pulling off such a feat as the location seemed to be pretty high up. How could he have carried a grown man in his condition? I mean, I understand why Kojima went for it, but it really is odd when you consider how much attention every other tiny detail received. I guess it doesn't really matter as the fight was straight awesome, but still...

 

[BigBoss]

Spoiler

Still, how could Ocelot have even pulled that off? He didn't exactly seem completely capable of pulling off such a feat as the location seemed to be pretty high up. How could he have carried a grown man in his condition? I mean, I understand why Kojima went for it, but it really is odd when you consider how much attention every other tiny detail received.

Remember MGS1 how Liquid supposedly carried Snake while he was asleep on top of Rex? Same thing, don't think about it and enjoy the beautiful scenery.

 

[Kadey]

After beating the game and watching HK's gene, I have a newfound respect for HK and his team.
I'm not a huge of fan of the series myself until now but I can say this is one of the most bittersweet endings ever. It was dragging in some parts but I thought everything came together nicely, especially the plot twists.

 

[Darkpen]

I was wondering this exact same thing!

*cough*MGS1Rexfight*cough*

edit: damn, beaten.

Seriously, I don't get why you guys are questioning stuff like that.

 

[MiamiWesker]

*cough*MGS1Rexfight*cough*

edit: damn, beaten.

Seriously, I don't get why you guys are questioning stuff like that.

Its something I have noticed a lot, people complaining about things in MGS4 that are present in every MGS game.

 

[Pimpwerx]

40 emblems! I'd start on MGO, but I still have to beat Folklore. PEACE.

 

[Rocket786]

Spoiler

No, because Ocelot eventually ended the war economy and gave the power back to the hands of the people. Bush has done the exact opposite.

The "original" ending that you made up?:lol
BTW,

Spoiler

Big Boss was to be alive in the game

since the very beginning, as he was shown in the first post ever for the game back in 2005. Face it, people, this is the end of MGS4 and it's not gonna change. Kojima received much backlash for Raiden in MGS2, too, but he didn't remove him from Substance because the game's plot was designed specifically with him as the lead character. The same goes for MGS4, Kojima wrapped up the entire Metal Gear timeline with this interpretation in his mind. Deal with it.

I apologize for wording it the "original" ending, but from a lot of posts here it seems like that was the original intent.

Spoiler

For Snake and Otacon to turn themselves in to the authorities and be executed as terrorists/traitors.

I'm not sure where that came from, but I just took that from this thread. Like I said, I'm sorry for calling it the "original" ending. As for Kojima receiving backlash for Raiden; he didn't remove him from Substance but I believe he did put some extra Snake missions (even though they were rough and without voice acting) in the game.

So if this "alternate" ending was a reality at some point, I hope Kojima puts that as an extra in MGS4: Substance. If that "alternate" ending was just speculation, then clearly it won't be in the game. Regardless, I need to play MGS4 again so I can comprehend the story better and perhaps learn to appreciate it for what it is. I just can't force myself to come into terms that

Spoiler

Ocelot constantly tries to kill Snake, yet it's supposed to be a charade and Ocelot was just testing Snake's limits...

If that issue wasn't there, I would have NO problems with the game. Everything else was fan-freakin-tastic!

 

[BigBoss]

I apologize for wording it the "original" ending, but from a lot of posts here it seems like that was the original intent.

Spoiler

For Snake and Otacon to turn themselves in to the authorities and be executed as terrorists/traitors.

I'm not sure where that came from, but I just took that from this thread. Like I said, I'm sorry for calling it the "original" ending. As for Kojima receiving backlash for Raiden; he didn't remove him from Substance but I believe he did put some extra Snake missions (even though they were rough and without voice acting) in the game.

So if this "alternate" ending was a reality at some point, I hope Kojima puts that as an extra in MGS4: Substance. If that "alternate" ending was just speculation, then clearly it won't be in the game. Regardless, I need to play MGS4 again so I can comprehend the story better and perhaps learn to appreciate it for what it is. I just can't force myself to come into terms that

Spoiler

Ocelot constantly tries to kill Snake, yet it's supposed to be a charade and Ocelot was just testing Snake's limits...

If that issue wasn't there, I would have NO problems with the game. Everything else was fan-freakin-tastic!

Spoiler

Did you have problems coming to terms with the story of MGS1? Because its pretty much the same deal, Liquid and the rest of FOXHOUND attempt to kill Snake multiple times yet we know their plan the whole time was to get Snake to activate Rex. You just need to stop over-analyzing everything.

 

[Darkpen]

it was an ending that was scratched a while ago, and was ultimately rejected because Imaizumi and Payton said it was too depressing.

 

[Iaido Sword]

You're wrong.

Spoiler

Naomi clearly stated in Act 2 that Snake would die in 6 months.

And all of you who think I'm wrong... get owned.

Taken from that Gamefaqs game script which is quite correct.

Spoiler

Naomi: You and I both know your body is approaching its limit. When I said another half a year, I wasn't talking about your lifespan.

Play the game again.

Edit: Oh, it's already had a reply, but unlike Samurai X had said,

Spoiler

she had never stated a lifespan number. She only considered the time for the virus to become an epidemic. There was never a stated number for Snake's lifespan.

 

[doicare]

Just finished the game, in the words of PR people it was awesome, so awesome.

 

[Dave1988]

OK, another question:

Where does one get the "One Night in Neo Kobe City"? One of the FAQs states that you have to frisk a resistance member to obtain it. I've frisked countless resistance members through act 1,2 and 3 and still nothing.

 

[Ninja Kn1ght]

OK, another question:

Where does one get the "One Night in Neo Kobe City"? One of the FAQs states that you have to frisk a resistance member to obtain it. I've frisked countless resistance members through act 1,2 and 3 and still nothing.

You have to hold up and frisk the resistance guy at the start of act 3.

 

[Dave1988]

You have to hold up and frisk the resistance guy at the start of act 3.

You sure? I did frisk him but he only gave the usual stuff. Oh well, I'll have another go at it.

 

[psycho_snake]

Define proximity. By your standards, Snake and Ocelot were in close proximity at the end of Act 1, as well. From what we have seen in MGS1&4, one has to be face to face with the other in order to be infected.

They practically were face to face

Spoiler

in act 3. If Foxdie kills people in close proximity, then ocelot should have died. The only way to explain it is that they wee not in close proximity long enough

There are two reasons.

Spoiler

a)Ocelot could not complete the virus on his own so he had Naomi join the Snake group in order to get help from Otacon. Naomi realised that Sunny was the true ultra-genius so she passed the task of completing the virus to Sunny. FoxALIVE was made thanks to the combination of the genius minds of Sunny, Naomi AND Emma, who must not we forget, was the designer of GW back in MGS2.

Ok, but that leads to another question:

Spoiler

Why did naomi go back to Ocelot?

Spoiler

b)Completing the virus was not enough, Ocelot had to overcome the AI's impenetrable security. There is no way that anyone would be able to access the system unless he had the AI's authorisation. Ocelot could not mess with a virus afflicting the whole system, he would have his ass kicked by the firewall. He had to have Snake do it without raising suspicions of the extremely cautious AIs. The moment JD was requested access by Snake/MK III to upload the virus willingly did so because it was the only way to stop Liquid Ocelot.

Yeah that makes sense

 

[dark10x]

*cough*MGS1Rexfight*cough*

edit: damn, beaten.

Seriously, I don't get why you guys are questioning stuff like that.

After replaying the game with someone else, we both agreed that Kojima wrapped up nearly every major and minor plot point and found it odd that he would simply omit such a detail. It really makes no difference and did not detract from the scene, but it still makes little sense.

 

[Steroyd]

Is there any way to save the tank in Act 1, the part right after Rat Patrol, i've tried a billion times but it keeps getting blowed up by some off the screen missile.

I don't really care either way because i'm going for bthe chicked run, just curious.

 

[GoncaloCCastro]

Is there any way to save the tank in Act 1, the part right after Rat Patrol, i've tried a billion times but it keeps getting blowed up by some off the screen missile.

I don't really care either way because i'm going for bthe chicked run, just curious.

Yup, there is! The blocked path then opens up at the end of the street.

 

[GoncaloCCastro]

BTW here's something I fooled around with, a panorama of the

Spoiler

heliport

. Link

 

[Steroyd]

Yup, there is! The blocked path then opens up at the end of the street.

ah!

The tank blows up anyway, but it's mission accomplished when you can go through via the main road instead of climbing up the ladder to go round, gotchya

 

[Dave1988]

I did Act3 again and still nothing and I frisked every resistance member I encountered. I even used to Solar Gun to check if I really got everything from them...

 

[Catalix]

I did Act3 again and still nothing and I frisked every resistance member I encountered. I even used to Solar Gun to check if I really got everything from them...

That's weird. I frisked him when

Spoiler

he was wearing the PMC disguise during the last section

and got it.

 

[Steiner_Zi]

Ok, but that leads to another question:

Spoiler

Why did naomi go back to Ocelot?

Spoiler

Naomi had to notify Ocelot what was going to happen with the virus because that's why she came in contact with Snake/Otacon in the first place. After that, Ocelot's plan gets in its final phase to force Snake chase him in Shadow Moses, witness him to steal REX's nuclear gun and then chase him to Outer Haven.

 

[Dave1988]

That's weird. I frisked him when

Spoiler

he was wearing the PMC disguise during the last section

and got it.

It pisses me off because that's the only track that I'm missing.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Hey we haven't gotten any news as to if and when the game might support trophys right?