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Metal Gear Solid 4 |OT| No Place to Hide, No Time for a Legend to FoxDie
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
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So...was this ever clarified?:
Was Ocelot "possesed" by Liquid or not? Big Boss says at the end that it was Ocelot's efforts that turned him into a Liquid "doppelganger" with the intent of bypassing the A.I. security. If that's so, does that mean that the "ahhh! the arm is taking over my body" moments in MGS2 were all an act? Halp plz.
That also confused me a bit. I believe what you stated is precisely what Kojima had in mind for MGS4. During the final battle with Ocelot, he removes his coat and you see that the arm he is using isn't even a human arm at all so it was obviously NOT the arm of Liquid.
I believe MGS2 creates a few problems for this story point that Kojima didn't initially think through and was essentially left to clear up with future games. Of course, what Big Boss says regarding stimuli triggering reactions makes sense (Snake triggering Liquid) and falls in line with what we are told Ocelot went through. The only thing I can think of is that the arm was simply used as a method for explaining why Ocelot was taken over by Liquid in order to evade the Patriots.
The only thing that remains a mystery is why they used Cam Clarke's voice in MGS2. THAT doesn't make any sense and certainly doesn't jive with what we are told. I think that was one of those things that Kojima thought would be cool but ultimately couldn't explain when the time came. MGS2 clearly had a lot of thought put into it, but I don't believe every plot point had a logical reasoning at the time of writing.
Of course, prior to MGS4, I had thought that MGS3 basically explained the arm. Was not Ocelot the son of The Boss and The Sorrow? As a son of The Sorrow, it seemed feasible that Ocelot would be a spirit medium as well and the attaching of Liquids arm would have triggered the type of reaction we saw in MGS2. That is a bit more fantastical, of course, but that seemed possible. Clearly that isn't what Kojima intended.
The whole situation is just a bit messy and I think they did they best they could to logically work with it.
I believe MGS2 creates a few problems for this story point that Kojima didn't initially think through and was essentially left to clear up with future games. Of course, what Big Boss says regarding stimuli triggering reactions makes sense (Snake triggering Liquid) and falls in line with what we are told Ocelot went through. The only thing I can think of is that the arm was simply used as a method for explaining why Ocelot was taken over by Liquid in order to evade the Patriots.
The only thing that remains a mystery is why they used Cam Clarke's voice in MGS2. THAT doesn't make any sense and certainly doesn't jive with what we are told. I think that was one of those things that Kojima thought would be cool but ultimately couldn't explain when the time came. MGS2 clearly had a lot of thought put into it, but I don't believe every plot point had a logical reasoning at the time of writing.
Of course, prior to MGS4, I had thought that MGS3 basically explained the arm. Was not Ocelot the son of The Boss and The Sorrow? As a son of The Sorrow, it seemed feasible that Ocelot would be a spirit medium as well and the attaching of Liquids arm would have triggered the type of reaction we saw in MGS2. That is a bit more fantastical, of course, but that seemed possible. Clearly that isn't what Kojima intended.
The whole situation is just a bit messy and I think they did they best they could to logically work with it.
Attack You
Member
dark10x said:
I think the bolded part was the original angle, myself. It seems obvious that Kojima really toned down The Crazy after assessing MGS2's reception. The Sorrow-Ocelot-Liquid connection actually made sense in the MGS World. I thought it was a bit of a cop out to let that go, personally.
JasoNsider
Member
Just finished the game and have incredibly mixed feelings.
This game is what happens to a story without a good deal of editing or restraint. It honestly reminds me of the script for the new Indiana Jones - when nobody bothers to stand up and say "sir, I think this might be too much" or "sir, I think we could stand to re-form certain sections". Metal Gear Solid, as it stood prior to release, could have used a load of reform in the way of writing. Now it's almost helpless and embarassing.
For the sake of reference, I've played through all games in the series. After MGS2 I remember thinking how badly the series needed to reform its outlook on creative writing and character development. The third game in the series, while still failing on a lot of elements in this regard, really pulled together an ending that left me breathless. For this latest title in the series there were points of frustration in dropping a potentially great story mechanic and also of complete embarassment at the whole ending sequence of events.
The list honestly goes on. I'm so confused about this series now and I feel it ended on such a sour note that not only bored me to tears, but confused it's own direction with gutless plot movements. I'll still be watching your work in the future, Kojima. Still looking forward to your games, I just really think the writing could use some restraint.
This game is what happens to a story without a good deal of editing or restraint. It honestly reminds me of the script for the new Indiana Jones - when nobody bothers to stand up and say "sir, I think this might be too much" or "sir, I think we could stand to re-form certain sections". Metal Gear Solid, as it stood prior to release, could have used a load of reform in the way of writing. Now it's almost helpless and embarassing.
For the sake of reference, I've played through all games in the series. After MGS2 I remember thinking how badly the series needed to reform its outlook on creative writing and character development. The third game in the series, while still failing on a lot of elements in this regard, really pulled together an ending that left me breathless. For this latest title in the series there were points of frustration in dropping a potentially great story mechanic and also of complete embarassment at the whole ending sequence of events.
As a story, this game fails on so many levels for me. The writing, at the beginning of the game, seems like it's ready to change the structure and flow on a number of levels for the better. When snake steps into the helicopter at the beginning and Ottocon says they've found "him", great work. Snake also standing outside in the graves, old, and still leaving the player wondering why he's so much older than Ottocon who just came out to see him. This is excellent structure. The speech at the beginning of the game (minus some really, really cheesy screams from the troops) with the use of the incredibly moving theme is totally incredible. From there, the game seems to slowly slump down and down to the point where I'm just left dissapointed at what could have been.
Here are a couple examples of writing that was dissapointing to me:
-Snake finds out he's got only a couple months to live. Snake finds out he could kill the world himself and it will only happen while he's alive. This is an incredibly dramatic story element that made me say "oh my god, I see that look in his eye, I know what he's thinking". But this seemingly goes nowhere and instead focus is moved to all sorts of other monologues and endless conversations about clones and lineage. For shame, as this could have been an asbolutely amazing climax
-Snake's downward spiral to death in the ship while crawling through the microwave. So incredible, so moving, and yet he gets up and walks away after that and even fights on top of the ship, etc. This was a perfect time to actually use a crescendo leading to an emotional climax and ultimately the falling action that would be the end of a story.
-Snake's suicide. I couldn't believe it while watching - the first time in the game from the opening that I was impressed with Kojima's structure. But no, he didn't even kill himself. I can't even tell you how dissapointing all the misdirection is.
-Tales of the women you killed. Very weak storytelling.
Here are a couple examples of writing that was dissapointing to me:
-Snake finds out he's got only a couple months to live. Snake finds out he could kill the world himself and it will only happen while he's alive. This is an incredibly dramatic story element that made me say "oh my god, I see that look in his eye, I know what he's thinking". But this seemingly goes nowhere and instead focus is moved to all sorts of other monologues and endless conversations about clones and lineage. For shame, as this could have been an asbolutely amazing climax
-Snake's downward spiral to death in the ship while crawling through the microwave. So incredible, so moving, and yet he gets up and walks away after that and even fights on top of the ship, etc. This was a perfect time to actually use a crescendo leading to an emotional climax and ultimately the falling action that would be the end of a story.
-Snake's suicide. I couldn't believe it while watching - the first time in the game from the opening that I was impressed with Kojima's structure. But no, he didn't even kill himself. I can't even tell you how dissapointing all the misdirection is.
-Tales of the women you killed. Very weak storytelling.
JasoNsider
Member
TTP said:
Otacon
Couldn't remember how to spell his name.Awntawn said:
Downloading it right now.
I read a quick summary of the plot, detailing how the movie opens and everything... Sounds really creepy... And the DVD cover for the film doesn't help much in relieving that feeling. :lol
Wikipedia reports that it is "the highest-grossing Korean horror film."
Hype +143
How much blood and gore would you say there is? Or does it cut down on that kinda stuff and present itself more as a thriller?
Attack You
Member
Downloading it right now.
You're in for a treat. And I guess the gore isn't gratuitous. It's more psychological than shock. It goes down a little better the 2nd time.
Found this gem at a Hollywood Video that was closing down at the time, for $5. Later gave it to a friend as a Halloween present, just because she appreciates all things Korean more than I do. I kinda regret that now, though, because I think she still hasn't watched it yet.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
You know who I blame (aside from Kojima obv) for the Drebin post B+B battle speeches? All the people who whined that the bosses from MGS3 didnt have enough backstory. They had just enough to keep some sense of mystery about them without the needless exposition seen in MGS4.
Their stories should have been told gradually in snippets during codecs\cutscenes each act, just like in MGS3.
Their stories should have been told gradually in snippets during codecs\cutscenes each act, just like in MGS3.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Hey, I obtained it the same exact way!Attack You said:You know you can get banned for that, right? Just sayin'.
You're in for a treat, though. And I guess the gore isn't gratuitous. It's more psychological than shock. It goes down a little better the 2nd time.
Found this gem at a Hollywood Video that was closing down at the time, for $5. Later gave it to a friend as a Halloween present, just because she appreciates all things Korean more than I do. I kinda regret that now, though, because I think she still hasn't watched it yet.
I definitely get the
Liquid-doppleganger
Attack You said:
Oh, whoops! My mistake. What I meant to say is that I'm downloading it LEGALLY right now. Yup.
Attack You said:You're in for a treat, though. And I guess the gore isn't gratuitous. It's more psychological than shock. It goes down a little better the 2nd time.
Found this gem at a Hollywood Video that was closing down at the time, for $5. Later gave it to a friend as a Halloween present, just because she appreciates all things Korean more than I do. I kinda regret that now, though, because I think she still hasn't watched it yet.
Sounds awesome. Can't wait.
And go steal the video back from your friend while all this is still fresh in your memory. :lol
TTP said:
The resistance guy has a different Snatcher track, Bio Hazard.
Neo Kobe is supposedly on one of the PMCs just outside the park, (says the interweb).
Haven't had a chance to confirm that one. I had just finished act 3 when I read about it, and I sure as hell wasn't gonna replay
the bike chase
dermannmitdemcolt
Member
JasoNsider said:
Shame on him.
That he didn't spoil the ending with the start screen (and a 3 year old trailer)
Dabookerman
Member
Doc Evils said:I've just ordered that Hori MGS4 charger stand.
I must of spent at least £500 on MGS4 related stuff and I still can't help my self.
Whatcha get?
I might list my stuff in a sec.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
GoncaloCCastro said:
Wow, that's pretty neat. Nice job.
JasoNsider
Member
dermannmitdemcolt said:
You can disagree if you'd like. No problem with that.
My personal beef is that there should have been more clear direction with the story. This one is a great example of what I thought was one of the few bold moves the story had taken after so much let-down and again had an "oh, gotcha!" yet again. Some of the greatest stories ever told are powerful because they take risks. Even MGS3, with many similar structure and lower-level problems with the story, had one or two parts where a risk was taken on structure.
MGS4 just had an incredible amount of times where you could see it moving in a new emotional direction only to use a silly amount of twists and shotgun-blast style story direction.
Again, the first couple minutes of the game gave me hope, but the structure of the story just went straight downhill as it went on in my humble opinion.
I can't kill the Octopus bitch! I have no bullets in my machine guns, I only have the stun gun and a pistol and they seem to do nothing! Do I have to visit Drebin for some fire power? What weapon would you guys recommend and is there a good strategy to take her out?
Sorry for the lame questions but I only get the time to play the game once a week if I get a couple of hours to do so
Sorry for the lame questions but I only get the time to play the game once a week if I get a couple of hours to do so
Valkyr Junkie
Member
Firewire said:I can't kill the Octopus bitch! I have no bullets in my machine guns, I only have the stun gun and a pistol and they seem to do nothing! Do I have to visit Drebin for some fire power? What weapon would you guys recommend and is there a good strategy to take her out?
Sorry for the lame questions but I only get the time to play the game once a week if I get a couple of hours to do so
That's all you have? At this point you should have enough RPG rounds to cheese her to death if you'd like. Just buy some M4 ammo from Drebin and try that.
Firewire said:I can't kill the Octopus bitch! I have no bullets in my machine guns, I only have the stun gun and a pistol and they seem to do nothing! Do I have to visit Drebin for some fire power? What weapon would you guys recommend and is there a good strategy to take her out?
Sorry for the lame questions but I only get the time to play the game once a week if I get a couple of hours to do so
When I first fought her I did it entirely with the tranq pistol. It took about 30 minutes but if you keep at it, you shouldn't need to buy from Drebin assuming you have enough tranq ammo.
AndresON777
shooting blanks
Firewire said:I can't kill the Octopus bitch! I have no bullets in my machine guns, I only have the stun gun and a pistol and they seem to do nothing! Do I have to visit Drebin for some fire power? What weapon would you guys recommend and is there a good strategy to take her out?
Sorry for the lame questions but I only get the time to play the game once a week if I get a couple of hours to do so
just make sure you use your night vision the whole time on the solid eye so you can see her, equip a rocket launcher and you can always buy ammo from drebin even if you are in mid battle. I also had a grenade launcher put on my m4 custom to use that as well, although the reload takes for ever....when she sends out those squiggly things that blow up just run around and dive a lot...you'll get it, the bnb's look tough but they're really not
Dabookerman
Member
wotter said:
Wait, I mean.. £500 already???
How is that possible.
So far for me, I got:
-MGS4
-MGS4 LE Pal
-MGS4 LE guide
-MGS4 Bluetooth headset
-3 Uniqlo MGs4 T-shirts
-2 Stealth camo editions of the MGS 20th UDF figures (dunno if they count)
-MGS4 Soundtrack
-MGS saga
Can't think of anything else
I still need to get:
Medicom Old Snake
Medicom Raiden
all 5 UDF figures
Japanese LE
Charger, perhaps.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I was just listening to the OST for Metal Gear Solid 1(Which is awesome) and I never realized
how distinctly different a lot of it sounds from the other games. Certain songs particulary VR TRAINING
sound like the kind of thing you would hear in a Final Fantasy game.
how distinctly different a lot of it sounds from the other games. Certain songs particulary VR TRAINING
sound like the kind of thing you would hear in a Final Fantasy game.
dabookerman said:
UK LE
UK SE(Zavvi launch night for the signed cover)
JPN LE
MGS4 bluetooth
UK Guide
US LE Guide
Famitisu magazine for the posters
Kubrick MGS4 set
MGS VR missions
MGS2 Substance
MGS art book
MGS2 art book
MGS2 Famitsu guide
MGS4 20th anniversary figures
MGS4 OST 2cd
MGS 20th anniversary music collection CD
MGS4 Hori charger stand.
ZOE 1 & 2.(not really MGS I suppose, but the whole MGS4 hype made me buy it :O)
3 uniqlo shirts I got too.
add inflated ebay prices and shipping and I'm near stupid amounts of money.
JasoNsider said:
You don't think Kojima deciding to make Snake old was a risk? What about completely breaking the formula of the series and taking you all around the world as opposed to simply staying in one location? And MGS3 really never took any risks. If you think it did, could you list some examples? The only thing I could see was Kojima dumbing down the plot to appeal more to the casual gamer and shut out the hardcore fans who drooled over MGS2.
disappeared
Banned
guys, getting baked and playing MGS4 is awesome. Act 4 is crazy. anyways, my mind got racing and I jotted down some theories in my inebriated state. enjoy...
SPOILERS
-when Otacon says Snake's memory is going, he's also kind of poking fun at the player's memory. Snake retorts afterwards saying "yeh well i just remembered it." He's like a crotchety old man.
-the return to shadow Moses is a sort of "coup de grace" for snake. Shadow Moses being his debut for the seris and the end of it. Full circle.
If Snake avoids the beauty form in the white room for 3 mins. They die - a LETHAL death. This could maybe mean that the beauties die of "grief" in that not even Snake would put them out of the misery. (Drebin says "cleansed" in a codec conversation). The beauties were bred for battle thus they want SNAKE the Legendary Soldier to kill them.
-the mini-gekko are the comedic relief. When Snake throws a magazine all of them in the vicinity will flock to it - something the player wishes ALL enemies would do.
SPOILERS
-when Otacon says Snake's memory is going, he's also kind of poking fun at the player's memory. Snake retorts afterwards saying "yeh well i just remembered it." He's like a crotchety old man.
-the return to shadow Moses is a sort of "coup de grace" for snake. Shadow Moses being his debut for the seris and the end of it. Full circle.
If Snake avoids the beauty form in the white room for 3 mins. They die - a LETHAL death. This could maybe mean that the beauties die of "grief" in that not even Snake would put them out of the misery. (Drebin says "cleansed" in a codec conversation). The beauties were bred for battle thus they want SNAKE the Legendary Soldier to kill them.
-the mini-gekko are the comedic relief. When Snake throws a magazine all of them in the vicinity will flock to it - something the player wishes ALL enemies would do.
dermannmitdemcolt said:
feels so fake though,
instead of killing him, he basically said "he's not dead, you made it out of the game alive, be proud. But he's still gonna die, just off screen so you don't feel so bad about it... and he can come back in mgsx with an equally lame plot twist.
and I really do agree with a your list, jason. I was actually slightly upset after completing the game, because I had hoped, with all the ranting and raving going around at that time, the ending would be satisfying. :\
Firewire said:I can't kill the Octopus bitch! I have no bullets in my machine guns, I only have the stun gun and a pistol and they seem to do nothing! Do I have to visit Drebin for some fire power? What weapon would you guys recommend and is there a good strategy to take her out?
Sorry for the lame questions but I only get the time to play the game once a week if I get a couple of hours to do so
I'd recommend picking up weapons and ammo your enemies drop in the future and search bodies, but for now I'd concentrate on aiming for the head (but below the metal armor). Pick up some ammo from Drebin. The best way to kill her tends to be by hitting her with something powerful then going for cover, then jumping out and tagging her. Efficiency helps a lot. A rapid fire Rambo approach just wastes bullets, as she'll start to block most of them. Explosives aren't terribly useful against her. Try a nice shotgun blast up close then cover behind a wall for a few moments before attacking again. A shotgun is handy because it can actually knock her down and maybe land an extra shot. The most effective weapons against her are weapons you don't have, so try being more efficient with headshots with your M4 in controlled bursts or pick up a shotgun of some sort if you don't already have one. If she rolls into a ball, climb onto something and don't get hit by that. Dive away from those floating explosives.Use night vision to keep track of her when she hides and hit her with your best shot when she's hiding rather than attacking.
atomico said:The resistance guy has a different Snatcher track, Bio Hazard.
Neo Kobe is supposedly on one of the PMCs just outside the park, (says the interweb).
Haven't had a chance to confirm that one. I had just finished act 3 when I read about it, and I sure as hell wasn't gonna replayjust to get itthe bike chase
You are right. There are two tracks indeed. One on the Resistance guy and one on a PMC guard. Official guide says so. Doesn't specify which PMC tho.
Steiner_Zi
Member
I can't understand all these suicide whores. You may as well commit suicide without reason whenever you want. Just leave Snake out of it. He deserves a few months of peace before he dies.
Brobzoid said:
You guys just can't be satisfied with Snake having a few months of peace in which he isn't being shot, stabbed, electrocuted, beaten, or microwaved, can you? This guy deserves a bit of happiness and peace for a change. He only has a few months to live. Let him have a few moments to spend with people he cares about and enjoy his final days.
Steiner_Zi
Member
sonicmj1 said:
Didn't you get that the old FoxDIE which was the problem was having his ass kicked by the new one? The latter will start to mutate as well after a while but Snake will long be dead by then. That's what BB told him and that's why there was no reason for him to kill himself anymore.
Steiner_Zi said:
But if he had just killed himself before BB showed up, then that ending and the dumb 'new Foxdie kills old Foxdie' explanation never would have happened. It was entirely justified at the time he was doing it.
Naturally, after Big Boss arrives and explains stuff, there's no point in him killing himself anymore.
Naturally, after Big Boss arrives and explains stuff, there's no point in him killing himself anymore.
sonicmj1 said:
I don't see why everyone is saying that it's so stupid. Just because the ending wasn't what you expected, it must be stupid I guess. It actually makes perfect sense. The MGS series has always been about misdirection. Why should MGS4 have been any different? There's still not going to be any happy ending for Snake. He has only some months, maybe a year at most left to live. What the hell is wrong with letting him live the last days of his life not fighting/risking his life? That's all the guy has ever been doing.
I would have been absolutely disappointed if the game ended with the screen shifting above and fading out as you hear a gun shot. When the first credits started rolling, I felt completely empty. Having that kind of feeling like, "Wtf? It can't just end like that."
I would have been absolutely disappointed if the game ended with the screen shifting above and fading out as you hear a gun shot. When the first credits started rolling, I felt completely empty. Having that kind of feeling like, "Wtf? It can't just end like that."
AKS said:
if he was indeed a real human being and this was his story, yes I would like for him to have that. but seeing as this is a fictional story and Kojima is trying to tell a story, he severely lessens the staying power of that story by watering down important events such as
his death, making it implied by merely having a character say "you gon die sometime later off screen" isn't really all that concrete and he can retcon that shit any time he wants, and it makes it seem like Kojima is trying to get several extremely different ends to this game at once: killing off Snake, while still having him alive and well at the end of the game, and talking about all the rainbows he's gonna see and all the traveling he'll do... But then again my retcon point(snake returning in a later game) is all built on the fact that I would see that as a huge cop-out. But if people really didn't have a problem with big boss coming back after how act 3 ended (which I have a huge problem with), I think you don't share my view.
I'm not saying you can't/shouldn't enjoy it, just that I don't and why.
SamuraiX- said:
It's not because it wasn't what I expected.
In fact, considering the marketing materials, and Kojima's history, it would have been unexpected if he had done it, because he never tends to be that obvious. It's because it makes no sense.
The end, the very last cutscene, throws a ton of twists out there that aren't even remotely hinted at earlier (even MGS2's twisted labyrinth of a story isn't as random). Surprise! The new Foxdie stops the old Foxdie! Surprise! It killed Eva, Ocelot, and Big Boss! Surprise! Ocelot was faking all along! Only Ocelot's machinations were even remotely foreshadowed, and that was only in the second-to-last scene.
Plenty of MGS games have had misdirections and twists at the end. However, this completely reverses the emotional arc of the story at the VERY END of the game. It really doesn't feel right.
The end, the very last cutscene, throws a ton of twists out there that aren't even remotely hinted at earlier (even MGS2's twisted labyrinth of a story isn't as random). Surprise! The new Foxdie stops the old Foxdie! Surprise! It killed Eva, Ocelot, and Big Boss! Surprise! Ocelot was faking all along! Only Ocelot's machinations were even remotely foreshadowed, and that was only in the second-to-last scene.
Plenty of MGS games have had misdirections and twists at the end. However, this completely reverses the emotional arc of the story at the VERY END of the game. It really doesn't feel right.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
AKS said:
No, my only problem is
Big Boss being back all healthy for nothing, and Ocelot having been an actor all along. Both are ridiculous and smell of late twist for the sake of making a prequel, especially the Big Boss revival part, but in the end both are related.Don't try to simplify things by saying people who are disappointed with the ending just wanted Snake to shoot himself. The whole Ocelot act thing puts a ridiculous spin on all past MGS games.
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