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Metal Gear Solid 4 |OT| No Place to Hide, No Time for a Legend to FoxDie

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gantz85 said:
I do know MGS4 was disappointing mainly because it should have been ALL ABOUT SNAKE. I essentially do not really care about Raiden, or Campbell, and most certainly not about Meryl and Johnny fucking Sasaki's marriage. Ending the game with a one hour babble explaining the story was the biggest mistake they could ever make.


Ugh.

You were doing so well up until this point. You don't have to like what Kojima has done with the story, but saying "IT SHOULD'VE BEEN LIKE THIS..." makes you sound like one those clods at MGS.org who take the series far too seriously.
 

STG

Member
if I understand that Famitsu article correctly, there are two new Passwords for the EXTRAS menu

jmsotsynrn - 17 type handguns (weapon)
aottrykmyn - Alutile (clothes)

have not tried them yet
 
Haven't been following this thread but thought I would drop in to say I'm pretty disappointed with MGS4. I'm currently on Act 3 and I'm not liking it much. I'm a big fan of the previous games but to be honest MGS4 even from a technical point seems like a 'HD' version of the PS2 games. The load times kill it imo. Take the chase scenes at the end of Act 2 and near the start of Act 3. 30 seconds of gameplay and then 10 second loading screen over and over again. The PS3 has a HD but they don't appear to be using it except for installs between Acts.

Compare all this to Uncharted which runs at 720p has high res textures and ZERO LOAD TIMES. Also the section at the start of Act 3 where you follow someone is 1 boring and 2 looks like a PS2 game. There I said it.

Please note that I finishing Halo 3 for the first time I thought it was disappointing but I now love it. I just say that because maybe my opinion of MGS4 will change on a second play through.
 
SMZC said:
Ironically, the best chapter (from a gameplay standpoint) by far is the one that tries to be like MGS3.

With that said, I never wanted MGS4 to be like MGS3. In fact, MGS3 was a disappointment to me because it wasn't as great as MGS2, but at least MGS3 had its own charm. MGS4 has nothing except some really great gameplay during the first two acts. After that, everything that made the gameplay so brilliant is gone, and the horrible storyline kicks in.

Oh crap. I'm on Act 3 and I didn't think much of Act 1 and 2. It goes downhill?
 

NeoUltima

Member
Bearillusion said:
Oh crap. I'm on Act 3 and I didn't think much of Act 1 and 2. It goes downhill?
Well...*Gameplay Spoiler*
There is no more of the "sneaking through a battlefield" stuff after Act II
which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
 

NeoUltima

Member
-viper- said:
I'm in Act 4. WHERE DO I FIND MY CHAFF GRENADES for my no kills no alerts game?
Only ones I know of are the ....
ones on the helipad near the begining.
You can still get by with only 1 chaff if you have at least that. You use it in the
old boiler room, the place after the Wolf battle(I'm sure it's possible to get by the room without the chaff, but I could never do it)
And
You can kill Gekko and Scarabs...they don't count as kills
 

gantz85

Banned
Bearillusion said:
Haven't been following this thread but thought I would drop in to say I'm pretty disappointed with MGS4. I'm currently on Act 3 and I'm not liking it much. I'm a big fan of the previous games but to be honest MGS4 even from a technical point seems like a 'HD' version of the PS2 games.
Please note that I finishing Halo 3 for the first time I thought it was disappointing but I now love it. I just say that because maybe my opinion of MGS4 will change on a second play through.

Well, a similar criticism has been levelled against Halo 3 so you're in familiar territory.
 

-viper-

Banned
NeoUltima said:
Only ones I know of are the ....
ones on the helipad near the begining.
You can still get by with only 1 chaff if you have at least that. You use it in the
old boiler room, the place after the Wolf battle(I'm sure it's possible to get by the room without the chaff, but I could never do it)
And
You can kill Gekko and Scarabs...they don't count as kills
Whenever I shoot the scarabs, more and more come.

Seems pointless trying to kill them.
 

gbovo

Member
Does anyone know the name of the music that plays when Snake enters the big warehouse (with the mini Geckos) at Shadow Moses?
 

Fady K

Member
2 months have passed, and as I look back and think of MGS4, im much, MUCH happier than when I looked back and thought of MGS2.

I wish the 5th act was longer, more sneaking throughout the latter acts, and more sadness in the game, otherwise, this game was a dream come true for me as an MGS fan.

The one thing that blew me away in another MGS game more than this one is the DAMN DEPRESSING MGS3 ending.
 

oatmeal

Banned
I bought this game on launch, and haven't finished it yet. I'm at the beginning of Act 5, with no end in sight. I haven't touched it in forever after a few frustrating attempts at that level.

Too bad :(
 
I think what make MGS4 amazing and above all those other games is the fact that you think Snake is going to die at the end. You play the whole game thinking its his end, his last mission so you know that you wont have a chance to go through any new experience with Snake ever again.

Just based on that it makes you love the game so much more regardless of the gameplay, I mean if you didnt know Snake was gonna die would Act 4 have had the impact it did? Or even the hallway scene in Act 5? If we didn't expect him to die those moments would not have any impact because just like every other game you know the hero will survive.

That is why MGS4 is a game for the fans because, those are the people attached to Snake and it will not have even a similar impact on anyone else. I think the whole MGS2 type twist in this game is the fact that Snake survives and yo go holy shit because since the day this game was announced you were expecting Snake to die.

Its an experience that can never be recreated again because, but that first play through will never be matched by any other game.
 

kaizoku

I'm not as deluded as I make myself out to be
just started the game, not read the thread but just wanted to say that I'm having a really really hard time deciding how I want to play the game. >_<

in previous games the platinum goal was to get through with no alerts and no kills, but this time its so much more complex. you get rewards for killing people this time!

looking at all the emblems etc I think multiple playthroughs are a must. I wonder how hard it would be to go through without any alerts, seemed impossible so far, had loads of alerts and backtracking to hide or knocking people unconscious so far.

awesome game though, really enjoying the atmosphere and the gameplay.
 

Dunk#7

Member
gantz85 said:
DO NOT READ THIS POST UNTIL YOU'VE COMPLETED THE GAME!
DO NOT READ THIS POST UNTIL YOU'VE COMPLETED THE GAME!


It has been about 2 months since my completing of MGS4, and with the time away from it to think and the opportunity to talk to people about it I'm ready for more conversation. Hopefully alot more posters come back in and post their own post-mortems as well.

At the end of the day I think Metal Gear Solid 4 as a standalone game and as a part of the series is a disappointment despite some outstanding achievements. For me, the burden of the flaws of MGS4 lies squarely on Kojima, primarily because MGS4 lacks balance, cohesion and direction. We have heard reviewers call for an "editor", but Kojima himself as director would have a major role to play in editing alongside collaborators.


(1) MGS4 and Solid Snake It seems like the game's direction was about telling the final chapter of Solid Snake, and some of this was done quite well in his constant struggle with accelerated aging and some conversations with Merly like the initial meeting and the conversation at the European security checkpoint where she emphasises that he is a legend and hero, but is now old. That scene tries to build up a mythology of Solid Snake the legendary soldier but the effort as a theme is not sustained enough throughout the game, and it's just a symptom of its general schizophrenia.

The final extra-epilogue of the game could have been ALL about Solid Snake but instead was an hour long babbling by Naked Snake/Big Boss about nano-tech but mostly about him, Zero and blah blah blah. The progression was already poor enough when Snake failed to shoot himself, which seems out-of-character from the Snake we know and this was all the more jarring when throughout the game we never saw Snake's struggle with death -- only his struggle with aging. I really wasn't interested in Big Boss' ramble; the explanations should all have been done prior so as to leave the final epilogue a true dedication to Snake and the conclusion of his legend. Instead it ended up muddled and exhausting.


(2) Gameplay Balance & Design. The cutscenes were overwhelming despite their stunning entertainment value, and there are puzzling problems which should not have happened. There are times when there is a mere few minutes or even seconds of gameplay before another extended cutscene and those seconds seem more like sorry reminders that it is still a game you're playing. All this shit should have been sorted out by Kojipro and especially Kojima -- sure, this is MGS4 and you want to make sure it's a fitting end but there really should have been alot more control and direction of the scenes. It should never have grown beyond their initial plans of less-cutscenes-more-gameplay.

They could have and should have expended more of their efforts on the gameplay rather than the cutscenes. I do agree that the core gameplay mechanics are the best in the series -- the shooting is exhilarating and satisfying, the stealth has moved forward with Octocamo and a remote option in MK II&III, but the gameplay situations are sometimes poor. The first Act has some amazing components to it with the huge levels and multiple options you can take, but the scripted nature limits it. Act II, III, IV and V all seem to have gameplay that isn't as richly realized as it should have been. No one was stalking you in Act II and the gameplay situation wasn't as richly varied as it could have been -- what about vertically climbing hills and crawling your way through water passages? Act III's European stalking affair only had two obstacles in situated guards and one patrolling van, and the motorcycle chase had way too much loading in-between for its own good. It was very bland. Act IV's ridiculous story arc aside, the Metal Gear Ray gameplay was WAYYYY too underutilized. It is a crowning technical achievement, looked amazing and gave you a badass King Kong feeling that should have been milked and juiced for all its worth. Meh. Act V was low on gameplay content.

The glorious bosses in MGS3 also led to heightened expectations in MGS4 but they weren't quite up to par. You also weren't quite as attached to them as the previous MGSes which made it disappointing when you finished them off.. sure they're hot chicks, but you didn't know anything or care about them when you finished the deed. Drebin gave you an after-story but this is a basic fault in story-telling.. you want to build up the characters before the confrontation, and not fill in after it. It made the fights feel very CLINICAL, and very little felt at stake. This is different from fighting with The End, who was a legendary sniper on his last breath, or Sniper Wolf, an old colleague of Snake and Otacon's obsession. Simply poor.



I do think that Kojima is primarily responsible for these faults. The story could have been built and told so much more concisely and cohesively, with a focus on thematic motifs and buildups with climaxes and resolutions but so many of it were passing remarks or moments that never had any significant depth or came to any significant fruition. The worst problem was that I never felt that Snake was fully fleshed out.. the struggle with age and his pride was done alright, and as a genetic soldier maybe we couldn't have asked to see Snake being all sensitive and listing his favorite books-I-cry-to but there simply weren't any significant humanistic moments like a struggle with his decision to end himself, or a sense of hope for life.. I don't even remember him laughing or smiling throughout the game; I don't expect that, but I expected more than the poor attempt at characterization and a final tribute to a retiring legend.

MGS4 smells of missed opportunities for me. ACT I's rebellion vs PMC dynamic was shallow and the rebels were never fleshed out as people or as a force of culture, will, or anything else. They were just tools for you to manipulate and as a result are extremely forgettable. None of the rebels were story-involved NPCs and this meant that you could never put a face or character to the group... hearing their cheers when you clear a map of PMCs meant NOTHING to me except that the map was clear of PMCs. When you exit the warzone and move into Act III, the rebels are completely forgotten.. what could have been a rich source of thematic and characteristic material was squandered.

My two favorite story-related moments of MGS4 was finding the teddy bear at the port of the ship while using the MK II in the first cutscene... it was a subtle clue to Sunny's character and also posed question -- What is the teddy bear doing here? Did she put it here by mistake or did Otacon do it out of dumbness? Is Sunny looking for it? Can I take it to her? Just a simple teddy bear on the floor generated alot more depth and complexity in reflection and thought than so many other elements and scenes and themes in the game. Another was Raiden's kid's expression and reaction. Really well animated.



At the end of the day I'm not sure how to rank MGS4 against the other MGS games or against other games in general. This is because I'm not quite sure what the measuring criteria should be... entertainment? Core mechanical gameplay? Satisfaction factor? Tribute factor? Wow moments? Production value? Contribution to the mythology? Any different balance of these different factors will tip the balance but I do know MGS4 was disappointing mainly because it should have been ALL ABOUT SNAKE. I essentially do not really care about Raiden, or Campbell, and most certainly not about Meryl and Johnny fucking Sasaki's marriage. Ending the game with a one hour babble explaining the story was the biggest mistake they could ever make.

I don't think there's much Kojipro can reasonably do to make amends; addressing my qualm would require Kojima to take responsibility and really discipline himself in editing. And that would consequently result in a LOT of work required to be done. I think Kojima has said that there wouldn't be an MGS4: XXX coming out.. that may be the best thing to happen, because if there were, there would be a fuckload to do :lol


Here's to hearing your opinion, and also hearing from Kojipro soon. We've not heard ANYTHING from Kojima Productions since MGS4's release, and that is strange. I guess a two month break after a 4 year production is reasonable; I can't wait till they get back and a two-way dialogue between players and development team opens up. I think there is a serious need for that.


I agree that there could have been some alterations to the game that would have closed the series out better for me. But all in all this is a great game regardless of the minute details that we all nitpick on.

Just the fact that you can write that much about the story says a lot. How many other games can you discuss to the length that you can for MGS4? (excluding others in the series) Very few games reach the storytelling height that MGS4 and the previous entries in the series have obtained. I think we are all looking too much at the details and not seeing the game as a whole. It has good and bad points, but overall it is a great ending to a great series.

Now let the series die please!!! Do not come back like Michael Jordan and ruin your reputation. Let's see what else Kojima has up his sleeve.
 

btkadams

Member
just completed act 3

HOLY SHIIIIIIT!!! SHADOW MOSES!!!
this game is incredible! the first 3 solid games, it would take a few hours before things would really get anywhere in terms of story or even anything that interesting, this game just keeps throwing it at you right from the start. amazing game. amazing series!!! i really look forward to the next game kojima and his team make, even the rpg they were thinking of making. is neogaf a good place for me to find any info their next game? or is there a specific site everyone goes to first.
 

Nemo

Will Eat Your Children
So playing today again I found out by accident you can peek up while you're in the dumpster by moving the sixaxis up. That's awesome!

Is there a list somewhere of this kind of stuff?
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Teetris said:
So playing today again I found out by accident you can peek up while you're in the dumpster by moving the sixaxis up. That's awesome!

Is there a list somewhere of this kind of stuff?
It's probably all in the game manual somewhere.
 

gantz85

Banned
Dunk#7 said:
Just the fact that you can write that much about the story says a lot. How many other games can you discuss to the length that you can for MGS4? (excluding others in the series) Very few games reach the storytelling height that MGS4 and the previous entries in the series have obtained. I think we are all looking too much at the details and not seeing the game as a whole. It has good and bad points, but overall it is a great ending to a great series.

Now let the series die please!!! Do not come back like Michael Jordan and ruin your reputation. Let's see what else Kojima has up his sleeve.

I don't disagree; I think MGS4's ambitiousness is one of its virtues. There is plenty to talk about in this game, and there is certainly more possible (interesting) conversation about its script, dialogue and characters than there is for a game like Gears of War. Obviously this is no indicator of quality.

I still want to hear from Kojipro.
 

DSN2K

Member
just completed it, great ride, very impressed...cant wait to see where the series and story goes cause it aint gonna stop no way will Konami just drop Metal Gear.
 

h3ro

Member
I'm guessing KojiPro are still on their well deserved vacations, but I hope when they get back they put up a Trophy Patch for this game. They've been supporting it steadily since launch (with DLC camo, weapons via password and MGO DLC) so its definitely more feasible for this game to get patched (only two+ months out from launch) than a game that was available last year...

Ryan?

Ryan?!!?!

RYAAAAAAN??!?
 

gantz85

Banned
h3ro said:
I'm guessing KojiPro are still on their well deserved vacations, but I hope when they get back they put up a Trophy Patch for this game. They've been supporting it steadily since launch (with DLC camo, weapons via password and MGO DLC) so its definitely more feasible for this game to get patched (only two+ months out from launch) than a game that was available last year...

Ryan?

Ryan?!!?!

RYAAAAAAN??!?

A two month vacation is absolutely massive though :lol

I would freak out if a substantial DLC or unlock was to come.
 
gantz85 said:
A two month vacation is absolutely massive though :lol

I would freak out if a substantial DLC or unlock was to come.
This is the first game I would willingly and happily buy DLC. My wallet is open Kojima, your move.
 

masterkajo

Member
My copy is on its way to Europe (ordered an US LE) and some friend of mine told me that all blue ray disc are region locked. So I wanted to ask if I will be able to watch the bonus blue ray.

In addition, he said I won't be able to play MGO. Is that true?
 

Dizzle24

Member
Picked this up about a month ago... i did not expect this game to be as EPIC as it is.

I was stunned with the production value alone; the cut-scenes and story were amazing.
This is one of my all-time favorite games, taking only second place to the first Devil May Cry game.

I have no words to describe how I feel after playing through the game and kind of feeling attached to the characters.

all I can say is
Raiden is a bad ass motherfucker.

I can't wait to play through again.
 

btkadams

Member
-COOLIO- said:
metal gear solid 4 is the greatest game of all time
QFT, i just finished it today. played mgs1,2,3,4 all in succession for the first time ever. amazing games. gonna go back and play 1 and 4 ASAP. i hope its not another 4 years before a new metal gear/kojima game.
 

neight

Banned
Great game although MGS3 is still the top of the series. I was disappointed interrogations in CQC were gone. MGS4 showers you with a weapons mechanic which I thought was weird for a game that emphasizes stealth. And the bosses weren't as inventive as with MGS3. The presentation in MGS4 is of course top notch. And the story is the best of the series, not as much cheese as the other games(a notable exception being Naomi's death scene which was hilarious).
 

Tenbatsu

Member
neight said:
Great game although MGS3 is still the top of the series. I was disappointed interrogations in CQC were gone. MGS4 showers you with a weapons mechanic which I thought was weird for a game that emphasizes stealth. And the bosses weren't as inventive as with MGS3. The presentation in MGS4 is of course top notch. And the story is the best of the series, not as much cheese as the other games(a notable exception being Naomi's death scene which was hilarious).
You can choose not to use them, its just a way of opening up the gameplay options.
 

neight

Banned
Obviously. But it's still weird to me. That's like having optional weapons in a Mario game that lets you turn Mario into a Ratchet & Clank type game.
 

Tenbatsu

Member
neight said:
Obviously. But it's still weird to me. That's like having optional weapons in a Mario game that lets you turn Mario into a Ratchet & Clank type game.
But at least you cant buy ammo for the most important weapon:D
 

Orlics

Member
I'm probably going to be the last person to have ever accomplished this but...

118hmc2.jpg


I'm never doing that shit again.
 

CoG

Member
So I never played a MGS game before so playing 1 & 4 simultaneously. Really cool is
I am at the exact same spot in both games (just past the disc swap)
. So glad I played 1 before playing 4.
 

Ploid 3.0

Member
Some people forget that MGS1 had a wide selection of none stealth weapons also. Loud semi automatic guns, stinger missiles, radio controlled rocket propelled grenades with a camera on it, etc. In the VR missions expansion they even had tasks on each of these weapons that weren't exactly stealthy applications at all.

Choose your weapon for how you want to play. That's how I always viewed MGS.
 
Orlics said:
I'm probably going to be the last person to have ever accomplished this but...

I'm never doing that shit again.
Nope, I haven't yet. I'm awaiting confirmation of whether there will or won't be trophies before I do my run so I won't have to do it twice in case trophies come in.
 

neight

Banned
Ploid 3.0 said:
Some people forget that MGS1 had a wide selection of none stealth weapons also. Loud semi automatic guns, stinger missiles, radio controlled rocket propelled grenades with a camera on it, etc. In the VR missions expansion they even had tasks on each of these weapons that weren't exactly stealthy applications at all.

Choose your weapon for how you want to play. That's how I always viewed MGS.
No I didn't forget the amount of weapons in the previous games. MGS4 did take it to another level. It's not just the amount of weapons but being able to buy more weapons/ammo whenever you want.
 

ilikeme

Member
I hate Otacon so much!!!!!!!!!

He's such a pussy!!!!!!!

He ruins so many scenes!!!!!

*sob* *whimper* *sob*

I love Raiden though!!!!

He's fun!!!!
 
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