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Metal Gear Solid 4 |OT| No Place to Hide, No Time for a Legend to FoxDie

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EekTheKat

Member
Blader5489 said:
Just finished the game yesterday, what a FUCKING AWESOME experience. Acts 4 and 5 were made of win, and the
post-credits ending
was :O.

I just have a few story questions, that I don't think were answered or at least clarified in the game:

1)
Why did Ocelot choose to mentally reprogram himself into thinking he was Liquid? I understand how he did, and that Liquid was never really possessing Ocelot in the first place, but I don't understand the purpose of Ocelot doing it in the first place.

2)
Big Boss said that EVA had rescued him from the Patriots and repaired his body using parts from Liquid and Solidus. But I thought BB wasn't freed until after the Patriots AI was wiped out? Which was long after EVA had already died. So am I missing something here? Timeline seems a bit screwy.

There might be more, but that's all I can think of right now. Anyway...GAME OF THE YEAR!! Can't wait for Metal Gear Raiden. :D


1. It was necessary to
fool the system, least as that's how they put it. It had to be a 100% convincing performance for it to work.

2.
Big Boss's mind was locked away by the Patriots, the recovery of his body was a part of the whole Raiden/Sunny side story.
 

jett

D-Member
oneHeero said:
How was everyones reaction when
you fought liquid on top of the boar @ the end. You know how it started with the theme music from MGS to MGs2 to MGS3..I shit my pants @ how good that part was

I thought two things "HOLY WOWSOME GRAPHICS" and "HOLY SHIT these are some god awful controls :/"
 

Blader

Member
EekTheKat said:
1. It was necessary to
fool the system, least as that's how they put it. It had to be a 100% convincing performance for it to work.

2.
Big Boss's mind was locked away by the Patriots, the recovery of his body was a part of the whole Raiden/Sunny side story.

1.
But that's what I don't understand, fool the system for what? What was the point of fooling the system?

2.
So EVA had both BB's body and Solidus' body? Why did she throw herself in that fire if she knew the body was Solidus?
 

dralla

Member
Blader5489 said:
2.
So EVA had both BB's body and Solidus' body? Why did she throw herself in that fire if she knew the body was Solidus?

that's what we call a giant plot hole, that whole part of the scene was just flat out dumb
 
oneHeero said:
How was everyones reaction when
you fought liquid on top of the boar @ the end. You know how it started with the theme music from MGS to MGs2 to MGS3..I shit my pants @ how good that part was

:O
 

Imm0rt4l

Member
Blader5489 said:
1.
But that's what I don't understand, fool the system for what? What was the point of fooling the system?

2.
So EVA had both BB's body and Solidus' body? Why did she throw herself in that fire if she knew the body was Solidus?

fact of the matter is she had to put on a performance and fool JD. We really have to stop looking at it as if she was trying to sacrifice herself, seeing as she probably knew she wouldn't be able to retrieve solidus body, but better to try and look convincing then not. Keep in mind that she didn't die because of the fire, but FOXDIE.

it's still stupid though.
 
dralla said:
that's what we call a giant plot hole, that whole part of the scene was just flat out dumb

Well,
if she knew about Foxdie (which she undoubtedly did) then she as good as threw herself on the fire just by meeting Snake. There's a whole host of plausible scenarios as to why she would kill herself in such a dramatic fashion. Besides, the ending was all the sweeter for it.

With all that said, I thought it quite absurd too. However, the absurdity is one of my favourite things about the series (actually it's more like the blend of absurdity and realism). I couldn't imagine getting all worked up about plot holes in Metal Gear. The message is what's important, not the minutiae of the fiction.
 

Blader

Member
Okay, so it just kind of clicked for me:
EVA and Raiden took BB's body from the Patriots, but put Solidus' body in the pyx (and threw herself into the fire; I know it was Foxdie, not the fire, that killed her) to convince everyone that the body was Solidus' and not BB's. And I guess the whole time, she had BB's body stashed away somewhere, but couldn't wake him up until JD was destroyed.

Ok, that makes sense. But I still don't get why
Ocelot hypnotized himself into being Liquid. Another poster said it was to fool the Patriots, but for what? I understand EVA's deception, but I don't get why Ocelot did what he did.
 
Finished the game last night and with all said and done I really enjoyed. So where does MGS go from here? Is there a thread for that discussion already?
 

ultron87

Member
oneHeero said:
How was everyones reaction when
you fought liquid on top of the boar @ the end. You know how it started with the theme music from MGS to MGs2 to MGS3..I shit my pants @ how good that part was

At first I was like
"Oh boy, the final boss is a shitty version of Tekken!". Then I got into the epicness of it and was satisfied. Then I thought back on it a few days later and realized what a terrible final boss that was compared to the awesomeness that was the fight with The Boss in MGS3
.
 

Ermac

Proudly debt free. If you need a couple bucks, just ask.
oneHeero said:
How was everyones reaction when
you fought liquid on top of the boar @ the end. You know how it started with the theme music from MGS to MGs2 to MGS3..I shit my pants @ how good that part was


I was like
HOLY SHT that was awesome after the MGS3 section ended because I thoguht it was over.


Then Snake got up one last time and I was like HOLY SHIT + FUCK YEAHHHHHH
 

Morts

Member
Thinking about the end of Act 3:
Why didn't Snake take some shots while Liquid was shooting people with his fingers after hijacking SOP? Shouldn't his weapons still have been working since they'd all been laundered by Drebin?
 
Blader5489 said:
Just finished the game yesterday, what a FUCKING AWESOME experience. Acts 4 and 5 were made of win, and the
post-credits ending
was :O.

I just have a few story questions, that I don't think were answered or at least clarified in the game:

1)
Why did Ocelot choose to mentally reprogram himself into thinking he was Liquid? I understand how he did, and that Liquid was never really possessing Ocelot in the first place, but I don't understand the purpose of Ocelot doing it in the first place.

2)
Big Boss said that EVA had rescued him from the Patriots and repaired his body using parts from Liquid and Solidus. But I thought BB wasn't freed until after the Patriots AI was wiped out? Which was long after EVA had already died. So am I missing something here? Timeline seems a bit screwy.

There might be more, but that's all I can think of right now. Anyway...GAME OF THE YEAR!! Can't wait for Metal Gear Raiden. :D
While it is true that Ocelot did not just act but also had the help of psychotherapy, hypnosis and nanomachines in order to behave in line with Liquid's persona, he preserved his inner conciousness. In fact, the official guide states it clearly:

<< Ultimately, the story of Metal Gear Solid 4 is the conclusion of a vast conspiracy through which Ocelot and EVA (with Naomi's help) exact their revenge on Major Zero, and open the doors of redemption for themselves. We should be under no illusions as to the true role of Ocelot from the very start. As Big Boss reveals, "In order to fool the system, Ocelot used nanomachines and psychotherapy to transplant Liquid's personality into his own mind. He used hypnotic suggestion to turn himself into a mental doppelganger of Liquid." Foreseeing every step that Snake would make, every likely outcome, Ocelot allows his apparent adversary to complete the most integral parts of his plot because he understands, fundamentally, that Snake is the tool of The Patriots and therefore above suspicion in their eyes -- whether he knows it or not. The evidence that underlines Snake's status as an unwitting agent of the Patriots' is abundantly clear. Drebin, of course, is a Patriot employee with a clear assignment to assist Snake whenever necessary; the same RAT PT 01 (an anagram of PATR10T) should leave no uncertainty as to the true benefactors behind Meryl's special forces team. Snake is the weapon wielded by the Patriots in the fight against Liquid Ocelot, and the new FOXDIE virus injected by Drebin a bullet with Ocelot's name on it.

Ocelot knows that the only way to bring down the Patriots is to infect the central AI, JD, with a virus. However, there are prequisites that must be met for his plan to work: one, that the virus code must be of a sufficiently high standard, and two, that he gave access to a system protected by an unprecendented degree of security.

Naomi creates a first draft of the virus, but is unable to complete it. Ocelot therefore consents to her apparent "escape" in order to deliver the code to Sunny, a child prodigy with a preternaturally instictive understanding of techonology, to finish Naomi's work. In her dying moments, only she understands the import of Sunny's message. "I cooked them right" is not a child's touching aknowledgement of earlier curlinary tips, but the confirmation that the powerful virus is complete. Her objects satisfied, Naomi coulf finally allow herself to die. Live Vamp, her grip on life was dependent on the artificial assistance of nanomachines; once this was removed, she --like Vamp-- exhales her last (suddenly visible) breaths in the cold Alaskan air before succumbing to the effects of the cancer within her.

As for how to deliver the virus into the heart of the Patriots' AI system, Ocelot knew that the only way to break through its security was to use a unique key: the genetic code and biometric data of Big Boss. In actual fact the body seized and then burned in Eastern Europe is not that of Big Boss, but Solidus -- the only one of the three brothers to be an exact clone.

The rest of the story is a series of deceptions designed to drive Snake ever onwards, and allay the suspicions of the Patriot AI systems. Ocelot, despite the presence of Liquid Snake within his consciousness, has no intention of using the rail gun retrieved from Metal Gear REX. Neither does he truly plan to become leader of the Patriots himself, despite his assertions to the contrary. Ocelot simply wishes for an end to The Patriots' control system, and leads Snake, their trusted yet unknowing tool, to become the agent of their ruin. For greater verisimilitude, at no point does Snake enjoy an easy ride: the sheer felocity of the forces ranged against him (soldiers, the Gekkos, the BB Corps, Vamp) underlines the apparent sincerity of Liquid Ocelot's desire to allay the legendary soldier. And yet Ocelot, significantly, fails to dispatch Snake when given several opportunities to do so, in a manner that clearly surpasses the traditional cliche of villainous arrogance.

Ocelot, then, is not a nefarious figure, a tyrant seeking endless power, but the mastermind behind a plan to break the authoritarian rule web that the Patriots were weaving over the world. From this perspective, Ocelot (even in his guise as the pitiless Liquid Ocelot) is as much a hero as Snake. Even his vicious rout of the forces brought by Meryl to capture him in Eastern Europe bears further examination. At the very moment that he froze military hardware throughout the world with an apparent nonchalant wave of his hand, didn't Ocelot effectively end all ongoing conflicts at once, becoming the main architect of peace and the man to end the war economy? Despite their mutual antagonism from the first time they met, Snake and Ocelot actually worked together to stop The Patriots' rule.

Only once the virus has been deployed does Ocelot reveal hints of his true self. There is an almost cathartic quality to the brutal unarmed combat that ensues between the two before Ocelot's life is extinguished by the FOXDIE that courses through Snake's veins. Ocelot's valediction confirms that he actually played Liquid's role all along: "I am Liquid's doppelganger."

The unforeseen variable in the story of MGS4, the protagonist that the Patriots completely neglected to acknowledge as a threat, is Sunny. It was her precocious genius that enabled the virus to consign The Patriots to history. As an additional, inspirational touch, she engineered it to destroy the AI routines that governed the world, and yet preserve the smooth running of infrastractures essential to modern civilization. By offering society a second chance, Sunny also gains a new beginning, this time "outside".

The symbol of this renewal, Meryl and Johny's wedding, is marked with several reconciliations: that of Meryl with her father Roy Cambell; that of Raiden with his wife and son, and ultimately with his life; that of Snake with his father, presumed long dead after Zanzibarland; and that of Big Boss with The Boss's legacy, which he finally understood.

Some, like EVA, Ocelot, Naomi and Big Boss (who deliberately breathes the FOXDIE virus exhaled by Snake) find redemption in death, both their own and in that of The Patriots' corrupted ideals. Others, such as Otacon, Meryl and Campbell, find redemption in life through their atonement for past mistakes. As for Snake, he finds himself poised between life and death, trapped between the past and the future, between Snake and David. There is, perhaps, a hint of a future, for the tired soldiers before the end credits roll. With the knowledge that the new FOXDIE virus has supplanted the one before it, Big Boss encourages Snake to start over, to embrace a new (albeit short) life as a fresh aura dawns. >>

The guide also clarifies the confusion on why EVA and Ocelot act as enemies in Act 3:
<< EVA died believing that Liquid Ocelot truly existed, as convinced as any other that her friend had become merely a vessel for Liquid's malign spirit. This was the true extent of the price that Ocelot had to pay in order to succeed: not even EVA could know the true scope of his plan. >>

EVA herself mentions that they were once allies with Ocelot but eventually she "lost" him. In Europe she knew that the body was Solidus which is why she is lying to both Snake, the Patriots' tool, and Ocelot who she thinks of as an enemy. She tries to convince everyone present in that scene that this is truly Big Boss's body so that no one will go after him.
In the ending, Big Boss says that Eva herself used body parts from Liquid and Solidus to repair his (Big Boss') body. Based on that, it's illogical to believe anything other than that Eva knew exactly what was going on, and that she knew that the body at the river was Solidus'. We learned in MGS3 that she was a graduate of one of the Philosophers' charm schools, so we know that she knew how to act and do what she wanted to get her goals accomplished. As for why she jumped in the fire, it seems extreme but you could say it was part of her act, she probably had decided to sacrifice herself for the ultimate end goal of ending the Patriots' reign, especially after her injury when she got knocked off the bike.

As to why Ocelot attacked Snake with the ship, wouldn't it be unnatural to command a giant ship, have your enemy right in front of you and just... leave? Ocelot knew that Raiden would come to Snake's rescue and used this to seem to try to kill Snake.

In a nutshell, Ocelot fooled the Patriots into thinking that he was the predictable and simple-minded Liquid, who they already have beaten once. If they knew that their enemy was Ocelot, who once presumed as their tool and so fully unpredictable, they'd never allowed Snake to deliver whatever virus by lowering their firewall in order for him to complete "their" mission. Even more so, I'd guess that they would've acted much earlier if they knew the real threat.
 

AmMortal

Banned
A few of the Innitial Reactions to this thread
#53
Holy shit here we go!
Pop On Arrival


#54
excitment rising.
BigBlackGamer


#55
ah, the thread's finally up *gets cozy*
-COOLIO-


#56
I think I speak for everyone when I say this is the best official thread ever.
Maggot9


#57
this has to be the greatest thread i have ever seen on gaf. bravo.
Bad_Boy


#58
This game is so epic that it needed a 39 post OP.

The hype is amazing.
Nightz






#61
Originally Posted by Deepblue:
Holy Crap. Excessive, but awesome.


#62
Here's to you, BruceLeeRoy.
MyEpitomeCliché


#63
Holy shit. This is it, this is what I've been waiting for METAL GEARUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
BlueTsunami


#64
OMG....

I didn't think the awesomeness of the NG2 OP could be beat, but I guess I was wrong....

OMG!
Killthee




#65
HOLY SHIT.

Truly the Game of the Forever. Best Thread Ever.
Kagari




#66
Game of the forever.

Official thread of the forever.

A fitting combination.
Stench

Awesome reactions:D
 

web01

Member
Bearillusion said:
Does blowing up the PMC tank thingy in Act I that causes the other side to leave you alone count as a kill?

No it doesnt count, just make sure to hit it with a RPG from the side or the back so that you dont also kill the 2 PMC soldiers standing beside it in the explosion.
 

Darkpen

Banned
You guys think we'll ever get some integeral podcast eps? :/

After MGS4 launched, on the Japan side of things, has there been any new hidechan radio eps, or even the hidechan radio thing they have for MGS4's download?
 
Started up MGS4 again tonight, in the second Act and I didn't realize there were two separate paths to the Vista Mansion. Pretty cool little discovery.
 

ice cream

Banned
Did they ever reveal what La le lu li la (or whatever the fuck it was) meant in the game? I finished it but never heard anything about it...
 

Nemesis_

Member
ice cream said:
Did they ever reveal what La le lu li la (or whatever the fuck it was) meant in the game? I finished it but never heard anything about it...
I haven't read up on the story for some time (I usually do just as a refresher) but I think it was a term that got past the "radar" of The Patriots and allowed people to talk about them without fear of being reprimanded.

La Li Lu Le Lo for the record =P It may also mean that each "La" segment represents
each of the patriot AIs
 
ice cream said:
Did they ever reveal what La le lu li la (or whatever the fuck it was) meant in the game? I finished it but never heard anything about it...
It was implied in a conversation between Snake an Merrile (sp?)
it means what you think it does
 

SRG01

Member
Nemesis556 said:
I haven't read up on the story for some time (I usually do just as a refresher) but I think it was a term that got past the "radar" of The Patriots and allowed people to talk about them without fear of being reprimanded.

La Li Lu Le Lo for the record =P It may also mean that each "La" segment represents
each of the patriot AIs

The code word is just a censor from the nanomachines to prevent anyone from saying "The Patriots".
 
I just don't get it. How do I get my new items in a second runthrough? I started a new game after the credits when I finished the game but that did not work?

Great game though! I watched MGS1 on youtube since I never played that one just for the story. But I did play and finish for the first time MGS2 & MGS3 before playing this one.

This series has really felt like a evolving series since I played through them one after another like this. Gameplay really felt filled with options in 4. So many ways you had learned through the series to take out the enemy and you could use them in 4.

Storywise I kinda liked 3 better but the story has never been a big strong point in MGS to me. Just plain weird for weirds sake I think. I really don't like the bodylanguage for some characters either... But I have a problem with peoples bodylanguage in HK film and the like also so...

But like I said, great great game. Loved the camosuit. I loved that you could collect patterns you like in it's memory. Checkboard snake is so cool :D
 

sensi97

Member
PuppetSlave said:
I just don't get it. How do I get my new items in a second runthrough? I started a new game after the credits when I finished the game but that did not work?
At the end (after credits) you save the game. Load this save to start a new game.
Oh and you get you items back after the MK II cutscene (and your weapons a bit later)
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
Load the Complete Save (The one with a Star in its description)
Choose difficulty level
Meet up with MK.II
 

BigBoss

Member
PuppetSlave said:
I just don't get it. How do I get my new items in a second runthrough? I started a new game after the credits when I finished the game but that did not work?

Load your game complete save file, you'll get your weapons when you meet up with Otacon's little robot.
 
PuppetSlave said:
I just don't get it. How do I get my new items in a second runthrough? I started a new game after the credits when I finished the game but that did not work?

It actually tells you at the end when you will get them back.
 

Rorsha

Member
SRG01 said:
The code word is just a censor from the nanomachines to prevent anyone from saying "The Patriots".

La Li Lu Le Lo comes from "Patrioto" in japanese language, when you pronounce vowels only.
 

Menaged

Member
HOLY SHIT!

Just finished act 4 and it was so so fun.
I was worried first by the complaints for the lack of gameplay, but I didn't notice it. I just had fun all the way through.

When I reached the helipad and "The Best is Yet to Come" has started playing I just stopped, and listened to all of it - it was so fitting. It was a joy to revisit Shadow Moses, and especialy ripping Ray apart with REX (I really liked counter attack it). The ending for the act was great. When Outer Haven emerged my jaw was on the floor.

I'm at the first zone of Act 5. Didn't start play, but I'm ready for some more awesome.

oh, one more thing about Snake:
I feel real bad for him whenever he coughs and aches. It was sad seeing him so helpless when Have approached him :(
 

Cartman86

Banned
dabookerman said:
I'm gonna go through this thread sometime in the future. I miss the hype :(

So very true. I wonder if Kojima Productions were to add trophies would we all go crazy for MGS4 again? I know I would.
 
Cartman86 said:
So very true. I wonder if Kojima Productions were to add trophies would we all go crazy for MGS4 again? I know I would.
I've been holding off playing it really in hopes that he would. I need to get all the emblems.
 

Cartman86

Banned
dabookerman said:
I've been holding off playing it really in hopes that he would. I need to get all the emblems.

I really regret playing 12 times through to get everything. Gonna lose all that data if they release trophies :(
 

Xun

Member
I only just completed it, and wow. What an amazing game.

I am however annoyed about one thing...

Spoiler Alert!

Sadly I accidently knew Big Boss would be in the game and that Snake lives (although I had guessed it) and that the body which burnt wasn't Big Boss's. I feel as if the game was kind of ruined because of this, especially since I wasn't like "OMG WTF?".

Also, am I the only one who thought Major Zero dying being incredibly sad? Nearly shed a tear. :(
 

Blader

Member
Xun said:
I only just completed it, and wow. What an amazing game.

I am however annoyed about one thing...

Spoiler Alert!

Sadly I accidently knew Big Boss would be in the game and that Snake lives (although I had guessed it) and that the body which burnt wasn't Big Boss's. I feel as if the game was kind of ruined because of this, especially since I wasn't like "OMG WTF?".

Also, am I the only one who thought Major Zero dying being incredibly sad? Nearly shed a tear. :(

I thought it was pretty sad too, especially with the
MGS3 scenes of Zero flashing on the screen as he died.
 

Catalix

And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Xun said:
I only just completed it, and wow. What an amazing game.

I am however annoyed about one thing...

Spoiler Alert!

Also, am I the only one who thought Major Zero dying being incredibly sad? Nearly shed a tear. :(

Nah, I feel you. It was pretty unsettling when Big Boss snuffed him out like that. Especially with all those MGS3 flashback images. We really were witnessing the end of a significant era.
 

Muffdraul

Member
Rorsha said:
La Li Lu Le Lo comes from "Patrioto" in japanese language, when you pronounce vowels only.

The first time they ever said "Patrioto" in was Akio Otsuko saying "Ganzu obu za Patrioto" in one of the MGS4 trailers. Before that, it was always in Japanese, &#24859;&#22269;&#32773;&#36948; "aikokshyo" or something like that. So... that's news to me. =P
 
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