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Metal Gear Solid 4 |OT| No Place to Hide, No Time for a Legend to FoxDie
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
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:lolBigBoss said:
MGS4's story being a clusterfuck is down to the whole plot being weighed down by the fiction of the first three games. You can't single out one game and just prey on it.
The fact that MGS4 was smothered with MGS3's plot elements, and the fact that he tied these into MGS4 (
SIGINT as DARPA Chief? PUH-LEEZE! Ocelot being a "good guy" all along? Fuck off!
The fact of the matter is that MGS2 was purposefully ambiguous. MGS3 attempted to answer many of these questions in on the sidelines (like "Who are the Patriots?" and "What [most likely] happened to Olga's child?") but that wasn't enough. The fans called for direct answers, and so Kojima was in a tight spot. He had to answer MGS2's questions, and iron out all the contradictions he'd created with MGS3. Not easy.
In my opinion, MGS4 shouldn't have been so ultimately conclusive. You can conclude Solid Snake's story without having to answer every single fucking question in such a ham-fisted way. By attempting to do so, Kojima compromised the plot of MGS4 from the very beginning. The fact that he makes each game's plot up as he goes along should've been an early warning sign to him that he should've just left things as they are, and made MGS4 its own semi-independent thread.
Then it is good to die alongside the rest of you.
Spending money on all 4 games were the best decisions in gaming I have ever made and I have recieved an inestimable amount of value back from all 4.
None of the games have crappy plots because I took them for the pieces of fiction they are (NANOMACHINES, FLYING PSYCHICS AND GIANT ROBOT TANKS DON'T FUCKING EXIST PEOPLE!!!!!!).
I had no problem with the story taking itself seriously because the whole world they made is fictious. Just because they took some true to life history, military terms and treaties doesn't mean it was meant to be based in reality. It just fleshes out their own world with pieces of their own.
Complaining about the story is like saying The Flintstones is a mockery of history. ZOMG DINOSAURS CAME 65 MILLION YEARS BEFORE HUMANS!
If it took you until MGS4 to realize that, not only is Metal Gear the wrong series for you, I worry about your ability to connect things in anything that requires problem solving....
Spending money on all 4 games were the best decisions in gaming I have ever made and I have recieved an inestimable amount of value back from all 4.
None of the games have crappy plots because I took them for the pieces of fiction they are (NANOMACHINES, FLYING PSYCHICS AND GIANT ROBOT TANKS DON'T FUCKING EXIST PEOPLE!!!!!!).
I had no problem with the story taking itself seriously because the whole world they made is fictious. Just because they took some true to life history, military terms and treaties doesn't mean it was meant to be based in reality. It just fleshes out their own world with pieces of their own.
Complaining about the story is like saying The Flintstones is a mockery of history. ZOMG DINOSAURS CAME 65 MILLION YEARS BEFORE HUMANS!
Omikaru said:
If it took you until MGS4 to realize that, not only is Metal Gear the wrong series for you, I worry about your ability to connect things in anything that requires problem solving....
Zeouterlimits
Member
You're entitled to your opinion dude, no-one (not me) is saying that you're less of a fan.DrPirate said:I guess I'm a bad Metal Gear fan by enjoying and liking and being more impressed with MGS4 in every single way than the other 3.
Blasphemy I suppose
If anything I feel like I'm on the outside looking in, a huge MGS fan, but one sorely disappointed by 4.
To each their own ^_^
Zeouterlimits said:
I just don't understand how a Metal Gear fan can be disappointed by MGS4.
I just can't possibly conceive it in any way possible. Like.....in order to understand this, from my point of view, if you like Metal Gear, even just a little, you can't possible, not in this, or any other universe, be let down by MGS4.
So yeah, I don't get this. It's like being pissed off when your offered food while starving.
Edit: And I read the reasoning, and the reason's don't make any sense. In my mind, they border the realms of just being made up.
I AM a MGS fanboy (fanbot) whatever the stupid words are nowadays, I won't deny it. I can't deny how the story and gameplay just click with me. But I dunno. It sucks to hear people that are apparantly just like me, were dismayed.
I wish you all enjoyed the game as much as I did, and I only say that in everyone's best interest. If it were up to me, I'd have my memory of the game erased so I can enjoy it as much as the first time I played it.
Chinner said:
Not entirely: I know his point is that, Kojima couldn't concieve of his own plot, because he was tied to the task of tieing up every loose end and inconsistency in the entire series, across 5 games that were made up on the fly.
But this is was made the game so impressive for me.
I was pointing that out because it was fairly obvious.
Graphics Horse
Member
Once MGS1 introduced the President of the United States of America as being a clone of Big Boss, the story was always headed for Metal Wolf Chaos levels of lunacy. They even gave him in a power suit.
Okay, so maybe that wasn't the best example considering it was hinted at the end of MGS3, so I'll use another one.DrPirate said:
The rag-tag radio gang of MGS3 forming The Patriots?
And another one about
Para-Medic being Dr. Clarke - now I know Dr. Clarke was gender neutral in the Japanese version of MGS1, but to think that the most kind-natured character in MGS3 turned into an evil, mad scientist performing inhumane experiments that would chill her to bone is a prime example of MGS4's personality transplants
DrPirate said:
It's just the opposite, actually. If you are a fan of the series, how can you like MGS4 knowing that it shits all over the original trilogy? I mean, most people here are in love with MGS3, and yet many of them love MGS4 despite of it defeating the whole idea behind MGS3's splendid ending. Someone please explain this to me.
Graphics Horse said:
EXACTLY. This is the point.
The story is batshit insane. There are too many people who attempt to take the story seriously, and more common than not, those are the people who say: Ok. This is retarded. I'm not buying this shit story.
But the entire thing isn't to insult your intelligence, it's just a story for entertainment. I enjoy books and movies, but the story in this game is meant to be enjoyed in another way. I just brush aside all my notions of reality and truth and accept Kojima's story for what it is. Metal Gear has the same amount of relevancy to truth as Star Wars does.
I don't know. For what it was worth, I enjoyed Metal Gear's plot.
I suppose I just feel sorry for those who were let down by it. The hype must have been kill you like it did to me and after all that time, to be let down? That must suck.
I'll exit this thread now. Sorry for getting in the way of this conversation.
Well, you can enjoy MGS4 if you want, nobody's stopping you. But just so you know, I am (was) a huge, huge Metal Gear fan. From 2003-2006 I ran a huge MGS fansite (Planet-MGS.com, then renamed MetalGearSource.com) that got thousands of visitors a day, but I ran out of time to do it, and MGS: TUS had come along by that point so I just decided to pack it in. But y'know, I was disappointed in MGS4. To me, it craps on the entire trilogy. If anything, it's sort of an insult, considering all the time and effort I and so many others put into running a site and community as a tribute to the series, and then Kojima comes along and does that.DrPirate said:
At least that's my perspective on it.
Omikaru said:
Holy shit!
I used to go there ALOT to catch every bit of news (This was before N4G and before I learned how to use RSS).
Oh man, dude, that sucks. I can empathize with you slightly
I don't know what to tell you then. I can't apologize on Kojima's behalf naturally, but as a fellow fan, the only thing I can think of is to try it again and experience the story in a different mindset.
I'm pretty much done with MGS after 4, myself.Francinium said:
I'll probably indulge in the alternate universe spinoffs like AC!D, because they're generally quite fun from a gameplay (well, AC!D2 anyway) and plot perspective. But MGS4 already did enough damage to the trilogy, and I find it hard to play those without going back to MGS4's "explanations" these days. I really don't fancy experiencing another sodomizing of the series in that way...
Paramedic and everyone else in operation Snake Eater were branded as "the bad guys" right after MGS3 and during Portable Ops weren't they? It makes sense after playing Portable Op's that the Snake Eater crew would be a little pissed at everyone tbh.Omikaru said:
MGS4's plot problems stem from the fact it tries to answer to many questions but infact brings more questions to the table. What was Naomi doing the whole time? What was Eva and Ocelot trying to achieve? What was Vamp doing with Ocelot?
Another problem were the characters (read: bosses) in MGS4 were not as interesting and integral to the plot as every MGS before it imo.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
*snot-nosed kid voice* Well I like this one more than that one. If you don't agree you're dumb neh.
This place is pathetic. I wanted to join Gaf because of the lack of bitching and moaning and the low tolerance towards it. WTF is up with this place?
..... So I've been just messing around with the guards and they are really tough on harder difficulty settings. I'm not sure what I want to do: Go for no alerts/full stealth or mess with the fuckers and see what they do. Both ways prove to be very fun and worthwhile. Back to complaining boys and girls.
This place is pathetic. I wanted to join Gaf because of the lack of bitching and moaning and the low tolerance towards it. WTF is up with this place?
..... So I've been just messing around with the guards and they are really tough on harder difficulty settings. I'm not sure what I want to do: Go for no alerts/full stealth or mess with the fuckers and see what they do. Both ways prove to be very fun and worthwhile. Back to complaining boys and girls.
140.85 said:
It retcons tons of things from the three games, rendering many memorable cut-scenes, characters and plots pointless. Here's just one example:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yxrPTvJBY6c
Watch it from 6:00 to 7:30. If you've finished MGS4 (which I guess you have) you'll realize that the whole purpose of this conversation between Snake and Naomi is now pointless thanks to MGS4's ending.
But then again, MGS4 defeats the purpose of its own cut-scenes.
Snake's supposed suicide? Raiden's apparent death? EVA getting burned to save "Big Boss"' body? Decent cut-scenes that could have been great if their very own game didn't defeat their own purpose by the revelation of some new information told later in the game (the body being Solidus' instead of Big Boss', Raiden not dying, Snake not killing himself, etc).
Bearillusion
Banned
The gameplay is somewhat broken in MGS4. I was hiding in the first level only to find that I where I was hiding was a respawn point and guards were respawing on top of me. Just about ruined the game for me.
TTP said:
I don't remember The Sixth Sense that well, but as far as I can remember, the whole movie was done with the final twist in mind.
That body in MGS4 being Solidus' instead of Big Boss? Sorry, I don't buy it, and I don't know how anyone can. EVA almost getting killed in order to save it made sense when we thought that it was Big Boss', but knowing that it was Solidus' makes it so stupid. Not to mention that the Patriots and Liquid Ocelot were both fooled into believing that Solidus' body was Big Boss. So, the game is basically telling me that this almighty organization that rules the world, and Solid Snake's evil brother who was obsessed with Big Boss his whole life, couldn't tell the difference between Solidus and Big Boss even though they were missing a different eye? How does that make any sense?
About Raiden's death, it doesn't even have anything to do with any plot twist. That cut-scene was obviously presented to us as a death scene. Then, an hour later, we're told that Raiden is just fine. There's just no excuse for that. I remember this one friend of mine that was playing the game with me a month after the game came out, and he really liked Raiden's "death" scene. You should have seen his reaction when he heard Otacon saying that Raiden was alive.
About Raiden's death, it doesn't even have anything to do with any plot twist. That cut-scene was obviously presented to us as a death scene. Then, an hour later, we're told that Raiden is just fine. There's just no excuse for that. I remember this one friend of mine that was playing the game with me a month after the game came out, and he really liked Raiden's "death" scene. You should have seen his reaction when he heard Otacon saying that Raiden was alive.
I was mentioning earlier how MGS1 and MGS2's twists were both shocking and coherent. Some of MGS4's may be shocking.... but coherent? No.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I want to play this again so badly but I keep hoping they will announce trophy's.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
What's wrong with having to play it again? I've beaten it twice without going for the extra doodads you get for no alerts and such but I'd go through it again and again without trying for them and STILL play again for trophies....
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
SMZC said:
Ahh so lame your probably right.
MoonsaultSlayer said:
I have played through it 4 times already.
The next time I do I wanted to do everything perfect which would be nice to do while getting trophy's.
Bearillusion
Banned
I don't remember the exact location but it's not the very first part. I decided to take out some guards using the Mk 2 or whatever it was called and just as I was about to get them suddenly the camera snapped back to snake as he had been discovered. I was surprised I was found as I thought I was well hidden. Turned out where I was hidding was a respawn point.
Bearillusion
Banned
TTP said:
You're correct they may have vaulted over the wall in the little spot I was hidding but it still breaks the illusion.
I finished the game but I found it's little things like this coupled with loading screens (especially between chase scenes like at the end of Act 2 or 3) that made the game feel unpolished or badly thought out. To me anyway.
SMZC said:
Snake talking with Naomi about how
he killed Big Boss in MG2 (or thought he had)
SMZC said:
Um, you do understand the whole concept or leading the viewer, plot twists and red herrings right? Just because one thing was indicated to the viewer but the actual truth turned out different doesn't break the plot. You must not enjoy alot of films because this is a pretty common device.
This game, and the OP of this thread are so awesome
what's the name of the song at around 5:43 in the IGN review below?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hi7a6PgnOCA
what's the name of the song at around 5:43 in the IGN review below?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hi7a6PgnOCA
Shalashaska
Member
35.AmMortal said:This game, and the OP of this thread are so awesome
what's the name of the song at around 5:43 in the IGN review below?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hi7a6PgnOCA
Father & Son
Red Blaster
Member
In retrospect I can say MGS4 was objectively pretty uneven quality-wise, though I still love the game personally.
All this talk about shitting on the series however, is just standard nerd outrage . MGS4, is in essence, what most Metal Gear fans wanted after MGS2. Everywhere it was "What is this supernatural bullshit doing in Metal Gear? Immortal vampires running up walls and women who can deflect missiles!?" I toss some of the blame on Kojima as well, because I think it's clear he didn't listen to his own ideas quite as much as he did the fans who so desperately wanted everything to be neatly wrapped up. He'd pretty much backed himself into a corner with the story and tried his best to force it into a simple conclusion to please those old fans.
Also, the series retconned shit all the time. In MGS1,
which is one of the most egregious retcons in the series. Kojima clearly didn't care that much about having everything work together and just added stuff he thought was neat.
All this talk about shitting on the series however, is just standard nerd outrage . MGS4, is in essence, what most Metal Gear fans wanted after MGS2. Everywhere it was "What is this supernatural bullshit doing in Metal Gear? Immortal vampires running up walls and women who can deflect missiles!?" I toss some of the blame on Kojima as well, because I think it's clear he didn't listen to his own ideas quite as much as he did the fans who so desperately wanted everything to be neatly wrapped up. He'd pretty much backed himself into a corner with the story and tried his best to force it into a simple conclusion to please those old fans.
Also, the series retconned shit all the time. In MGS1,
it's revealed that Big Boss was Snake's father and that he knew all along as he was killing him
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