Support NeoGAF

[Catalix]

What's the name of the track that plays at the 6:30 mark？

The Best is Yet to Come.

 

[Shalashaska]

What's the name of the track that plays at the 6:30 mark？

The Best Is Yet To Come

Bah Beaten.

 

[∀ Narayan]

No.

I love all the Solid games but Snake Eater easily bests 1&2. 4 is just as good as 3, if not better.

I suppose I should have done some selective quoting.

This is what I think of the Metal Gear series:

3>1>4>2

 

[afternoon delight]

Whoa whoa whoa - where the hell does all this MGS3 hate come from? Jesus christ that game is perfection incarnate.

 

[AmMortal]

Man, the voice cast was great in mgs1

Especially Naomi's older self. what happened?

 

[SMZC]

Snake talking with Naomi about how

Spoiler

he killed Big Boss in MG2 (or thought he had)

? What's the problem?

Spoiler

Even if he thinks he actually killed Big Boss, the fact that he's still alive reduces a lot of the emotion of that conversation. Also, the Solid Snake part of the series' storyline has always been about the legacy of Big Boss. Bringing him back defeats one of the main ideas behind pretty much the whole series. There were many ways to put Big Boss without resorting to bringing him back to life. MGS2 did it in a way, since Solidus was a perfect clone and seeing him was, in many ways, like seeing Big Boss. If not, a flashback would have been more than enough.

Another problem about bringing Big Boss back to life is that MGS4 took all of the focus from Solid Snake, and the game that was supposed to be about the last chapter of his life actually became more about Big Boss.

Um, you do understand the whole concept or leading the viewer, plot twists and red herrings right? Just because one thing was indicated to the viewer but the actual truth turned out different doesn't break the plot. You must not enjoy alot of films because this is a pretty common device.

As I said, it's all about being able to surprise the viewer (or player in this case) while remaining coherent and consistent with the storyline you've established.

Spoiler

Going back to the scene in the Volta with EVA, the scene was so emotional because we knew that EVA cared about Big Boss due to their relation since MGS3. She almost gets herself killed to save the man she cared about, even if he is nothing more than a vegetable. Then, in an attempt to surprise us, the game tells us that that body was actually Solidus', and that EVA knew that all along. How can I possibly buy that? It happens that suddenly the game tells us that the whole point from that scene is gone. This is horrible writting, and the series had never resorted to things like this until now. Back during the MGS1 and MGS2 days, every plot twist made perfect sense, and despite of all the twists that those games threw at us they never ruined any of the more emotional cut-scenes.

If I was Kojima and wanted to surprise people I could say that Kermit the frog was the founder of the Patriots, I bet I would have surprised everybody with that. But that doesn't mean that would have been a good plot twist.

 

[S1lentTwo]

Spoiler

Even if he thinks he actually killed Big Boss, the fact that he's still alive reduces a lot of the emotion of that conversation. Also, the Solid Snake part of the series' storyline has always been about the legacy of Big Boss. Bringing him back defeats one of the main ideas behind pretty much the whole series. There were many ways to put Big Boss without resorting to bringing him back to life. MGS2 did it in a way, since Solidus was a perfect clone and seeing him was, in many ways, like seeing Big Boss. If not, a flashback would have been more than enough.

Another problem about bringing Big Boss back to life is that MGS4 took all of the focus from Solid Snake, and the game that was supposed to be about the last chapter of his life actually became more about Big Boss.

Spoiler

I don't see how that reduces the emotion of the conversation at all. Snake believes that he killed Big Boss and he basically did. Had he not been recovered by Zero, he'd have died at the hands of Snake. That Snake was willing to kill his own father is the point of the conversation, not whether or not Big Boss is technically "dead" or not.

 

[SMZC]

Spoiler

I don't see how that reduces the emotion of the conversation at all. Snake believes that he killed Big Boss and he basically did. Had he not been recovered by Zero, he'd have died at the hands of Snake. That Snake was willing to kill his own father is the point of the conversation, not whether or not Big Boss is technically "dead" or not.

Spoiler

Well, yes, you could say that the conversation is about how Snake was willing to kill his father, but the point is also about the importance of the Solid Snake era being about the Sons of Big Boss rather than about Big Boss himself, which was pretty much the whole behind behind MGS1's plot, and that conversation between Snake and Naomi was part of that. Knowing that he's actually alive cheapens all of this, regardless of whether the characters actually believe that he is truly dead. At least that's how I see it.

 

[jett]

In retrospect I can say MGS4 was objectively pretty uneven quality-wise, though I still love the game personally.

All this talk about shitting on the series however, is just standard nerd outrage . MGS4, is in essence, what most Metal Gear fans wanted after MGS2. Everywhere it was "What is this supernatural bullshit doing in Metal Gear? Immortal vampires running up walls and women who can deflect missiles!?" I toss some of the blame on Kojima as well, because I think it's clear he didn't listen to his own ideas quite as much as he did the fans who so desperately wanted everything to be neatly wrapped up. He'd pretty much backed himself into a corner with the story and tried his best to force it into a simple conclusion to please those old fans.

Also, the series retconned shit all the time. In MGS1,

Spoiler

it's revealed that Big Boss was Snake's father and that he knew all along as he was killing him

which is one of the most egregious retcons in the series. Kojima clearly didn't care that much about having everything work together and just added stuff he thought was neat.

Fuck those shit ass old fans. Trying to tie everything up was the undoing of MGS4. Considering some of the "explanations"(Ocelolt), I'd rather he had kept that shit in the dark.

 

[SaitoH]

I've been dying to play through this again, but I promised myself that I'd finish all my current games before I do.

I need to get my Big Boss ranking, dammit!

 

[Mets39]

All of the Metal Gears are equally awesome in my book. Try as I might I can't really separate them into a ranking, each brings something special.

Yeah, i'm in the same boat man! Though Metal Gear Solid 2 was my most anticipated game of all time and it totally exceeded my expectations, so it has a special place in my gamer heart

 

[MidiSurf]

So is MGS4 going to get trophy support ? I still haven't played the game because I know I won't play it through twice. I want to get my trophys at first play through.

 

[jett]

So is MGS4 going to get trophy support ? I still haven't played the game because I know I won't play it through twice. I want to get my trophys at first play through.

I really doubt it.

 

[-COOLIO-]

4>1>3>>>2

edit: and people really need to stop the "i cant believe anyone thinks mgs X is better than mgs Y" bullshit, they're all AAA games as far as reviews go.

 

[Witchfinder General]

So, how noob friendly is MGS4?

I've never played a MGS game before nor have I played many games in the stealth genre.

I am however looking for a great action game with a long, engaging story line with an epic feel to it, and from what I've seen the MGS games seem to embody 'epic'.

 

[S1lentTwo]

Spoiler

but the point is also about the importance of the Solid Snake era being about the Sons of Big Boss rather than about Big Boss himself, which was pretty much the whole behind behind MGS1's plot, and that conversation between Snake and Naomi was part of that. Knowing that he's actually alive cheapens all of this, regardless of whether the characters actually believe that he is truly dead. At least that's how I see it.

Spoiler

You mean how Snake and Liquid are still living in the shadow of Big Boss? I also don't see how that's changed just because he's in a coma somewhere rather than in a grave. But I guess we just don't see this the same way.

 

[-COOLIO-]

So, how noob friendly is MGS4?

I've never played a MGS game before nor have I played many games in the stealth genre.

I am however looking for a great action game with a long, engaging story line with an epic feel to it, and from what I've seen the MGS games seem to embody 'epic'.

mgs 4 is beyond perfect for you. ya it's very noob friendly on easy to normal

 

[S1lentTwo]

So, how noob friendly is MGS4?

I've never played a MGS game before nor have I played many games in the stealth genre.

I am however looking for a great action game with a long, engaging story line with an epic feel to it, and from what I've seen the MGS games seem to embody 'epic'.

Well, the gameplay can be very noob friendly. There are difficulty settings and such. But it's going to be tough for you to appreciate the storyline without having played the other games...

 

[Witchfinder General]

mgs 4 is beyond perfect for you. ya it's very noob friendly on easy to normal

Sweet, I'll grab it.

 

[brandonh83]

Sweet, I'll grab it.

They say a good life is based on good choices. You've just made one.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I guess I'm a bad Metal Gear fan by enjoying and liking and being more impressed with MGS4 in every single way than the other 3.

Blasphemy I suppose

is that really the consensus in this thread? i mean the game scored a 10 on ign and gamespot how could we look like crazy ones? :lol

 

[Darkpen]

MGS2 was incredibly boring to me. It's as simple as that. 1, 3, and 4 are 3 of my favorite games of all time. 2 is pretty terrible.

Edit: and 2 is no where near as good as 1 and to even insinuate so is a disgrace to 1.

now hold on, there's a difference between talking about the story, and talking about gameplay controls.

2 is just as good, if not better than 1. 1 is brilliant and awesome, but you just try to watch someone attempt a chokehold in MGS1, as opposed to 2 or 3. Just try to watch. It has its share of problems too, you know.

Don't be blind to the flaws.

 

[ayrkain]

Well, the gameplay can be very noob friendly. There are difficulty settings and such. But it's going to be tough for you to appreciate the storyline without having played the other games...

The Gametrailers retrospective piece helped me out a lot. Never played an MGS game before 4, and I really enjoyed it.

 

[Darkpen]

EXACTLY. This is the point.

The story is batshit insane. There are too many people who attempt to take the story seriously, and more common than not, those are the people who say: Ok. This is retarded. I'm not buying this shit story.

But the entire thing isn't to insult your intelligence, it's just a story for entertainment. I enjoy books and movies, but the story in this game is meant to be enjoyed in another way. I just brush aside all my notions of reality and truth and accept Kojima's story for what it is. Metal Gear has the same amount of relevancy to truth as Star Wars does.

I don't know. For what it was worth, I enjoyed Metal Gear's plot.

I suppose I just feel sorry for those who were let down by it. The hype must have been kill you like it did to me and after all that time, to be let down? That must suck.

I'll exit this thread now. Sorry for getting in the way of this conversation.

What's ironic about MGS's story, is the hardcore base around the series. You have all these hardcore followers who took everything far too seriously, who OCD'd and ADD'd the hell out of every bit of Kojima morsel they could get their hands on, and never, at any point, took a step back to see the bigger picture, and just realize that they were going with the flow. There was never a holy book of all things behind the MGS series, at least not until much later.

Maybe its because I entered the series starting with MGS2, and then played 1, and then 3, but I naturally accepted the insanity that was MGS, because it was a videogame, not some hardcore military shooter.

Even more so, because Splinter Cell existed to fill that hardcore niche as well.

MGS4 has its share of consistency problems, punctuated by the existence of the MGS Database (which was a foolhardy move by Kojipro, if you ask me), but for the most part, you can just go with the flow and accept what they tell you is true.

And that's something that a lot of hardcore followers, of ANY kind of story, fail to recognize, and fall into the pits of "WTF THAT WASN'T WHAT I WAS EXPECTING, THIS IS FUCKING BULLSHIT."

I witnessed this second hand, when a friend of mine tried to read too much into Kingdom Hearts 2 during his playthrough, and realized the difference in how we played.

They have no one but themselves to blame.

 

[-COOLIO-]

What's ironic about MGS's story, is the hardcore base around the series. You have all these hardcore followers who took everything far too seriously, who OCD'd and ADD'd the hell out of every bit of Kojima morsel they could get their hands on, and never, at any point, took a step back to see the bigger picture, and just realize that they were going with the flow. There was never a holy book of all things behind the MGS series, at least not until much later.

Maybe its because I entered the series starting with MGS2, and then played 1, and then 3, but I naturally accepted the insanity that was MGS, because it was a videogame, not some hardcore military shooter.

Even more so, because Splinter Cell existed to fill that hardcore niche as well.

MGS4 has its share of consistency problems, punctuated by the existence of the MGS Database (which was a foolhardy move by Kojipro, if you ask me), but for the most part, you can just go with the flow and accept what they tell you is true.

And that's something that a lot of hardcore followers, of ANY kind of story, fail to recognize, and fall into the pits of "WTF THAT WASN'T WHAT I WAS EXPECTING, THIS IS FUCKING BULLSHIT."

I witnessed this second hand, when a friend of mine tried to read too much into Kingdom Hearts 2 during his playthrough, and realized the difference in how we played.

They have no one but themselves to blame.

so true, i was going to make a post just like that.

 

[SMZC]

They have no one but themselves to blame.

Bullshit. To name one example, if MGS3 explicitly stated "the American branch of the Philosophers changes its name to the Patriots" you can't make a new game, ignore that statement and say that the Patriots was an organization that had nothing to do with the Philosophers. Especially when the whole point of MGS3's ending revolved around the idea that the Philosophers were the Patriots.

Not being the game we expected? Maybe you guys just never gave a fuck about the story, that's why you don't mind the retconfest that is MGS4. Which hey, is perfectly fine. I realize that not everyone wants to play every game of the series four or five times just to understand every tiny detail of the storyline. But some of us do, so please don't come to us with this "you can't take MGS' storyline seriously" bullshit, especially when the MGS storylines are more than worthy of being taken seriously (although MGS4 has definitely changed that, I'll give you that).

And speaking of a game not being what people expected, remember the MGS2 haters?

 

[-COOLIO-]

Bullshit. To name one example, if MGS3 explicitly stated "the American branch of the Philosophers changes its name to the Patriots" you can't make a new game, ignore that statement and say that the Patriots was an organization that had nothing to do with the Philosophers. Especially when the whole point of MGS3's ending revolved around the idea that the Philosophers were the Patriots.

Not being the game we expected? Maybe you guys just never gave a fuck about the story, that's why you don't mind the retconfest that is MGS4. Which hey, is perfectly fine. I realize that not everyone wants to play every game of the series four or five times just to understand every tiny detail of the storyline. But some of us do, so please don't come to us with this "you can't take MGS' storyline seriously" bullshit, especially when the MGS storylines are more than worthy of being taken seriously (although MGS4 has definitely changed that, I'll give you that).

And speaking of a game not being what people expected, remember the MGS2 haters?

i don't even see how that's a problem really:

Patriots A: the US branch of the philosophers

Patriots B:

Spoiler

Zero's posse

two different organizations? anyway if every piece of the puzzle, no matter how emotionally irrelevant it is, has to fit for you, you have my sincere sympathy.

 

[S1lentTwo]

Maybe you guys just never gave a fuck about the story, that's why you don't mind the retconfest that is MGS4. Which hey, is perfectly fine. I realize that not everyone wants to play every game of the series four or five times just to understand every tiny detail of the storyline.

I've been a HUGE fan of the story since MGS1. I've played each game to completion at least 7 or 8 times (except for MGS4, about 4 so far). And I enjoyed MGS4's story. So don't try and paint it like the only people who like MGS4 are MGS noobs or people who don't care about the story.

You have to understand that MGS4 was faced with the impossible task of answering MGS2's questions, questions which were never meant to have answers in the first place. That being considered, I think the game did an amazing job. But then again, I've never been one to get my panties in a bunch over a few retcons. Especially considering MGS4 was not the first game in the series to feature them.

 

[jett]

So, how noob friendly is MGS4?

I've never played a MGS game before nor have I played many games in the stealth genre.

I am however looking for a great action game with a long, engaging story line with an epic feel to it, and from what I've seen the MGS games seem to embody 'epic'.

You'll have absolutely no idea what is going on in the game.

 

[Darkpen]

Bullshit. To name one example, if MGS3 explicitly stated "the American branch of the Philosophers changes its name to the Patriots" you can't make a new game, ignore that statement and say that the Patriots was an organization that had nothing to do with the Philosophers. Especially when the whole point of MGS3's ending revolved around the idea that the Philosophers were the Patriots.

Not being the game we expected? Maybe you guys just never gave a fuck about the story, that's why you don't mind the retconfest that is MGS4. Which hey, is perfectly fine. I realize that not everyone wants to play every game of the series four or five times just to understand every tiny detail of the storyline. But some of us do, so please don't come to us with this "you can't take MGS' storyline seriously" bullshit, especially when the MGS storylines are more than worthy of being taken seriously (although MGS4 has definitely changed that, I'll give you that).

And speaking of a game not being what people expected, remember the MGS2 haters?

Considering I wasn't an MGS2 hater, I don't understand your point. I don't even know what you're talking about, as far as your first paragraph is concerned.

If you've played every canonical MGS game, including Portable Ops, and then read the Database, you'd know that its not MGS4 that's at fault, its the fact that they went and brought in more confusion than necessary with Big Boss "explaining" things at the end, and then having the Database released, which complicates matters even more, to the point of contradicting Portable Ops.

When I say that you can't take the MGS story seriously, I'm not talking about the story's integrity or worth, which you seem to be confused with. I'm talking about how people outright expect linearity, realism, and a solid foundation.

Not to mention, if there's one thing that MGS4 pointed out, its that you can't take MGS3 seriously, let alone Portable Ops. Because of MGS3's postmodernism (i.e. time paradox), you can only assume that MGS3 was, as MGS1 was to Raiden (aka you), a videogame, a story, that was portrayed to an audience, the world of people in MGS4. Prior to MGS3, people always viewed Big Boss as this evil guy, and it wasn't until after 3 that we saw him in a different light, as did the people in the world of MGS4 did.

But at the same time, everything has to be taken with a grain of salt, whether for plot purposes (Zero), or in the name of the fact that this is a videogame, a crafted story.

You can't take the game seriously, or at least, you shouldn't, otherwise you're just walking down a path of disappointment. That applies to any game outside of purposely mindbending ones that demand the player to figure the answer out to move on, which are few and far between thesedays.

 

[Fun Factor]

Bullshit. To name one example, if MGS3 explicitly stated "the American branch of the Philosophers changes its name to the Patriots" you can't make a new game, ignore that statement and say that the Patriots was an organization that had nothing to do with the Philosophers. Especially when the whole point of MGS3's ending revolved around the idea that the Philosophers were the Patriots.

That was explained in detail in the MGS database.

 

[Witchfinder General]

You'll have absolutely no idea what is going on in the game.

I guess I could read up about the storyline on Wikipedia.

Is there perhaps a site dedicated to explaining the MGS story like the one for Half-Life?

 

[Darkpen]

I guess I could read up about the storyline on Wikipedia.

Is there perhaps a site dedicated to explaining the MGS story like the one for Half-Life?

the best you can do is either youtube all the cutscenes, or just find other means of acquiring video footage of the cutscenes strung together, if you get my meaning.

Personally, I say just go and pick up the Essentials collection. Price dropped on it, I think (or was that just for Black Friday...). As with all games, playing the games first-hand is far better than watching cutscenes.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

You'll have absolutely no idea what is going on in the game.

Not true actually. A friend of mine at work who had never ever played a MGS title nor any game in it's genre (kind of a new gamer in a way... outside of the Tomb Raider series) had picked it up thanks to my brother and I constantly talking about it and telling him he should get it. Anyway... down the road after having completed it, I realized he may have been completely oblivious to WTF was going on. He told me that he actually didn't have that bad of a problem and it presented itself like a movie. He understood that the character's Snake interacted with were somehow connected to him in earlier entries and the game did fine explaining what was going on coherently enough.

Kind of says a lot about these so called fans in here claiming the story is lacking and incoherent. A 40 year old gaming noob understood the damn game. Get with it.

 

[revolverjgw]

A lot of people can and do enjoy the game without any prior experience with the series, but still it breaks my heart when people to see people go in dry. It doesn't do the games, or your purchase/rental/theft, proper justice.

The story arc is nonsense in retrospectives and text, but a total blast when you're there in the field being part of it with all the great music and easter eggs and gameplay touches and random codecs and arrgghh.

 

[Wii Will Rock U]

This may be the wrong place to post this but weren't we supposed to hear news about the a legged MGS4 360 port by now? Someone said we would know Dec. 8th and it is Dec. 9th.

 

[Mr_Appleby]

You'll have absolutely no idea what is going on in the game.

bullshit. it's a game. he (she?) can play the game. the story pretty much (over)explains itself.

i skipped 2 and 3 (not intentionally, just wasn't gaming then) and i had no problems understanding 4.

it's not like saying "if you skipped the lectures on predicate calculus then you'll be fcuked on the exam"

it's more like "don't worry too much if you missed last weeks episode, we'll fill you in as we go along, and on the whole the jokes will still be funny"

my only real criticism was kojima needed a lesson in shutting up and letting the story tell itself. but many artistic pieces share this flaw.

Spoiler

although i'd agree the shadow moses flashback is more delightful to those that played 1..

 

[Darkpen]

Not true actually. A friend of mine at work who had never ever played a MGS title nor any game in it's genre (kind of a new gamer in a way... outside of the Tomb Raider series) had picked it up thanks to my brother and I constantly talking about it and telling him he should get it. Anyway... down the road after having completed it, I realized he may have been completely oblivious to WTF was going on. He told me that he actually didn't have that bad of a problem and it presented itself like a movie. He understood that the character's Snake interacted with were somehow connected to him in earlier entries and the game did fine explaining what was going on coherently enough.

Kind of says a lot about these so called fans in here claiming the story is lacking and incoherent. A 40 year old gaming noob understood the damn game. Get with it.

On the flipside, there are also people who just can't stand MGS4, because of how it presents itself. There are people who feel that the game doesn't explain itself better, and feel bothered by that.

There's enough anecdotal evidence of this to recognize that segment of the audience, because they're so vocal about it. Its the people who didn't mind it as much that we don't hear from as often as we'd like.

 

[YoungHav]

Seriously, why the hell aren't any journalists asking whether or not this game will ever have TROPHIES? Why the eff can't Kojipro just make an official statement on this already, it is pissing me off. Don't devs post here? Can anyone send Kojima a text message or something, wtf.

 

[Automatisch]

Seriously, why the hell aren't any journalists asking whether or not this game will ever have TROPHIES? Why the eff can't Kojipro just make an official statement on this already, it is pissing me off. Don't devs post here? Can anyone send Kojima a text message or something, wtf.

Why does it bother you that much? They're just achievements... If they aren't here by now, I would just accept that they probably won't be patched in.

 

[Guy Legend]

Seriously, why the hell aren't any journalists asking whether or not this game will ever have TROPHIES? Why the eff can't Kojipro just make an official statement on this already, it is pissing me off. Don't devs post here? Can anyone send Kojima a text message or something, wtf.

1up did ask in one of their latest interviews and got a no comment from Kojima.

Seriously Konami, patch them in.

 

[hirokazu]

Seriously, why the hell aren't any journalists asking whether or not this game will ever have TROPHIES? Why the eff can't Kojipro just make an official statement on this already, it is pissing me off. Don't devs post here? Can anyone send Kojima a text message or something, wtf.

Because it's not, LOL.

Seriously, I posted back when trophies support was first added to the XMB not to expect anything. If any support is coming, they'll make an announcement.

No big deal, you should not have bought a trophy-less game expecting it to be patched in later because that'll just end up with breakups and tears.

 

[Daante]

I've been a HUGE fan of the story since MGS1. I've played each game to completion at least 7 or 8 times (except for MGS4, about 4 so far). And I enjoyed MGS4's story. So don't try and paint it like the only people who like MGS4 are MGS noobs or people who don't care about the story.

I totally agree. Only i havent played trough MGS4 more than one time, yet..

 

[YoungHav]

Why does it bother you that much? They're just achievements... If they aren't here by now, I would just accept that they probably won't be patched in.

Because I paid $60 and the LEAST they can do is give an official yes or no. I don't want to play it a second time around now, only to have them patch it in eventually. I'd rather save a 2nd playthrough for when it's trophy patched. If it's an official no, then I'll move on and play again ASAP. Capiche? If Kojima can answer "Duuuude is this game coming to the 360" a million times, then these same fanboy journalists can at least ask whether or not this'll have trophies... once and for all.

1up did ask in one of their latest interviews and got a no comment from Kojima.

I'm going to take that as a yes and wait on them.

 

[SMZC]

i don't even see how that's a problem really:

Patriots A: the US branch of the philosophers

Patriots B:

Spoiler

Zero's posse

It's a problem because MGS3 was the tale of how Big Boss started his war against the Patriots, because back then the American branch of the Philosophers (the same people who had The Boss killed) were the same thing that we knew as the Patriots in MGS2.

Spoiler

MGS4 completely rewrites the purpose of MGS3, since it says that the Patriots had nothing to do with the Philosophers and that Big Boss started his war against the Patriots not because of what they did to The Boss, but because Big Boss became a Patriot himself and ended up disagreeing with the main founder.

anyway if every piece of the puzzle, no matter how emotionally irrelevant it is, has to fit for you, you have my sincere sympathy.

The whole point behind MGS3's story is "emotionally irrelevant"? Wow.

You have to understand that MGS4 was faced with the impossible task of answering MGS2's questions, questions which were never meant to have answers in the first place.

So was MGS3! MGS3 explained what the Patriots really were, and it gave a very convincing answer without resorting to retconning.

In any case, you said so yourself. Many of MGS2's questions didn't need an answer. I fail to see how Liquid Ocelot needed an explanation, for instance, taking into consideration that most of the characters in the series are freaks. I always assumed that Liquid hated Solid Snake so much that his arm just possessed Ocelot whenever Snake was nearby. Personally, I didn't need any other explanation.

If you've played every canonical MGS game, including Portable Ops, and then read the Database, you'd know that its not MGS4 that's at fault, its the fact that they went and brought in more confusion than necessary with Big Boss "explaining" things at the end, and then having the Database released, which complicates matters even more, to the point of contradicting Portable Ops.

The database is full of bullshit, but Portable Ops was contradicted by MGS4 itself (not like I care about PO, though).

Spoiler

Portable suggested that the mastermind behind that incident (Zero) was also the one who had The Boss killed. Then MGS4 states that Zero admired The Boss and that he created The Patriots because of her.

This doesn't make any sense, and is just one more example of the retconfest that is MGS4 (again, MGS4 itself, not the database).

When I say that you can't take the MGS story seriously, I'm not talking about the story's integrity or worth, which you seem to be confused with. I'm talking about how people outright expect linearity, realism, and a solid foundation.

I don't understand. I certainly never expected realism from a series with talking dead arms or 100 year old snipers, but at least I expect each new game of the series to respect the whole point of its predecessors, and MGS4, for instance, has ruined the whole point of MGS3 due to the reasons I mentioned earlier in this reply.

Not to mention, if there's one thing that MGS4 pointed out, its that you can't take MGS3 seriously, let alone Portable Ops. Because of MGS3's postmodernism (i.e. time paradox), you can only assume that MGS3 was, as MGS1 was to Raiden (aka you), a videogame, a story, that was portrayed to an audience, the world of people in MGS4.

I think you're confusing things. If I didn't misunderstood you, you're talking about things like Campbell talking to Raiden about MGS2's gameplay being different than MGS1's, implying that the game we played (MGS1) was Raiden's VR training, am I right? That doesn't mean the storyline of any of the games (MGS1 or MGS3) wasn't faithful to the actuals events. Because if we can't take as true the events of any game, then what can we take as true?

That was explained in detail in the MGS database.

What are you referring to? I don't remember the database talking about that (and still, we're talking about the same database that says that it was Solidus who crashed Arsenal Gear into Manhattan instead of Liquid).

 

[DrBo42]

I've been on a recent drawing kick using an app on facebook, I did one from the new Prince of Persia earlier. Anyway, I decided to do one for Old Snake, check it out.

http://apps.facebook.com/graffitiwall/show_replay.php?rn=a8f8de9bfebe2a9fd5ce7955b92ec71f

That auto-playback thing is just so damn cool. Viva Shinkawa!

 

[freethought]

So was MGS3! MGS3 explained what the Patriots really were, and it gave a very convincing answer without resorting to retconning.

MGS3 was practically nothing but an exercise in retconning. Christ, the only reason it exists is to try to quell the hatred some felt toward MGS2. Your whole point about the Philosophers and the Patriots seems completely bogus too. The Patriots as we know them was founded in the US with the Philosophers Legacy. So basically Zero seized control of the Philosophers infrastructure and began using it for his own dastardly ends. I fail to see how this contradicts anything we previously knew. It certainly can't contradict anything in mgs3 since the Patriots were never actually in MGS3.

Personally I blame MGS3 for the ridiculous Zero founded the Patriots twist. It was heavily implied in both that and MPO wasn't it? I agree that who the Patriots were was never important but others felt differently so Kojima made MGS3 as a kind of origin story. That's why MGS3 is bullshit. As I said, it seems to me that the whole plot of that game was nothing but a retcon. The Boss/Big Boss relationship was the only thing worthwhile in the story and personally I thought MGS4's ending built upon it quite well.

MGS4's story has a lot of problems, but the core tale of Snake trying desperately to stay relevant in a world which has seemingly moved on is a wonderful bit of story telling that I enjoyed as much as anything else in the series (and I'm a diehard MGS2 nut). The ending does seemingly undercut all of the good work done by reducing Snake to something of a mute but even then, I found that scene to be excellent regardless so I cut it some slack.

Maybe the series doesn't provide a thrilling 4 part epic story spanning five decades. What it does is deliver four excellent games each with their own strengths and weaknesses. If you can't accept that, fine. I can and have and I feel richer for the experience.

Honestly, forget about the Patriots. 3 and 4 both dealt equal damage to the superb narrative of MGS2 (seriously, bravest and most daring video game story ever, powerful and effective. I love it. Too many Codecs though!). Just take MGS4 as it's meant to be taken. It's a character piece where MGS2 most definitely wasn't. If you can't enjoy it, again that's fine. But don't try and tell us that we're not real fans because we're not all completely pedantic about the story. Look at the broad strokes rather than the minute and admittedly blurry details.

I've been on a recent drawing kick using an app on facebook, I did one from the new Prince of Persia earlier. Anyway, I decided to do one for Old Snake, check it out.

http://apps.facebook.com/graffitiwall/show_replay.php?rn=a8f8de9bfebe2a9fd5ce7955b92ec71f

That auto-playback thing is just so damn cool. Viva Shinkawa!

Wow. Nice work!

 

[S1lentTwo]

So was MGS3! MGS3 explained what the Patriots really were, and it gave a very convincing answer without resorting to retconning.

In any case, you said so yourself. Many of MGS2's questions didn't need an answer. I fail to see how Liquid Ocelot needed an explanation, for instance, taking into consideration that most of the characters in the series are freaks. I always assumed that Liquid hated Solid Snake so much that his arm just possessed Ocelot whenever Snake was nearby. Personally, I didn't need any other explanation.

MGS3 was a prequel and thus had far, far less work to do than MGS4 when it came to attempting to explain MGS2's bullshit. I use the word bullshit with affection, as I absolutely loved MGS2's story, but much of it was indeed just post modern stuff meant to mess with you without any intention of ever clearing things up.

BUT, since people demanded sequels and answers, Kojima delivered. MGS4, then, as a direct sequel to MGS2, had more baggage to deal with than any other game in the series by far. It had to both answer MGS2's questions while simultaneously having its own plot with its own twists and surprises. Under these circumstances, MGS4 did a damn good job. Sure, it had to retcon here and there, and it had some stuff that bothered me, but so has every other MGS game.

In conclusion, if you think MGS4's plot sucked, blame MGS2, or blame Kojima for making a sequel to MGS2.

Myself, I'll take MGS4 for what it is: a flawed but ultimately satisfying conclusion to the series. Considering the circumstances, you can't expect much more than that.

 

[DrPirate]

I've been a HUGE fan of the story since MGS1. I've played each game to completion at least 7 or 8 times (except for MGS4, about 4 so far). And I enjoyed MGS4's story. So don't try and paint it like the only people who like MGS4 are MGS noobs or people who don't care about the story.

You have to understand that MGS4 was faced with the impossible task of answering MGS2's questions, questions which were never meant to have answers in the first place. That being considered, I think the game did an amazing job. But then again, I've never been one to get my panties in a bunch over a few retcons. Especially considering MGS4 was not the first game in the series to feature them.

Thank you.

Myself, I'll take MGS4 for what it is: a flawed but ultimately satisfying conclusion to the series. Considering the circumstances, you can't expect much more than that.

That's what I did, and I couldn't have been happier.

And on top of everything. I really, really liked MGS4's gameplay.

Sure, it was short, but I mean, I really enjoyed all of what was there.

 

[Darkpen]

I think you're confusing things. If I didn't misunderstood you, you're talking about things like Campbell talking to Raiden about MGS2's gameplay being different than MGS1's, implying that the game we played (MGS1) was Raiden's VR training, am I right? That doesn't mean the storyline of any of the games (MGS1 or MGS3) wasn't faithful to the actuals events. Because if we can't take as true the events of any game, then what can we take as true?

No, we take them as what they are: videogames.

Pure and true.

Thank you.



That's what I did, and I couldn't have been happier.

And on top of everything. I really, really liked MGS4's gameplay.

Sure, it was short, but I mean, I really enjoyed all of what was there.

Pretty much. While I'm disappointed by the inconsistencies, along with the release of the Database, I'm fairly content with where it ended.

What I'm disatisfied with, however, was the fact that I was whole-heartedly hoping to play the immediate section of what happens after 2, where you fucking get to save Sunny.

but NOOOOoooooo, we play as a geriatric. MGS4 felt more like Rambo (the last one), than anything else: the entire story was about Snake, from Snake's perspective, the entire freaking way, and it takes place like, AGES later. Felt limiting.