Seems like people see retcon everywhere when in fact they just don't understand what's going on. It becomes kind of obvious when people bring up the whole Philosophers vs Patriots thing from mgs3 and say that it doesn't make any sense. It does, I thought that was the easy part about the whole thing.
As far as i'm concerned, i've played all the games at least 4 times and I find that mgs4 makes mgs3's story even more amazing. I loved The Boss and everything she would say, and mgs4 adds to that. It clearly explains how much of an impact she had over people.
Seems like people see retcon everywhere when in fact they just don't understand what's going on. It becomes kind of obvious when people bring up the whole Philosophers vs Patriots thing from mgs3 and say that it doesn't make any sense. It does, I thought that was the easy part about the whole thing.
As far as i'm concerned, i've played all the games at least 4 times and I find that mgs4 makes mgs3's story even more amazing. I loved The Boss and everything she would say, and mgs4 adds to that. It clearly explains how much of an impact she had over people.
It's a problem because MGS3 was the tale of how Big Boss started his war against the Patriots, because back then the American branch of the Philosophers (the same people who had The Boss killed) were the same thing that we knew as the Patriots in MGS2.
MGS4 completely rewrites the purpose of MGS3, since it says that the Patriots had nothing to do with the Philosophers and that Big Boss started his war against the Patriots not because of what they did to The Boss, but because Big Boss became a Patriot himself and ended up disagreeing with the main founder.
What are you referring to? I don't remember the database talking about that (and still, we're talking about the same database that says that it was Solidus who crashed Arsenal Gear into Manhattan instead of Liquid).
The database said the Philosophers were started during the start of the century & all of them died by the end of the 2nd World War. The people after that were their spiritual successors (CIA, KGB, Volgin, Zero, etc) & they were all just going after their money.
Big Boss (John) didn't start his war with the Patriots in MGS3, the ending (& in the database) clearly stated that the CIA was behind the whole mission.
Seriously, why the hell aren't any journalists asking whether or not this game will ever have TROPHIES? Why the eff can't Kojipro just make an official statement on this already, it is pissing me off. Don't devs post here? Can anyone send Kojima a text message or something, wtf.
It won't happen to MGS4. If anything, it'll be in the rerelease (assuming there will be one...). I mean, it's a pretty good incentive for trophy whores to double-dip.
They decided to go in a different direction? I don't think so, they were forced to go in a different direction because theres no way could make the final game look that good.
The change between MGS2 and MGS3 isn't retconning. Not to say that MGS3 doesn't have retcons, but there are only a few and very minor: Big Boss' eye and Big Boss not being cloned in his late fifties, as Liquid said en MGS2.
freethought said:
Your whole point about the Philosophers and the Patriots seems completely bogus too. The Patriots as we know them was founded in the US with the Philosophers Legacy. So basically Zero seized control of the Philosophers infrastructure and began using it for his own dastardly ends. I fail to see how this contradicts anything we previously knew. It certainly can't contradict anything in mgs3 since the Patriots were never actually in MGS3.
You could say that the Patriots are still the American Philosophers in some way, I'll give you that, but the whole point of MGS3 was to show the Patriots in their origins. Obviously not as we knew them in MGS2, since MGS2 heavely implied that they were AIs, but in MGS2 we learnt about the Wisemen Committee and about how they died 100 years ago, and MGS3 explained very well all of this. I don't understand how anyone could think that the Philosophers weren't the Patriots when MGS3 when MGS3 itself talked about the Wisemen Committee and explicitly stated at the end that "the American branch of the Philosophers changes its name to the Patriots".
freethought said:
Personally I blame MGS3 for the ridiculous Zero founded the Patriots twist. It was heavily implied in both that and MPO wasn't it? I agree that who the Patriots were was never important but others felt differently so Kojima made MGS3 as a kind of origin story. That's why MGS3 is bullshit.
MGS3 isn't to blame for any of this. In MGS3 Zero was just a character with no relevance whatsoever, whose purpose was to serve as your CO and to add some comic relief. And with MGS3 Kojima realized that the identities of the Patriots weren't important, but rather the nature of the organization itself, that's why he explained only that in MGS3. It was with Portable Ops and MGS4 when he finally decided to give in to the "fans" demands and give some actual faces to the Patriots.
freethought said:
The Boss/Big Boss relationship was the only thing worthwhile in the story and personally I thought MGS4's ending built upon it quite well.
No, not at all. It actually ruins its purpose. The idea behind the story of The Boss in MGS3 was that only EVA and Big Boss learnt about the truth behind her acts. EVA was meant to disappear and never appear in the series again (among other reasons because MGS3 was a tribute to the classic James Bond films, and EVA was meant to be the typical Bond girl that you would never see again in the following movies). So, at the end, Big Boss was the only remaining person who knew about The Boss. That's why we had never heard of her before, because she was labeled as a war criminal and there was only one person left who knew about the truth. MGS4 telling us that everyone cared about The Boss (hence creating the Patriots) ruins this, and it's also horrible writting, because the person who is now supposed to be the founder of the Patriots (Zero) never gave a fuck about The Boss in MGS3, but now we're supposed to believe the opposite even though Zero was never fleshed out or developed as a character in MGS3. If Kojima had really wanted to turn Zero as the founder in MGS3, he would have fleshed out his character in MGS3, developing his admiration towards The Boss in MGS3 along with Big Boss', and also explaining in that game that he acquired the Philosophers' instead of having to make a new prequel (PO) just to tell that.
freethought said:
MGS4's story has a lot of problems, but the core tale of Snake trying desperately to stay relevant in a world which has seemingly moved on is a wonderful bit of story telling that I enjoyed as much as anything else in the series
I was really looking forward to that because I loved that idea, but I really don't like how MGS4 executed the idea. Lots of wasted potential there, if you ask me.
freethought said:
MGS2 (seriously, bravest and most daring video game story ever, powerful and effective. I love it. Too many Codecs though!).
as I absolutely loved MGS2's story, but much of it was indeed just post modern stuff meant to mess with you without any intention of ever clearing things up.
It depends. Liquid Ocelot was never meant to be explained, but I think the Patriots were explained pretty well in MGS3. MGS4 should have fleshed out more the idea that the organization was controlled by AIs by MGS2's time and that's it.
So, we can't take seriously one of the most intricate storylines in any game? Then what can we take seriously in videogames?
FTWer said:
The database said the Philosophers were started during the start of the century & all of them died by the end of the 2nd World War. The people after that were their spiritual successors (CIA, KGB, Volgin, Zero, etc) & they were all just going after their money.
Big Boss (John) didn't start his war with the Patriots in MGS3, the ending (& in the database) clearly stated that the CIA was behind the whole mission.
The CIA and KGB, yes, but Volgin and Zero weren't supposed to be actual Philosophers. Zero wasn't aware of the actual Philosophers' plans in MGS3 (at least according to MGS3 and MGS4).
FTWer said:
Big Boss (John) didn't start his war with the Patriots in MGS3, the ending (& in the database) clearly stated that the CIA was behind the whole mission.
It depends. Liquid Ocelot was never meant to be explained, but I think the Patriots were explained pretty well in MGS3. MGS4 should have fleshed out more the idea that the organization was controlled by AIs by MGS2's time and that's it.
Except Kojima never originally planned on making MGS3. MGS2 was supposed to be the end of the story. I like MGS3's explanation regarding the Patriots, but again, it explained something about MGS2 that was never meant to be explained. Since you're so critical of MGS4's retcons, how can you not see MGS3's explanation of the Philosphers/Patriots as a retcon on MGS2's "consciousness in the white house" explanation? You can say that that was the just the AI spewing BS, but as I said before, that was kinda the point of MGS2. BS that was never meant to be explained.
Kojima wrote himself into a corner with MGS2 that he had to deal with in MGS4 and in MGS3 but to a lesser extent. That MGS4 has retcons should be of absolutely no surprise. The game was tasked with tying up all the loose ends from the entire series, a series whose creator we've known for a long time now has been making things up as he goes along. Furthermore, MGS4 had to try and tie in MGS3, which Kojima had created in avoidance of a direct sequel to MGS2 since he knew he'd written himself into corner, more closely with the other games.
That's why he penned Zero and the others as being the founding members of the Patriots after having been spurred on by the sacrifice of The Boss.
And of course on top of all of this, MGS4 had to have its own plot with its own surprises, twists, and themes.
Under all these circumstances, I don't think Kojima could have concluded the series much better.
The other quote you credited to me in that post wasn't mine.
I think we'll just end up agreeing to disagree in the case of MGS3. There is one point I made that I need to clarify though.
SMZC said:
PROBABLY SPOILERSNo, not at all. It actually ruins its purpose. The idea behind the story of The Boss in MGS3 was that only EVA and Big Boss learnt about the truth behind her acts. EVA was meant to disappear and never appear in the series again (among other reasons because MGS3 was a tribute to the classic James Bond films, and EVA was meant to be the typical Bond girl that you would never see again in the following movies). So, at the end, Big Boss was the only remaining person who knew about The Boss. That's why we had never heard of her before, because she was labeled as a war criminal and there was only one person left who knew about the truth. MGS4 telling us that everyone cared about The Boss (hence creating the Patriots) ruins this, and it's also horrible writting, because the person who is now supposed to be the founder of the Patriots (Zero) never gave a fuck about The Boss in MGS3, but now we're supposed to believe the opposite even though Zero was never fleshed out or developed as a character in MGS3. If Kojima had really wanted to turn Zero as the founder in MGS3, he would have fleshed out his character in MGS3, developing his admiration towards The Boss in MGS3 along with Big Boss', and also explaining in that game that he acquired the Philosophers' instead of having to make a new prequel (PO) just to tell that.
While I don't necessarily disagree with you, I was talking about the relationship between Big Boss and the Boss, not necessarily the overarching story. I find the last scene quite poignant in this regard, even moving. I'm not afraid to admit that the last salute was a bit of a tear jerker for me.
I still maintain the Old Snake character is the best developed in the series. From that first scene in the graveyard to that last scene in the cemetery (before the 'credits') I think the whole thing was pulled off beautifully. High points for me (except for the two I just mentioned) would be the scene in Naomi's lab in act 2, Act 4 in it's entirety (I'm all about respecting peoples opinions but how you can't think Act 4 is the series peak when it comes to building atmosphere and storytelling is beyond me), the microwave corridor of course, and probably a controversial pick, but the very last phase of the Ocelot fight is when it all comes together for me. The music, camera, Snake's movement. It just all comes together for me there, at that point everything became clear.
I don't know, we all have different opinions but I just don't really understand how someone could hold 3 up so high and knock down 4. Both are vastly inferior to 2 and sometimes I'm sorry that Kojima is probably wary of doing something so controversial and potentially upsetting again. That's my main gripe with 4 from a story perspective. But 3 is even worse in that regard, at least imo.
Both 3 and 4 were experiments in characterisation for Kojima, at least that's how I see it. I just feel that Old Snake is the most fully developed and well-realised character in the series and, dare I say it, video gaming in general.
No, not at all. It actually ruins its purpose. The idea behind the story of The Boss in MGS3 was that only EVA and Big Boss learnt about the truth behind her acts. EVA was meant to disappear and never appear in the series again (among other reasons because MGS3 was a tribute to the classic James Bond films, and EVA was meant to be the typical Bond girl that you would never see again in the following movies). So, at the end, Big Boss was the only remaining person who knew about The Boss. That's why we had never heard of her before, because she was labeled as a war criminal and there was only one person left who knew about the truth. MGS4 telling us that everyone cared about The Boss (hence creating the Patriots) ruins this, and it's also horrible writting, because the person who is now supposed to be the founder of the Patriots (Zero) never gave a fuck about The Boss in MGS3, but now we're supposed to believe the opposite even though Zero was never fleshed out or developed as a character in MGS3. If Kojima had really wanted to turn Zero as the founder in MGS3, he would have fleshed out his character in MGS3, developing his admiration towards The Boss in MGS3 along with Big Boss', and also explaining in that game that he acquired the Philosophers' instead of having to make a new prequel (PO) just to tell that.
So only Big Boss and EVA knew about The Boss's mission? What about the people who sent her on the mission? The CIA right? Where does it say that Zero (or anyone else in on Snakes mission) didn't know about it? I'm not saying you are wrong. I just want to see where it says it. I always read the final scene in MGS3 where Naked Snake gets the Big Boss rank as a hint that maybe Zero does know. Just because of the way he and everyone else looks. Obviously it's impossible to tell. It's PS2 graphics and no one says anything, but I always assumed they knew the whole time.
Maybe this is old but finally confirmation that MGS theme was removed from MGS4 because those douchebags thought it would be funny to embarrass Kojima and then put it on youtube that the MGS theme was plagerized.
So only Big Boss and EVA knew about The Boss's mission? What about the people who sent her on the mission? The CIA right? Where does it say that Zero (or anyone else in on Snakes mission) didn't know about it? I'm not saying you are wrong. I just want to see where it says it. I always read the final scene in MGS3 where Naked Snake gets the Big Boss rank as a hint that maybe Zero does know. Just because of the way he and everyone else looks. Obviously it's impossible to tell. It's PS2 graphics and no one says anything, but I always assumed they knew the whole time.
Yup, I've also always kinda assumed that Zero at least knew about it. Not only that scene, but earlier in the game he is seemingly completely unsurprised when The Boss originally defects.
Maybe this is old but finally confirmation that MGS theme was removed from MGS4 because those douchebags thought it would be funny to embarrass Kojima and then put it on youtube that the MGS theme was plagerized.
I went ahead and pulled out parts of the Russian song that were most similar to what's in MGS's theme. (There are three clips here.) They're similar, but I think it's pretty clear the Russian song was an inspiration for elements of the MGS theme, not something Iwase ripped off.
Guess Konami was just too afraid of sticking up for their guys... It's a shame we didn't get the theme in MGS4, but oh well, we'll hear it again someday :lol
I went ahead and pulled out parts of the Russian song that were most similar to what's in MGS's theme. (There are three clips here.) They're similar, but I think it's pretty clear the Russian song was an inspiration for elements of the MGS theme, not something Iwase ripped off.
Guess Konami was just too afraid of sticking up for their guys... It's a shame we didn't get the theme in MGS4, but oh well, we'll hear it again someday :lol
Since you're so critical of MGS4's retcons, how can you not see MGS3's explanation of the Philosphers/Patriots as a retcon on MGS2's "consciousness in the white house" explanation?
I always took that comment as the AI thinking of itself as some kind of god, not literally, but I guess you have a point. Still, this is the kind of thing that I don't mind if they change a little bit for the sake of a sequel. I don't think I'm being hypocrite here, because MGS4 touches upon the issue a little bit and I like its explanation with the idea of the AIs being the original founders' law "taking a life of its own" (probably one of the two or three explanations from MGS4 that I actually like, putting aside the actual identities of those founders, of course).
That MGS4 has retcons should be of absolutely no surprise. The game was tasked with tying up all the loose ends from the entire series, a series whose creator we've known for a long time now has been making things up as he goes along.
Then he shouldn't have tried to tie the loose ends. The biggest problem with MGS4 is that it desperately wants to explain things, no matter how good or bad the explanation is, and also that it tries to explain a lot of things that never needed an explanation to begin with (like Vamp; if you're going to explain Vamp, why not explain Vulcan Raven too? Or the End? Or Volgin?).
Was there really anything from MGS2 that required an explanation? Maybe the Patriots, and Liquid Ocelot if you couldn't get over the fact that Liquid was possessing someone through an arm. A big part of the Patriots issue was explained in MGS3. MGS2's sequel should have just focused on the idea that the organization was controlled by AIs at that time. Explaining Liquid Ocelot couldn't have been done without retcons, I'll give you that (although, as I said, I never wanted an explanation for Liquid Ocelot), so I won't complain about that. But what about everything else? Why did Kojima go out of his way to give faces to the Patriots when we never needed them? Why explain Vamp's powers? Etc, etc. I just wish MGS4 was a completely new and original story that didn't try so hard to give explanations to questions that didn't need or were never supposed to have one; making that kind of sequel in the series was impossible, precisely because of what you said: Kojima makes the storyline as he goes. MGS4 should have continued MGS2 in the sense that Liquid Ocelot needed to be put down and that the Patriots were still controlling America from the shadows (as AIs); everything else should have been a brand new storyline.
freethought said:
Act 4 in it's entirety (I'm all about respecting peoples opinions but how you can't think Act 4 is the series peak when it comes to building atmosphere and storytelling is beyond me), the microwave corridor of course, and probably a controversial pick, but the very last phase of the Ocelot fight is when it all comes together for me.
Act 4 is excellent when you first walk into the heliport and The Best is yet to Come from MGS1 kicks in (I'll admit it, I almost shed some tears), but after that there wasn't anything that I found memorable in any way. I hated Naomi's death for trying to be so touching when I actually just didn't care about it, and I find the Metal Gear battle to be cheap fanservice and, to be honest, stupid (REX destroying RAY? Seriously?!).
I also loved the final battle (the cinematic rather than the playable part), but for the fanservice that is seeing such a well done cinematic showing the classic struggle between Snake and Liquid. What I didn't like was the unneccessary fanservice in the playable part. Again, MGS4, instead of trying to be its own thing, limits itself to reliving memories of previous games of the series.
You mentioned the microwave cut-scene too. While I love the direction of that cut-scene, that moment just doesn't mean anything to me after knowing that no one dies there. What's the point of showing Meryl and Johnny get shot countless times if after everything is over they are perfectly fine? Knowing that Snake will be fine after all that trouble when Ocelot gives him a couple of injections also ruins that cut-scene to me. Kojima really went out of his way to make the microwave corridor seem like certain death to anyone who walked in, but then Snake can recover from it due to a couple of injections? Seriously?
This is a huge problem that I have with the game, MGS4 never seems to take seriously any of the cut-scenes that are supposed to be its most epic moments. One way or another, by the end of the game most (if not all) of them are cheapened. This had never happened before in any game of the series.
Cartman86 said:
So only Big Boss and EVA knew about The Boss's mission? What about the people who sent her on the mission? The CIA right?
Well, the CIA obviously didn't want the truth about that to come out. I meant that Big Boss was the only person left who knew about the truth behind The Boss and that actually cared for her.
Its not explicitly stated that Zero and the others didn't know about the truth, but EVA in the graveyard scene says "no one will ever learn the truth", implying that her and Big Boss are the only persons that know about it besides the people that planned the whole thing. Also, in the cut-scenes where Snake is given the title of Big Boss, when he is about to leave he crosses paths with Para-Medic, Sigint and Zero, and ignores them. You can see in Para-Medic and Sigint's faces that they are totally clueless, and Zero seems to wonder what's going on too. I've always seen that scene as Big Boss breaking away from his past life and friends, with the player knowing that now he resents everyone in the government and that his whole life will be focused on bringing down the same organization that had The Boss killed. You could say that he would tell other people about the truth, but as I said in a previous reply of mine, the whole point of The Boss in MGS3 was that no one knew about her in MGS1 or MGS2 despite of being such a legendary soldier, which meant that Big Boss never told anyone or failed in trying so because the Philosophers/Patriots fooled everyone into believing that The Boss was a war criminal. This made the story of Big Boss even more tragic for me: He dedicated his life to fight against an organization that ruled the world because of the truth behind his old mentor's death, a truth that only he knew.
If they absolutely wanted to explain the whole Liquid Ocelot thing, they should've just confirmed that Ocelot is the child of The Boss and The Sorrow, and therefore inherited the paranormal abilities of his father. Of course, that wouldn't explain why the shit Ocelot chose Liquid's arm, of all people...
If they absolutely wanted to explain the whole Liquid Ocelot thing, they should've just confirmed that Ocelot is the child of The Boss and The Sorrow, and therefore inherited the paranormal abilities of his father. Of course, that wouldn't explain why the shit Ocelot chose Liquid's arm, of all people...
I guess those of us who were expecting MGS4 to respect the idea that MGS2's Liquid was the real Liquid
(instead of a mental doppelganger)
while explaining all the "why do you think I chose Ocelot as my host?" bullshit were in for a disappointment. That's why I can't really blame MGS4's explanation for Liquid Ocelot, despite of being a retcon as big as the rest of the game's.
I guess those of us who were expecting MGS4 to respect the idea that MGS2's Liquid was the real Liquid
(instead of a mental doppelganger)
while explaining all the "why do you think I chose Ocelot as my host?" bullshit were in for a disappointment. That's why I can't really blame MGS4's explanation for Liquid Ocelot, despite of being a retcon as big as the rest of the game's.
I came out of MGS2 expecting a more rational explanation than Liquid's soul was possessing Ocelot's body so I was actually quite satisfied by the explanation. The idea that it was simply one more double cross by Ocelot his final one, was just so much more acceptable to me.
It fit in perfectly with Ocelot's character too, I thought. By the end of the final battle I was in no doubt that it was Ocelot all along and Liquid had died in Shadow Moses. That fight wasn't about rivalry or revenge. It was about the need for an ending. It struck a chord, just like the endings of 2 and 3.
I came out of MGS2 expecting a more rational explanation than Liquid's soul was possessing Ocelot's body so I was actually quite satisfied by the explanation. The idea that it was simply one more double cross by Ocelot his final one, was just so much more acceptable to me.
It fit in perfectly with Ocelot's character too, I thought. By the end of the final battle I was in no doubt that it was Ocelot all along and Liquid had died in Shadow Moses. That fight wasn't about rivalry or revenge. It was about the need for an ending. It struck a chord, just like the endings of 2 and 3.
Well, technically, it was the Liquid doppelganger the one in control of Ocelot's body, so the battle was about rivalry and revenge too. For all intents and purposes, MGS4's Liquid Ocelot was like having the real Liquid. Except that it wasn't the real Liquid.
I can't say I'm 100% satisfied with MGS4's explanation of Liquid Ocelot, but yes, I agree with you on that it's convincing and satisfying at some levels. I'm pissed off at the fact that MGS2's Ocelot, which is one of my favorite villains in history, went from a villain to a hero, but I have to admit that MGS4 gave him more depth as a character than MGS2 ever did (despite of the actual Ocelot not appearing for more than 10 seconds in MGS4).
Well, technically, it was the Liquid doppelganger the one in control of Ocelot's body, so the battle was about rivalry and revenge too. For all intents and purposes, MGS4's Liquid Ocelot was like having the real Liquid. Except that it wasn't the real Liquid.
I can't say I'm 100% satisfied with MGS4's explanation of Liquid Ocelot, but yes, I agree with you on that it's convincing and satisfying at some levels. I'm pissed off at the fact that MGS2's Ocelot, which is one of my favorite villains in history, went from a villain to a hero, but I have to admit that MGS4 gave him more depth as a character than MGS2 ever did (despite of the actual Ocelot not appearing for more than 10 seconds in MGS4).
I finished the game last night and absolutely loved it, so many amazing and memorable scenes in both gameplay and story perspective, I really hope that Kojima is able to do a new game series that is as amazing as the Metal Gear series now that he is done with it.
I went ahead and pulled out parts of the Russian song that were most similar to what's in MGS's theme. (There are three clips here.) They're similar, but I think it's pretty clear the Russian song was an inspiration for elements of the MGS theme, not something Iwase ripped off.
Guess Konami was just too afraid of sticking up for their guys... It's a shame we didn't get the theme in MGS4, but oh well, we'll hear it again someday :lol
Actually, the new EGM has an interview with Norihiko Hibino, the "other" MGS composer, who answered a question about that.
EGM: "You mentioned something about Kojima wanting old Metal Gear music in there- but many fans were disappointed that the main theme of the previous games never shows up in MGS4."
NH: "The truth is, Konami [had legal problems with] Russian composers who said we stole their music. They didn't, actually, But Konami was too sensitive about the situation and just decided not to use that music in the game."
The exclusion of the main theme - without irony or any kind of self-depricating reference - detracted from the experience, in my view. It didn't help that the story was a pile of humourless, overly-sentimental anime-inspired horseshite as well.
With all the positive reviews that came out for it, I couldn't help but shrug off that "elephant in the room" feeling all the way through. I was waiting for the game to really open up and surprise me with something out of the ordinary, but instead, it relied on the return to Shadow Moses to remind you of all the things that made the old games great, rather than offering something new itself. I thought the first three were funny, dramatic, even poignant at times - but this let me down on just about every level. What a waste of a technically brilliant game engine.
The exclusion of the main theme - without irony or any kind of self-depricating reference - detracted from the experience, in my view. It didn't help that the story was a pile of humourless, overly-sentimental anime-inspired horseshite as well.
With all the positive reviews that came out for it, I couldn't help but shrug off that "elephant in the room" feeling all the way through. I was waiting for the game to really open up and surprise me with something out of the ordinary, but instead, it relied on the return to Shadow Moses to remind you of all the things that made the old games great, rather than offering something new itself. I thought the first three were funny, dramatic, even poignant at times - but this let me down on just about every level. What a waste of a technically brilliant game engine.
i'm reading through the critiscms and it's crazy how a lot of my favorite parts were the bane of others
rex vs ray
shadow moses
the final fight
the epilouge
then again i pretty much loved the whole game the whole way through but these are some of my favorite moments in gaming period and ive been at it for 15 years
i'm reading through the critiscms and it's crazy how a lot of my favorite parts were the bane of others
rex vs ray
shadow moses
the final fight
the epilouge
then again i pretty much loved the whole game the whole way through but these are some of my favorite moments in gaming period and ive been at it for 15 years
Some of my favorite parts as well. I love the excuses they use for hating on the Rex vs. Ray fight, Ray is a Rex killer so its stupid that Rex wins, fucking idiots. Apparently they have no problem with Snake running circles around a giant nuclear bi-pedal tank with a little rocket launcher but Rex beating Ray is crossing the line.
But, at the very least, I do feel the game engine could've been better utilized. It hardly felt like an MGS game to me, what with all the original gameplay conventions (birds eye view POV, radar, limited range of weapons) being stripped away entirely. I think it could've been used for a new IP, or at least a new MG sub-series. I liked the game, but found the story and characters tedious - especially Snake, with his endless, muccussy grumblings. This never happened before.
And whatever happened to the brilliant sense of humour they built up in MGS3? It all felt so bleak this time around, and it really didn't have to be.
It's only retcon'ing if you decide to interpret certain things a certain way. Lots of the things that SMZC mentioned are opened to different interpretations, they are not facts. On top of that, there are lots of assumptions made on what actually happened between Snake Eater, Portable Ops and MG. It's a crazy story, but if you stick to what The Boss said in mgs3, everything sticks together.
Somewhat off topic, but does anyone know the chance of another Metal Gear Solid for the PSP? I know some didn't like it, but I rather enjoyed it. The hand held seems to have picked up steam in Japan over the past year and I believe portable ops sold respectably?
Just started doing a second play through of this yesterday. Got through the first 2 acts in one very long sitting. This game is just as incredible as I remember it being back in June .
Yes, he's referring to Snake being Big Boss' doppelganger (or rather, Naked Snake's).
BigBoss said:
Some of my favorite parts as well. I love the excuses they use for hating on the Rex vs. Ray fight, Ray is a Rex killer so its stupid that Rex wins, fucking idiots. Apparently they have no problem with Snake running circles around a giant nuclear bi-pedal tank with a little rocket launcher but Rex beating Ray is crossing the line.
Pardon me, but the whole purpose of RAY is to be an anti-REX Metal Gear. The thing should be able to annihilate dozens of them without a scratch; that's its fucking purpose. But now MGS4 tells us that RAY can't destroy a single REX without living to tell the story? We're not even talking about a brand new REX, we're talking about one that was almost destroyed and abandoned for years. I mean, it's not like MGS4's strongest point is its coherence, but... lol.
With Snake defeating a Metal Gear with a stinger missile launcher you could at least say that a Metal Gear wasn't designed to battle against ordinary troops; using a Metal Gear to beat a single soldier would be like using a rocket launcher to kill a fly. On the other hand, Snake using REX to battle against RAY puts Snake (or rather: should put him) in a disadvantage, because he's turning himself into the target that is RAY's speciality. And still, RAY can't destroy REX without RAY itself being destroyed too. As a huge Metal Gear RAY fan, I felt insulted by the sheer idiocy of this.
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Yes, he's referring to Snake being Big Boss' doppelganger (or rather, Naked Snake's).
Wow, someone's bitter.
Pardon me, but the whole purpose of RAY is to be an anti-REX Metal Gear. The thing should be able to annihilate dozens of them without a scratch; that's its fucking purpose. But now MGS4 tells us that RAY can't destroy a single REX without living to tell the story? We're not even talking about a brand new REX, we're talking about one that was almost destroyed and abandoned for years. I mean, it's not like MGS4's strongest point is its coherence, but... lol.
With Snake defeating a Metal Gear with a stinger missile launcher you could at least say that a Metal Gear wasn't designed to battle against ordinary troops; using a Metal Gear to beat a single soldier would be like using a rocket launcher to kill a fly. On the other hand, Snake using REX to battle against RAY puts Snake (or rather: should put him) in a disadvantage, because he's turning himself into the target that is RAY's speciality. And still, RAY can't destroy REX without RAY itself being destroyed too. As a huge Metal Gear RAY fan, I felt insulted by the sheer idiocy of this.
The entire scenario is sort of idiotic, but it's simply just another way to drive home the whole "inferior" one besting the "superior." I don't take it too seriously.
On a side note, I agree with most of your sentiments on the retcons that were introduced in MPO/MGS4. But the thing you mentioned about
Zero "not giving a damn" about the Boss in MGS3 isn't true. They were indeed old friends, they served in the SAS together. In fact, The Boss was the one that helped Zero get the FOX Unit trial green-lighted. They weren't portrayed as extremely buddy-buddy throughout the game itself, but I'm just saying the precedent for their mutual respect and affection was present at that time. It didn't come out of nowhere in MGS4.
