VegaShinra
Junior Member
Trophy patch or not for tomorrow, I'm playing this game all day tomorrow. Just in memory of it.
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Metal Gear Solid 4 |OT| No Place to Hide, No Time for a Legend to FoxDie
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Ether_Snake
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Catalix said:
Imagine if they had changed it to "David and Hal".
Also,
in the ending Snake says basically nothing at all, during the whole damn sequence, which is unusual because Snake usually asks a lot of questions, so it shows this scene was probably made very very late in development, with Big Boss' voice acting added quite late, with no replies from Snake. It's basically a one-sided sequence where Snake does nothing, only Big Boss talks talks talks and the end.
ShinoguTakeruKoeru
Member
I may be wrong, but I could have sworn that Tokyo Game Show 2007, somewhere Hideo Kojima remarked that he'd cast Chikao Otsuka, Akio Otsuka's father, for a certain role and kinda set off a red flag for me.Ether_Snake said:
^ haha great pic.
It's always bugged me that no interviewers have asked Kojima about the song and its meaning. I'd really like to see him discuss the original ending in-depth and how late in development it was scrapped. I think he probably really wanted it to end that way...or at least more than he lets on.
Also wish the Big Mama escort mission was able to make it, since it would've added some length to the Act. It feels kind of abrupt as-is with the cutscene-gameplay ratio.
It's always bugged me that no interviewers have asked Kojima about the song and its meaning. I'd really like to see him discuss the original ending in-depth and how late in development it was scrapped. I think he probably really wanted it to end that way...or at least more than he lets on.
Also wish the Big Mama escort mission was able to make it, since it would've added some length to the Act. It feels kind of abrupt as-is with the cutscene-gameplay ratio.
Shalashaska
Member
Woooooooo, me too. My first HD/Surround Sound experience, simply amazing.RoboPlato said:
Ether_Snake
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ShinoguTakeruKoeru said:
I'm sure
Big Boss was always supposed to be in MGS4, but I don't believe he was supposed to show up in the flesh to talk to Snake at a graveyard for like 30 minutes with Snake saying nothing during the whole scene. I think he was probably going to talk to Snake as JD, before the ending. I'd really like to hear Kojima on what MGS4 was until they changed the ending. Remember Kojima said during MGS4' development that they were going to use a special "skin and bones" special effect for "a certain group". This never happened. But in MGS2, the Campbell AI at the end has translucent skin and you can see his skull underneath while he talks. I bet this was supposed to be for The Patriots in MGS4.
I get the impression that originally it was supposed to be Ocelot who hooked up Big Boss to the AI system, not Zero. Eva speaks about how Zero saw Big Boss as an irreplaceable friend, someone he idolized, etc., but in reality there is no indication of this at all. This is an exact description of Ocelot. And why would Zero hook up Big Boss to the AI after "losing all faith in humanity" and being betrayed by Big Boss? Makes, no, sense. But it makes sense if it was Ocelot who did so.
In MPO, it is clear that Zero is using Big Boss for his own ends, and at the end as soon as the Philosophers are dealt with the first thing on his mind is to clone Big Boss for his own goals. It was Ocelot who insisted on having Big Boss being part of their organization "so that together we can become the true Patriots", something he requested otherwise he wasn't going to join Zero, and he's the only one who actually seems interested in truly creating the world The Boss, his mother, envisioned. And heck, Gene himself said in MPO that it was Zero who planned the events of Snake Eater and The Boss' death. The way Eva describes Zero in MGS4 also makes it sound like he was always only using The Boss and Big Boss' image for his own end.
I think that the original plot was probably something along the lines of what Eva describes; Zero creates and leads The Patriots, but for his own personal ideals, while Ocelot wanted to create the world The Boss envisioned, and saw Big Boss as an icon, their true successor to The Boss. Zero creates the AI we know of in MGS2, which perfectly matches what Eva described of Zero's intentions (an orderly rule, etc.). But her explanation of why Zero would hook up Big Boss to the AI makes no sense considering all the above. He wasn't Big Boss' friend, he had set up the Snake Eater mission, he was behind The Boss' death, he used Big Boss for his own ends, he wanted an orderly rule. He was the complete antithesis of The Boss and Big Boss. There is no way he considered Big Boss an irreplaceable friend or idolized him. Ocelot did.
My guess is Zero was the "digitized sense" that was at the core of The Patriots we have seen in MGS2. He was probably supposed to be dead, with only his digitized sense living on as the AI's core. After MGS2, Ocelot and Eva, still wanting to create the world The Boss envisioned and doing away with Zero, look for Big Boss' body to "transform" The Patriots into "The True Patriots" by hooking HIM up to the AI, replacing Zero's digitized sense by Big Boss' digitized sense; basically, a way to fight Zero using Big Boss. This would still fit perfectly fine with MGS4' story with practically no alterations except a few spoken lines.
After hooking up Big Boss to the AI (John Doe), the AI mutated in a way they didn't anticipate, and it gave birth to the War Economy. Notice how the AI of MGS2 is very "Zero"-like, yet the one of MGS4 is very "Big Boss"-like? It fits exactly with the theme Kojima said MGS4 would be about, which it turned out NOT to be about; the idea that you can digitize someone's sense, but not their will.
The "war economy" is exactly what you would expect from the above scenario; Ocelot and Eva try to "change" the AI by digitizing Big Boss' sense to replace Zero's, but the AI sets out to basically creates a "world of perpetual conflict", the war economy; a sort of artificial version of Big Boss' goals towards the end of his life. It fits perfectly with the whole "you can digitize someone's sense but not their will" theme. Like Eva said, both Zero and Big Boss misinterpreted The Boss' will. And what we have seen of the AI in MGS2 and MGS4 as a result, illustrates this. It fits with the idea of letting the world be, of Eva and Ocelot setting out to destroy The Patriots once and for all rather than supporting the flawed organization, etc.
I think adding Big Boss in the flesh was a very late addition, and Zero was probably never supposed to be there. That whole scene is totally out of place, Snake says nothing, Zero either, it screams "late addition", and the things Eva says about Zero hooking up Big Boss to the AI's core makes no sense, it's an outright contradiction of even MPO which was made during MGS4' development. But the idea that MGS2' AI had Zero has its model, and MGS4' had Big Boss' as its model, makes perfect sense, and fits with the theme Kojima said MGS4 would be about.
I get the impression that originally it was supposed to be Ocelot who hooked up Big Boss to the AI system, not Zero. Eva speaks about how Zero saw Big Boss as an irreplaceable friend, someone he idolized, etc., but in reality there is no indication of this at all. This is an exact description of Ocelot. And why would Zero hook up Big Boss to the AI after "losing all faith in humanity" and being betrayed by Big Boss? Makes, no, sense. But it makes sense if it was Ocelot who did so.
In MPO, it is clear that Zero is using Big Boss for his own ends, and at the end as soon as the Philosophers are dealt with the first thing on his mind is to clone Big Boss for his own goals. It was Ocelot who insisted on having Big Boss being part of their organization "so that together we can become the true Patriots", something he requested otherwise he wasn't going to join Zero, and he's the only one who actually seems interested in truly creating the world The Boss, his mother, envisioned. And heck, Gene himself said in MPO that it was Zero who planned the events of Snake Eater and The Boss' death. The way Eva describes Zero in MGS4 also makes it sound like he was always only using The Boss and Big Boss' image for his own end.
I think that the original plot was probably something along the lines of what Eva describes; Zero creates and leads The Patriots, but for his own personal ideals, while Ocelot wanted to create the world The Boss envisioned, and saw Big Boss as an icon, their true successor to The Boss. Zero creates the AI we know of in MGS2, which perfectly matches what Eva described of Zero's intentions (an orderly rule, etc.). But her explanation of why Zero would hook up Big Boss to the AI makes no sense considering all the above. He wasn't Big Boss' friend, he had set up the Snake Eater mission, he was behind The Boss' death, he used Big Boss for his own ends, he wanted an orderly rule. He was the complete antithesis of The Boss and Big Boss. There is no way he considered Big Boss an irreplaceable friend or idolized him. Ocelot did.
My guess is Zero was the "digitized sense" that was at the core of The Patriots we have seen in MGS2. He was probably supposed to be dead, with only his digitized sense living on as the AI's core. After MGS2, Ocelot and Eva, still wanting to create the world The Boss envisioned and doing away with Zero, look for Big Boss' body to "transform" The Patriots into "The True Patriots" by hooking HIM up to the AI, replacing Zero's digitized sense by Big Boss' digitized sense; basically, a way to fight Zero using Big Boss. This would still fit perfectly fine with MGS4' story with practically no alterations except a few spoken lines.
After hooking up Big Boss to the AI (John Doe), the AI mutated in a way they didn't anticipate, and it gave birth to the War Economy. Notice how the AI of MGS2 is very "Zero"-like, yet the one of MGS4 is very "Big Boss"-like? It fits exactly with the theme Kojima said MGS4 would be about, which it turned out NOT to be about; the idea that you can digitize someone's sense, but not their will.
The "war economy" is exactly what you would expect from the above scenario; Ocelot and Eva try to "change" the AI by digitizing Big Boss' sense to replace Zero's, but the AI sets out to basically creates a "world of perpetual conflict", the war economy; a sort of artificial version of Big Boss' goals towards the end of his life. It fits perfectly with the whole "you can digitize someone's sense but not their will" theme. Like Eva said, both Zero and Big Boss misinterpreted The Boss' will. And what we have seen of the AI in MGS2 and MGS4 as a result, illustrates this. It fits with the idea of letting the world be, of Eva and Ocelot setting out to destroy The Patriots once and for all rather than supporting the flawed organization, etc.
I think adding Big Boss in the flesh was a very late addition, and Zero was probably never supposed to be there. That whole scene is totally out of place, Snake says nothing, Zero either, it screams "late addition", and the things Eva says about Zero hooking up Big Boss to the AI's core makes no sense, it's an outright contradiction of even MPO which was made during MGS4' development. But the idea that MGS2' AI had Zero has its model, and MGS4' had Big Boss' as its model, makes perfect sense, and fits with the theme Kojima said MGS4 would be about.
Catalix said:
;_;
:lol
ShinoguTakeruKoeru
Member
Ether_Snake said:
Zero didn't organize The Boss' execution, though. According to this anyhow. And I think you mean Big Boss was meant to be shown towards the end, after JD gets wiped out, during the NAOMI IN FRONT OF A BRIGHT BLUE SKY video. I'd had enough of Naomi, and by extension Otacon's crying, by then so I'd have preferred Big Boss belting out the exposition. And maybe then we wouldn't have had the OCELOT USED HYPNOTISM TO ACT LIKE LIQUID angle and would've gotten the full blown Sorrow-esque possession angle they made from setting it up in MGS3.
:lolBlader 5489 said:
RadioHeadAche
Member
NeoUltima said:
I thought so. Not surprising, really, but playing MGS1 in MGO will feel more authentic now.
ShinoguTakeruKoeru
Member
So yeah, it's raining.
Kinda weird you know. MGS4's 1 year anniversary, and there's rain and thunder here in New York. :lol
Kinda weird you know. MGS4's 1 year anniversary, and there's rain and thunder here in New York. :lol
ShinoguTakeruKoeru
Member
Maybe the trophy check could run by the ranking screen and it'd catch all the ones that are already attained. :\KTallguy said:
ShinoguTakeruKoeru
Member
Well he's not here in Times Square signing any copies this year so...Datrio said:
btw, how about we do a rollcall for GAF members who were there for the Virgin Megastore signing, unless someone can dig up that list that they'd prepared last year? ':3
Cirekiller
Member
I was there, around 20th on line. Fun day! Got to meet a lot of cool people.ShinoguTakeruKoeru said:
Bearillusion
Banned
People are still holding their breath for trophies. Not gonna happen.
I want to be wrong
ShinoguTakeruKoeru
Member
I clearly was there, why else would I have asked for roll call. Also wanted an excuse to re-link my video I had for the signing here. I was handing out bottles of water to the first couple peoples in line because why not. I was subsisting on Nature Valley bars and mcdonalds food from 1 pm to midnight. :lol
I remember one dude got his cardboard box signed.
I remember one dude got his cardboard box signed.
Ephemeris
Member
ShinoguTakeruKoeru said:
Nice vid. My camera died while we were in line signing line inside.
Then it resumed functionality once we got up the escalator where they were serving those energy drinks. **
Meetup thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11459334&postcount=1
** Fun fact. I won 36 of those drinks (2nd place prize) from the contest they were having that night. I still have about... 30 of them left. :lol
ShinoguTakeruKoeru
Member
Haha, sweet. Not talking about the drinks, but hey I got the orange flavor one. Was all right.Ephemeris said:
My one regret from that night is that I didn't ask Aki Saito to sign my MGS4 cover as well. Who else that night knew that he was Aki Saito?! Well, besides the GAF'ers anyway.
BTW, HOLY CRAP I'm in this one shot you took that day.
I'm the one holding the red cup towards the right. You can't see it there or in the video, but I was wearing an MGS2 shirt. ':3 Everyone in that vicinity was playing Portable Ops, I just had the trailers to fall back on. :lol
If the Trophy Patch went over your already done accomplishments, right before that patch hit I would download the most awesomest save of awesomey awesomey and get every fucking rank in existence, and then download the patch be 100% trophied da fuck out.
If you know what I mean.
That's why companies now lock saves, or make it so you can't get trophies unless you start a new save. I personally don't give a shit and I hate it when saved games are locked so that people can get their epeen jollies. I just want to play the way I want to play.
If you know what I mean.
That's why companies now lock saves, or make it so you can't get trophies unless you start a new save. I personally don't give a shit and I hate it when saved games are locked so that people can get their epeen jollies. I just want to play the way I want to play.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
KTallguy said:
This. Locked saves this gen, and copy controlled saves last gen. Completely worthless side effects of a system that's forgotten why we're playing in the first place. Fun. Who gives a crap if people want to cheat the trophy system but trophy whores? Leave the rest of us out of it.
DevilWillcry
Member
I hope we still get trophies. How hard can it be to patch them in?
Ballistics
Member
From the second Big Boss speaks to Snake in Metal Gear 2, this was going to be the ending.
BIG BOSS: WHOEVER WINS, THE BATTLE WILL NOT END. THE LOSER SHALL BE FREED FROM THE BATTLEFIELD...BUT THE WINNER STAYS. HE'LL BE A WARRIOR UNTIL HIS DEATH.
SNAKE: THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS.I...LOVE LIFE.
BIG BOSS: SNAKE...I SHALL FREE YOU FROM YOUR AGONY. MY GRATEFULNESS AS YOUR FORMER SUPERVISOR...
SNAKE: I DON'T NEED YOUR HELP!
They had to meet face to face again. They were both right, but also both wrong. Snake did need his help, because he needed to live ("live outside" - Big Boss) and Big Boss didn't need to kill Snake to do this.
Always was the ending. Always will be.
Ballistics
Member
Ether_Snake said:
This makes no sense???
Big Boss was not JD and he couldn't communicate through JD. He was just kept in a coma by JD and his body was used to access JD.
Before Zero used Big Boss' DNA to create clones there was no bad blood between them, he was his commanding officer and had shared knowledge and feelings about The Boss. And we don't know anything about their relationship between MGS3 and PO.
Zero didn't hook Big Boss to JD because he was his friend or enemy, it was because of what he stood for.
JD has really nothing to do with Ocelot. It was Zero and Sigint.
Zero didn't plan to kill The Boss, the CIA did. Why would he want to carry on her will if he planned to kill her? He was just following orders in MGS3, just like Big Boss. And is most probably one of the reasons they parted company, Big Boss finding out.
The AI mutation is nothing to do with Big Boss (reasons above). If it was, then the war economy would have been happening during MGS1 and MGS2, it wasn't. The System didn't even exist then.
It mutated because Zero had grown old and could no longer input his will. JD being left alone started to act by it's self, working out how to function on it's own. One of the tests being the S3 plan in MGS2. It's like Hal in 2001 or Kryten in Red Dwarf, breaking through their own code and creating their own.
JD is not Zero or Big Boss, it's an AI that was controlled by Zero to rule the world, that then starts thinking for it's self (when Zero couldn't control it any longer). Sorry for repeating myself, just making sure
Why do people believe Kojima when he says things like "This is my last game" or "I was going to have Snake and Otacon executed"??? You're playing a game about information control, but you can't work out when someone is messing with your head
People need to spend more time with what is actually there, than what is not or what could have been.Honestly, Ether_Snake's crazy conjecture posts lost all credibility after MGS4 came out. They're fun to read, but mostly just come off as wild and frustrated. Its the same with almost all of those old MGS1-3 theorists who conjured up all sorts of ideas, and got angry after 4 didn't follow suit with what they were thinking.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Says the man with the Cyborg Raiden = Kyle Schneider avatarBallistics said:
Ether's theories and scenarios are pretty damn awesome and a lot of fun to read. But at this point, essentially fanfic.
However, what he's trying to say makes perfect sense, in context. He's just theorizing what alterations Kojima probably made to the MGS4 storyline because certain things seem to directly contradict information presented in earlier games... Specifically MPO, a game in which the storyline was created in conjunction with MGS4.
For instance, the implication that
Zero orchestrated the Boss' death
freethought
Member
Darkpen said:
My favourite pre-MGS4 theory had to be Ocelot inheriting some latent channeling abilities from the Sorrow. I had a total wtf! moment reading through some random hype thread when I saw how many people thought that sounded sensible.
But everyones entitled to there own opinion. It's the feeling of betrayal that some have because that turned out not to be the case that rubs me the wrong way. Personally I had no theories but ever since I finished MGS2 I had two conditions. The first being that it shouldn't be supernatural and the second being that it couldn't just be nanomachines.
I was pretty satisfied with the explanation, it had a nice Manchurian Candidate feel to it. The single most retarded complaint I've heard about it was that since Kojima hadn't already set MGS up as a world that contained hypnosis and brainwashing, that it may as well have been supernatural. I mean, those things actually exist, maybe not to the extent they do in MGS4, but in some form or another.
The best part about the whole Liquid Ocelot thing to me was that last fight. Everyone rags on it for being all about nostalgia, but as far as I was concerned what was happening there was the Liquid personality was slowly retreating until eventually you were just fighting Ocelot. By the time that fight was over I became convinced that it was all some kind of trick and of course Liquid was dead. It wasn't just the music either, the changes in Ocelot's stance and fighting style were just as big a clue. Plus, I'll admit that I've always had a problem using the traditional MGS control scheme in a one on one fist/sword fight so I was glad your movement had been restricted to a more conventional one on one scheme. Plus it really just built on the CQC and lock-on systmes already built into the game. It's easily my favourite final boss fight in the series for those reasons alone.
GeneralIroh
Member
I think trophies are overrated. The emblems you earn already serve the same purpose as the trophies so adding anymore would be redundant. If you actually wanna play the game then just play it don't wait for some superficial pat on the back. I'd rather have gameplay updates like new guns, maps,secret cut scenes, scenarios, etc.
GeneralIroh
Member
I found ocelot's personality to be really inconsistent because in mgs2 he was basically the patriot's bitch and then all of a sudden he trying to free the world. Seemed retarded that he wasted his time with solidus when in the end he was accomplishing the same thing solidus tried to do.
It seemed like they tried to force the anti hero thing onto ocelot.
It seemed like they tried to force the anti hero thing onto ocelot.
Imm0rt4l said:
How is MGO playing these days...I was into it for a little bit, then wandered from it and never returned...
Im debating on diving into either the already established hardcore crazy world of SOCOM and getting called a NOOB and kicked out a lot...or doing the same for MGO..since my skill levels are basically 0 in MGO, I think im a lost cause at this point.
...or I should just play through the campaign once more for fun.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
Imm0rt4l said:
Oh yeah.. forgot about that teaser in that one trailer where it showed snake with the frog on his head in a wintery ara (that wasn't winter wharehouse). Not to mention the level that is labeled ??? that has been locked for a while.... hmmm.
Still hoping for single player content.
GodofWine said:
honestly I haven't played it much lately, played it yesterday after not playing for weeks. But from the time I played, I saw that there were still plenty of people playing, 2 full servers and some others not completely filled. find a lot of the old maps still being played, but I'm surprised to see just how many people play scene maps, in comparison to the last. I haven't played the new match type that came out, just some unranked matches, TDM, sneak, and team sneak. Everybody lost there ranks some months ago with scene, probably because there were far too many people with fox, foxhound ranks. The ranks seems more difficult to get now, I'd imagine that stat whoring in survival modes isn't as bad nowadays. Coolio could probably tell you more, as I'm sure he still plays regularly. Seeing some of the new equipment makes me want to grind for some reward points, though I don't know if survival is still rife with glitchers.
does gaf have a survival team?
MoonsaultSlayer said:
I'd like to see single player content myself, but from what I hear, the latest podcast made no mention of it. I can't say I really care for the ipod songs, or in game podcasts(though I haven't tried the latter).
infinityBCRT
Member
You pretty much summed up my confusion with MGS2 lovers who hate 3/4 and say that Kojima lost his way. They've gotten so wrapped up in what they think should have happened.Darkpen said:
GeneralIroh
Member
You should give it a try. Although you will encounter a lot of box dancers. Think of it as bunny hoping or dolphin diving but with the cardboard box. Its a game breaking mechanic they need to fix.GodofWine said:
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