Support NeoGAF

[Imm0rt4l]

You should give it a try. Although you will encounter a lot of box dancers. Think of it has bunny hoping or dolphin diving but with the cardboard box. Its a game breaking mechanic they need to fix.

yea, boxing is a big deal if you wanna be competitive. doubt it'll go away, it was exploited heavily in OG MGO.

 

[GeneralIroh]

yea, boxing is a big deal if you wanna be competitive. doubt it'll go away, it was exploited heavily in OG MGO.

I just wonder what went through the game developer's mind when the exploit was discovered. How the hell is a it a valid game mechanic that they seem to ignore to fix? Dice and Valve at least fixed the issues in their game.

 

[Blader]

I found ocelot's personality to be really inconsistent because in mgs2 he was basically the patriot's bitch and then all of a sudden he trying to free the world. Seemed retarded that he wasted his time with solidus when in the end he was accomplishing the same thing solidus tried to do.
It seemed like they tried to force the anti hero thing onto ocelot.

Liquid was crazy and Solidus was on a wild goose chase. BB is probably the only person Ocelot trusts to lead a Patriot-free world.

 

[Crazymoogle]

I just wonder what went through the game developer's mind when the exploit was discovered. How the hell is a it a valid game mechanic that they seem to ignore to fix? Dice and Valve at least fixed the issues in their game.

I can't speak for Kojipro but game updates for balancing is really not part of the DNA for many Japanese console developers. Look at Ridge Racer 7; crippling, exploitable, easily fixed bugs for an always-online game, and they've never patched it. I just don't think they budget in the time and money for game fixes unless it's a crash.

MGO is a bit of a special case - we see some kinds of updates - but I do wonder how much actual engineering support it has.

EDIT: I'm speaking anecdotes of course, Namco has a decidely worse online record than Konami...

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I just wonder what went through the game developer's mind when the exploit was discovered. How the hell is a it a valid game mechanic that they seem to ignore to fix? Dice and Valve at least fixed the issues in their game.

yea it can be pretty stupid, I guess the idea is to give the box more than one practical use as hiding in a box isn't always a good option, and it's almost humorous but takes away from the whole stealth aspect of the game. If I get the drop on you, I should get the kill, you shouldn't run around in a box like a chicken with it's head cut off, find me, pop out the box and then kill me.... it doesn't make sense. But I guess if you can't beat em' join em', I think a good way to practice it would probably be headshot matches, preferably unranked.

 

[GeneralIroh]

yea it can be pretty stupid, I guess the idea is to give the box more than one practical use as hiding in a box isn't always a good option, and it's almost humorous but takes away from the whole stealth aspect of the game. If I get the drop on you, I should get the kill, you shouldn't run around in a box like a chicken with it's head cut off, find me, pop out the box and then kill me.... it doesn't make sense. But I guess if you can't beat em' join em', I think a good way to practice it would probably be headshot matches, preferably unranked.

I use it a lot because I have to but I would rather not have to play that way and just move around like an actual soldier. I have a feeling some people put stickers or dots on their screens to help acquire quick headshots.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I can't speak for Kojipro but game updates for balancing is really not part of the DNA for many Japanese console developers. Look at Ridge Racer 7; crippling, exploitable, easily fixed bugs for an always-online game, and they've never patched it. I just don't think they budget in the time and money for game fixes unless it's a crash.

MGO is a bit of a special case - we see some kinds of updates - but I do wonder how much actual engineering support it has.

ya mgo get's a lot of balance updates. a nerf for the mk23 and cqc ex is suppose to be coming out soon if you're familiar with the game.

 

[GodofWine]

I use it a lot because I have to but I would rather not have to play that way and just move around like an actual soldier. I have a feeling some people put stickers or dots on their screens to help acquire quick headshots.

Thats a good idea.....

I just remembered it was the huge amount of body damage required in the game to kill someone that sorta turned me off...Im one of those "why are headshots so over rated in so many games" people...but I still thought it was fun and offered a lot of different game types not offered in other shooters (sneak etc)

 

[-COOLIO-]

yea it can be pretty stupid, I guess the idea is to give the box more than one practical use as hiding in a box isn't always a good option, and it's almost humorous but takes away from the whole stealth aspect of the game. If I get the drop on you, I should get the kill, you shouldn't run around in a box like a chicken with it's head cut off, find me, pop out the box and then kill me.... it doesn't make sense. But I guess if you can't beat em' join em', I think a good way to practice it would probably be headshot matches, preferably unranked.

it may not be realistic, but in mgo you almost always die because of a lack of skill and that's what i like about it. if you get the drop on someone you have a good chance at killing them but you still have to be fast. the box helps to always keep it interesting, if you were really good you could be surrounded and still make it out alive snake-in-mgs3-vs-the-ocelots-style.

 

[GeneralIroh]

it may not be realistic, but in mgo you almost always die because of a lack of skill and that's what i like about it. if you get the drop on someone you have a good chance at killing them but you still have to be fast. the box helps to always keep it interesting, if you were really good you could be surrounded and still make it out alive snake-in-mgs3-vs-the-ocelots-style.

One could say the same thing about the bunny hopping in counter strike and dolphin diving in battlefield 2. They were fixed for good reasons and it improved the overall game play experience.

 

[-COOLIO-]

One could say the same thing about the bunny hopping in counter strike and dolphin diving in battlefield 2. They were fixed for good reasons and it improved the overall game play experience.

never saw bunny hopping in cs so i guess i played it too late but i can see how that would look really ridiculous, the boxing in mgo is mostly just crouching with a few frames showing a box. if it were just a crouch button instead i don't think most people would care.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

it may not be realistic, but in mgo you almost always die because of a lack of skill and that's what i like about it. if you get the drop on someone you have a good chance at killing them but you still have to be fast. the box helps to always keep it interesting, if you were really good you could be surrounded and still make it out alive snake-in-mgs3-vs-the-ocelots-style.

I hear you, I get in a box once I miss a shot and the other hops in the box....but it goes both ways. you say you may get killed by someone who lacks skill, well what about skill involved in surveying the environment? the box negates the need for stealth at all, which is funny since that was its intended purpose to begin with. I did it in the original MGO all the time, ran around killhouse A/B in a box found someone popped out, side stepped and then headshotted people who shot at me first and were hiding in the grass. Sure I'm skilled in aiming, but is that really fair when the other is playing the game as it was intended? I can't fault people for boxing and I intend to use it myself seeing as it's become essential.

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

The main issue for me in MGO will be the lack of rank matching in Survival (Lvl 5 team vs all Lvl 16s) and the animation engine breaking (grenaded body warping, weird falling/collision glitches meaning you have 2 bodies on the map briefly).

They were the most important things that needed fixing, and they never have been. A real shame, because I do enjoy playing it a lot, and it does several things right and better than many other multiplayer games (SOP is perfect, SNE is one of the most enjoyable gametypes in any online game, server lists favoured over barren matchmaking, customiseable persistant character, clans).

 

[Blablurn]

fuuuck, 1 year has past since the launch? omg :<

 

[-COOLIO-]

I hear you, I get in a box once I miss a shot and the other hops in the box....but it goes both ways. you say you may get killed by someone who lacks skill, well what about skill involved in surveying the environment? the box negates the need for stealth at all, which is funny since that was its intended purpose to begin with. I did it in the original MGO all the time, ran around killhouse A/B in a box found someone popped out, side stepped and then headshotted people who shot at me first and were hiding in the grass. Sure I'm skilled in aiming, but is that really fair when the other is playing the game as it was intended? I can't fault people for boxing and I intend to use it myself seeing as it's become essential.

the box was also intended as an escape tool though, and beyond that, as long as they dont change it i figure it's intended. kojipro is fully aware of how people use the box and i think they like it. also, like i said before if you get the drop on someone it's still a big advantage to get that first shot but it's not like you're fate is determined. you never think "free kill"

 

[Imm0rt4l]

did they fix the glitches that were so prevalent in survival? where you choke out a team mate and he wanders the map invisible killing anyone in his path? That shit was so fucking game breaking for survival.

 

[-COOLIO-]

did they fix the glitches that were so prevalent in survival? where you choke out a team mate and he wanders the map invisible killing anyone in his path? That shit was so fucking game breaking for survival.

they fixed that one, but now people are just lag switching, but it looks like konami is finally going to start banning to fix that too.

 

[GeneralIroh]

never saw bunny hopping in cs so i guess i played it too late but i can see how that would look really ridiculous, the boxing in mgo is mostly just crouching with a few frames showing a box. if it were just a crouch button instead i don't think most people would care.

I'd rather have the whole dodging thing be done with leaning. What bothers me with boxing the most though is how theres no repercussion with the weapon accuracy when using it. I'd like the game to make the weapons have more recoil and become less accurate after using the box trick. Its just wrong for someone who is standing and shooting steady to miss and a guy who just twitches out of the box to get the more accurate headshot.

Unfortunately the lag switching hasn't gotten any better. I've encountered new more devastating glitches where people just shoot through walls from a different spot than where you died or while in a box. Have you ever grabbed someone with cqc + knife 3 and have them phase out in your arms as you're about to slit their throat. Thats one of the first glitches I found and it still in the game. : (
Kojipro needs to take a few pages from bungie and include some kind of multiplayer match recording system so people can actually provide evidence of people cheating. Right now they're just too many hoops to jump through.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I'd rather have the whole dodging thing be done with leaning. What bothers me with boxing the most though is how theres no repercussion with the weapon accuracy when using it. I'd like the game to make the weapons have more recoil and become less accurate after using the box trick. Its just wrong for someone who is standing and shooting steady to miss and a guy who just twitches out of the box to get the more accurate headshot.

apart from people who box, there are people who prefer to primarily lean, people call them "dancers". most people do it to some extent but i just never got to use to it in this mgo. as for your scenario, i see what you're saying but the guy that boxed still had to evade, orient himself, aim perfectly, and quickly shoot you back, and so in my opinion he should be rewarded with surviving. the real tragedy in this is how hard it makes things for new players, and i guess realistically, anyone that throws a box on themselves probably wouldnt have perfect aim coming out of it. besides that though, i still like it : \ *shrug*

 

[Catalix]

I forgot to ask this question a looong time ago.

Was there ever an explanation for why all the FROGs were female? Was it simply a thematic extension of the B&B Corp concept of "destroyed beauty," or was there a more practical purpose within the context of the storyline?

 

[-COOLIO-]

I forgot to ask this question a looong time ago.

Was there ever an explanation for why all the FROGs were female? Was it simply a thematic extension of the B&B Corp concept of "destroyed beauty," or was there a more practical purpose within the context of the storyline?

id guess for agility

 

[VegaShinra]

So it looks like no major announcement or minor announcement on MGS4 today. Guess it really will just be an MGO patch and update. Boo.

 

[AranhaHunter]

So it looks like no major announcement or minor announcement on MGS4 today. Guess it really will just be an MGO patch and update. Boo.

Yeah, no announcement, what the hell man?

 

[GeneralIroh]

id guess for agility

bs they should've included the tengu soldiers as a male counterpart. I would love to see the tengu soldier costume in mgo.

 

[Ether_Snake]

This makes no sense???

Big Boss was not JD and he couldn't communicate through JD. He was just kept in a coma by JD and his body was used to access JD.

Before Zero used Big Boss' DNA to create clones there was no bad blood between them, he was his commanding officer and had shared knowledge and feelings about The Boss. And we don't know anything about their relationship between MGS3 and PO.
Zero didn't hook Big Boss to JD because he was his friend or enemy, it was because of what he stood for.
JD has really nothing to do with Ocelot. It was Zero and Sigint.

Zero didn't plan to kill The Boss, the CIA did. Why would he want to carry on her will if he planned to kill her? He was just following orders in MGS3, just like Big Boss. And is most probably one of the reasons they parted company, Big Boss finding out.

The AI mutation is nothing to do with Big Boss (reasons above). If it was, then the war economy would have been happening during MGS1 and MGS2, it wasn't. The System didn't even exist then.
It mutated because Zero had grown old and could no longer input his will. JD being left alone started to act by it's self, working out how to function on it's own. One of the tests being the S3 plan in MGS2. It's like Hal in 2001 or Kryten in Red Dwarf, breaking through their own code and creating their own.

JD is not Zero or Big Boss, it's an AI that was controlled by Zero to rule the world, that then starts thinking for it's self (when Zero couldn't control it any longer). Sorry for repeating myself, just making sure

Why do people believe Kojima when he says things like "This is my last game" or "I was going to have Snake and Otacon executed"??? You're playing a game about information control, but you can't work out when someone is messing with your head People need to spend more time with what is actually there, than what is not or what could have been.

!!!MGS3, MPO, and MGS4 spoilers!!!!


Zero did plan the whole Snake Eater mission, have Volgin fire the nuke, etc., and have The Boss killed. Play MGO, Gene says so when talking to Big Boss at the end before fighting him. He probably used the pretext of creating the world The Boss envisioned for the same reasons he then used Big Boss later on for the sake of the organization's image and influence. He never intended to have Big Boss part of the organization, Ocelot did. It was always Ocelot who idolized Big Boss, not Zero.

Eva says that to Zero, Big Boss was an irreplaceable friend, which makes no sense. He used him all along, and Big Boss turned his back on him (betrayed him is what Eva says), after which he lost all trust in anyone, which again makes it much more logical that he would have hooked himself to the AI at that point to be the core of their "will" rather than Big Boss, and it fits perfectly with the way the AI acted in MGS2; it acted as Zero would. The "mutation" is quite a coincidence, it's exactly the kind of world a computer would imagine Big Boss wanted to create.

When Snake describes the War Economy at the beginning of MGS4, it is an exact description of the world Big Boss would have presumably created. Yet this is supposed to be only a "coincidence"?

The Patriots in MGS4 are eerily faceless, voiceless, and meaningless. It's abnormal, and I think it's because something significant was cut or changed, and there is a lot that points in the direction it may have originally went into.

And now you say that Kojima didn't really meant that the game would be about "digitized sense" and how we can't "digitize someone's will" and that the "Otacon and Snake get executed" ending was just Kojima messing with our minds? That's denial

EDIT: Here is more indications that everything changed very late, even after MPO was finished:

The Boss described the Philosophers as this:

The Philosophers of today have no sense of good or evil. Their influence extends to countries and organizations involved in every aspect of every war. They have become war itself. That's how they operate. The sacrifices of war cause a shift in the times. This shift leads to renewed conflict and in turn triggers the next war. Like a nuclear chain reaction, each conflict sparks countless others, forming an endless spiral of war that will continue on for eternity. Do you understand what I'm saying, "Snake?" By consuming me and you the Philosophers intend to keep their cycle going forever. It was my father who explained all of this to me. He was one of them. You see, I am the last remaining child of the Philosophers. But after he revealed the truth my father was killed by that same shapeless, formless organization.

This is what Gene says he will create in MPO:

I’ll create a new global balance of power of my own design. My goal of building a new nation of mercenaries with only the most capable soldiers is real. But this peninsula is not the right place for it. Our nation will be an organization of shadows, without shape or form. We will lurk deep underground and intervene in conflicts all over the world. History will be ours to control.

This is how Big Boss describes his vision in MG2:

Start a war, fan its flames, create victims... Then save them, train them... And feed them back onto the battlefield. It's a perfectly logical system. In this world of ours, conflict never ends. And neither does our purpose... our raison d'etre.

Campbell describes Liquid's intentions as this in MGS4:

He aims to fan the flames of war even higher; to create the perfect world once envisioned by Big Boss.

And this is how Snake describes the war economy of MGS4:

War has changed. It's no longer about nations, ideologies, or ethnicity. It's an endless series of proxy battles fought by mercenaries and machines. War - and its consumption of life - has become a well-oiled machine. War has changed. ID-tagged soldiers carry ID-tagged weapons, use ID-tagged gear. Nanomachines inside their bodies enhance and regulate their abilities. Genetic control. Information control. Emotion control. Battlefield control. Everything is monitored and kept under control. War has changed. The age of deterrence has become the age of control...All in the name of averting catastrophe from weapons of mass destruction. And he who controls the battlefield...controls history. War has changed. When the battlefield is under total control...War becomes routine.

There is no doubt to me; the "war economy" of MGS4 was supposed to be the "digitized sense" of Big Boss. The theme Kojima said MGS4 was supposed to be about.

EDIT: Also, remember Gene was the first "artificial successor to The Boss", which fits nicely even with the idea that Zero would have had Big Boss' will digitized to become to core of the AI considering Big Boss is considered the true successor. Which would erase what I said in my previous post yesterday, but still fits with the idea that Big Boss' sense was supposed to be digitized and at the core of the AI in MGS4. But now Gene and MPO in general was completely scrapped; heck, Gene doesn't even have an entry in the Database! He even had the same exact trench coat Big Boss was known to wear later on.

I don't know what MGS4 was really supposed to be about, but all the pieces are there to indicate it suddenly went off in a new direction that contradicted a lot of what had been tied before.

 

[RadioHeadAche]

did they fix the glitches that were so prevalent in survival? where you choke out a team mate and he wanders the map invisible killing anyone in his path? That shit was so fucking game breaking for survival.

That's what happened? Wow...

 

[Ballistics]

So let's recap shall we?

1) So you think that Big Boss is hooked up to JD (or IS JD) and is controlling JD and it was Ocelot who hooked him up to JD.

And why would Zero hook up Big Boss to the AI after "losing all faith in humanity" and being betrayed by Big Boss? Makes, no, sense. But it makes sense if it was Ocelot who did so.

2) And there is no indication that Zero and Big Boss were friends.

Eva speaks about how Zero saw Big Boss as an irreplaceable friend, someone he idolized, etc., but in reality there is no indication of this at all.

3) And the last scene was a late addition and contradicts the rest of the story.

I think adding Big Boss in the flesh was a very late addition, and Zero was probably never supposed to be there. That whole scene is totally out of place, Snake says nothing, Zero either, it screams "late addition", and the things Eva says about Zero hooking up Big Boss to the AI's core makes no sense, it's an outright contradiction of even MPO which was made during MGS4' development. But the idea that MGS2' AI had Zero has its model, and MGS4' had Big Boss' as its model, makes perfect sense, and fits with the theme Kojima said MGS4 would be about.

Well, it's ALL rubbish.

1 and 3 contradict each other.
If Ocelot did hook Big Boss up to JD, why the hell would he spend the whole game looking for Big Boss' body!!!!! If he was the one who hooked him up he would know where he was!!!!! And he wouldn't have to make himself believe he was Liquid!!!!! In fact the whole game wouldn't exist, he would have just simply taken control.

Big Boss' body was just used as a way to access the AIs, that is all. And is how Ocelot gained access to The System at the end of Act 3, by using Solidus' body who is the only perfect clone of Big Boss. The first two tests didn't work because Snake and Liquid are not perfect clones.

And what are these contradictions between the story and the last scene?

2) The indication is that Eva is telling you!!!!!! Why is it so hard for you to grasp the fact that they were friends and then they weren't??? We don't know (as I said yesterday) what their relationship was like between MGS3 and PO...or even up until LET. Big Boss says nothing about how he feels toward Zero in PO and when Eva talks about Bog Boss' betrayal she is talking about AFTER they part company (it is said after she says "And so began the cold war between Zero and Big Boss"). Gene never tells Big Boss about Zero and Snake Eater. And again (as I said yesterday) Zero was just the commanding officer, he was told what to do by a higher force. This would explain why he wanted to control the government...the world...if he's in charge what happened to The Boss could never happen again. That didn't quite work out right though

 

[Dabookerman]

omg :lol The debating will continue for CENTURIES!!

 

[xKilltheMx]

Sooo.......I was gone with the girlfriend.
What happened/was announced on MGS4 Day?

 

[Donos]

omg :lol The debating will continue for CENTURIES!!

That's why it is the GOTF (i'm still ACT 2 -_- , friend needs his infamous fix)

 

[Ether_Snake]

Ballistics: my god you cannot read!

And YES Gene says Zero planned everything that happened during Snake Eater, including Volgin firing the nuke "Do you think he really fired the nuke of his own will?", etc. "The cunning strategist" who has "the same codename as Null"; ZERO. Big Boss freaks out because Gene doesn't tell him who it was, pressures him to tell him who, but we as the players know it.

 

[NinjaCodah]

Ballistics: my god you cannot read!

And YES Gene says Zero planned everything that happened during Snake Eater, including Volgin firing the nuke "Do you think he really fired the nuke of his own will?", etc. "The cunning strategist" who has "the same codename as Null"; ZERO. Big Boss freaks out because Gene doesn't tell him who it was, pressures him to tell him who, but we as the players know it.

Sorry lad, but that's not the case. Zero planned for the San Hieronymo uprising, but wasn't behind Snake Eater. Zero was deeply moved by The Boss's sacrifice, which led to him to plan for San Hieronymo and start The Patriots thing. Gene was simply tricked by Ocelot really. Would that surprise anyone?

You guys should stop arguing about all this and simply go find the official guide book from Piggyback interactive (or find it online). It explains everything, every character, the order in which the events occured, etc... It's a really neat book, and not that expensive. If you're a fan of MGS, it's worth having it in your collection.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I forgot to ask this question a looong time ago.

Was there ever an explanation for why all the FROGs were female? Was it simply a thematic extension of the B&B Corp concept of "destroyed beauty," or was there a more practical purpose within the context of the storyline?

no reason was given, probabl an extension of the BnB which was stupid anyways.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Sorry lad, but that's not the case. Zero planned for the San Hieronymo uprising, but wasn't behind Snake Eater. Zero was deeply moved by The Boss's sacrifice, which led to him to plan for San Hieronymo and start The Patriots thing. Gene was simply tricked by Ocelot really. Would that surprise anyone?

You guys should stop arguing about all this and simply go find the official guide book from Piggyback interactive (or find it online). It explains everything, every character, the order in which the events occured, etc... It's a really neat book, and not that expensive. If you're a fan of MGS, it's worth having it in your collection.

Yes Zero did plan it, play MPO, geez.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH6PzrXHo7w

At 4:38

Gene: Six years ago, during Operation Snake Eater, Volgin launched an American nuclear missile at Sokolov's research lab. This caused a change in plans, and the U.S. government had to assassinate its own operative, The Boss, to prove its innocence. And you were the assassin, Snake... Do you really think Volgin committed that terrible crime of his own will? ... It was all a setup from the very beginning. Volgin launching the nuke... The Boss' death... Even your mission in Groznyj Grad, Snake! It was all the work of your country and a single, deviously cunning strategist.

Snake: You're saying it was all a setup? By who!?

Gene: The Boss gave up her life, even if someone else willed it. She sacrificed her own life for her calling. It was a noble act.

Snake: Answer me! Who set it up?!

Gene: You don't need to know the answer. Snake, the only thing you need is a calling. Your country can't save you. Neither can your old teacher, nor your so-called friends. Join me, Jack. I will give you your calling.

And it shows a picture of Zero, and earlier on in the game Gene is talking to Ocelot over the phone asking him who is behind everything and figures out it's Zero.

You guys are in denial that Kojima all fucked up the story in MGS4 late in development, as if it wasn't clear enough already.

 

[Darkpen]

Its even more awesome if you think about the fact that according to MGS4, MGS3 = MGS Integral/VR Missions, so the lack of Zero's intentions in 3 is even more of an "oh" moment.

Something I want to know is why the FROGs/BnB bodies self-destruct upon death :/

 

[Blader]

Seems kind of pointless to speculate about what Kojima's "original" vision for MGS4's story was (if there even was an original vision) since, aside from the changed ending, there is no proof Kojima rewrote the whole thing at the last minute. Like someone else already pointed out, Kojima announced BB's voice actor (albeit didn't say it was for BB) a year before MGS4 even came out.

Ether, it seems like you're going on a whole lot of circumstantial evidence that doesn't even really amount to anything.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Err it amounts to the idea that the series was going in a certain specific direction all the way up to MPO, until MGS4 went against all that had been tied together and written.

Heck, it was even said that MPO was the missing link, that MGS4' story was heavily dependent on it, yet if anything MGS4 turned out to be as if MPO never even existed.

The Frogs looked to me like they were mass-produced soldiers, or clones or some such.

 

[Blader]

Err it amounts to the idea that the series was going in a certain specific direction all the way up to MPO, until MGS4 went against all that had been tied together and written.

I don't even know what you're trying to argue here, though. What direction was the whole series moving in that MGS4 just did an about face on?

I'm not even really sure what you're trying to say, with Zero and BB and one of them being hooked into the AIs and, or something. You make it sound like the idea of a "digitized sense" was supposed to stem from BB or Zero or someone being physically connected to the AIs, a la the Matrix.

 

[Ballistics]

Gene: So... You never knew.

Big Boss: What are you talking about?

Gene: Six years ago, during Operation Snake Eater.
Volgin launched an American nuclear missile at Sokolov's research lab.
This caused a change in plans, and the U.S. government had to assassinate its own operative, The Boss, to prove its innocence.
And you were the assassin, Snake.
Do you really think Volgin committed that terrible crime of his own will?

Big Boss: What?

Gene: It was all a setup from the very beginning.
Volgin launching the nuke...The Boss's death...Even your mission in Groznyj Grad, Snake!
It was all the work of your country and a single, deviously cunning strategist.

Big Boss: You're saying it was all a setup!? By who!?

Gene: The Boss gave up her life, even if someone else willed it.
She sacrificed her own life for her calling.
It was a noble act.

Big Boss: Answer me! Who set it up?!

Gene: You don't need to know the answer.

That's the whole transcript of that part and Gene says nothing after it...and then he dies. It's when Big Boss has been captured (and is not in the room) that Gene speaks to Ocelot on the phone and guesses that Zero is behind it all:-

Gene: There must be someone backing you. Who is it? Never mind...
I've got a fairly good idea who it is. The man with the same code name as Null.

It was Zero who planned Snake Eater, the picture heavily indicates this...but we don't know if he was told to do it or he was completely behind it (after all he was only the commanding officer and he didn't have the power he had in 1970). And besides, Big Boss knows none of this, so he is unaware of the betrayal.

Zero gets Big Boss involved in PO as an "insurance policy" ("he did quite well..."), because he knows how good he is. Which doesn't say "I hate you".

heck, Gene doesn't even have an entry in the Database!

YES, HE DOES!!! :lol He's top of G!!!

You guys should stop arguing about all this and simply go find the official guide book from Piggyback interactive (or find it online). It explains everything, every character, the order in which the events occured, etc... It's a really neat book, and not that expensive. If you're a fan of MGS, it's worth having it in your collection.

Slightly unfair on me that Considering I know what I'm talking about :lol

 

[Ballistics]

Says the man with the Cyborg Raiden = Kyle Schneider avatar

But if it turns out that Kyle isn't Raiden's father, I won't be pretending he is and then say that the story doesn't work :lol

 

[Lightning]

Confused. What provoked Ocelot to want to destroy the Patriots?

 

[Darkpen]

Err it amounts to the idea that the series was going in a certain specific direction all the way up to MPO, until MGS4 went against all that had been tied together and written.

Heck, it was even said that MPO was the missing link, that MGS4' story was heavily dependent on it, yet if anything MGS4 turned out to be as if MPO never even existed.

The Frogs looked to me like they were mass-produced soldiers, or clones or some such.

First of all: ORLY?

Considering the FACT that MGS2's conception was a reaction to MGS1's success, and MGS3 was a reaction to MGS2's backlash, I would say that it wouldn't be wrong to surmise that maybe, JUST maybe, there was never an "original vision," and they wrote it as they went. MGS4 was an attempt at wrapping everything up, and I think they did a fine job.

Second: wtf? Clones? Really? I'll bet you my signed copy of MGS4 limited that the FROGs aren't some bullshit "massproduced" clones. Did you forget about nanomachines or something?

 

[Ether_Snake]

Gene doesn't have an entry in the database, the entry for "Gene" is about DNA.

And I don't give a fuck what the frogs are, you brought it up, who knows what they are, don't freak out. There's no explanations for them, I said they looked like mass-produced clones to me; omg, world shatters!

 

[Ballistics]

There is definitely an entry on Gene. Go to People and go along to G, he is top of the list. It says Gene (Fox unit).

 

[Lightning]

Gene doesn't have an entry in the database, the entry for "Gene" is about DNA.

And I don't give a fuck what the frogs are, you brought it up, who knows what they are, don't freak out. There's no explanations for them, I said they looked like mass-produced clones to me; omg, world shatters!

Are you sure? I can distinctly recall one being there.

I unfortunately lost my database when my system yellow lighted on me and now I can't find the database on the PSN store. Words can't describe how much that pisses me off.

 

[ShinoguTakeruKoeru]

Are you sure? I can distinctly recall one being there.

I unfortunately lost my database when my system yellow lighted on me and now I can't find the database on the PSN store. Words can't describe how much that pisses me off.

It's there, it's listed as add-on content for MGS4.

 

[letsbereasonable]

There is definitely an entry on Gene. Go to People and go along to G, he is top of the list. It says Gene (Fox unit).

I just loaded it; he's listed as Ballistics says above.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I don't remember it being there originally. Whatever.

 

[Ballistics]

However, what he's trying to say makes perfect sense, in context. He's just theorizing what alterations Kojima probably made to the MGS4 storyline because certain things seem to directly contradict information presented in earlier games... Specifically MPO, a game in which the storyline was created in conjunction with MGS4.

For instance, the implication that

Spoiler

Zero orchestrated the Boss' death

... nothing became of that. Certain plot threads just seemed to sort of fizzle out or conflict for no apparent reason.

What and where???

People go on about contradictions and plot holes, but where? And I'm not talking about pictures being changed in the MSX games, stupid little things that don't matter, where are the big plot holes?

The game starts with Snake at The Boss' grave, which indicates to me that he knows everything, so he would know that Zero was behind it all. It says in the Database that files for Snake Eater were released before MGS4 begins. So that pretty much ties in with PO.

 

[Blader]

Confused. What provoked Ocelot to want to destroy the Patriots?

He's wanted to destroy the Patriots as long has Big Boss has.

In MGS3, Ocelot's loyalty is to the CIA. In every other game, Ocelot's loyalty is ultimately to Big Boss.