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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

S

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Erigu said:
Dude, you said:

That's what I was replying to.
Now, if you used quotation marks because you knew (/agreed) that wasn't an actual conclusion, you were just wasting my time.
Click to expand...

The quotation marks were because I was quoting you. I was saying your power cut analogy isn't equivalent to how Eli's arc ended.

I find your brand of barely suppressed hostility both patronising and not conducive to any kind of discussion, so let's leave it at that.
 
B

brau

Member
The journalist also asked why Kojima chose to go with a much darker and more tragic theme for this game. “This episode is the story of how Snake became Big Boss.” Kojima explained. “It is important for me to explain to the players how this hero became an evil to the entire world. That’s why it needed to become a very dramatic story.”
Click to expand...

Source

Thats from MARCH 27, 2014.

A lot of people here saying that we don't need to see BB turn evil because he already did in PW. I call BS. Because it was precisely the intention of Kojima to have MGSV focus on that.

I read this earlier. Which lead me to look for more info.

However, underneath that, there are the hows and whys of Big Boss's failure. His failure was the atrocities he committed to achieve his interpretation of her will in his fight with Zero & the Patriots. His causing chaos throughout the world even as he thought it was for the greater good. But make no mistake, this is no simple story of a villain with a cause gone wrong. He is truly fighting for the greater good, but becomes completely and entirely lost along the way.

If you, as a fan, want to see ANYTHING LESS from such a pivotal moment in the series' story, why exactly are you playing this game? If Kojima wanted to write another (relatively) simplistic story of heroism set to a backdrop of modern day war & its psychological ramifications, he could do it with any other part in the timeline. This, dear fan, is far too important an era in the history of MGS. All the world beyond falls on this one man's tragedy. Everyone is touched by his legacy, he is an enigmatic, charismatic, legendary figure to history and its people. Sniper Wolf and many others speak so softly of this caring, fatherly man. If you hadn't realized the true MGS story rests with Big Boss & his legacy (INCLUDING Solid Snake), not Solid Snake, I really don't know.

To play as a man who believes himself a hero, whose morals and ideals we absolutely detest & can't let happen, is a profound and unprecedented concept in all the videogame medium, and exceedingly rare even in literature. Big Boss will commit unspeakable atrocities. WE will commit unspeakable atrocities.
Click to expand...

This is were the major inconsistencies happen with MGSV. Remove it, and it does nothing for the series. Add it, and it retcons and also doens't really add anything to the series. Its not a pivotal moment in the timeline. Specially where all kind of cool things happen. The biggest offender being, Big Boss legacy that causes everything to move forward. Whether he wanted to or not.

Pretty interesting stuff.

TPP should've been psychological. A game that aligns you to side and only realize with horror that you have been promoting and following the wrong ideals. A game that betrays you after you made all teh decisions, and in some ways i can see that happened. But it all goes to waste when its not BB doing this but a double. Seriously. ~_~ BB is such an interesting character, that he makes a perfect villain. They say that your hero is only as interesting as the villain, and BB is just so full of potential. The things that he did in PW were really interesting, and in retrospect, learning about how he is using kids for soldiers or his own sense of justice is pretty cool, all masked under his charm. I was at least hoping that mask would start to corrode and show him become the villain he has been nurturing inside.

Say all you guys wnat, about its Kojimas story and he decided to do this instead of that. But thats what he had set it up to be. TPP does nothing for MGS storywise. its like it wasn't needed, and that is the issue a lot of people have with it. totally understandable too.
 
J

JayEH

Junior Member
We did see Big Boss become a villain though. It just wasn't in a Star Wars way. He ran away like a coward and let Venom deal with all his problems. Then puts Venom in a situation similar to the way The Boss died by the US government i.e. being the scapegoat. Venom dies and no one knows anything about him. Everything was stolen from him. Nobody ever remembers him, it's a fate worse than the Boss since people at least remember her. Big Boss became a villain because he became the very thing he hated. He said fuck The Boss, fuck you, fuck everything, the world will be the way I see it.
 
B

brau

Member
JayEH said:
We did see Big Boss become a villain though. It just wasn't in a Star Wars way. He ran away like a coward and let Venom deal with all his problems. Then puts Venom in a situation similar to the way The Boss died by the US government i.e. being the scapegoat. Venom dies and no one knows anything about him. Everything was stolen from him. Nobody ever remembers him, it's a fate worse than the Boss since people at least remember her. Big Boss became a villain because he became the very thing he hated. He said fuck The Boss, fuck you, fuck everything, the world will be the way I see it.
Click to expand...

i can only say that is bad storytelling then. OH.. hey.. well.. yep. he turn bad, and he blamed it on someone else, and he jsut hid and no climax included. BUT HEY! he did turn bad. think about it ok? lets close our eyes and pretend and see with our hearts that its wrong. Yep. thats it.

“It is important for me to explain to the players how this hero became an evil to the entire world. That’s why it needed to become a very dramatic story.”
the whole dramatic story, was just thrown out the window.
 
J

JayEH

Junior Member
brau said:
i can only say that is bad storytelling then. OH.. hey.. well.. yep. he turn bad, and he blamed it on someone else, and he jsut hid and no climax included. BUT HEY! he did turn bad. think about it ok? lets close our eyes and pretend and see with our hearts that its wrong. Yep. thats it.

“It is important for me to explain to the players how this hero became an evil to the entire world. That’s why it needed to become a very dramatic story.”
the whole dramatic story, was just thrown out the window.
Click to expand...

You don't need to pretend he's bad. He is bad. You are forced into the roll of Big Boss, it happened in game.
 
B

brau

Member
JayEH said:
You don't need to pretend he's bad. He is bad. You are forced into the roll of Big Boss, it happened in game.
Click to expand...

~_~ but how is that dramatic? how is this good story telling?

see... the issues that i have with the game is the presentation. How does this follow a good script. or a good story. break it down for me, and explain to me how this brings a climactic end to the story of BB.
 
D

Dragon1893

Member
brau said:
Source

Thats from MARCH 27, 2014.

A lot of people here saying that we don't need to see BB turn evil because he already did in PW. I call BS. Because it was precisely the intention of Kojima to have MGSV focus on that.

I read this earlier. Which lead me to look for more info.



This is were the major inconsistencies happen with MGSV. Remove it, and it does nothing for the series. Add it, and it retcons and also doens't really add anything to the series. Its not a pivotal moment in the timeline. Specially where all kind of cool things happen. The biggest offender being, Big Boss legacy that causes everything to move forward. Whether he wanted to or not.

Pretty interesting stuff.

TPP should've been psychological. A game that aligns you to side and only realize with horror that you have been promoting and following the wrong ideals. A game that betrays you after you made all teh decisions, and in some ways i can see that happened. But it all goes to waste when its not BB doing this but a double. Seriously. ~_~ BB is such an interesting character, that he makes a perfect villain. They say that your hero is only as interesting as the villain, and BB is just so full of potential. The things that he did in PW were really interesting, and in retrospect, learning about how he is using kids for soldiers or his own sense of justice is pretty cool, all masked under his charm. I was at least hoping that mask would start to corrode and show him become the villain he has been nurturing inside.

Say all you guys wnat, about its Kojimas story and he decided to do this instead of that. But thats what he had set it up to be. TPP does nothing for MGS storywise. its like it wasn't needed, and that is the issue a lot of people have with it. totally understandable too.
Click to expand...

When I was playing mission 43, it really made me think about the kind of impact that event would have on Big Boss. Turns out he wasn't even there lol.

Despite my complaints, one thing I do appreciate is how Kojima made an effort to create a bridge between this game and the ones that follow, even if most of it is done through tape recordings.
The whole thing does feel more cohesive to me now.
 
E

Erigu

Member
JayEH said:
We did see Big Boss become a villain though. It just wasn't in a Star Wars way. He ran away like a coward and let Venom deal with all his problems.
Click to expand...
I don't know that we can say we actually did see that. At best, we heard cassette tapes that seem to imply that, a bit before the events of the game, Ocelot went "so Zero turned your medic into a decoy: he'll look like you and think he's you", and Snake replied "... er... well, okay?".
So even in that sense, Kojima's claim that the game "is the story of how Snake became Big Boss" is a tiiiiny bit of a stretch, really...
 
B

brau

Member
Dragon1893 said:
When I was playing mission 43, it really made me think about the kind of impact that event would have on Big Boss. Turns out he wasn't even there lol.

Despite my complaints, one thing I do appreciate is how Kojima made an effort to create a bridge between this game and the ones that follow, even if most of it is done through tape recordings.
The whole thing does feel more cohesive to me now.
Click to expand...

The bridge is there. The thing that irks me is that in no way is much darker, or more tragic. With interesting themes that really were not really explored. I think thats the root of it. Not being BB or seeing the ramifications of you playing the game just takes away from it. Obviously this plays into the phatom pain feeling i guess. But what is the point? A good story is a good story, and the greatest ones are the ones that maybe don't follow a formula, but present things in order. I don't know how else to explain it. TPP has a bad story... its interesting to think about, and how it connects to everything else. But its a boring story. No real villain, not even VS is an interesting character as the hero or antagonist. BB is an after thought and that bothers me.
 
J

JayEH

Junior Member
brau said:
~_~ but how is that dramatic? how is this good story telling?

see... the issues that i have with the game is the presentation. How does this follow a good script. or a good story. break it down for me, and explain to me how this brings a climactic end to the story of BB.
Click to expand...

Well I don't think this was ever meant to be the a Big Boss story. It's Venom' story (MGSV). What it really comes down to is Kojima is bored of the Metal Gear universe. He never wanted the series to go on this long. He intentionally ended MGS3 there because he didn't want to show how Big Boss becomes a villain after, you could draw a straight line from MGS3 to MG1. But unfortunately he kept making the games (for whatever reasons) so he probably needs ways to entertain himself at this point.

That isn't an excuse for the pacing issues and some bad character development but the story being centered around Venom (the player) is actually kinda cool when you think about it. Kojima has made the player the center of the universe like he hasn't before. And if you look at some things he's said in the past and since after the game came out. The true "story" of MGSV is the story you tell to your friends on how you infiltrated that base or what tactics you used. Yeah maybe it's not the story everyone wanted but in the end I think it's cool.

I also think Kojima is partially to blame for all this disappointment since he is the hype master and the marketing around the game is deceptive. I was upset for a very long because of this. But I think if you can remove yourself from all the hype and interviews, etc. what's there instead is ok.
 
B

brau

Member
JayEH said:
Well I don't think this was ever meant to be the a Big Boss story. It's Venom' story (MGSV). What it really comes down to is Kojima is bored of the Metal Gear universe. He never wanted the series to go on this long. He intentionally ended MGS3 there because he didn't want to show how Big Boss becomes a villain after, you could draw a straight line from MGS3 to MG1. But unfortunately he kept making the games (for whatever reasons) so he probably needs ways to entertain himself at this point.

That isn't an excuse for the pacing issues and some bad character development but the story being centered around Venom (the player) is actually kinda cool when you think about it. Kojima has made the player the center of the universe like he hasn't before. And if you look at some things he's said in the past and since after the game came out. The true "story" of MGSV is the story you tell to your friends on how you infiltrated that base or what tactics you used. Yeah maybe it's not the story everyone wanted but in the end I think it's cool.

I also think Kojima is partially to blame for all this disappointment since he is the hype master and the marketing around the game is deceptive. I was upset for a very long because of this. But I think if you can remove yourself from all the hype and interviews, etc. what's there instead is ok.
Click to expand...

Those are just excuses tho. Kojima wanted out. Kojima wanted to try something else. Kojima is bored. Kojima is depressed. Kojima is out of a job.

The story is the story. Everything that is in there is it. Not looking at it with hype, nor with MGS eyes... or high expectations. The story is bad. Its just a bad story. Nothing interesting happens, and the bits that are interesting are not tied to you directly. Even when you say that YOU, the player, are the center of the MGS universe. Sure, in retrospect its fun to retcon and tie everything in its place with speculation. But that does not make a good story. Interesting characters do, good dialogue (which is mostly missing), a good hero or antagonist and even those are not necessary. Events that happen in on of the most interesting moments in the timeline. But nothing happens.

Raiden was a better vessel. He is not only the player, but his own character and motives. Moved by his own will, as well as the player. Even when i don't like Raiden, you can see that the story there is not an issue. really interesting characters surround Raiden in MGS2. From the whole idea of remaking the events of MGS1. The legend that is the legacy involved of Solid Snake. The patriots. or Solidus and his relation to Raiden. Its all interesting.

Hype or not... being fooled by Kojima or not. The story is a big problem in TPP.
 
J

JayEH

Junior Member
brau said:
Those are just excuses tho. Kojima wanted out. Kojima wanted to try something else. Kojima is bored. Kojima is depressed. Kojima is out of a job.

The story is the story. Everything that is in there is it. Not looking at it with hype, nor with MGS eyes... or high expectations. The story is bad. Its just a bad story. Nothing interesting happens, and the bits that are interesting are not tied to you directly. Even when you say that YOU, the player, are the center of the MGS universe. Sure, in retrospect its fun to retcon and tie everything in its place with speculation. But that does not make a good story. Interesting characters do, good dialogue (which is mostly missing), a good hero or antagonist and even those are not necessary. Events that happen in on of the most interesting moments in the timeline. But nothing happens.

Raiden was a better vessel. He is not only the player, but his own character and motives. Moved by his own will, as well as the player. Even when i don't like Raiden, you can see that the story there is not an issue. really interesting characters surround Raiden in MGS2. From the whole idea of remaking the events of MGS1. The legend that is the legacy involved of Solid Snake. The patriots. or Solidus and his relation to Raiden. Its all interesting.

Hype or not... being fooled by Kojima or not. The story is a big problem in TPP.
Click to expand...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrL7wo5-nJo&feature=youtu.be&t=4m

listen to snake ;)
 
J

JayEH

Junior Member
brau said:
Touche.

I miss SS now. I used to really enjoy the Big Boss saga. Shame it had to end like this.
Click to expand...

I do too. Too bad Kojima killed him off lol. Anyway, by the end I hated Big Boss so it accomplish its mission...I guess...
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
I finished it last night, and while I enjoyed the ending(and I also watched 51's synopsis), I have to agree with Kaz here.

Big Boss can go to hell.
Click to expand...

WTF at him leaving his bro behind like that. The more I think about it, the more upset it makes me. If that's the hero Naked Snake became, Kaz doesn't need him, and neither does Diamond Dogs.
 
KOMANI

KOMANI

KOMANI
What Kojima wanted to accomplish with Venom is more suited for a 90's jrpg main protoganist. Within this 3D environment, he's exposed as being blend... Under developed. Like having a mime as Hamlet in Hamlet.
 
F

FluxWaveZ

Member
I really like the similarities between Venom Snake's fate and The Boss'. Both used as tools by their superiors, sent to die for their mission, to be eventually forgotten whose only legacy will be that of utter villains.

Big Boss became what he vowed not to when he left The Patriots. He was always a twisted man, and we know this because of the ending to Peace Walker when he rebels against The Boss and her philosophy.

bad said:
What Kojima wanted to accomplish with Venom is more suited for a 90's jrpg main protoganist. Within this 3D environment, he's exposed as being blend... Under developed. Like having a mime as Hamlet in Hamlet.
Click to expand...

That's part of the reason why I really rebuke the "we're all Big Boss" concept. I think I would have been much more receptive to the twist if Venom was shown to be his own character, somehow. I don't care about me, show me him. A flashback to his time at MSF or something, I don't know.

I like minor touches like Big Boss saying he would never smoke an e-cig in PW and only smokes the real thing, which we learn remains valid at the end of the game. A real minor differentiation showing that Venom isn't quite like BB.
 
H

HardRojo

Member
Just finished Mission 43 and man I was seriously about to cry. I'm the kind of guy who would usually try and go for the good guy routes in games :(
 
B

brau

Member
Darkangel said:
Two months later and I still can't get over how bad the twist was.

I mean, holy crap.
Click to expand...

i_know_that_feel__mgs_edition__by_sammzor-d4l8f9q.jpg


its ok... Fallout 4 is out today at least. :) Rinse that bad taste Kojima left, with the rage of unlimited bugs in Fallout 4. its gonna be great.
 
S

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Darkangel said:
Two months later and I still can't get over how bad the twist was.

I mean, holy crap.
Click to expand...

I liked it. It's both brazenly American Soap Opera and wonderfully post-modern. Super Bunny Hop made a great point when he said it felt "unearned" in terms of when it arrives (out of nowhere) but having played through it again it's pretty well foreshadowed, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly.

That's just me though.
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
So what was the Snake screaming/covered in blood scene supposed to be from? A slaughter during the Lord of the Flies chapter, I'm guessing?
 
G

Glendemonium

Member
After this game, I need something fun and offbeat like Fallout 4 to take the edge off.

When put in perspective, this game can make you depressed. The last 3 story missions especially.
 
Darkangel

Darkangel

Member
AniHawk said:
mgsv was always going to be the game about big boss's fall. it was always going to make him into a bastard. the story isn't really pointless, but it doesn't have a lot in the continuity that leads to metal gear aside from the stuff happening around venom at the time.

the twist is contextualizing big boss's 'fall'. my understanding of it is that it's him giving into the idea of using a means to an end. it wasn't his plan to use his bestest soldier as a duplicate, but since it had already been set in motion, he basically used it to his advantage. big boss doesn't go from legendary soldier protecting the world to evil asshole bent on controlling it over the course of the game. instead, his priorities shift behind the scenes after flatlining and going into a coma.

in a more direct way, it explains how big boss dies in outer heaven but lives on in zanzibarland. it's because he had his patsy running the show in outer heaven.

i don't think episode 51 would have given the game any closure. in fact, everything with eli and psycho mantis was extremely out of place throughout the game. you could have taken all of it and the volgin stuff out and the game would feel a lot more complete.
Click to expand...

Knowledge before MGSV:
Big Boss goes crazy some time after 1975 and does all sorts of cool shit

Knowledge after MGSV:
Big Boss goes crazy some time after 1975 and does all sorts of cool shit

We still never saw what we were waiting to see.

Big Medic's story is really inconsequential to the overall series. At most it helps solve a complete non-issue of a plothole by making things even more convoluted. The Truth Tapes are the only thing of value, and even then they can be summarized as "Zero was nice but became senile"
 
S

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Darkangel said:
Knowledge before MGSV:
Big Boss goes crazy some time after 1975 and does all sorts of cool shit

Knowledge after MGSV:
Big Boss goes crazy some time after 1975 and does all sorts of cool shit
Click to expand...

He goes "crazy" after MGS3. Peace Walker pretty much covers his descent into super villainy (kidnap, child soldiers, nuke, private base/army, own Metal Gear) and GZ/TPP show his full on moral decline (mostly) in it's periphery.
 
J

JayEH

Junior Member
Darkangel said:
Knowledge before MGSV:
Big Boss goes crazy some time after 1975 and does all sorts of cool shit

Knowledge after MGSV:
Big Boss goes crazy some time after 1975 and does all sorts of cool shit

We still never saw what we were waiting to see.

Big Medic's story is really inconsequential to the overall series. At most it helps solve a complete non-issue of a plothole by making things even more convoluted. The Truth Tapes are the only thing of value, and even then they can be summarized as "Zero was nice but became senile"
Click to expand...

You got to see it directly. Going along with a plan to make one of your best men to be a body double for you is some messed up shit. And as Screaming meat said the downfall was even beginning in Peace Walker.
 
Turnstyle

Turnstyle

Member
I'm sure this has been asked a hundred times already, so apologies in advance, but I've just finished mission 43, and now I want to 'finish' the story.

I've read a few guides about what triggers the final mission (I wish the game was clearer about this stuff so I didn't have to go rummaging around the internet), and they say: clear all main missions (done), do all story side ops (done), listen to all story tapes (done), and....fully upgrade mother base. Now, that is not done. Not by a long stretch. I didn't really do much upgrading through my playthrough, and if this is a requirement, I'm looking at hours and hours of development and getting resources.

Is upgrading mother base really necessary to progress the story? It seems hit and miss as far as I can tell. Or is it just case of taking on more side ops until the next scene triggers?

I've stuck through this game through a lot of challenges, but this might be the point where I throw in the towel...
 
B

BigBoss

Member
You don't need to fully upgrade mother base, just do a sideop or 2 and return to mother base, eventually the final mission will trigger.
 
E

Erigu

Member
JayEH said:
You got to see it directly. Going along with a plan to make one of your best men to be a body double for you is some messed up shit. And as Screaming meat said the downfall was even beginning in Peace Walker.
Click to expand...
I think you meant "indirectly".
 
SJRB

SJRB

Gold Member
BigBoss said:
You don't need to fully upgrade mother base, just do a sideop or 2 and return to mother base, eventually the final mission will trigger.
Click to expand...

Just to add to that - fully upgrading your Mother Base won't get you anything at all.

It takes a pretty hefty amount of grinding [especially fuel], and the game doesn't reward your time and effort in any way. I totally expected something cool to happen, you know like an actual cutscene or some crazy unlock or something else to show that the game aknowledges your accomplishment. But NOPE.

Yeah you get 500 heroism points or some other shit you don't give a fuck about. Gee thanks.
 
SJRB

SJRB

Gold Member
C

Chronology

Member
JayEH said:
You got to see it directly. Going along with a plan to make one of your best men to be a body double for you is some messed up shit. And as Screaming meat said the downfall was even beginning in Peace Walker.
Click to expand...

Yep. The whole point of V is to hit home that Big Boss is a villain not because he's some crazy murderer or whatever, but that he's intensely manipulative and is willing to pursue any means for the sake of his vision. While the execution wasn't on the level of Breaking Bad, Big Boss is Walter White, rather than Tuco or Gus.
 
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