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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

SJRB

Gold Member
guys i finally finished the game.. time to go through 1000 pages of spoiler thread!!

how does some medic dude end up essentially saving the world by himself? I'm confused

He didn't do shit. Sahalanthropus stomped Skull Face into the ground and Big Medic simply snagged the container like he was taking candy from a baby and casually tossed the little vials in a fire with complete disregard of the possibility of getting the virus airborne.


"Hello Big Boss, let me give you an Uber back to the power plant. Let me give you a 10-minute ride while I hold a weapon of mass destruction in my hand. Please make no attempt to stop me. Don't take the container, don't shoot me. In fact, don't even bother speaking to me. Ignoring me is probably the most hurtful thing you can do in this situation"

Big Medic saving the world is nothing but a random string of luck.
 

Chinner

Banned
I was born in a small village. I was still a child when MGSV released. 93% Metacritic. Torn from my Nintendo, I was made to play their game. With each mission, my reaction changed along with the plot points they made me endure. With each cut, I was cut, too. My thoughts, personality, how I saw Konami and Kojima. MGSV is awful.
 

JayEH

Junior Member
He didn't do shit. Sahalanthropus stomped Skull Face into the ground and Big Medic simply snagged the container like he was taking candy from a baby and casually tossed the little vials in a fire with complete disregard of the possibility of getting the virus airborne.


"Hello Big Boss, let me give you an Uber back to the power plant. Let me give you a 10-minute ride while I hold a weapon of mass destruction in my hand. Please make no attempt to stop me. Don't take the container, don't shoot me. In fact, don't even bother speaking to me. Ignoring me is probably the most hurtful thing you can do in this situation"

Big Medic saving the world is nothing but a random string of luck.

And Volgin got electrocuted in 3 and PW ran itself into the ocean. Big Boss also a random string of luck.
 

SJRB

Gold Member
And Volgin got electrocuted in 3 and PW ran itself into the ocean. Big Boss also a random string of luck.

Absolutely, Big Boss has his share of luck [or was it Skull Face helping him from the shadows huehuehuehue].

But seriously, Big Medic is beyond passive with everything that happens in MGSV. He just stands on the sideline as events unfold around him.
 

Dimmle

Member
well, most mgs characters are essentially different characters in each game. kojima shoehorns his ideas within the confines of the mgs universe. for ex. Big boss being like che gueverra in peace walker. zero is a stoic bond-loving unassuming mission commander in mgs3. huey goes from otacon analog in PW to the sleezy weasel he is in MGSV. raiden in mgs2 vs. mgs4. eva in mgs3 vs. mgs4. most of these character arcs work better within the individual games vs. a constant and consistent character arc.

It was. The implication with MGS3's ending was that BB began his downward spiral because of The Boss and her sacrifice. From PW onward though, he rejects her outright and becomes evil because I guess he's just a dick?

Like GreyOcelot said though, Kojima straight up doesn't care about the MGS story or its consistency. The characters are different people in each game which makes it easy to just ignore things as part of the canon, since why should I give a damn if the creator clearly doesn't?

Yeah, you guys are highlighting the reasons why I can't possibly muster any indignation toward Metal Gear story beats. The series narrative never had any integrity or cohesion to risk in the first place. It's a beautiful mess. TPP keeps that trash fire burning bright, even in death.

But seriously, Big Medic is beyond passive with everything that happens in MGSV. He just stands on the sideline as events unfold around him.

I assumed Venom Snake is just a little slow due to the giant piece of shrapnel embedded in his skull.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
And Volgin got electrocuted in 3 and PW ran itself into the ocean. Big Boss also a random string of luck.

A big part of the reason why I didn't like the twist was because I can fully accept the plot armor given to someone like Big Boss for the crazy shit that he does sometimes. His "luck." But attribute that to some random medic? What? If anything, this devalues Big Boss to a significant extent. Some nobody can take your place, so why do we need you again?

I did like how the twist gave a reason to why Venom never says anything. In contrast, Big Boss was as talkative as ever in every single one of his scenes.
 

Chinner

Banned
You mean... like the player?!

*MUSICAL STING*

*FADE OUT*

Now do you remember?

Who you are?

What you were meant to do?

I cheated death, thanks to you. And thanks to you I've left my mark. You have too - you've written your own history. You're your own man. I'm Big Boss....

and you are too..

Yeah, you guys are highlighting the reasons why I can't possibly muster any indignation toward Metal Gear story beats. The series narrative never had any integrity or cohesion to risk in the first place. It's a beautiful mess. TPP keeps that trash fire burning bright, even in death.

I assumed Venom Snake is just a little slow due to the giant piece of shrapnel embedded in his skull.

and you are too..
Absolutely, Big Boss has his share of luck [or was it Skull Face helping him from the shadows huehuehuehue].

But seriously, Big Medic is beyond passive with everything that happens in MGSV. He just stands on the sideline as events unfold around him.
and you are too..
And Volgin got electrocuted in 3 and PW ran itself into the ocean. Big Boss also a random string of luck.

and you are too..
good thing I brought my reading glasses

and you are too..

well, most mgs characters are essentially different characters in each game. kojima shoehorns his ideas within the confines of the mgs universe. for ex. Big boss being like che gueverra in peace walker. zero is a stoic bond-loving unassuming mission commander in mgs3. huey goes from otacon analog in PW to the sleezy weasel he is in MGSV. raiden in mgs2 vs. mgs4. eva in mgs3 vs. mgs4. most of these character arcs work better within the individual games vs. a constant and consistent character arc.

and you are too..

No... He's the two of us. Together. Where we are today? We built it. This story - this "legend" - it's ours. We can change the world - and with it, the future. I am you, and you are me. Carry that with you, wherever you go. Thank you... my friend. From here on out, you're Big Boss.
 

Dimmle

Member
A big part of the reason why I didn't like the twist was because I can fully accept the plot armor given to someone like Big Boss for the crazy shit that he does sometimes. His "luck." But attribute that to some random medic? What? If anything, this devalues Big Boss to a significant extent. Some nobody can take your place, so why do we need you again?

I did like how the twist gave a reason to why Venom never says anything. In contrast, Big Boss was as talkative as ever in every single one of his scenes.

I think that ties into the idea of the legend being more important than the man. Anyone can fill Big Boss's role given the right circumstances.
 

LeleSocho

Banned
Guys is there a reason why when i fulton soldiers with A++ or higher they don't show up in the soldier list? Will they show up further in the game?
I'm around mission 20 by the way...
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
I think that ties into the idea of the legend being more important than the man. Anyone can fill Big Boss's role given the right circumstances.

I appreciate that message, and they did accomplish what they were going for with that concept, but I just don't like it. "Legend being more important than the man" rings so hollow to me in this case, especially when we consider how Big Boss as a person and Les Enfants Terribles are the fundamental elements of the entire series.

Guys is there a reason why when i fulton soldiers with A++ or higher they don't show up in the soldier list? Will they show up further in the game?
I'm around mission 20 by the way...

Probably in the brig being talked nicely to by Ocelot so that they're convinced to join DD. Check that section of the MB menu.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I appreciate that message, and they did accomplish what they were going for with that concept, but I just don't like it. "Legend being more important than the man" rings so hollow to me in this case, especially when we consider how Big Boss as a person and Les Enfants Terribles are the fundamental elements of the entire series.

I'd argue that the demystifying of legends is a fundamental element of the entire series too.
 

JayEH

Junior Member
A big part of the reason why I didn't like the twist was because I can fully accept the plot armor given to someone like Big Boss for the crazy shit that he does sometimes. His "luck." But attribute that to some random medic? What? If anything, this devalues Big Boss to a significant extent. Some nobody can take your place, so why do we need you again?

I did like how the twist gave a reason to why Venom never says anything. In contrast, Big Boss was as talkative as ever in every single one of his scenes.

Remember, he isn't a random medic, he's you. The player has all this experience. Yeah it's some random meta BS but that's the route the plot went. It's just something you have to just sort of accept. I find it all easier to accept when you think of this game sort of in its own vacuum.
 
Just finished the game.
Not a fan of the that final twist.
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it.
So basically this game is pretty much irrelevant to the serie's overall story?
Why do that? For the sake of having a big shocking twist at the end? Knowing that it wasn't actually Snake feels really disappointing to me and I really don't see a reason why it couldn't have been him.
And how can a random dude (a medic even!) take Big Boss' place just like that?
And what the hell happened to the kids and Sahelanthropus?
Eli is mentioned in that synopsis after the credits but is that all we're getting?
The whole final act just feels so disappointing. Maybe that plot twist is there to fill the void because without it there's nothing left... The game just ends.
Edit: just watched episode 51, that would've gone a long way in giving the game more closure. Shame.

Damn, the feeling of disappointment is really setting in now.

I guess I have some reading to do.
I still haven't seen all the scenes with Paz and god knows what else I'm missing.

I didn't like PW's story and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from this one.
MGS3 is my favorite game in the franchise and at this point I just wish Kojima had left Big Boss' story alone.
 

Ashura_MX

Member
Just finished the game.
Not a fan of the that final twist.
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it.
So basically this game is pretty much irrelevant to the serie's overall story?
Why do that? For the sake of having a big shocking twist at the end? Knowing that it wasn't actually Snake feels really disappointing to me and I really don't see a reason why it couldn't have been him.
And how can a random dude (a medic even!) take Big Boss' place just like that?
And what the hell happened to the kids and Sahelanthropus?
Eli is mentioned in that synopsis after the credits but is that all we're getting?
The whole final act just feels so disappointing. Maybe that plot twist is there to fill the void because without it there's nothing left... The game just ends.
Edit: just watched episode 51, that would've gone a long way in giving the game more closure. Shame.

Damn, the feeling of disappointment is really setting in now.

I guess I have some reading to do.
I still haven't seen all the scenes with Paz and god knows what else I'm missing.

I didn't like PW's story and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from this one.
MGS3 is my favorite game in the franchise and at this point I just wish Kojima had left Big Boss' story alone.
Feelin the phantom pain o7
 
Yeah, you guys are highlighting the reasons why I can't possibly muster any indignation toward Metal Gear story beats. The series narrative never had any integrity or cohesion to risk in the first place. It's a beautiful mess. TPP keeps that trash fire burning bright, even in death.

MGS3's story works fine on its own, I actually think it's great. That's why I said in my previous post that I wish he had just left it alone.
 

cris7198

Member
I finally finished the game and...

I get you brothers, I'm feeling it too... the phantom pain. Kojima deserved to finish the game
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
I was looking at this video and I noticed that Venom's insignia doesn't have the small diamond on it. Is it possible to go through the game without the ashes of his brothers-in-arms being turned into diamonds? Or is this just some kind of hack?

The more I watch that scene, the more I enjoy it. I love the direction, the music, the symbolism... It's pretty great. Unfortunately, tied to the twist, I was more preoccupied with freaking out at the time. Would have been better if Venom looked like he actually time skipped, though.
 

JackelZXA

Member
MGS3's story works fine on its own, I actually think it's great. That's why I said in my previous post that I wish he had just left it alone.

The problem ended up not being mgs3's story though, it's that mgs4 ended the series story abruptly in incredibly convoluted ways that Kojima ended up retroactively fixing later with PW and V. The Act 3 and Epilogue story beats of MGS4 were a mess because suddenly characters were catapulted from support crew to primary villains with no explanation, and the Nanomachines explanations for everything felt unsatisfying. (Now that we have the evolutionary track of the Parasites into Cipher's Nanomachines, things end up having a more interesting technological advancement arc)

One thing PW and V do accomplish is they make the narrative arcs for the patriots much more natural if you play 4 after V. Sigint's/DARPA Chief's role in 1 and 4 is hinted at in V in a way that feels like a solid middle beat, as is Paramedic's/Clark's, Zero actually has a good deal of development as a character around the main story in a way that would have left the graveyard scene from 4 as a mind blowing reveal had guns of the patriots been kojima's last game, instead of this.

The Boss AI and Paz's revelations about Cipher from PW, if you were going 1 2 3 PW V 4, would come off as big moments of "Why is cipher doing AI research?" (It isn't until 4 that we find out that the patriots are an AI run by proxies) Additionally, the plot thread of the XOF unit shows how dangerous the proxies can actually be. Big Boss himself, with the Truth mission retconing of the MSX games, has a somewhat natural progression into his graveyard scene in 4.

Some of what happens with Ocelot in V also makes the revelations about him in 4 much more believable in the grand scheme of things. He was ALWAYS on Big Boss's side, and he was a master of hypnosis. It also creates an interesting scenario where the Mantis cameo at the end of act 5 would feel like slightly less of a joke in the grand arc of the series, since he was such a big impact on V with Eli. Moving 4 also makes the progression of the themes work too, and the revelations about certain mystical aspects (Vamp) not feel like a nano-machines cop out, because the knowledge about the parasites from V would contextualize that as a technological duplication of a natural force that is near magic in the first place. What V manages to accomplish is FIX Metal Gear Solid 4, and that's a remarkable feat in and of itself!

The proper order of the games is like the Machette cut of star wars. You play the first 2 games, then the prequel trilogy, then both of them conclude in the end of timeline installment. The graveyard scene is the end of Big Boss's character arc. Gameplay and graphics-wise, this also creates a more natural progression for new players. They go from the simple PS1 game to the growing more complex ps2 games, then pw (which is a step up graphically in HD collection from 3), the comic cutscenes call back to the comic codec calls from 1, and the gameplay is more rudamentary than V and 4, so it ends up being a bridge between the old style gameplay and the new style gameplay.

V is a nextgen realisation of PW's concepts, and then 4 is retroactively a streamlining of V's concepts, with an old solid snake being mixed in to the new gameplay style. MGS4 has more complex combat mechanics than V does, while having a more streamlined component to mother base's GMP and development mechanics in the form of Drebin Points and the War Economy. Plus, you get to close out the series with David Hayter and Christopher Randolf riding off into the sunset, which is more satisfying than closing out on MGSV's incomplete ending.

I really feel like where we are now, this should be the ultimate form of replaying the series going forward. 1 2 3 PW V 4. It makes for a more coherent narrative than the mess that was 4 in its day, and has a solid technological and gameplay evolution to play through, which is key to playing the original 3 games in release order in the first place.

(The only downside is that we're left without the full stories of Kingdom of Flies and Area 51 (MGS:Rising's original story) being told. There's also an implication that Kojima was planning to set a game in 1994, one year before the outer heaven uprising, that we never got to. (possibly a game about The Boss set in WW2 or earlier, or another Revengence game, or a Gray Fox game...) Maybe this is the path the remnants of the studio might take in the future, but we don't really know for sure, and there's not much reason to hope that they end up able to develop a full game without their core staff in the future...)
 

bbd23

Member
well I couldn't finish the game because of the repetitiveness of it and being disappointed by the whole story stuff at the time so I just watched all the cutscenes, saw the ending and the cut stuff....

I really wish I didn't watch any of that and just uninstalled the game and forgot about it.

:(
 

Ashura_MX

Member
You love your mental gymnastics if parasites -> nanomachines is ok in your book.

That's even discounting all the advanced shit parasites are capable of (mist, armor)
 

JackelZXA

Member
You love your mental gymnastics if parasites -> nanomachines is ok in your book.

That's even discounting all the advanced shit parasites are capable of (mist, armor)

it's not mental gymnastics, it's the same functions. they're a synthetic duplication. Nanomachines are capable of giving vamp his super powers and allowing screaming mantis to mind control people and move around dead bodies. When was the last time you played MGS4? Those are straight up super powers. The mist unit is capable of other things, but it's heavily implied that cipher developed nanotechnology from the capabilities of the parasites. nanotechnology is just synthetic cells. Remember when vamp recovered from being shot in the head multiple times and being stabbed through the middle over and over? This is one of the most obvious things in the game. (Fox Die was based on the vocal chord parasites, as well. A bio organism capable of targeting a specific person based on a set of parameters and causing a cellular reaction that results in the death of the victim's internal organs) Like...are you for reals here? I don't believe you if you are questioning that. It feels like you'd be trolling me. It's the most obvious thing in the world.

Next you're going to tell me that Sahelanthropus looking like Rex is mental gymnastics, too. :/
 

Ashura_MX

Member
I'm not questioning it, its stupid he had to go and explain superpowers using Prometheus.
And about rex that's classic Kojima misdirection, fanservice or whatever he smokes, he explains the walking stuff again because explaining stuff is cool.
 

JackelZXA

Member
I'm not questioning it, its stupid he had to go and explain superpowers using Prometheus.
And about rex that's classic Kojima misdirection, fanservice or whatever he smokes, he explains the walking stuff again because explaining stuff is cool.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here so I'll just take it as an okay.

One of the things that I do like about kojima games is the bizarre mix of scifi and magic though. The way those mixed is one of my favorite parts of MGS2 in that final scene with Fortune. Ocelot explains her power away, but then she shows that she can still do it anyway. I feel like MGS4 went too far away from this and I enjoy that MGSV tried to wrangle that back in on "This is not actually manmade, it is technology trying to imitate something they don't actually fully understand." And THAT saves mgs4 for me. Turning the technology of MGS4 into actual proxies of real deal supernatural shit kind of bleeds back into that game in a way that I can totally appreciate.

Additionally, I like that so much of MGSV's shit, the metal gear and mist unit, are SO advanced that they need a supernatural conduit to even work, and only skullface was bold enough to rely on the mist and psycho mantis as the entire backbone of his plan. Cipher's shit still works for me because their stuff ends up being a practical application of the things skull face took too far. They get the tech working in a practical deployment method, and they get metal gear working on it's own power. Sahelanthropus was literally impossible technology, and huey was losing his shit when it was able to move, because psycho mantis was the key to the whole thing. The technological path back to Rex works for me because Rex can work under it's own power, and is still one of the sturdiest, most powerful pieces of technology in the series. Even though it was busted up and in disrepair, it was still able to take out the "anti-metal gear" metal gear, ray. (And it goes to show that Solid Snake is just the best there is)


Additionally, I was thinking about the gameplay evolution more, and I do really like how MGS4 has its own version of the buddy thing, and the oil drum still ends up being useful despite the cardboard box advancements in PP. Going to the end, the metal gear on metal gear fight, and ocelot multi-stage battle, still stand up as great notes to end the series on. (I would have loved Battle Gear vs Sahelanthropus on Kingdom of Flies, but it looks like we'll probably never see that come to pass, sadly)
 

JackelZXA

Member
So you're in love with Kojima, yeah I'm ok with that.

I like Metal Gear games and I like Castlevania games. (Weirdly, I never got far into Silent Hill games. I liked the first one though.)

But yeah like, I like all of the metal gear games for different reasons, as far as we're talking the main 6 or so plus rising. (I lump GZ and PP together as one game for convenience.) They're amazing games that give you something you can't get anywhere else.

I have to admit I was beyond frustrated with MGS4 when I did my second playthrough. Alot of those problems I have are retroactively addressed with V, for the reasons I listed above. (Between Peace and V, they fix how out of nowhere the MGS4 explanations were. now there's a bridge between the two narratives that make it make sense. All I want now is a nextgen rerelease of MGS4 at 60fps and 1080p with up-ressed textures and cleaned up models)
 

AniHawk

Member
Just finished the game.
Not a fan of the that final twist.
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it.
So basically this game is pretty much irrelevant to the serie's overall story?
Why do that? For the sake of having a big shocking twist at the end? Knowing that it wasn't actually Snake feels really disappointing to me and I really don't see a reason why it couldn't have been him.
And how can a random dude (a medic even!) take Big Boss' place just like that?
And what the hell happened to the kids and Sahelanthropus?
Eli is mentioned in that synopsis after the credits but is that all we're getting?
The whole final act just feels so disappointing. Maybe that plot twist is there to fill the void because without it there's nothing left... The game just ends.
Edit: just watched episode 51, that would've gone a long way in giving the game more closure. Shame.

Damn, the feeling of disappointment is really setting in now.

I guess I have some reading to do.
I still haven't seen all the scenes with Paz and god knows what else I'm missing.

I didn't like PW's story and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from this one.
MGS3 is my favorite game in the franchise and at this point I just wish Kojima had left Big Boss' story alone.

mgsv was always going to be the game about big boss's fall. it was always going to make him into a bastard. the story isn't really pointless, but it doesn't have a lot in the continuity that leads to metal gear aside from the stuff happening around venom at the time.

the twist is contextualizing big boss's 'fall'. my understanding of it is that it's him giving into the idea of using a means to an end. it wasn't his plan to use his bestest soldier as a duplicate, but since it had already been set in motion, he basically used it to his advantage. big boss doesn't go from legendary soldier protecting the world to evil asshole bent on controlling it over the course of the game. instead, his priorities shift behind the scenes after flatlining and going into a coma.

in a more direct way, it explains how big boss dies in outer heaven but lives on in zanzibarland. it's because he had his patsy running the show in outer heaven.

i don't think episode 51 would have given the game any closure. in fact, everything with eli and psycho mantis was extremely out of place throughout the game. you could have taken all of it and the volgin stuff out and the game would feel a lot more complete.
 
mgsv was always going to be the game about big boss's fall. it was always going to make him into a bastard. the story isn't really pointless, but it doesn't have a lot in the continuity that leads to metal gear aside from the stuff happening around venom at the time.

the twist is contextualizing big boss's 'fall'. my understanding of it is that it's him giving into the idea of using a means to an end. it wasn't his plan to use his bestest soldier as a duplicate, but since it had already been set in motion, he basically used it to his advantage. big boss doesn't go from legendary soldier protecting the world to evil asshole bent on controlling it over the course of the game. instead, his priorities shift behind the scenes after flatlining and going into a coma.

in a more direct way, it explains how big boss dies in outer heaven but lives on in zanzibarland. it's because he had his patsy running the show in outer heaven.

i don't think episode 51 would have given the game any closure. in fact, everything with eli and psycho mantis was extremely out of place throughout the game. you could have taken all of it and the volgin stuff out and the game would feel a lot more complete.

Really? So we're better off with them just flying away with a metal gear and not seeing them again? Lol, ok.

The problem ended up not being mgs3's story though, it's that mgs4 ended the series story abruptly in incredibly convoluted ways that Kojima ended up retroactively fixing later with PW and V. The Act 3 and Epilogue story beats of MGS4 were a mess because suddenly characters were catapulted from support crew to primary villains with no explanation, and the Nanomachines explanations for everything felt unsatisfying. (Now that we have the evolutionary track of the Parasites into Cipher's Nanomachines, things end up having a more interesting technological advancement arc)

One thing PW and V do accomplish is they make the narrative arcs for the patriots much more natural if you play 4 after V. Sigint's/DARPA Chief's role in 1 and 4 is hinted at in V in a way that feels like a solid middle beat, as is Paramedic's/Clark's, Zero actually has a good deal of development as a character around the main story in a way that would have left the graveyard scene from 4 as a mind blowing reveal had guns of the patriots been kojima's last game, instead of this.

The Boss AI and Paz's revelations about Cipher from PW, if you were going 1 2 3 PW V 4, would come off as big moments of "Why is cipher doing AI research?" (It isn't until 4 that we find out that the patriots are an AI run by proxies) Additionally, the plot thread of the XOF unit shows how dangerous the proxies can actually be. Big Boss himself, with the Truth mission retconing of the MSX games, has a somewhat natural progression into his graveyard scene in 4.

Some of what happens with Ocelot in V also makes the revelations about him in 4 much more believable in the grand scheme of things. He was ALWAYS on Big Boss's side, and he was a master of hypnosis. It also creates an interesting scenario where the Mantis cameo at the end of act 5 would feel like slightly less of a joke in the grand arc of the series, since he was such a big impact on V with Eli. Moving 4 also makes the progression of the themes work too, and the revelations about certain mystical aspects (Vamp) not feel like a nano-machines cop out, because the knowledge about the parasites from V would contextualize that as a technological duplication of a natural force that is near magic in the first place. What V manages to accomplish is FIX Metal Gear Solid 4, and that's a remarkable feat in and of itself!

The proper order of the games is like the Machette cut of star wars. You play the first 2 games, then the prequel trilogy, then both of them conclude in the end of timeline installment. The graveyard scene is the end of Big Boss's character arc. Gameplay and graphics-wise, this also creates a more natural progression for new players. They go from the simple PS1 game to the growing more complex ps2 games, then pw (which is a step up graphically in HD collection from 3), the comic cutscenes call back to the comic codec calls from 1, and the gameplay is more rudamentary than V and 4, so it ends up being a bridge between the old style gameplay and the new style gameplay.

V is a nextgen realisation of PW's concepts, and then 4 is retroactively a streamlining of V's concepts, with an old solid snake being mixed in to the new gameplay style. MGS4 has more complex combat mechanics than V does, while having a more streamlined component to mother base's GMP and development mechanics in the form of Drebin Points and the War Economy. Plus, you get to close out the series with David Hayter and Christopher Randolf riding off into the sunset, which is more satisfying than closing out on MGSV's incomplete ending.

I really feel like where we are now, this should be the ultimate form of replaying the series going forward. 1 2 3 PW V 4. It makes for a more coherent narrative than the mess that was 4 in its day, and has a solid technological and gameplay evolution to play through, which is key to playing the original 3 games in release order in the first place.

(The only downside is that we're left without the full stories of Kingdom of Flies and Area 51 (MGS:Rising's original story) being told. There's also an implication that Kojima was planning to set a game in 1994, one year before the outer heaven uprising, that we never got to. (possibly a game about The Boss set in WW2 or earlier, or another Revengence game, or a Gray Fox game...) Maybe this is the path the remnants of the studio might take in the future, but we don't really know for sure, and there's not much reason to hope that they end up able to develop a full game without their core staff in the future...)

I can agree with most of that but I'm still not happy with how V's turned out. I guess it's merit comes down to trying to make some sense out of certain plot threads in the franchise, but taken on its own it's very weak.
 

Golnei

Member
Really? So we're better off with them just flying away with a metal gear and not seeing them again? Lol, ok.

In the context of the overall plot, it doesn't change anything. We know Liquid and Mantis survive until MGS; we know nothing ever comes of Sahelanthropus. Episode 51 does very little to give the game as a whole closure, it just brings an arbitrary subplot to a forgone conclusion.
 
I thought it was meant to be left as a cliffhanger till I came in the spoiler thread. I had no issues with it. I thought it was a call back to the end of MGS2.

In the context of the overall plot, it doesn't change anything. We know Liquid and Mantis survive until MGS; we know nothing ever comes of Sahelanthropus. Episode 51 does very little to give the game as a whole closure, it just brings an arbitrary subplot to a forgone conclusion.

We'll agree to the disagree then.
A few lines of text certainly weren't enough for me and it seemed pretty obvious at the time for me that this arc wasn't supposed to end there, even before I knew about episode 51.
Eli's arc is obviously missing its climax, just like Quiet's would've been missing hers if her final mission had been cut from the game. But I guess if she had just disappeared from the base and all we got were a couple of lines after the credits telling us what happened to her people would be defending that too.
The fact that it doesn't change anything in the overall plot doesn't change the fact that it hurts the game's story. By that logic, we didn't need to even bother playing V in the first place because we know what ultimately happens to everyone.


At the very least we would've gotten a cool boss fight toward the end of the game and in a new setting to boot.
Game wouldn't have ended on a whimper like it did.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
We'll agree to the disagree then.
A few lines of text certainly weren't enough for me and it seemed pretty obvious at the time for me that this arc wasn't supposed to end there, even before I knew about episode 51.
Eli's arc is obviously missing its climax, just like Quiet's would've been missing hers if her final mission had been cut from the game. But I guess if she had just disappeared from the base and all we got were a couple of lines after the credits telling us what happened to her people would be defending that too.

That's not quite what happened with Eli. There is a very cool cutscene showing his daring escape and him flying off with Snuffleupagus. I took that as the climax of his arc and, again, as a call back to Liquid Ocelot's escape at the very end of MGS2. That's not comparable to simply removing Quiet after Kaz informs you she has gone.
 

AniHawk

Member
Really? So we're better off with them just flying away with a metal gear and not seeing them again? Lol, ok.

liquid, volgin, and psycho mantis offer extremely little to the plot. they don't do much in the way of venom's character, or big boss's turn. you could cut them out completely and lose nothing in the story (and just need a couple tweaks so that skull face suddenly figures out how to remote control st-84 and it goes out of control in some other fashion). you could have still had child soldiers, you could have still had venom put them into schools for some ill-advised reason, and that would have been fine.

quiet is, funny enough, not integral to the plot either. she's a completely optional character. however, her addition helps more with venom's development. or at least it helps venom contrast with big boss more. big boss is willing to put his most trusted allies in direct danger while he goes into hiding to do his thing. venom surrounds himself with people he trusts and grows close to many people, quiet being one of them. she also has scenes that connect directly with the main plot of the parasites, such as her trying to shove her knife down one guy's throat, and being a big part of miller's growing (and sometimes founded) paranoia and rage. she's also a gameplay feature, which does more to have the player connect to the character if they choose her as a buddy.

psycho mantis and volgin just kind of show up now and again whenever a boss battle or something tense was about to happen. and liquid is just some little shit that gets his ass kicked at least two but a planned three number of times with really no meaning behind it. i guess the revelation that eli's not venom's clone is foreshadowing what happens with the plot twist, but i don't think anything about eli in particular highlights anything interesting about venom.
 
That's not quite what happened with Eli. There is a very cool cutscene showing his daring escape and him flying off with Snuffleupagus. I took that as the climax of his arc and, again, as a call back to Liquid Ocelot's escape at the very end of MGS2. That's not comparable to simply removing Quiet after Kaz informs you she has gone.

They go through all that trouble to stop the most dangerous weapon in the world and then a bunch of kids run away with it and they don't bother going after them?
The fact that we know that nothing came of it is beside the point. This doesn't bother you?
It doesn't make sense that they didn't do everything in their power to get it back right away.
Or am I missing something here?
 

heringer

Member
I really don't get the "but how can a random dude do all this awesome shit" complaints.

Wasn't Snake a rookie nobody back in MG (yes he was a clone, but this was retconed only in MGS)? Wasn't Raiden in MGS2? What about Big Boss in his early days?

The game establishes that Venom was the best MSF soldier, so it's no surprise the dude can kick ass.
 
The game establishes that Venom was the best MSF soldier, so it's no surprise the dude can kick ass.

I think a big part of it is the idea that, as other people were describing, it's more about the legend than the man. Someone else with a decent amount of skill could pull off Big Boss-esque feats when he's given the opportunity and resources. There's a crazy amount of people that exist solely to help Big Boss, back him up and give him information/medical assistance.
 

Erigu

Member
They go through all that trouble to stop the most dangerous weapon in the world and then a bunch of kids run away with it and they don't bother going after them?
The fact that we know that nothing came of it is beside the point. This doesn't bother you?
It doesn't make sense that they didn't do everything in their power to get it back right away.
Or am I missing something here?
Yes, actually: you didn't mention that bit about Eli having the last sample of the English strain.
Not sure how anybody could argue that the story is just fine the way it is. There obviously is something missing. Like, y'know, a conclusion.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Yes, actually: you didn't mention that bit about Eli having the last sample of the English strain.
Not sure how anybody could argue that the story is just fine the way it is. There obviously is something missing. Like, y'know, a conclusion.

They call them "cliffhangers". Don't watch the original Italian Job or The Thing, you'll go nuts. :3

Technically, the "conclusion" is that they got away.

They go through all that trouble to stop the most dangerous weapon in the world and then a bunch of kids run away with it and they don't bother going after them?

They can't, can they? Their only chopper got pinched. ;)

The fact that we know that nothing came of it is beside the point. This doesn't bother you?

Nope. As I've already said, I saw it as a cliffhanger and a call back to MGS2. I assumed at the time that it would be picked up again in a future Metal Gear title.

So, yeah.
 

Erigu

Member
They call them "cliffhangers".
"They" being "people who don't know that the conclusion to Eli's arc was supposed to be in the game but had to be cut, that Kojima is gone from Konami, and that he calls the game "the end of the Metal Gear saga""?

Technically, the "conclusion" is that they got away.
That's not what a conclusion is. If your power goes out halfway into a movie, that doesn't magically turn the last scene you managed to see into a "conclusion".
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
"They" being "people who don't know that the conclusion to Eli's arc was supposed to be in the game but had to be cut, that Kojima is gone from Konami, and that he calls the game "the end of the Metal Gear saga""?

Yup.

Although to be fair, every game after MGS was meant to be the last.

That's not what a conclusion is. If your power goes out halfway into a movie, that doesn't magically turn the last scene you managed to see into a "conclusion".

Hey, a false equivalency! I recognise that!
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
That's not what a false equivalency is either.

You're equating my acceptance of the ending of a story as presented to taking a power cut as an actual conclusion to a story. They share a trait (they both end abruptly) but are not equivalent, hence false equivalency.
 

Erigu

Member
You're equating my acceptance of the ending of a story as presented to taking a power cut as an actual conclusion to a story. They share a trait (they both end abruptly) but are not equivalent, hence false equivalency.
We know for a fact that the conclusion to Eli / Mantis / the Child Soldiers / the third English strand sample / Sahelanthropus' arcs was cut. It's missing. It takes absurd mental gymnastics to try and argue that what we did get was an actual conclusion to those arcs.
So yeah, the analogy stands, sorry: they both end abruptly where they weren't supposed to end, with obviously missing story beats.
Or, considering this is about the conclusion to some specific arcs, maybe you'd like it better if I talked about missing/skipped chapters towards the end of a Blu-ray?
 
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