MGS4 ending whining thread (major spoilers)

Eh by killing himself Snake would have made the ending more rational AND fulfilling. I'm not even stating that he HAS to kill himself. I just wanted anything else than the current ending with endless yada yada that we got ages ago.

Maybe it sounded intellecual if you hadn't payed attention during the games.
 
zoukka said:
Eh by killing himself Snake would have made the ending more rational AND fulfilling. I'm not even stating that he HAS to kill himself. I just wanted anything else than the current ending with endless yada yada that we got ages ago.

Maybe it sounded intellecual if you hadn't payed attention during the games.

wtf? So because I think that the ending was good, I didn't pay attention to the games?

How would Snake dying be fulfilling? He's spent his whole life fighting. He's gone through torture. He's lost friends. His "brother" is trying to kill him. And then you want him to die? I find it much more fulfilling that Snake lived. I think the it was they laid out was pretty bad. Big Boss just saying "oh, btw: that virus won't kill you anymore" was badly done, but Snake living some sort of life without fighting is more rewarding than him just dying.
 
The big problem isn't even Snake's suicide.

It's just the amount of plot holes, retarded explanations and cop outs in the story. I guess some people just plain don't see it or just decide to ignore it, but to deem the ending as anything close to a perfect ending, is just stupid imo.
 
WrikaWrek said:
The big problem isn't even Snake's suicide.

It's just the amount of plot holes, retarded explanations and cop outs in the story. I guess some people just plain don't see it or just decide to ignore it, but to deem the ending as anything close to a perfect ending, is just stupid imo.


It's not perfect but they could have done far worse.
 
FabCam said:
wtf? So because I think that the ending was good, I didn't pay attention to the games?

It was directed to the person who said something like "if you didn't like it, you're dumb" and shit.

How would Snake dying be fulfilling? He's spent his whole life fighting. He's gone through torture. He's lost friends. His "brother" is trying to kill him. And then you want him to die? I find it much more fulfilling that Snake lived. I think the it was they laid out was pretty bad. Big Boss just saying "oh, btw: that virus won't kill you anymore" was badly done, but Snake living some sort of life without fighting is more rewarding than him just dying.

Like I said, I don't WANT Snake killing himself, but it just seemed more reasonable and rational. I just felt so sorry for the guy when Otacon painted his future in the end... it seemed even more grim than biting the bullet.
 
Snake killing himself seemed better to me, but not from some "awww that's sad" angle, but more from the angle that it was one final way for him to just give fate a big middle finger. He spent his entire life fighting, so him getting a somewhat happy ending all of a sudden just didn't mesh well with the rest of the game. We see him just struggling to STAND some times, but he manages to get away in the end with a few months left to be happy and see the world?
 
Totz said:
I thought the explanation would be that since Ocelot is the son of The Sorrow, he inherited some of his father's abilities. Thus, a dead Liquid was able to possess him.

MGS4's explanation was sad... so sad...

Wow...thats really good man that would have been a great explanation.
 
Ten-Song said:
Snake killing himself seemed better to me, but not from some "awww that's sad" angle, but more from the angle that it was one final way for him to just give fate a big middle finger. He spent his entire life fighting, so him getting a somewhat happy ending all of a sudden just didn't mesh well with the rest of the game. We see him just struggling to STAND some times, but he manages to get away in the end with a few months left to be happy and see the world?
not even. he's most likely stuck in some remote region in alaska waiting to die with no physical contact with anyone whatsoever
 
Ten-Song said:
Snake killing himself seemed better to me, but not from some "awww that's sad" angle, but more from the angle that it was one final way for him to just give fate a big middle finger. He spent his entire life fighting, so him getting a somewhat happy ending all of a sudden just didn't mesh well with the rest of the game. We see him just struggling to STAND some times, but he manages to get away in the end with a few months left to be happy and see the world?

giving fate a big middle finger is such a lame and pointless reason to commit suicide imo. Snake's original reason is noble and admirable. he want to commit suicide so fox die don't kill random people and create epidemic. but since the game decide that the new foxdie kill the old one so Snake don't have to worry about the mutated foxdie anytime soon, there's no reason to commit suicide anymore
 
sechsterangriff said:
* enters the thread *

* reads *

* facepalm.gif *

* leaves *

NinjaFridge said:
I liked the ending. Maybe i will make a thread everytime i don't agree with an ending, be it in a movie, game or book.
This is the kind of shit that's utterly worthless. You don't like it, don't fucking post in here (isn't this shit bannable now?). And, yes, you could make a thread about anything so long as it is capable of generating some kind of reasonable discourse. You people actually annoy the fuck out of me with your narrow views that shut out any type of alternate reaction or opinion. You're on a fucking forum, something designed expressly for discussion and not just a lot of agreement. There's no one way to think.
 
Callibretto said:
giving fate a big middle finger is such a lame and pointless reason to commit suicide imo. Snake's original reason is noble and admirable. he want to commit suicide so fox die don't kill random people and create epidemic. but since the game decide that the new foxdie kill the old one so Snake don't have to worry about the mutated foxdie anytime soon, there's no reason to commit suicide anymore

You speak sense.
 
Callibretto said:
but since the game decide that the new foxdie kill the old one so Snake don't have to worry about the mutated foxdie anytime soon, there's no reason to commit suicide anymore

Snake didn't knew about that though did he?

Not to mention, total cop out. "Oh look, we just invented something, what we said 4 hours ago was bs". Such cheating.
 
Steiner_Zi said:
When the first credits started to roll, I felt unsatisfied from the end, simply because nothing totally unexpected had happened until that point. Ironically, I felt the EXACT same thing when Naked Snake was banging Eva in MGS3, only to be blown away minutes later.:D

The scene with Big Boss serves as
a) the big plot twist of the game and of everything that had happened until this point,
b) further explaining the motives of the Patriots and the people who founded the organisation,
c) the death of Zero -the man who started it all- and
d) the final peacemaking between the two protagonists of the series, Big Boss and Snake, father and son, and between Big Boss and his dead mentor, the Boss; giving each character the peace he deserves.
If the game ended with the cliche "happy end when the main hero dies" would be a massive dissappointment for me. This is the easiest way to evoke emotion but it has been used so many times in films and anime nowadays that I've grown to dislike it. The way Kojima ended the game, Snake finally escapes from being a prisoner of fate (both from the Patriots and the Foxdie), receives recognition from his father and achieves peace until he dies.

Essentially, the final scene not only does not downgrade everything that happened in the MGS series, but on the contrary serves as the catharsis of the story.
.
 
Since finishing the game, I've taken a lot of time and turned the whole story and ending over and over in my head several times, looked at it from all the angles that other posters have presented, and I still think it's inferior to MGS3. Different people have provided some great justifications as to why/how they feel it was very satisfying or even perfect, and I definitely respect that. But for me I'm still just dissatisfied with how things were handled.

I know it's been said a million times, but I really was expecting Kojima to make us pull the trigger on Snake, and toward the end like others I thought it would end up being a noble thing to do, since he would soon become a walking doomsday device. He would finally give every last bit of his life protecting mankind, and it would be extremely concrete since we would know for sure how and when he died. This game instead went with a happier ending, which is OK for some, but I was really expecting the suicide scene. People mention that it's a cliche, but how many other games have done that? Particularly really popular series' like MGS? Apparently it's a trend in anime, but I don't watch anime so to me it was a pretty original concept for a game. For me personally, much of the impact was lost because of this. I like surprises, so I like the twist on the credits with the pause on Big Boss' voice actor, Kojima got me on that one for sure. It was still strange to see him there, but I can appreciate the final resolution that scene provided, even if I preferred Snake's suicide.

(Side note-as for the gunshot we hear, is it possible that it came from the Patriot Big Boss was carrying? Maybe he saw Snake about to kill himself and shot it in the air, and Snake removed the gun from his mouth and fell down sweating, panting, before he realized exactly what happened. The only other possible explanation is that he accidentally shot it after he took it out of his mouth, or maybe he jerked it out of his mouth and shot it elsewhere in one final attempt to keep himself from pulling the trigger on himself, and was still reacting from the emotional impact.)

My first moment of story disappointment came at the very beginning of Act 2, when Snake is crawling through the brush while his conversation with Campbell plays, where he says that the twelve founders of the Patriots bit was "a load of crap." That was a big red flag for me, that they would take something so mysterious and something that was apparently a huge piece of backstory (in fans' eyes, anyway) and play it off as just false information.
Perhaps that was the intention all along, but that just seemed lazy. I'm somewhat satisfied with Vamp's explanation, but I have to wonder that if they had nanomachines capable of such healing, why weren't they more widespread? That's a tiny issue admittedly, but something I thought of right away.

I also think the Liquid Ocelot facet in this game is a double-edged sword at best. Someone else here (I forget who or I'd give credit) worded it well explaining how Ocelot ended up being very similar to the Boss, in that he gave his life for the mission, which of course in this game was to end the Patriots' reign. (Fitting since he's her son). I think that is pretty brilliant now that I look back on it. On the flipside, though, I really was expecting what was seemingly happening, a true complete possession by Liquid. It felt like a "just kidding, lol" moment when I learned the truth at the end. I also think the game could have used one more boss fight at the end, something truly massive in scale. The fight with Liquid Ocelot on top of Haven was a nice parallel to the Rex fight in MGS1, but I was expecting something else to happen afterwards.

I think Act 3 is a really creative take on the stealth gameplay, and a fantastic throwback to one of MGS3's more memorable stages with the motorcycle ride, but the more I think about it the more I get the feeling that fanservice was too much of an influence in this game for it's own good. I love seeing nods to other games in a series, whether overt or subtle, and I know that Kojima had to include such characters and scenes as a means of tying up loose story ends, but it's just such a contrast to MGS3, where we got so many new faces.

Anyway, that was too long and I appreciate anybody who actually read all the way through it. As far as the overall story and game development went, I was reading Ether_Snake's thread over at TUS (I won't link to it since he's currently banned here) and I think he's on to something with it, despite the conspiracy theory accusations he got in a few of the replies. I can't say every bit of it is probably true, but like him I have a feeling that the overall story and scenario of this game underwent some massive changes during development, for the worse. I think the original concept was probably significantly more complex.

I would love to see an alternate ending or two in the eventual Director's Cut of this game.
 
Always-honest said:
oh my, avatar boy feels personaly insulted.... don't identify yourself too much with something you bought....

At least I am not offended by a game.

Edit: Oh wait. I found Pacman slightly racist. Sorry about that.
 
My first moment of story disappointment came at the very beginning of Act 2, when Snake is crawling through the brush while his conversation with Campbell plays, where he says that the twelve founders of the Patriots bit was "a load of crap." That was a big red flag for me, that they would take something so mysterious and something that was apparently a huge piece of backstory (in fans' eyes, anyway) and play it off as just false information.

I thought this was pretty obviously explained...... the 12 names that were divulged were the names of the "philosophers" (pre-cursors to the patriots, who did die about 100 years ago"?
 
What's with people in favor of snake killing himself? wtf?, that's a lame way to go for such a badass!, also it's not like his story ended in a happy ever after tone, the guy aged prematurely and HE KNOWS he is going to die very soon.
 
Kai said:
I thought this was pretty obviously explained...... the 12 names that were divulged were the names of the "philosophers" (pre-cursors to the patriots, who did die about 100 years ago"?

I was just hoping they would flesh that part of the backstory out a lot more than they did. You're correct though.

SSM25 said:
What's with people in favor of snake killing himself? wtf?, that's a lame way to go for such a badass!, also it's not like his story ended in a happy ever after tone, the guy aged prematurely and HE KNOWS he is going to die very soon.

It wouldn't be lame if he did it to save the world. But it would only have worked if they didn't include the new Foxdie counteracting the old Foxdie twist. He would be taking his own life so he wouldn't kill multitudes of people.
 
So for people who hated the story in MGS2, how many like the one in MGS4?

The ending in itself didn't bother me, but MGS is so full of cheesy scene, pretentiousness, psycho-babble, dialog that drags on and on, etc. that even a devout fan like me who was able to stomach the story in MGS2 feels that enough is enough. So many great things in MGS4, and such awesome direction, but those things do bring down the story for me.

Also, MGS4 made me feel how important it is to have the player have at least some input on how the story (or even small sub-plots) should proceed. I don't believe in fate or that certain people are born for a specific reason, but I had to see Snake agree or at least not object to that.
 
Miburou said:
Also, MGS4 made me feel how important it is to have the player have at least some input on how the story (or even small sub-plots) should proceed. I don't believe in fate or that certain people are born for a specific reason, but I had to see Snake agree or at least not object to that.
You mean, ruin the story.
 
Zaptruder said:
Besides, Snake is essentially screwed anyway; he's got months to live, he's not making a another game or a cameo appearance. Infact, all the Snakes are dead, period.

Just wait until in MGS6 it is revealed that Eisenhower came right after Snake had spoken to Big Boss, told him that Einstein had in fact found a way for time travel, and that Michey Mouse controls the world's fate from a parallel reality and must be stopped.
 
Endymion said:
Just wait until in MGS6 it is revealed that Eisenhower came right after Snake had spoken with Big Boss, tells him that Einstein had in fact found a way for time travel, and that Michey Mouse controls the world's fate from a parallel reality and must be stopped.

MGS-Kingdom Hearts crossover confirmed.
 
Really don't get the "Snake is dead anyway" talk. The amount of dead people that run around in the series is pretty high and if they really want to, they will just throw a new kind of nanomachines at us and Snake is back being a teenager. Can't wait for my Metal Gear Dating Sim.
 
Won said:
Really don't get the "Snake is dead anyway" talk. The amount of dead people that run around in the series is pretty high and if they really want to, they will just throw a new kind of nanomachines at us and Snake is back being a teenager. Can't wait for my Metal Gear Dating Sim.

Fairy dust solves everything!
 
Miburou said:
Oh, give it a rest. You don't even try to sound reasonable. You're like the worst MGS "fan" ever.
When players are allowed to put in their control over the story, it screws story.

It's like when I was playing Assassin's Creed, I kept turning around in circles during the "cutscene" and I turned Assassin's Creed's serious atmosphere into a laughing stock for my friends.

Player driven story ends up being shallow with no real depth. Depth needs to be completely controlled by the writer.
 
Sorry but even MGS is a game.

Snake Eaters end was perfect. The shot was un-avoidable, but if you pulled the trigger you did it yourself. You made the decision.

Of course I pussied out the first time through but it worked nonetheless.
 
Farnack said:
When players are allowed to put in their control over the story, it screws story.

It's like when I was playing Assassin's Creed, I kept turning around in circles during the "cutscene" and I turned Assassin's Creed's serious atmosphere into a laughing stock for my friends.

Player driven story ends up being shallow with no real depth. Depth needs to be completely controlled by the writer.

He was talking about deciding where the story went (Mass Effect) in certain scenarios, not the ability to move around when NPCs are talking to you.

And honestly, if you are just moving around doing retarded circles, maybe that's your own damn fault, after all, the character is just responding to your decisions. Since i don't consider myself a moron, i would try and listen to what the NPC was talking about.

And what Depth is this you talk about? Is there any more depth than to have a player struggle with making a choice, and wonder to himself later, like he does in real life, whether he made the right choice?

Anyway, i don't agree that all games should let the player control the story of the game, and i don't think it would've made MGS4 a better game.
 
Farnack said:
When players are allowed to put in their control over the story, it screws story.

It's like when I was playing Assassin's Creed, I kept turning around in circles during the "cutscene" and I turned Assassin's Creed's serious atmosphere into a laughing stock for my friends.

Player driven story ends up being shallow with no real depth. Depth needs to be completely controlled by the writer.

You're the one that did that though. If you wanted it to be serious, you could have sat the controller down and watched it like you do with MGS games.
 
WrikaWrek said:
He was talking about deciding where the story went (Mass Effect) in certain scenarios, not the ability to move around when NPCs are talking to you.

And honestly, if you are just moving around doing retarded circles, maybe that's your own damn fault, after all, the character is just responding to your decisions. Since i don't consider myself a moron, i would try and listen to what the NPC was talking about.

And what Depth is this you talk about? Is there any more depth than to have a player struggle with making a choice, and wonder to himself later, like he does in real life, whether he made the right choice?

Anyway, i don't agree that all games should let the player control the story of the game, and i don't think it would've made MGS4 a better game.
It's my fault that I wasn't doing what was intended? That's counterintuitive on the part of why I was able to do it in the first place. What you're saying is that it's the player's fault for being able to have player control.

Instead of being able to control Altair and dicking around, they could have controlled Altair's movements, given him more character in the way he responds in the cutscene. That is depth.

If Kojima let me
shoot Campbell's face at the beginning of the game when they first meet, then time paradox be damned.
Ten-Song said:
You're the one that did that though. If you wanted it to be serious, you could have sat the controller down and watched it like you do with MGS games.
Except that Altair just does nothing. He should be doing something to show his character development, but he's just a log if you just put down the controller.
 
Farnack said:
It's my fault that I wasn't doing what was intended? That's counterintuitive on the part of why I was able to do it in the first place. What you're saying is that it's the player's fault for being able to have player control.

Instead of being able to control Altair and dicking around, they could have controlled Altair's movements, given him more character in the way he responds in the cutscene. That is depth.

If Kojima let me
shoot Campbell's face at the beginning of the game when they first meet, then time paradox be damned.

Except that Altair just does nothing. He should be doing something to show his character development, but he's just a log if you just put down the controller.

I'd rather have more interactivity than the extra "depth" of story. I want to actually touch the controller. All player interaction does for a game's story, is point out that none of them are really interesting or well conveyed.
 
antiloop said:
At least I am not offended by a game.

not by the game, but offend by the writers of some parts of some of the cutscenes.
But for people that never experienced anything in real life yet, i guess some of those scenes were really emotional.....................
 
Ten-Song said:
I'd rather have more interactivity than the extra "depth" of story. I want to actually touch the controller. All player interaction does for a game's story, is point out that none of them are really interesting or well conveyed.
So you would like to have something like, being able to shoot yourself as the ending?

Yeah, that'd mess up the ending real good.
 
Farnack said:
So you would like to have something like, being able to shoot yourself as the ending?

Yeah, that'd mess up the ending real good.

I'm not arrogant enough to lay down one answer that can work for all games, it's all case by case, I'd just rather have more moments where I have a direct say over the game. The more time I spend playing the game, the better.

I've played through the game about five times now, and every time after the first play through, I just skip every cutscene... and when I do that, I come to realize how little game there actually is in MGS4.
 
@ Farnack

Why does the shittiness of AC rule out the possibility of good player interaction for a story? It doesn't have to be complete freedom you know.
 
zoukka said:
@ Farnack

Why does the shittiness of AC rule out the possibility of good player interaction for a story? It doesn't have to be complete freedom you know.

Portal still stands as a far better example than Assassin's Creed could ever dream of.
 
Farnack said:
When players are allowed to put in their control over the story, it screws story.

It's like when I was playing Assassin's Creed, I kept turning around in circles during the "cutscene" and I turned Assassin's Creed's serious atmosphere into a laughing stock for my friends.

Player driven story ends up being shallow with no real depth. Depth needs to be completely controlled by the writer.

Planescape Torment. Player driven story. No real depth.

Okay, if that's how you feel.
 
The main problem with the ending, and the story in general is the idea that Ocelot planned basically all the events in the story. It pissed me off in MGS1 and it pisses me off even more in MGS4. Snake really contributed nothing to the end of the patriots. Naomi could have just given Ocelot the virus that she/Sunny had developed without the need for Snake at all. Kojima basically made Snake useless with his incredibly stupid conspiracy story.
 
I think my preference of the ending rather than snake just kill himself all boils down to me loving Big Boss' hug, salute, and last cigar moment so much that I wouldn't trade any of that to Snake's suicide. I admit some of the last monologue is dragging too much, but those 3 moment I mentioned just over powered those boring moment too much in term of emotional impact. also, I think the ending fits in very nicely with other character's story of redemption. Campbell want to make up to Meryl, Naomi want to finish the virus, Big Boss killing Zero, and Snake got his redemption from Big Boss.

I'll just say this, after watching the ending, I'm feeling emotional, I'm happy and sad at the same time that Snake didn't die, but he only got few months left to live.

if they choose the suicide ending, I may get emotional too, but it's all negative emotion. I may not want to play the game again because I don't want to watch Snake suicide again and again.
 
Johnas said:
Since finishing the game, I've taken a lot of time and turned the whole story and ending over and over in my head several times, looked at it from all the angles that other posters have presented, and I still think it's inferior to MGS3. Different people have provided some great justifications as to why/how they feel it was very satisfying or even perfect, and I definitely respect that. But for me I'm still just dissatisfied with how things were handled.

I know it's been said a million times, but I really was expecting Kojima to make us pull the trigger on Snake, and toward the end like others I thought it would end up being a noble thing to do, since he would soon become a walking doomsday device. He would finally give every last bit of his life protecting mankind, and it would be extremely concrete since we would know for sure how and when he died. This game instead went with a happier ending, which is OK for some, but I was really expecting the suicide scene. People mention that it's a cliche, but how many other games have done that? Particularly really popular series' like MGS? Apparently it's a trend in anime, but I don't watch anime so to me it was a pretty original concept for a game. For me personally, much of the impact was lost because of this. I like surprises, so I like the twist on the credits with the pause on Big Boss' voice actor, Kojima got me on that one for sure. It was still strange to see him there, but I can appreciate the final resolution that scene provided, even if I preferred Snake's suicide.

(Side note-as for the gunshot we hear, is it possible that it came from the Patriot Big Boss was carrying? Maybe he saw Snake about to kill himself and shot it in the air, and Snake removed the gun from his mouth and fell down sweating, panting, before he realized exactly what happened. The only other possible explanation is that he accidentally shot it after he took it out of his mouth, or maybe he jerked it out of his mouth and shot it elsewhere in one final attempt to keep himself from pulling the trigger on himself, and was still reacting from the emotional impact.)

My first moment of story disappointment came at the very beginning of Act 2, when Snake is crawling through the brush while his conversation with Campbell plays, where he says that the twelve founders of the Patriots bit was "a load of crap." That was a big red flag for me, that they would take something so mysterious and something that was apparently a huge piece of backstory (in fans' eyes, anyway) and play it off as just false information.
Perhaps that was the intention all along, but that just seemed lazy. I'm somewhat satisfied with Vamp's explanation, but I have to wonder that if they had nanomachines capable of such healing, why weren't they more widespread? That's a tiny issue admittedly, but something I thought of right away.

I also think the Liquid Ocelot facet in this game is a double-edged sword at best. Someone else here (I forget who or I'd give credit) worded it well explaining how Ocelot ended up being very similar to the Boss, in that he gave his life for the mission, which of course in this game was to end the Patriots' reign. (Fitting since he's her son). I think that is pretty brilliant now that I look back on it. On the flipside, though, I really was expecting what was seemingly happening, a true complete possession by Liquid. It felt like a "just kidding, lol" moment when I learned the truth at the end. I also think the game could have used one more boss fight at the end, something truly massive in scale. The fight with Liquid Ocelot on top of Haven was a nice parallel to the Rex fight in MGS1, but I was expecting something else to happen afterwards.

I think Act 3 is a really creative take on the stealth gameplay, and a fantastic throwback to one of MGS3's more memorable stages with the motorcycle ride, but the more I think about it the more I get the feeling that fanservice was too much of an influence in this game for it's own good. I love seeing nods to other games in a series, whether overt or subtle, and I know that Kojima had to include such characters and scenes as a means of tying up loose story ends, but it's just such a contrast to MGS3, where we got so many new faces.

Anyway, that was too long and I appreciate anybody who actually read all the way through it. As far as the overall story and game development went, I was reading Ether_Snake's thread over at TUS (I won't link to it since he's currently banned here) and I think he's on to something with it, despite the conspiracy theory accusations he got in a few of the replies. I can't say every bit of it is probably true, but like him I have a feeling that the overall story and scenario of this game underwent some massive changes during development, for the worse. I think the original concept was probably significantly more complex.

I would love to see an alternate ending or two in the eventual Director's Cut of this game.

Weren't you dissapointed with the end of MGS 3 then?
Because thats what MGS 3 ending did, it made that part in MGS 2 with the 12 wisemen a load of crap.:P
Personally the only complaint i have with the story is the plot-holes and retconning, but it's pretty much MGS 3 and PO fault anyway. And the people who hated MGS 2 storyline.<_<
 
so I just finished the game. I liked the gameplay and different twists to it, but for story/writing/directing/ending it was probably some of the worst and totally useless shit I've ever seen. Ending was a fucking disaster.
 
What's so cool about killing yourself? Suicide is for pussies.

Snake has been unkillable and untouchable through a series of tough missions.
He's made sacrifices above and beyond, there would have been something incredibly pogniant about him making the ultimate sacrifice for the world (killing himself to prevent the spread). The only person who could truly kill Snake was Snake.

It's weird - at that point i thought "that's a pretty awesome ending, props to Kojima - the rest has been mostly terrible, but a good ending" ... and then he pops in with the "real" ending and basically turns it into something laughable and completed what seemed to be a driving need to have every single character/element ever involved in MGS to date in the game in some way/shape/form.

Is this really the end of the Snake arc? Maybe it's not, and not killing him leaves that option on the table. When faced with the ultimate ending to the series, Kojima was the one who is the pussy here i'm afraid.
 
Farnack said:
Instead of being able to control Altair and dicking around, they could have controlled Altair's movements, given him more character in the way he responds in the cutscene. That is depth.

instead of dicking around like an idiot, the depth here is one where AC challenges you to not act out your most ridiculous id fantasies as a gamer.

its deep

its meta

its kojimama

and it looks like you failed that challenge
 
BruceLeeRoy said:
Wow...thats really good man that would have been a great explanation.

Nah, I think your theory (some people call it the Digital Theory) is better. It fits in with the MGS4 theme of "preserving a person's mind after he has passed away" a lot better, and that's what a lot of people expected the explanation to be. The Sorrow explanation is just sort of random, akin to the DARPA = Sigint theory (which turned out to be true, WTF, they don't even have the same voice and build, they're just two black guys in the same company).
 
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