MGS4 ending whining thread (major spoilers)
- Thread starter James Power
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U K Narayan said:
Agreed.
Although over time the Big Boss coming back has sunk in, nothing can purge kojima from the over-expositionary dialogue in the final graveyard scene and the stupid meryl/johnny love angle.
Get a fucking editor, kojima! Although I was dying to see Big Boss in all his HD PS3 graphical glory by the end I was starting to get sick and tired of BB because he wouldn't shut up and die :lol Its a shame cause the character model and the VA was soooo good.
Diablos said:
Well, then why let Snake live at the end? What purpose does it serve? As you said, he hardly has any time left to him, he's far too old to do anything, and he isn't meant to be in any more Metal Gear Solid games. Why give the illusion that everything is alright with him?
Snake sacrificed so much to reach the resolution at the end of Metal Gear Solid 4. It would be fitting (and in line with what Big Boss spells out at the end) if he, like The Boss before him, gave his life for the sake of liberty. This just seems like a hollow way of trying to make things work out.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
The ending sucked because Kojima doesn't have a good editor telling him when to cut that shit out and move along. It should have had way more emotional impact than it did, but, no. Kojima had to make Big Boss keep on fucking talking over and over and over again, and it ruined the moment. In fact, I would say that the MGS4 story as a whole suffered from the same problem as the ending: to drawn out. Some things didn't need to be explained and the things that did need to be explained, weren't. And of course, if you don't feel like explaining anything just blame it on the nanomachines.
MGS3's story is still so much better than this, and that's mainly because of The Boss' storyline. Simple and to the point, and didn't suffer from the lame plot device floating through every single person skulls.
Oh, and as for Raiden, he was still a whiny bitch in this. I don't care if he stopped a fucking boat with no arms, Grey Fox didn't sound anywhere near as terrible as him. He might be able to break dance with knives, but, in terms of storyline and characteristics he still isn't better than snake: who was dieing and didn't complain nearly as much.
MGS3's story is still so much better than this, and that's mainly because of The Boss' storyline. Simple and to the point, and didn't suffer from the lame plot device floating through every single person skulls.
Oh, and as for Raiden, he was still a whiny bitch in this. I don't care if he stopped a fucking boat with no arms, Grey Fox didn't sound anywhere near as terrible as him. He might be able to break dance with knives, but, in terms of storyline and characteristics he still isn't better than snake: who was dieing and didn't complain nearly as much.
Oldschoolgamer said:
In fact, he's even whinier in this than he was in MGS2.
"Nobody loves me! I have no family! I can only belong on the battlefield! I can never escape my past!"
He's impossible to relate to and over-emotional, and no amount of cool, over-the-top stunts can change that.
I didn't like that the epilogue was so long. I really didn't care what happened to Raiden, Sunny, Meryl, and Johnny enough to devote that much time to them.
MGS4 was a great game that should have been twice as long and had half as much expository dialog.
MGS4 was a great game that should have been twice as long and had half as much expository dialog.
It's actually really shity to play the game skipping the cutscenes since there are two or three for every "room". I would have liked briefer story parts over what i got.davepoobond said:
James Power
Banned
The way Otacon mourns Snake's demise at the airport and explains it to the little girl ("He had a hard life.") kind of comes off rather serious for the character and has quite some redeeming qualities for his otherwise quirky appearance.
The whole pre first credit ending gives the game a touch of credibility many of the other cutscenes don't have. Snake killing himself is the only way for this character to exit the stage, the only one that makes sense after all this and the only one that has any meaning whatsoever. It's a final that gives the game weight.
The post first credit ending on the other hand adds nothing to the game or to its resolution. In fact it reverts the whole importance of what just came right before it. It degrades the whole series to a new low and lets it fade into oblivion without having anything to say. Snake surviving (Where did the bullet go? Did he realize he's been shot a million times during the series so one bullet didn't hurt him at all?) is just the cheap way out. Kojima didn't have the courage to let this character die which wouldn't have been that bad if he didn't imply the idea in the first place.
The whole pre first credit ending gives the game a touch of credibility many of the other cutscenes don't have. Snake killing himself is the only way for this character to exit the stage, the only one that makes sense after all this and the only one that has any meaning whatsoever. It's a final that gives the game weight.
The post first credit ending on the other hand adds nothing to the game or to its resolution. In fact it reverts the whole importance of what just came right before it. It degrades the whole series to a new low and lets it fade into oblivion without having anything to say. Snake surviving (Where did the bullet go? Did he realize he's been shot a million times during the series so one bullet didn't hurt him at all?) is just the cheap way out. Kojima didn't have the courage to let this character die which wouldn't have been that bad if he didn't imply the idea in the first place.
Dabookerman
Member
Farnack said:
It's like me posting using someone elses account!
The ending was perfect.
"He had a hard life" made me chock :_;
Choke on the Magic
Banned
Blame! said:
That would be me so why do I love it? Anomaly?
so is this a new GAF record? the games been out for what 3 weeks and the backlash is allready coming down full force ? For the record I had no problems with the ending it didn't seem half assed or anything to me and the angle they chose is quite a bit less morbid then
. Also they way they did it tied the entire series togethor as well. I mean really does anyone want to play a metal gear solid game after this one ?
the only way snake can rest is to kill himself off
Choke on the Magic
Banned
Pachinko said:
I would, but just drop the solid. Snake's retired for good now. I'm ready for the next chapter in the franchise.
Choke on the Magic
Banned
Orlics said:
No. Wth is it?
Farnack said:
You know, I really hate this line of thinking. It's unnecessary, ungrounded in actual evidence, and stupid. It is possible for people to hate MGS4's plot. I personally don't, because I'm not that huge a fan of the universe (I like it, but I don't comb interviews and bonus DVDs to keep all the facts in check), so I enjoyed the game for what it is. But there are people who do, and don't try to deny that.
Choke on the Magic said:
have a blast
dark steve
Banned
Pachinko said:
Hahaha, are you kidding? This is a grain in the sand compared to the coastline of praise it's getting.
(I have faint hopes it will snowball, though)
fistfulofmetal
Banned
James Power said:
Big Boss (the best character in the series) telling his son to live whatever life he has left as a man and not a soldier holds much more weight than Snake killing himself then having another long cutscene after that.
Barakov
Member
I thought it would've been great if Kojima gave us the choice to whether or not to kill Snake.Basically similar to the scene with The Boss at the end of MGS 3. You'd have the same kind of scene but with Snake holding the gun in his mouth and you choose whether to kill him(press the R1 button) or make him pull the gun out of his mouth at the last second(move the left analog stick). I'm still of the mind that I'm glad that Snake didn't commit suicide. Although, I do agree that Kojima did a bit more exposition than what was necessary. As much as I love what he does, and like others have said, he does need a editor.:lol
Choke on the Magic
Banned
Orlics said:
Oh shit. Thanks, but no thanks. GAF is enough for me. People can keep their opinions. I'm going to get the Big Boss emblem. Everyone else have fun whining.:lol
Orlics said:
Yeah well hardcore fans of ANY game hate the end product, regardless.
I remember the backlash on Half life 2 (days after release) was intense at half-life2.net, and almost everyone on GAF treats that game as the second coming. I myself didn't like it as much, even given my valve fanboyism in those days, and took part in the backlash.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
The rolling credits end with a gunshot. We're back in the graveyard, snake kneeling by the grave his gun held to the heavens "The last snake died here today, time to stop fighting and live my life." A hand's extended to our hero, he grasps it and is pulled into the warm embrace of Otacon. Their lips part and a giggle emerges from the romantic kiss "Oh Snake, I never had this problem with my mom" The two men chuckle whilst they walk off into the sunset holding hands.
Neither cliché or overwrought, it could even end with a codec scene where Raiden arranges his date with Big Boss for next Thursday.
Neither cliché or overwrought, it could even end with a codec scene where Raiden arranges his date with Big Boss for next Thursday.
eso76
Member
hm...
making big boss come back from his second death was stupid.
making him come back only to give his speech and then die again afterwards was even worse.
i liked the whole closure theme, but big boss was an already closed chapter in the series' timeline. Did the game really need to bring him back so that he could die in sync with the others ?
it wasn't poorly written in itself but the whole idea couldnt' work.
but before that, it was liquid's speech that fucked with kojima's own plot points
it was johnny and meryl's marriage
it was raiden, and his being able to go back from being a cybermonster to the handsome guy he used to be, that took all the drama away from any cyborg character.
and yet...i liked parts of the ending a lot
making big boss come back from his second death was stupid.
making him come back only to give his speech and then die again afterwards was even worse.
i liked the whole closure theme, but big boss was an already closed chapter in the series' timeline. Did the game really need to bring him back so that he could die in sync with the others ?
it wasn't poorly written in itself but the whole idea couldnt' work.
but before that, it was liquid's speech that fucked with kojima's own plot points
it was johnny and meryl's marriage
it was raiden, and his being able to go back from being a cybermonster to the handsome guy he used to be, that took all the drama away from any cyborg character.
and yet...i liked parts of the ending a lot
Farnack said:
Stop strawmanning your opposition and acting like there's no way anyone could dislike the story.
I bought a PS3 for Metal Gear Solid 4, and I genuinely like it. But the way the story is delivered really rubs me the wrong way, and it's gotten me to spend time thinking about what it does wrong.
Metal Gear Solid games always tend to end with someone giving a long monologue which sums up the meaning of the whole game. It ties together the primary plots or subplots of the game into a coherent theme. It's a pretty weak way to do that sort of thing, but at least it makes sense.
Big Boss's appearance at the end of Metal Gear Solid 4 fails to do that. The game is all over the place in terms of what it's trying to address, and while his monologue ties the events of the series together, it does nothing with the actual product, which has plenty of interesting ideas of its own. So much time is spent on exposition of past events outside the game's plot, and introducing new ideas that fail to tie in at all to the events of the game, that it does nothing but meander.
Metal Gear Solid 3 did a much better job, explaining what happened without having to bring in new characters, or throw in bizarre new thematic ideas, or spend tons of time on exposition. It summarized and packaged the primary tale of the game, and gave new revelations forcing us to reconsider the plot we had progressed through thus far. Metal Gear Solid 4's ending meanders through the backgrounds of dozens of characters, and while some revelations redeem them, they don't tie in to what the game is trying to say. They're pointless fluff, fodder for fans who want everything tied up neatly with a bow as opposed to people who don't have their lives invested in the game's fiction and who were hoping for a game that was deep, focused, and well-communicated. Even 2, for all its excesses, did a better job.
James Power
Banned
fistfulofmetal said:
"That body of mine the whole third act revolved around? Guess what?
It was just a clone of mine! Hahaha! :lol"Yeah, well, as I said, cheapens the rest.
Solid Snake and Big Boss basically ARE the series. To have them have that final interaction seems a fitting way to end it to me.
And after so, so many of the characters etc die in battle and for various causes etc, Snake, a man created purely for war, designed to never lead a real life finally overcomes, outlasts and brings to a close the events that consumed his entire life, finally has a chance to actually try and enjoy his final days. The contrast between Big Boss, Eva, Ocelot etc all being wrapped up in the formation of the Patriots and all that they went through and brought upon themselves and eventually dying for it and then Snake, who was a part of it through no choice of his own, under quite sad circumstances gets to walk away from it all.
It may seem a cop out to some, but it seems a lot more powerful and infinitely more satisfying to me. Seeing Snake before and after we hear the gunshot was really powerful to me too.
Overall, I think Snake is an amazing character and the ending of MGS4 strengthens the idea for me.
Perhaps the actual series itself could have had a better ending, but it was a brilliant ending for the story of Snake, as somebody else said.
If we get a MGS5, I think the ending would bother you a lot less because then you would perhaps see it as the ending to the story of Snake, rather than the entire series of Metal Gear games.
And after so, so many of the characters etc die in battle and for various causes etc, Snake, a man created purely for war, designed to never lead a real life finally overcomes, outlasts and brings to a close the events that consumed his entire life, finally has a chance to actually try and enjoy his final days. The contrast between Big Boss, Eva, Ocelot etc all being wrapped up in the formation of the Patriots and all that they went through and brought upon themselves and eventually dying for it and then Snake, who was a part of it through no choice of his own, under quite sad circumstances gets to walk away from it all.
It may seem a cop out to some, but it seems a lot more powerful and infinitely more satisfying to me. Seeing Snake before and after we hear the gunshot was really powerful to me too.
Overall, I think Snake is an amazing character and the ending of MGS4 strengthens the idea for me.
Perhaps the actual series itself could have had a better ending, but it was a brilliant ending for the story of Snake, as somebody else said.
If we get a MGS5, I think the ending would bother you a lot less because then you would perhaps see it as the ending to the story of Snake, rather than the entire series of Metal Gear games.
Steiner_Zi
Member
What are these ideas that "fail" to tie in the game's plot?sonicmj1 said:
Clone or not, the point is that Liquid Ocelot managed to access the System. So it cheapens nothing at all."That body of mine the whole third act revolved around? Guess what?
Yeah, well, as I said, cheapens the rest.
Yes the ending sucked. That wasn't the BB I knew and saved the world with and no I fucking didn't want to see Zeros last groans.
In the end of previous games I was always left mentally high and sad and happy at the same time. In the end of MGS4 I was just pissed off. The monologue was probably the only part in the saga I felt bored watching. Kojima you really shouldn't have tied ALL the fucking strings together. It's a clusterfuck in the end.
Here's to you sucked too by the way :/
In the end of previous games I was always left mentally high and sad and happy at the same time. In the end of MGS4 I was just pissed off. The monologue was probably the only part in the saga I felt bored watching. Kojima you really shouldn't have tied ALL the fucking strings together. It's a clusterfuck in the end.
Here's to you sucked too by the way :/
Wait, so the new foxdie is stopping the old, mutated foxdie, but will mutate itself (after 9 years? just like the old foxdie?), but Snake is dying anyway from rapid aging, and has only a year left? So that changes very little, right?
I don't understand why Zero had to be dragged out and killed. The guy is practically a vegetable anyway.
And yeah, Otacon's "He had a hard life" really got to me.
I don't understand why Zero had to be dragged out and killed. The guy is practically a vegetable anyway.
And yeah, Otacon's "He had a hard life" really got to me.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Could someone explain to me Ocelot's motives were in Metal Gear Solid 1 and 2? At that point he was still working for the Patriots but he was also working with Eva to get Big Boss back. Did he just use Liquid and Soldius?
Also, what was Vamp's motive?
Also, what was Vamp's motive?
fistfulofmetal
Banned
zoukka said:
The BB you "knew and saved the world with" wasn't that BB since (chronologically) the end of Portable Ops. Why would you think he would be?
The bigger the game, the bigger the back lash. Halo 3, GTA IV, now MGS4. There's a huge number of people that like all these games, but a good number that don't as well. You can't please everyone no matter how hard you try. I would say kojima has succeeded though. Tons of people enjoyed the game and continue to enjoy it (either through replays or online).
All that time spent on things 'going back to zero' is probably the main thing. I can see how the stuff about liberty ties into the whole control theme that is central to the game, even if it's a bit loose. Somehow, because Snake fought against both control and anarchy, he is the true inheritor of The Boss's legacy, and he gets to break the cycle of a soldier's life, something even The Boss couldn't do. I can see how it works, but a lot of that seems to stem more from a desire to connect the whole series than from a coherent thread within the game.Steiner_Zi said:
The more I think about it, the more I can see how some of it makes sense. The real issue is how wonky the presentation is. They have to rewrite the entire story to that point to have it all work out, and Big Boss has to explain everything. As a result, it takes him 15 minutes to die of a heart attack. Until his death, he explains everything about the Patriots, about the split factions within their ranks, about Ocelot, about the Boss, about FOXDIE... there's a ton of exposition tacked onto an already dense narrative. It's as bad as the crap that takes place at the end of MGS2 on top of Arsenal Gear and at Federal Hall.
Also, the fact that the body in act 3 isn't BB doesn't cheapen their failure, but it does cheapen the corpse burning.
overthehill99
Member
Was anyone bothered by the Big Boss semi-suicide?
timetokill
Banned
Yeah, to be clear, I enjoyed the game, but I thought the ending sucked. I'll still play it again and enjoy it.
Kojima is good at inventive gameplay and directing jaw-dropping cinematics, but sucks at dialog and story. I think what bothered me the most about MGS4 wasn't the ending, but rather small details such as Sunny being a genius, or the silly monkey Drebin drags around. It's kinda like how Otacon's step-sister just happened to be the best virus writer in the world in MGS2.
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