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[zoukka]

The BB you "knew and saved the world with" wasn't that BB since (chronologically) the end of Portable Ops. Why would you think he would be?

Yeah I know, but he had no remnants of those times in SE and PO. He was like a completely different character. In all honesty he was pretty pathetic old man instead of being the "ultimate soldier".

I wouldn't really call this backlash, hating the ending dose not mean the whole game sucks

Well hate anything and you're not worthy of the series, in many peoples eyes. But infact those people are the lesser fans imo.

 

[dark steve]

No idea.

Maybe they were use to getting "Congratulations!" and the credits. :lol

I'd also like to note that this "ha ha, you're so wrong and silly" way of posting is cute, in the sense that it's endearingly childish and can't be treated like it's coming from someone who should be taken seriously.

I've noticed it a lot in people defending Metal Gear Solid 4 from any critics that arise, but I suppose that's because it's the most recent big game. I'm sure I'd find a lot of it among GTA4 fans.

 

[Doubledex]

a good ending. And it was nice to see Big Boss and Zero.
If you have a problem with the game (this is the game. Kojima did it so) don't play it.
It ended good.
END

 

[Prince of Space]

As bad as Big Boss Explains It All was, it can't hold a candle to the sheer bullshit that was Johnny and Meryl. Seriously, Meryl deserved better than that.

 

[psycho_snake]

It's like me posting using someone elses account!

The ending was perfect.

"He had a hard life" made me chock :_;

That bit made me choke too.

But the ending wasnt perfect. Seeing Big Boss didnt feel right at all. It felt as though Kojima added something completely unnecceary. They explained how he's there, but it didnt seem like a very convincing explanation to me. I dunno, something about seeing big boss again just doesnt seem right.

Now as I was watching the ending, I was glad that snake didnt kill himself, but looking back on it now I think he should have done so. The best ending would have been snake going to the graveyard, putting the gun in his mouth and then letting the player pull the trigger. The next scene should be the conversation between sunny and otacaon, which is when Otcaon will say "snake had a hard life" and then the game ends. It would have definately been a more emotional ending.

 

[Mamesj]

I'd also like to note that this "ha ha, you're so wrong and silly" way of posting is cute, in the sense that it's endearingly childish and can't be treated like it's coming from someone who should be taken seriously.

I've noticed it a lot in people defending Metal Gear Solid 4 from any critics that arise, but I suppose that's because it's the most recent big game. I'm sure I'd find a lot of it among GTA4 fans.

GTA4 backlash was very real and pretty quick, thank to "oscar worthy" reviews.

The MGS4 story (and well, whole MGS series' story) will be debated till the end of time. Some people will always think its the most brilliant thing in the world, other people will have good taste.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

I liked the ending, it brought back Big Boss from Metal Gear 3 and we saw him and Snake finally interact (cause really, MSX games dont count) Plus, it finally gives Snake a break, which was well due

 

[MGrant]

Whether you like the story of the MGS series or not (and I don't), you have to give credit to Kojima for knowing his audience. The people who loved the story of the first three games seem to, for the most part, love the fourth. The rest of us? We get to blow things up really fancy, and at the end of the day, that's not too bad.

 

[Damodar]

GTA4 backlash was very real and pretty quick, thank to "oscar worthy" reviews.

The MGS4 story (and well, whole MGS series' story) will be debated till the end of time. Some people will always think its the most brilliant thing in the world, other people will have good taste.

That's mature.

 

[Mamesj]

That bit made me choke too.

But the ending wasnt perfect. Seeing Big Boss didnt feel right at all. It felt as though Kojima added something completely unnecceary. They explained how he's there, but it didnt seem like a very convincing explanation to me. I dunno, something about seeing big boss again just doesnt seem right.

Now as I was watching the ending, I was glad that snake didnt kill himself, but looking back on it now I think he should have done so. The best ending would have been snake going to the graveyard, putting the gun in his mouth and then letting the player pull the trigger. The next scene should be the conversation between sunny and otacaon, which is when Otcaon will say "snake had a hard life" and then the game ends. It would have definately been a more emotional ending.

Totally fucking agree! I didn't like much of MGS4's story, but that ending you wrote out would've been powerful enough to make me feel like the entire series ended "correctly." I almost think it says something about the immaturity of the game industry when all the hype is generated around Snake having a gun in his mouth, along with talk about how "some legends die," but then tossing this Big Boss curveball, and Snake dying naturally while hanging out with Otacon.

Killing himself would be more realistic after this whole thing...the guy only knows war. He wouldn't be comfortable going to the bahamas with Otacon and recording his memoirs or whatever.

That's mature.

oh well, guess you'll just have to take it.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Spoiler

Ocelot used Liquid to try to incite war against the Patriots control. Did the same for Solidus. Database said he brought Ray to Solidus. I guess his Liquid persona took control when Solidus plans weren't working.

What confuses me is that if he was trying to bring them down in the original, why would he still be working for them in the second game? Also, I thought he was "FAKING" it at the end of MGS2 and that only later did Liquid really take control, but by MGS4 he was "faking" again?

 

[EekTheKat]

Yeah I know, but he had no remnants of those times in SE and PO. He was like a completely different character. In all honesty he was pretty pathetic old man instead of being the "ultimate soldier".

That "pathetic" old man still managed to completely dismantle Solid Snake in hand to hand combat in the last sequence of the game. If Big Boss's intentions were different Snake's ending would've been pretty somber compared to the "second chance" he received.

Here's something else you might have missed : the importance and significance of behind a "soldier's" reason to fight. Think about what was said about the PMC's and their reasons for fighting and compare that to why the Boss, Big Boss, fought.

 

[zoukka]

Whether you like the story of the MGS series or not (and I don't), you have to give credit to Kojima for knowing his audience. The people who loved the story of the first three games seem to, for the most part, love the fourth. The rest of us? We get to blow things up really fancy, and at the end of the day, that's not too bad.

I'm the biggest MGS fanboy out there when it comes to parts 1-3, but I can still see the flaws of this one? Now how can that be...

Here's something else you might have missed : the importance and significance of behind a "soldier's" reason to fight. Think about what was said about the PMC's and their reasons for fighting and compare that to why the Boss, Big Boss, fought.

It was pretty fucking hard to miss anything he had to say don't ya think?

 

[psycho_snake]

Kojima is good at inventive gameplay and directing jaw-dropping cinematics, but sucks at dialog and story. I think what bothered me the most about MGS4 wasn't the ending, but rather small details such as Sunny being a genius, or the silly monkey Drebin drags around. It's kinda like how Otacon's step-sister just happened to be the best virus writer in the world in MGS2.

I'm the opposite way round. I thought sunny was a great character and I loved drebins monkey, but I wasnt too happy with the ending.

I dont think kojima sucks at story and dialog either. MGS3 was absolutely brilliant story wise. It was kept simple and to the point, but it was the best MGS story and it had the best ending to any game I've played. MGS4 didnt live upto that unfortunately.

 

[zoukka]

I'm the opposite way round. I thought sunny was a great character and I loved drebins monkey, but I wasnt too happy with the ending.

I dont think kojima sucks at story and dialog either. MGS3 was absolutely brilliant story wise. It was kept simple and to the point, but it was the best MGS story and it had the best ending to any game I've played. MGS4 didnt live upto that unfortunately.

My words excatly. Snake Eater really proved the guys worth and even though MGS4 didn't live up to it, doesn't mean he's a bad writer or anything. The saga was undoublty a bitch to end and I think I could give Kojima some slack too.

Just wishing he'd let some things in peace and not explaining literally everything.

 

[psycho_snake]

Totally fucking agree! I didn't like much of MGS4's story, but that ending you wrote out would've been powerful enough to make me feel like the entire series ended "correctly." I almost think it says something about the immaturity of the game industry when all the hype is generated around Snake having a gun in his mouth, along with talk about how "some legends die," but then tossing this Big Boss curveball, and Snake dying naturally while hanging out with Otacon.

Killing himself would be more realistic after this whole thing...the guy only knows war. He wouldn't be comfortable going to the bahamas with Otacon and recording his memoirs or whatever.

Yep. The suicide ending was perfect. Before Big Boss showed up, snake had ended defeated the patriots, foxdie was in him and as naomi said, he was about to become a walking doomsday device. He was an old man with nothing left to live for. Killing himself made sense. He'd be doing it to protect the innocent people and thats something he's been fighting for his whole life. It was a suicide with a good reason. Now just imagine snake sitting with a gun in his mouth and the player had to pull the trigger....

 

[psycho_snake]

My words excatly. Snake Eater really proved the guys worth and even though MGS4 didn't live up to it, doesn't mean he's a bad writer or anything. The saga was undoublty a bitch to end and I think I could give Kojima some slack too.

Just wishing he'd let some things in peace and not explaining literally everything.

I think he explained most things pretty well, but I just dont think there was any need for big boss to come back and give that whole speech about taking everything back to zero.

 

[Helzown]

Personally, I just think Kojima shouldn't have shown Snake with the gun in his mouth before the game was released. If he hadn't, I would've been surprised had he decided to make Snake end it all. But he gave us all these preconceived notions about what was gonna happen, even though in reality we still had no idea. The way he set it up allowed for very little room to surprise;

Snake kills himself and we all think, "So he basically told us the ending before the game even came out."

Snake doesn't kill himself and we all think, "So Kojima pussied out."

With that being said, I actually loved the ending. It just didn't hold the same sort of impact as the other game endings, so I can see why people didn't enjoy it. To me, though... I just figure that the other games needed to have an ending to compel us into looking forward to the next game. Metal Gear Solid 4's ending was meant to give closure, and for me it did.


And I'd be fine with another installment in the series, as long as Snake's not back.

 

[Farnack]

Yep. The suicide ending was perfect.

No it's not. You don't shit on the fans by killing off Solid Snake.

Kojima knows what he's doing.

 

[The Bookerman]

I loved the ending cause I thought it brought closure to both characters. The only problem I have is that the real Antagonist has no real story. How his plan to unify the world as The boss saw it turned sour. We've only seen Zero for one full game, and he became the MAIN antagonist of the series by game 4. So Kojima tied everything together but left plenty of stuff to be explored, so I guess we ain't done with Big Boss or Raiden, the two possible heroes of MGS 5.


Also, I've said plenty of times in the MGS4 thread, Meryl's relationship to Johnny, and Meryl's relationship to Snake... I didn't like how Kojima handled it, but that's just me. Some say Meryl falls in love with johnny cause he looks like Snake.... Meh, i haven't seen comparisons yet. I understand Kojima wanted every character to finish up Happy, but It doesn't feel right for me.

 

[psycho_snake]

No it's not. You don't shit on the fans by killing off Solid Snake.

Kojima knows what he's doing.

He's going to die anyway. You might as well make him go out with a bang.

 

[zoukka]

No it's not. You don't shit on the fans by killing off Solid Snake.

Yeah and sending Snake to rot away somewhere and implying he's gonna have to live like a beast for the rest of his days was somehow better?

Naaah...

Kojima knows what he's doing.

Yeah it's a good thing to leave the door open for sequels yes.

 

[The Faceless Master]

i wasn't surprised that the ending was boring, full of plotholes and a copout since after the great act 1 and excellent act 2, the game jumped off a cliff.

i can just replay act 1 and act 2 over and over and pretend the rest of the game is that good.

 

[sechsterangriff]

When the first credits started to roll, I felt unsatisfied from the end, simply because nothing totally unexpected had happened until that point. Ironically, I felt the EXACT same thing when Naked Snake was banging Eva in MGS3, only to be blown away minutes later.

The scene with Big Boss serves as
a) the big plot twist of the game and of everything that had happened until this point,
b) further explaining the motives of the Patriots and the people who founded the organisation,
c) the death of Zero -the man who started it all- and
d) the final peacemaking between the two protagonists of the series, Big Boss and Snake, father and son, and between Big Boss and his dead mentor, the Boss; giving each character the peace he deserves.
If the game ended with the cliche "happy end when the main hero dies" would be a massive dissappointment for me. This is the easiest way to evoke emotion but it has been used so many times in films and anime nowadays that I've grown to dislike it. The way Kojima ended the game, Snake finally escapes from being a prisoner of fate (both from the Patriots and the Foxdie), receives recognition from his father and achieves peace until he dies.

Essentially, the final scene not only does not downgrade everything that happened in the MGS series, but on the contrary serves as the catharsis of the story.

Couldn't put it better.

He's going to die anyway. You might as well make him go out with a bang.

Snake suffered so much during his life. He is a legend. He deserved his peace no matter how short it is. No MGS fan would want a bullet in his head.

 

[Miburou]

Speaking of suicide, why should Snake kill himself anyway?

As for sunny, I thought she was a good character, but I dislike movies and games with cliched "only person who can hack into the system is a some kid".

Oh, and great realistic touch having Meryl all buffed up. I dislike it when a female soldier has the body of a supermodel.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

You go to hell, you go to hell and you die.

The ending was AMAZING, simple, it was the most perfect ending there could have been, i cant think of a more fitting end to the series then what happened, so yeah GTFO.

 

[revolverjgw]

Snake suffered so much during his life. He is a legend. He deserved his peace no matter how short it is. No MGS fan would want a bullet in his head.

Agreed. I just wish they granted him this a bit more gracefully.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Speaking of suicide, why should Snake kill himself anyway?

As for sunny, I thought she was a good character, but I dislike movies and games with cliched "only person who can hack into the system is a some kid".

Oh, and great realistic touch having Meryl all buffed up. I dislike it when a female soldier has the body of a supermodel.

They explain why towards the middle/end of the game. The Boss Extreme is a mother fucker.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

As for sunny, I thought she was a good character, but I dislike movies and games with cliched "only person who can hack into the system is a some kid".

Hal could hack as well though, Sunny was just better, like Ed from Bebop but less annoying.

 

[Steiner_Zi]

All that time spent on things 'going back to zero' is probably the main thing. I can see how the stuff about liberty ties into the whole control theme that is central to the game, even if it's a bit loose. Somehow, because Snake fought against both control and anarchy, he is the true inheritor of The Boss's legacy, and he gets to break the cycle of a soldier's life, something even The Boss couldn't do. I can see how it works, but a lot of that seems to stem more from a desire to connect the whole series than from a coherent thread within the game.

The more I think about it, the more I can see how some of it makes sense. The real issue is how wonky the presentation is. They have to rewrite the entire story to that point to have it all work out, and Big Boss has to explain everything. As a result, it takes him 15 minutes to die of a heart attack. Until his death, he explains everything about the Patriots, about the split factions within their ranks, about Ocelot, about the Boss, about FOXDIE... there's a ton of exposition tacked onto an already dense narrative. It's as bad as the crap that takes place at the end of MGS2 on top of Arsenal Gear and at Federal Hall.

Also, the fact that the body in act 3 isn't BB doesn't cheapen their failure, but it does cheapen the corpse burning.

You said it yourself. That's a whole different matter than "new ideas that fail to tie in with the game". I don't see where the word "crap" fits the ending, just because... it's long and has tons of key plot points. Isn't that why it exists in the first place? Isn't that why we also see Big Boss? I loved the fact at the utter last moment everything turns upside down. I wouldn't describe the end of MGS2 as crap, either.

Also, about FoxDie and how long it takes Big Boss to die, I don't see where the issue is. It took just as much for Ocelot to die in the final battle and even in MGS1 Liquid dies long after 15 minutes.

 

[zoukka]

You go to hell, you go to hell and you die.

The ending was AMAZING, simple, it was the most perfect ending there could have been, i cant think of a more fitting end to the series then what happened, so yeah GTFO.

Well for starters make the ending about Solid Snake.

Also, about FoxDie and how long it takes Big Boss to die, I don't see where the issue is. It took just as much Ocelot to die in the final battle and even in MGS1 Liquid dies long after 15 minutes.

Lol when they "feel it" they kick the bucket that instant.

BB lasted because his rant lasted.

 

[Orlics]

I think discussion is good but it gets out of hand when people say "true MGS fans should think this: ____"

There's no way being a fan requires you to love something unconditionally. That's not a fan, that's a fanboy.

 

[WrikaWrek]

The ending was a clusterfuck.

Big Boss showing up, Snake acting like a pussy and not killing himself(Heroes don't retire son, fuck that shit), talk about Ocelot hypnotizing himself to become Liquid Snake (Fucking retarded), Big Boss showing up just to be like "am dead".

It was just a big pile of stupid that ending.

 

[Steiner_Zi]

I think discussion is good but it gets out of hand when people say "true MGS fans should think this: ____"

This actually works both ways.

Lol when they "feel it" they kick the bucket that instant.

BB lasted because his rant lasted.

Oh, come on, is this the first time you see someone about to die speak longer than he should have? It always happens in the movies. You may also have something to say about Snake's ass and if it's a plot hole that it is that tight.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Well for starters make the ending about Solid Snake.



Lol when they "feel it" they kick the bucket that instant.

BB lasted because his rant lasted.

The whole series has never been about JUST Snake, none of the games have been, Snakes a catalyst for story telling, when he is around you find out the story of every other character in the game. It would be wrong to just meh all the characters who played a roll in the games at the end just so we can see what happens to Snake and seeing as its the supposed end of the series, well for Kojima anyways he wanted to have a resolution for each of the characters and thats the way it should be.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

This is good... Isn't it?



Amazing way to finish such an amazing game with heartbreaking last words

 

[dark steve]

This is good... Isn't it?



Amazing way to finish such an amazing game with heartbreaking last words

That's one way to look at it.

Another way to see it as a question to which some feel the answer is "yeah, no".

 

[MrDaravon]

What actually happened I had no problem with, and quite frankly if you've been playing the games up to this point and the batshit insanity that has ensued I'm not sure why the ending of all things you decide to have a problem with. My problem was that was the longest motherfucking death scene ever. I honestly just wanted him to die, but he just kept talking and talking, then he'd fall over and you'd think it was done, then he'd get up again. They should have at least had him blow his load THEN go into the death sequence at the very end, not drag it out forever.

 

[Solo]

No it's not. You don't shit on the fans by killing off Solid Snake.

Kojima knows what he's doing.

More like "you dont kill off Solid Snake because you'll need him for MGS5".

The suicide ending would have been ballsy and perfect.

 

[Miburou]

They explain why towards the middle/end of the game. The Boss Extreme is a mother fucker.

If you mean FOXDIE, then Snake will die of accelerated aging well before the new FOXDIE has had a chance to mutate and turn Snake into a WMD.

BTW, where's Solidsnakex? I remember the days when it seemed like it was only me and him defending MGS2 on these boards. :lol

 

[rainer516]

I think the real problem here was Big Boss' voice not being David Hayter, so you don't recognize him as the Naked Snake. But Naked Snake's eventual final final THIS TIME THIS IS IT GUYS death needs a long exposition and tons of talking. I played as him in MGS3, I want him to have a long monologue, simple as that.

The ending was perfect because it told us about The Patriots' how they were born out of righteous ambition from the cool simple minded folks from MGS3 and they became these crazy power hungry folks hellbent on promoting their sense and agenda.

This is why MGS4's storyline is awesome, and Ocelot being a liar is not surprising either because, simply well, he's the Boss' son after all. And he died the same way as her, albeit a lot more convoluted.

 

[WrikaWrek]

What actually happened I had no problem with, and quite frankly if you've been playing the games up to this point and the batshit insanity that has ensued I'm not sure why the ending of all things you decide to have a problem with.

So that means that it could've been anything, and anything would've been perfect, because the series has always been batshit insane.

 

[BigBoss]

BTW, where's Solidsnakex?

He was banned before MGS4 was released.

 

[Blame!]

What confuses me is that if he was trying to bring them down in the original, why would he still be working for them in the second game? Also, I thought he was "FAKING" it at the end of MGS2 and that only later did Liquid really take control, but by MGS4 he was "faking" again?

at this point the fanboys can justify the inconsistencies however they want to and, just liike every fanboy discussion, nobody will be right or wrong. lets face it, the whole liquid ocelot character mix disaster was just a fucking clumsy way to try and bring back a very cool villain in MGS2 and we the fans have had to pay for it ever since.

"oh shit we uhhh killed liquid snake in MGS1... uhhh...." and the rest is history.

you just can't polish a turd, bros. :lol

 

[drohne]

some of the information big boss imparts really makes a hash of the plot, but snake shooting himself would've been an abysmal, bathetic, disastrous ending. the protagonist dying a senselessly violent and squalid death, bookended by much longer scenes of less important characters having their happy reunions. come on. mgs4's ending is largely nonsense in terms of plot, but that ending would be cinematic nonsense. which is much worse.

 

[Eccocid]

it was ULTRA DRAGGED and LAME!

to be honest;
Kojima sux at story telling, his skills are not better than a 3rd rate Hong Kong movie.People still praise him about his story telling but man he can't even keep a mood in overall.Those lame scenes which supposed to be funny were so out of place, i canT put MGS4 story in any genre, is it dramatic, silly, serious about giving a message? He keeps ruining everything.

Sorry but he is like what George Lucas is with new Star Wars movies.

 

[Bizzyb]

When the first credits started to roll, I felt unsatisfied from the end, simply because nothing totally unexpected had happened until that point. Ironically, I felt the EXACT same thing when Naked Snake was banging Eva in MGS3, only to be blown away minutes later.

The scene with Big Boss serves as
a) the big plot twist of the game and of everything that had happened until this point,
b) further explaining the motives of the Patriots and the people who founded the organisation,
c) the death of Zero -the man who started it all- and
d) the final peacemaking between the two protagonists of the series, Big Boss and Snake, father and son, and between Big Boss and his dead mentor, the Boss; giving each
character the peace he deserves.
If the game ended with the cliche "happy end when the main hero dies" would be a massive dissappointment for me. This is the easiest way to evoke emotion but it has been used so many times in films and anime nowadays that I've grown to dislike it. The way Kojima ended the game, Snake finally escapes from being a prisoner of fate (both from the Patriots and the Foxdie), receives recognition from his father and achieves peace until he dies.

Essentially, the final scene not only does not downgrade everything that happened in the MGS series, but on the contrary serves as the catharsis of the story.

I agree with this 100%

It gave some very much needed closure to the character of Solid Snake, and even Big Boss, esp after playing Snake Eater. I'm glad to know that Snake does not take the cowards way out (yet is still on the brink of death). As it leads to a very open ended, self interpretation of what Snake will do with the rest of his "free" life.

 

[MrDaravon]

So that means that it could've been anything, and anything would've been perfect, because the series has always been batshit insane.

No not at all. What I'm saying is that I find it odd and funny that after going through everything in all the previous games, and up to that point in MGS4, the final ending is where people draw a line and decide it's ridiculous and/or stupid.

 

[soldat7]

it was ULTRA DRAGGED and LAME!

to be honest;
Kojima sux at story telling, his skills are not better than a 3rd rate Hong Kong movie.People still praise him about his story telling but man he can't even keep a mood in overall.Those lame scenes which supposed to be funny were so out of place, i canT put MGS4 story in any genre, is it dramatic, silly, serious about giving a message? He keeps ruining everything.

Sorry but he is like what George Lucas is with new Star Wars movies.

 

[WrikaWrek]

No not at all. What I'm saying is that I find it odd and funny that after going through everything in all the previous games, and up to that point in MGS4, the final ending is where people draw a line and decide it's ridiculous and/or stupid.

Uh, of course. Somethings, when they don't make sense at the time, they get a pass simply because either the player assumes the story is just garbage anyway so why bother, or the player simply thinks that those things will end up making sense further down the line.

That's why there's some people who just completely wrote off MGS story (people you see making fun of the story, all these years), and some people who believe things will be tied up.

MGS4 is where fans wanted their questions to be answered, and they were. Just so happens, some of the answers are just retarded.

On one hand the character of Vamp was really well handled, he's not supernatural, it's the nanomachines. It made sense according to the rules of the MGS world that Kojima created. And then on the other end you have the laughably stupid explanation of the questions that existed in regards to the Liquid Ocelot character.

And when an explanation is retarded it sucks. Sure, MGS has wild shit happening, like in MGS4 when you see Raiden with one Arm stopping a Small Town of a Boat that was destroying the floor, and you look at it and think, but if the boat was destroying the floor wouldn't raiden just be pushed forward? However, these anime dbz like moments, are one thing, another thing is the actual plot points.

The mere presence of Big Boss in perfect health at the end is retarded. Just like the Raiden situation, we reach the comic book situation, and DBZ situation where nothing can happen to the characters because they can always be "fixed" somehow. And in a world where this happens, how can something like Fox Die not have a cure?

It's retarded, and the best thing i can do is just not think too much about it and look at it like i always looked, it's Ninja Scrool. All the stupid shit doesn't really matter, what's really cool is all the characters, and the fights, and the set pieces. The rest doesn't matter.