GreyOcelot
Member
Yeup, you can basically ignore your health and just keep the rations equipped in the previous games
MGSV: The Phantom Pain - New information revealed
- Thread starter Sn4ke_911
- Start date
Yeup, you can basically ignore your health and just keep the rations equipped in the previous games
These are all valid criticisms, but I'd imagine TPP will have more options in terms of adjusting the difficulty to your liking. Reflex mode could already be turned off in GZ,and Snake will probably be quite fragile on Extreme/European Extreme, making stealth mandatory.
I'm sorry but in MGS3 you can just run and CQC-throw everyone, in MGS2 you can just hs everybody with the tranq gun, MGS4 you have every help enabled and can blast through everyone with unlimited firepower. Peace Walker is kinda hard until you get the Sneaking Suit then it's just run and hold'em up.
And as you said "to me", I'll take it as an opinion based on your premises, but I don't think you can say that GZ is inferior to the other MGS titles
matrix-cat
Member
You didn't just have all the Rations you liked, though. Same with ammo. Sure they weren't exactly scarce, at least on Normal difficulty, but they were still finite consumables that you knew you were consciously wasting every time you got into conflict. Throwing away Rations and ammo willy-nilly meant having to go off the beaten path to find more, because who knows when a bossfight might pop up? Enemies only drop items for you when you hold them up or search/shake their dead/unconscious bodies, neither of which is really possible in open combat. Essentially, you're always going to come out of a combat scenario in a worse position than you were when you started.
Ground Zeroes is much more skewed to the shooter mentality. You have an essentially infinite supply of health (regen) and ammo (enemies drop it when they die). There's zero long-term penalty to being spotted. All of which serves to make the stealth gameplay less meaningful. Why bother?
What happens when you run and CQC everyone? If you've played the game enough to know the route through every area and where all the enemies are you might get through unscathed, otherwise they get up again, trigger an Alert phase, shoot you a bunch, force you to waste a bunch of items and ammo, spend time in the Cure menu, eat some snakes, maybe lie down for a couple of minutes to regain some health. Tranqing guards in MGS2 works just fine, as long as you actually spot all the guards and don't miss your shots, because when you do you get shot a bunch and have to waste rations and end up bleeding all over the place. The Alert phase deprives you of your Soliton Radar, and the weapons and shooting controls aren't really good enough for you to easily deal with a lot of backup.
I agree that 4 was already going down the shooter route, with its millions of guns and unlimited ammo from Drebin's store, but you still had to deal with finite rations and the bizarre Psyche Gauge mechanics. I don't really have an argument for PW, since the gameplay is just so barebones and I really didn't like that game at all. Point is, even if they vary in quality of stealth mechanics, those games are all actual stealth games, and they all use several methods of making stealth gameplay much more viable than open combat. GZ doesn't. You get your magic 'I win' mechanic with Reflex Mode, or you turn it off and hope for the best. With no equivalent mechanics to the camo index, threat ring, or vision cones and footstep loudness on the Soliton Radar, you've got no real way to quantify exactly how stealthy you're being. You never quite know whether an enemy can see you until they've already seen you, and it can all be over in a fraction of a second with the instant Alert phase, at which point you whip out your assault rifle and play Gears of War. I absolutely think GZ is inferior to the older MGSes in terms of stealth mechanics.
Ground Zeroes is much more skewed to the shooter mentality. You have an essentially infinite supply of health (regen) and ammo (enemies drop it when they die). There's zero long-term penalty to being spotted. All of which serves to make the stealth gameplay less meaningful. Why bother?
What happens when you run and CQC everyone? If you've played the game enough to know the route through every area and where all the enemies are you might get through unscathed, otherwise they get up again, trigger an Alert phase, shoot you a bunch, force you to waste a bunch of items and ammo, spend time in the Cure menu, eat some snakes, maybe lie down for a couple of minutes to regain some health. Tranqing guards in MGS2 works just fine, as long as you actually spot all the guards and don't miss your shots, because when you do you get shot a bunch and have to waste rations and end up bleeding all over the place. The Alert phase deprives you of your Soliton Radar, and the weapons and shooting controls aren't really good enough for you to easily deal with a lot of backup.
I agree that 4 was already going down the shooter route, with its millions of guns and unlimited ammo from Drebin's store, but you still had to deal with finite rations and the bizarre Psyche Gauge mechanics. I don't really have an argument for PW, since the gameplay is just so barebones and I really didn't like that game at all. Point is, even if they vary in quality of stealth mechanics, those games are all actual stealth games, and they all use several methods of making stealth gameplay much more viable than open combat. GZ doesn't. You get your magic 'I win' mechanic with Reflex Mode, or you turn it off and hope for the best. With no equivalent mechanics to the camo index, threat ring, or vision cones and footstep loudness on the Soliton Radar, you've got no real way to quantify exactly how stealthy you're being. You never quite know whether an enemy can see you until they've already seen you, and it can all be over in a fraction of a second with the instant Alert phase, at which point you whip out your assault rifle and play Gears of War. I absolutely think GZ is inferior to the older MGSes in terms of stealth mechanics.
snake_eater_raiden
Member
Hey Boss, [Sn4ke_911]
https://twitter.com/GreyDeLisle/status/562348309088444417
Team A
Grey DeLisle is the VA of Amanda, who is confirmed to be in TPP
https://twitter.com/GreyDeLisle/status/562348309088444417
Team A
Grey DeLisle is the VA of Amanda, who is confirmed to be in TPP
Ok I get your point, it basically gets down to being able to surpass the game without being stealthy. But I think that's great because there are players that are just not good with it and still want to experience the game. If you enjoy stealth game you can't possibly enjoy the radar or the marking system or the reflex mode, that takes the stealth away. " you've got no real way to quantify exactly how stealthy you're being" I'm sorry what?! No real way to quantify how stealthy you are? It's called realism and you use your common sense to measure how stealthy you are! If you're hidden between the bushes you're pretty stealthy, in the dark? Pretty stealthy, 50m away and crouched? Pretty stealthy! That's stealth! Using a radar with cones representing FOV of the enemies is not stealth, you can play just looking at the radar!
Hey Boss, [Sn4ke_911]
https://twitter.com/GreyDeLisle/status/562348309088444417
Team A
Grey DeLisle is the VA of Amanda, who is confirmed to be in TPP
Redbird ‏@TheDarkRedbird 21h21 hours ago
@GreyDeLisle @DavidBHayter Or Winter Soldier and Catwoman lol
I don't know why Hayter voicing Winter Soldier is so funny, but I can't get enough of it.
Hey Boss, [Sn4ke_911]
https://twitter.com/GreyDeLisle/status/562348309088444417
Team A
Grey DeLisle is the VA of Amanda, who is confirmed to be in TPP
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
It's silly to say regen breaks the game because it actually makes it harder, since at least in Hard difficulty 2 shots kill you, plus the enemies swarm you making escape almost impossible. It's the same as any Metal Gear, really, if you want true stealth then go for the harder difficultes.
And killing enemies is actively penalized in your end score, plus lethal weapons don't have infinite suppresors, so you'll be able to kill at least like 20 enemies before you run out and are inmediately discovered. The nonlethal weapon doesn't have this problem, in exchange for having to deal with the bullet drop.
And killing enemies is actively penalized in your end score, plus lethal weapons don't have infinite suppresors, so you'll be able to kill at least like 20 enemies before you run out and are inmediately discovered. The nonlethal weapon doesn't have this problem, in exchange for having to deal with the bullet drop.
Yeah, why do people like this kind of garbage?
Garbage? I will find your base and kill D.D.
You guys don't want to invade Dawg's game and steal all his sheep?
The stealth in GZ is great. Lots of freedom and lots of things you can do to distract people or mess with the environment. And it's only going to get better in TPP.
I understand the complaints on a certain level. But honestly, I don't need a stealth game to force me into stealth in order for me to consider it a good stealth game. I want a stealth game that makes stealth more fun and more satisfying than running and gunning, while giving me lots of options to facilitate that fun. That's what GZ does. Yeah, when all hell breaks loose you can salvage it. But I don't want to salvage it, because it feels bad getting caught and it's more fun to stealth it.
I understand the complaints on a certain level. But honestly, I don't need a stealth game to force me into stealth in order for me to consider it a good stealth game. I want a stealth game that makes stealth more fun and more satisfying than running and gunning, while giving me lots of options to facilitate that fun. That's what GZ does. Yeah, when all hell breaks loose you can salvage it. But I don't want to salvage it, because it feels bad getting caught and it's more fun to stealth it.
I want to do nothing but that.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
TheSpoiler
Member
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
Uh...
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Hey Boss, [Sn4ke_911]
https://twitter.com/GreyDeLisle/status/562348309088444417
Team A
Grey DeLisle is the VA of Amanda, who is confirmed to be in TPP
matrix-cat
Member
But realism isn't a problem when it comes to regenerating health, right?
Stealth games are inherently unrealistic. If realism was the goal then all the enemies would be able to see you as easily as you see them and you'd be caught immediately. You'd never make it past the first watchtower when the guy shines the spotlight on you, because lying down in the mud to become invisible sure as hell isn't realistic. The enemies in Ground Zeroes do have vision cones, they just aren't made visible to the player, so you're left to just eyeball it and hope for the best. Can that guy see me from here? I don't know, maybe? I guess I'll crawl, because crawling makes you harder to see in video games.
Good stealth games make it clear when you're hidden. Thief games had the Light Gem. Splinter Cell has that white circle that sharpens to a point when someone can see you. The Last of Us has the noise that increases in intensity when you're about to be spotted. Batman has gargoyles and enemies that don't look up. Dishonored has the marks that pop up over enemies' heads. MGS1 and 2 have the Soliton Radar, MGS3 and 4 have the camo index. Mark of the Ninja has visible vision cones and sound waves. Sly Cooper has enemies carrying lamps. The list goes on and on and on. Sure, they're unrealistic mechanics, but knowing whether or not a bad guy can see you is of pretty much paramount importance in a genre where you're supposed to not be seen. You have to know where the limits are so you can skirt around them, and you have to know when you're about to take it too far so you can back off and have another go.
Ground Zeroes doesn't have that. You're forced to rely on the game's notion of 'common sense', which I wouldn't call particularly realistic, and if you put a foot wrong you don't get a second chance. Instant Alert, everyone knows where you are; fight or run or reload the checkpoint. That sucks. And, like I said, it doesn't seem like they're fixing that in MGSV. All the MGSV gameplay demos I've seen clearly show that the moment an enemy spots you, every single enemy in the area knows about it through their magical telepathic link, and you pretty much just have to run away and abort the mission.
Anyway, it's obvious we all want different things from our stealth games, so I'm not going to keep banging on about it. I'm still going to buy MGSV day one and love the shit out of it, but I do seriously hope they improve the stealth mechanics over GZ's. If not, then I'll just enjoy the game for what it is: a fun third-person shooter where you can be stealthy if you choose to.
texhnolyze
Banned
I'm reposting my concern regarding the AI.
When a guard or patrol woke up after being knocked out or put to sleep, he just continue his routine, as he didn't remember or give a shit that someone has knocked him down earlier. Another one is that if a patrolling guard is missing, his friend should've been worried or at least on alert. Where is he? Why doesn't he guarding his post? Another obvious one would be the spotlight patrol missing. Why is the spotlight stop moving? What happened to the guy who's in charge?
Will the game become too difficult or impossible if it's to real?
When a guard or patrol woke up after being knocked out or put to sleep, he just continue his routine, as he didn't remember or give a shit that someone has knocked him down earlier. Another one is that if a patrolling guard is missing, his friend should've been worried or at least on alert. Where is he? Why doesn't he guarding his post? Another obvious one would be the spotlight patrol missing. Why is the spotlight stop moving? What happened to the guy who's in charge?
Will the game become too difficult or impossible if it's to real?
I'm really concerned about this game. I played Ground Zeroes and it just didn't feel like a MG game to me. No codec, no hayter, the interactions between enemies seemed off, (instant alarm? not able to shoot radio or anything) no quirky dialog, inconsistent sight lines.
To me, it felt like a re textured splinter cell knock-off. I really hope i'll like MGSV
To me, it felt like a re textured splinter cell knock-off. I really hope i'll like MGSV
LowParry
Member
I'm really concerned about this game. I played Ground Zeroes and it just didn't feel like a MG game to me. No codec, no hayter, the interactions between enemies seemed off, (instant alarm? not able to shoot radio or anything) no quirky dialog, inconsistent sight lines.
To me, it felt like a re textured splinter cell knock-off. I really hope i'll like MGSV
Well. You played a demo. What exactly did you expect?
brandonh83
Banned
I'm really concerned about this game. I played Ground Zeroes and it just didn't feel like a MG game to me. No codec, no hayter, the interactions between enemies seemed off, (instant alarm? not able to shoot radio or anything) no quirky dialog, inconsistent sight lines.
To me, it felt like a re textured splinter cell knock-off. I really hope i'll like MGSV
I had similar feelings at first, but they went away the more and more I played it. Now I simply feel like it's a great evolution of the series.
Love Deterrence
Member
I'm really concerned about this game. I played Ground Zeroes and it just didn't feel like a MG game to me. No codec, no hayter, the interactions between enemies seemed off, (instant alarm? not able to shoot radio or anything) no quirky dialog, inconsistent sight lines.
To me, it felt like a re textured splinter cell knock-off. I really hope i'll like MGSV
The only thing that worries me about MGSV is that it may be too good.
A demonstration of the game funnily enough.
Ultimately, yes.
AI needs to be smart and unique and able to do many things, but the player still needs to be able to manipulate it. They could add all those things you mentioned, and it wouldn't break the game, but it's also not necessary. If you screw something up, the guards will notice. If you do something right, even if it seems off as far as reality is concerned, they won't notice. It's a positive as far as the gameplay is concerned.
That's because the ration system and instantly regaining health in combat are just as dumb of features as regen health.
I recently played Chaos Theory HD, so I have that on my mind right now. In addition to not being able to take many bullets, each level had only one or two areas where you could replenish health (and even when you can, it happens in real-time and is a slow-moving process that leaves you vulnerable to attack... useless in combat). If you took a hit somewhere along the way, you had to deal with that until you could heal up. It makes things much more tense when you know that one bullet will kill you, and you face competent enemies.
Regen health will never be able to duplicate this effect.
themidnightsun156
Member
the way the levels are designed now enemies are within earshot of each other, so the way i look at it: if you get spotted by an enemy and he yells "contact" or "hostile" his friend hears it and calls it in, there is no telepathy, the guards have ears and when they hear their friend yell "contact" they run towards it
There could be a dating sim portion.
you'll be able to knit yourself a nice jumper.
420bits
Member
Im gonna fulton the shit out of everything, snakes, sheeps, horses, cars, boats, soldiers, basically, if its not attached to planet earth, I'm gonna fulton it! My base will just be a gigantic zoo
The regenerating health feels better than chugging 9-10 rations in a firefight automatically as you eat bullets.
atleast in GZ when you get shot you die pretty quickly. Unless you escape. Old MGS lets you rambo like crazy.
GZ is the best stealth game since Splinter Cell CT
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Man, people are split between regen health and medkits/rations.
Hmmm. MGS3 had some regenerating health as long as you were quite healthy. Maybe it was one of the first instances of health regenerating?(I'm not counting shields from Halo, although Halo 2 would have shields and then you'd have health underneath that would refresh when the shield did I think.).
Either way, the MGS series isn't new to regenerating health. It's evolved in a way that now rations aren't necessary-Like alot of posters said, it let you rambo easily when you had plenty, but it would also be annoying when you had none and were forced to look for one. It's a different type of gameplay, and well, regenerating health is different as well. Now, an open world game? Let's imagine for a second rations were needed. In an open world game, rations would be few and far, thus artificially increasing the difficulty because it would be out of the players control that those rations are few and far. Or you can put a ration every 5 feet in this case, but the fact is that MGSV is shaping up to be different from previous MGS' in terms of gameplay mechanics.
I don't mind the regenerating health. Just like I don't mind all the other changes this game is presenting from previous iterations. It's an evolution in the series, which in itself should be praised.
Hmmm. MGS3 had some regenerating health as long as you were quite healthy. Maybe it was one of the first instances of health regenerating?(I'm not counting shields from Halo, although Halo 2 would have shields and then you'd have health underneath that would refresh when the shield did I think.).
Either way, the MGS series isn't new to regenerating health. It's evolved in a way that now rations aren't necessary-Like alot of posters said, it let you rambo easily when you had plenty, but it would also be annoying when you had none and were forced to look for one. It's a different type of gameplay, and well, regenerating health is different as well. Now, an open world game? Let's imagine for a second rations were needed. In an open world game, rations would be few and far, thus artificially increasing the difficulty because it would be out of the players control that those rations are few and far. Or you can put a ration every 5 feet in this case, but the fact is that MGSV is shaping up to be different from previous MGS' in terms of gameplay mechanics.
I don't mind the regenerating health. Just like I don't mind all the other changes this game is presenting from previous iterations. It's an evolution in the series, which in itself should be praised.
That's because it's a better game than all of the others you listed.
Rogue Agent
Banned
At night, there are visual indicators such as lens flares and flashlights. Also, regardless of day and night, there is a musical cues if a guard suspects something and a visual indicator to help you make a decision if a guard is close to spotting you. Lastly, the camo index is still there, but this time you just need to rely on the environment such as hiding in the grass, etc.
So these are all the assists available in GZ. By using these with the marking system and other tools to cause diversions and distractions, stealth has been a dream. At least, in my experience.
Cipher Cat
Banned
What's this unit called?
Shocking Skulls?
Shocking Skulls?
That is just a logo of hand module that can shock enemies. Kojima already showcased it in Africa demo.
Cipher Cat
Banned
I know that, though you can create your own logo for your base.
Considering he has a Diamond Dogs patch on his shoulder I don't think the invasion names come up in the game outside of the invasions.
Yeah, but those unit names have their own sleeve patch which replace the DD patch on Big Boss.
There are some screen shots floating around where you see this.
Edit:
Stereogatari
Banned
Well said, I agree completely and now you've got me wondering whether MGS5 will have a "game over if alert" mode?
GreyOcelot
Member
Berserker976
Member
Ok, wait. Hold up.
Did you just say that Ground Zeroes is a better game than:
The entire Thief series
The entire Splinter Cell series
The Last of Us
The entire Batman series
Dishonored
MGS1
MGS2
MGS3
MGS4
&
Mark of the Ninja
Because if you did, I think we may have found the world's first scientifically provable wrong opinion.
We can say that they're different styles of stealth, and GZ is going for realistic stealth instead of "arcady" stealth
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
MGSGZ certainly isn't realistic stealth
-with tranq darts that take a while to take effect unless it's specifically a headshot
-with enemies that stay down if you hold them up and tell them to get down
-with the suppressors that stop working after a single clip
-telepathic enemies,(one guy saw you so now everyone knows)
etc
swearing-circle
Member
Just throwing my two cents into the whole regen vs health bar. Personally, regen health works fine in my opinion as you die relatively quickly and of course if you take too much damage you have to rely on the healing spray which completely leaves you open to attack.
The previous MGS games have always been OTT in how much damage you could take if you had rations equipped although, in MGS2 you'd still die pretty quickly due to the enemies being relatively lethal. Especially, the guards wielding shotguns/shields.
But I digress, I feel that Ground Zeroes has the best stealth in the series since MGS2. I much prefer line of site as opposed to camo index as I find it requires more skill from the player. Plus, I feel like Ground Zeroes retains the fun factor of being able to mess around with the game mechanics and as a result I've put over 25 hours into the game just mucking about with guards, using explosives to blow me out of boundaries etc. It definitely doesn't stray from the typical MGS formula and reflex mode is essentially the same as shooting out guards radios albeit slightly easier.
I love MGS3 but I personally felt like all the menus detracted from the flow of the game and that's why I love MGS2 and GZ so much.
The only real qualms I have with GZ are guards popping in and out which is really bad for a stealth game and guards spotting you from around a corner. Nevertheless, these things are infrequent so it doesn't really bother me.
The previous MGS games have always been OTT in how much damage you could take if you had rations equipped although, in MGS2 you'd still die pretty quickly due to the enemies being relatively lethal. Especially, the guards wielding shotguns/shields.
But I digress, I feel that Ground Zeroes has the best stealth in the series since MGS2. I much prefer line of site as opposed to camo index as I find it requires more skill from the player. Plus, I feel like Ground Zeroes retains the fun factor of being able to mess around with the game mechanics and as a result I've put over 25 hours into the game just mucking about with guards, using explosives to blow me out of boundaries etc. It definitely doesn't stray from the typical MGS formula and reflex mode is essentially the same as shooting out guards radios albeit slightly easier.
I love MGS3 but I personally felt like all the menus detracted from the flow of the game and that's why I love MGS2 and GZ so much.
The only real qualms I have with GZ are guards popping in and out which is really bad for a stealth game and guards spotting you from around a corner. Nevertheless, these things are infrequent so it doesn't really bother me.